You sure that Vietnam has unique units that would be rifles or cannons? When did guns come to Southeast Asia as a common form of weapon? I'd rather see them with a partisan type unit that gets extra movement points or maybe the ability to retreat when behind enemy lines.Originally Posted by SlickSlicer
I'd like to suggest Armenia since I went off about it on the Inuit civilization lobbyist group.
Armenia
Leader: Tigranes the Great
UA: Illumination - Better conversion rates for missionaries (St. Gregory the Illuminator oversaw the baptism of the Armenian leadership and the adoption of the first national church in the world)
UU: Azatavrear - A ranged heavy Cataphract type unit with good defense against melee units.
UB: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Church - Building like a Church or Cathedral but with added faith
Vietnam was further ahead of the game than people give them credit for.
The fire lance was actually more like a prototype for the gun than a cannon, but for gameplay purposes I thought it would be more interesting for Vietnam to have a cannon replacement, which are few compared to musketman/rifleman replacements (musketman/riflemen replacements are too common in Civ V).
Here's some information for you from Sun Laichen's essay Chinese Gunpowder Technology and Dai Viet ca. 1390-1497. Taken from Vietnam: Borderless Histories.
tl;dr:
-The Vietnamese made the best fire lances. Their particular use of wooden wads in their manufacture extended the range of a fire lance. Moreover, it had applications for handguns as well. Vietnamese craftsmen helped create these weapons for the Ming.
-The Chinese gave some technological techniques to the Vietnamese, but Vietnamese technology also was exported to China.
-The Vietnamese were early adopters of gunpowder warfare (relatively speaking). The quantity of their firearms increased tremendously once they drove Ming invaders out of their country.
The long bit:
"[There is an issue] between China and Vietnam over who borrowed gunpowder technology from whom. This involves the well-known but highly puzzling passage in the Ming shi (History of the Ming dynasty): "When it came to the time of Ming Chengzu [Yongle], Jiaozhi (Chinese name for Vietnam) was pacified, the techniques of magic gun and cannon were obtained; a firearms battalion was especially established to drill firearms." This has led to the popular belief that the Chinese, through their invasion of Dai Viet in 1406-7, acquired firearms technology from the Vietnamese."
Sun Laichen argues that the exchange of gunpowder technology between Vietnam and China was mutual--each side contributed to the other's knowledge. Some other interesting bits:
"In 1390, the powerful Cham king Che Bong Nga was killed by a volley of huochong in a naval battle [against Dai Viet]. This weapon has long been widely understood as a cannon, but it was more plausibly a handgun."
Che Bong Nga, a king of Champa, had invaded Vietnam several times and sacked the capital, Thang Long (iirc), a number of times. But the combination of one of his subordinates defecting, as well as the handguns, allowed Dai Viet to defeat him. In this particular case, the traitor informed Dai Viet of where Che Bong Nga's ship was. The Vietnamese soldiers launched a handgun volley at this ship and assassinated Che Bong Nga, thus reversing the war between Vietnam and Champa.
Commenting on the later Ming invasion of Dai Viet, which led to the occupation of Vietnam by China for a couple decades, Sun Laichen notes:
"Although the Vietnamese were familiar with gunpowder technology and had employed firearms since [at least] 1390, this weaponry must have been inferior in both quality (with one to two exceptions) and especially quantity vis-a-vis Chinese weapons."
Though the war started very much in Ming's favor, it gradually changed course. The Vietnamese hero Le Loi fought a valiant resistance against the Ming, and through successful ambushes and military victories, he was able to capture large numbers of firearms, especially after the Battle of Ninh-kieu. It is also noted by Sun Laichen that, "In addition, Ming captives and defectors also provided the Vietnamese with military technology. Around February 1427, some Ming captives provided the Vietnamese with techniques for attacking walls, models for protective shelters, primitive tanks, flying horse carts and Muslim (counterweighted) catapults."
However, the technological exchange was a two-way street, and this is the important part. Sun Laichen notes:
"It should be noted that Dai Viet not only imported military technology from but also exported better techniques to China. After the conquest of Dai Viet in 1407, the Ming acquired from the Vietnamese a weapon called shen qiang, shen qiang jian, or shenji huoqiang, meaning literally "magic fire-lance arrow." This fire lance was better than its Chinese counterpart because of one unique feature: it had a heavy wooden wad (mu ma zi in Chinese) made of ironwood behind the arrow to increase pressure within the barrel. The arrow could, therefore, be shot as far as three hundred paces. Indeed, Chinese sources inform us that the fire lances made in Dai Viet were the best. Many Chinese soldiers were probably killed by this Vietnamese weapon during the Chinese invasion. Since ironwood was readily available in Dai Viet as well as Guangdong, Guangxi and Yunnan, it is possible that the Vietnamese employed this indigenous resource to invent the wooden wad to increase the shooting range of the fire lance. This technique was adopted in China for handguns by 1415; a Ming handgun made in this year had a wooden wad between gunpowder and bullets, while the handguns prior to this time did not have this salient feature. [This is evidence of the transfer of technology from Dai Viet to Ming China].
Moreover from at least 1410 onward the igniting device of the handguns was improved by replacing the small hole where a fuse was inserted with a rectangular, lidded slot on the rear of the barrel. This feature made it easier to ignite the gunpowder, because the slot and the lid prevented the gunpowder and the fuse from getting wet when it rained. Evidence suggests that the Vietnamese may have invented this device. First, no handgun with this improved igniting device existed until after the Ming invasion of Dai Viet. Second, the tropical climate in Dai Viet, with great humidity and the long rainy season, may have encouraged this invention. Among the six Vietnamese handguns at the Viet Nam History Museum, three of them have such an ignition device."
The Chinese imported this firearms technology from Vietnam. Moreover, it also captured numerous craftsmen and weaponsmiths from Vietnam. These helped the Chinese manufacture firearms utilizing certain Vietnamese techniques and innovations previously unknown to the Chinese. Sun Laichen notes for example, "The Vietnamese fire lance was put to good use. One Chinese source states that when the Yongle Emperor fought the Mongols, 'they had just got the fire lance (shen qiang) from Annam; one barbarian marched straight forward, and two followed; they were all hit by the fire lance and died.' Teng Zhao, the vice minister of the Ministry of War during the reign of Chenghua (1465-87) commented: 'We basically rely on the fire lance (shen qiang) to defeat enemies and win victories. From Yongle to Xuangde, the fire lance was properly drilled and was most feared by the Mongols.' In 1449, after the Ming suffered the Tumu debacle, more than 28,000 handguns and 440,000 fire lances were collected from the battle scene. The point that concerns us here is that these handguns and fire lances must have had Vietnamese techniques."
In the 15th century, Vietnamese military victories were nothing short of incredible. They conquered nearly all of Champa and then proceeded to march up and down Southeast Asia, reaching as far as the Irawaddy River. In the process, they mobilized large armies equipped with firearms, according to Sun Laichen.
Last edited by SlickSlicer; 05-21-2012 at 04:38 PM.
Nice. Thanks that was pretty interesting actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tigranocerta
I'd push for more Seleucid Empire or Parthia.
I’d like to help with the suggestion for Brazil:
I guess a cultural boost during the “We love the King day” would fare better than a bonus duration, as it already lasts for 20 turns. Also, the cultural bonus would have its historical analogies, and is arguably more useful and fun.
The Bandeirantes are far more relevant than the Dragoons. Radu, Marduk and other posters made extensive explanations and suggestions about them earlier in this thread, so I'm going to quote them:UU: Independence dragoons . Replaces Lancer . Has +1 sight and doesn't have defense penalties,unlike Lancers .
About the UB:
I don’t think there is any relationship between the Carnival and Luxury Resources. Rather, it’s a nationwide party, attracts large crowds, so this would be my suggestion:
UB: Sambodrome. Replaces Theatre; Maintenance: -2 Gold. +3 Happiness, +1 Culture for every 4 Citizens in the City.
The proposed UB and UA would give Brazil a cultural edge; the UA would impel the player to strive for the demanded Luxury Resources, either by trading or by war with the help of the Bandeirante UU and the lessened penalties from unhappiness. It'd be different and interesting, I guess.
That idea for the bandeirantes was kinda borrowed from me. Just sayin'
You guys may really want to drill down into what makes Brazil unique. Is having a party atmosphere really the axis around which Brazil turns? I would like to incorporate biodiversity mysel, although I guess Brazil still struggles with the destruction of that resource for exploitation purposes. The bandeirantes lend themselves more to the concept of exploitation.
My idea is not to have too many culture-oriented bonus,as the UB already gives a culture bonus,but your suggestion to complement the UA makes more sense .
The only problem with Bandeirantes is that they've been only used before the Independence . They weren't used during,neither after the Independence,unlike Independence Dragoons,which were used in the short Independence war of Brazil and briefly used in Cisplatine war .
Sambodromes would represent indirectly many annual festivals that happen in Brazil which isn't always related to Carnival(The Folklore Festival of Parintins in the Amazon is a good example of it) . Also,Sambodrome is much more related to music arts than drama/essay arts,which is the reason why replacing Opera house makes more sense than replacing Theathe . And the bonus for yielding luxury resources would indirectly represent the strengh of Carnival in areas and cities who profited or profit with some kind of luxury resource . In the case of Parintins,they have profited with the exploration of Rubber since the 19th century(although Rubber hasn't been promoted to a luxury resource in Civ5) .
Last edited by luciferkid; 05-22-2012 at 12:12 PM.
The party atmosphere is just a inspiration for the UB . For the UA,I'd rather pick up something that reflects the fact that there would have a Civil war right after the Independence that it would tear apart the newly country into many other countries,just like what happened in Gran colombia,but such division of the country didn't happen . That's where my suggestion came from .
Well, Brazil is one of those countries that I'd like to see in a future expansion for up-and-coming modern nations. Such an expansion could include domestic crises that threaten a civil war, such as civil war, pollution, crime, terrorism, employment, and so forth, but we don't really have that reflected in the current game. There's unhappiness, but that's basically just a problem with overgrowth and warmongering.
I was actually thinking they'd make an expansion like that as well, and maybe add scenarios like the Cold War as well as, perhaps, alliance victories (which you could toggle on/off).
Okay, it could replace the Opera House, but I really think the happiness bonus should be included somehow. The “+1 Culture for every 4 Citizens” would directly represent the popularity of the Carnival, and would award a populous empire (Brazil ranks 5th in population). The relationship between luxury resources and the event is a very indirect one. I concur that luxury booms such as the Rubber in the Amazon, Gold in the Minas and Coffee in Sao Paulo have a strong cultural impact, but we could leave that for the UA (the cultural boom in the WLtK Day).
Right now the UA we suggested incorporates a lot of things: Population growth; importance of the luxury resources; the regional impact of this in the culture; and the fact that Brazil didn’t end up fragmented by regional uprisings as did his neighbors. I think it’s a fair UA.
In practical terms, biodiversity doesn’t mean that much to Brazil as well. Bonus from jungles and this kind of thing wouldn’t be nice, especially when most of Brazilians live far away from Amazon.
A Biofuel related UB or UI would be nice, but would pose problems to the gameplay (it’d come too late in the tech tree). A carnival related building is better; after all, it’s a famous Brazilian feature.
I’m sorry, you’re right. But back then they were suggested as a Portuguese UU, which doesn’t make any sense.
Yeah, but I think Brazil’s history doesn’t start in the Independence. Miscegenation and syncretism created a very different people, and while the Portuguese were in full control of the colony during the Sugar Cycle in the Northeast, when the economic axis shifted to the Southeast (Gold and Coffee) that was no longer true. The Bandeirantes play a role in this, as one of the first typically Brazilian characters, finding Gold, expanding the Borders etc. The Dragoons don’t have any practical meaning; also, Brazil lost the Cisplatine (Uruguay), and the Independence movement was rather pacific.
Makes perfect sense. The bandeirantes worked for the Portuguese empire, not the independent nation of Brazil.
If Portugal were in the game, Brazil and cities could easily be part of its empire. And even if Brazil was a civ unto itself, by the time Brazil became an independent nation, the bandeirantes were no more. Making them part of Brazil is kind of like making the redcoats part of America.
Makes perfect sense. The bandeirantes worked for the Portuguese empire, not the independent nation of Brazil.
If Portugal were in the game, Brazil and cities could easily be part of its empire. And even if Brazil was a civ unto itself, by the time Brazil became an independent nation, the bandeirantes were no more. Making them part of Brazil is kind of like making the redcoats part of America.
Brazil suffers from the same problem as other up-and-comer nations like Canada: there are no uniques for it to have until after the industrial era.
The UA reduces unhappiness penalties. Clearly, that only has value when the city is unhappy. Meahwhile, you're talking about including festive stuff like the sambodome that provide a boost to happiness, and co-opting the bandeirantes whose job is to go out claim luxury resources. Their is a conflict in design here.Right now the UA we suggested incorporates a lot of things: Population growth; importance of the luxury resources; the regional impact of this in the culture; and the fact that Brazil didn’t end up fragmented by regional uprisings as did his neighbors. I think it’s a fair UA.
Reducing unhappiness penalties is more appropriate to a grim, no-frills civ, like Assyria. Seems to me you'd do better to go with the festive element. For instance, borrow a note from my design for Majapahit and its Wayang Kulit unique national wonder. Replace the Circus Maximus national wonder with Carnival or something like that.
Last edited by steveg700; 05-22-2012 at 05:07 PM.
Brazilian cities in the Portuguese city list would be like Hispanic American cities in Spain's list, or American (and Caribbean, African, Asian, essentially cities from all around the world) in England's. Even Rio de Janeiro, once the capital of the Portuguese Empire for a short time, would look weird in the Portuguese list.
And I don't think the Redcoats is a reasonable example. It's heavily and almost exclusively associated with the British, while the Bandeirantes is heavily and exclusively associated with Brazil. There is a huge amount of Bandeirantes monuments, statues and paintings in Brazil, and a lot of palaces, highways and places named after them. Their importance for Brazil is very clear. Could you say the same about the redcoats and America?
Anyway, this was already discussed in this very thread:
Doing some search in the google.pt and google.com.br, I'm not even sure the Portuguese give any importance to the Bandeirantes... So If you want to say that any pre-Independence element should not be included as Brazilian unique features in an eventual future civ, I wouldn't understand, since it wouldn't be the first asynchronous feature in Civ V, but I'd be okay with that. Now if you want to say that the Bandeirantes should be a Portuguese UU and Brazilians cities could be easily in Portugal's list, then I have to say that it doesn't make sense.
I do agree with you in this point, but I think the Sambodrome is fine as it is. The UA, especially the unhappiness element, could be re-worked, even at expense of the historical significance.
I could easily see Bandeirantes being a Portuguese UU personally. They were used by the Portuguese, even if they are mainly associated with Brazil. Civ V has shown little concern over marginal associations anyways--consider Denmark's ski infantry or Sweden's hakkapellita (which do work for Sweden, but could arguably be considered more Finnish).
Doesn't Portugal have better Unique features (which are indeed unique to them)? I can't see how the Bandeirantes could replace the Feitorias and the Carracks/Naus.
That's probably true. I could also see the case you laid out for including them with Brazil. What doesn't work for me is being so attached to the one idea that you say giving the bandeirantes to Portugal "doesn't make sense". Sometimes in design, you have to kill your babies.
What can a father say to his beloved child? (j/k). The history of "Bandeiras" is one of the major themes of Brazilian history. Some historians have attempted to locate the birth of Brazilian nationalism in the exploration process by the Bandeirantes.were Bandeirantes more important for the history of Portugal or for the history of Brazil?
Anyway,
Nation and nationalism based on the Brazilian experience- Carlos Lessa
"The formation of Brazil follows a political course radically different to the Hispano-American nations. Though it, too, derives from the context engendered by the European revolutionary wave, it is a Lusitanian replica wholly divorced from its Enlightenment rhetoric and republican ideals. The National Brazilian Empire holds Luso-America together... With the transatlantic shift, the colony received the entire superstructure of the traditional Portuguese State, which settled itself upon the bureaucratic and legal framework already installed here...For the Empire, the creation and formation of nationality imposed the construction of an official history as an explicit task of the State. Hence the foundation of the IHGB - Instituto Histórico e Geográfico Brasileiro (Brazilian Historical and Geographical Institute), with Pedro II himself presiding over sessions. In the second decade of independence the IHGB launched a competition to determine on which bases Brazilian history should be built. The winner was the German scientist Von Martius, who suggested combing the past for episodes of cooperation among the three races (Portuguese, Amerindian and African) that could illustrate the dreams of independent Brazil. It was Varnhagen that would cast the foundations of our official history in 1852, finding in the expulsion of the French and especially the Dutch the perfect example of cooperation among the three races. Portuguese sugar mill owners, rebelling against the Dutch West India Company's attempts to call in loans, enlisted Amerindians from the Jesuit Missions and African freemen in order to drive out the Dutch."
Well,for gameplay balance,I agree with you .
Brazil couldn't hold Cisplatine,because it was primarily colonized by the Spaniards,but it was taken by the Portuguese just before the Brazil's Independence . During the Independence war(which was much more pacific than the Independence war of America),Brazil have attacked the Portuguese forces there and successfully took the Cisplatine,which was then,annexed to Brazilian territory . But Because of this cultural difference between Brazilians and the people from Cisplatin,there was a rebellion to separate from Brazil,from where the rebels got success . From the more than 10 separative attempts that happened after the Brazil's Independence,this was the only one who had success .
If they do this,they are showing that Brazil will never be promoted to Civilization in Civ5,because Portugal could represent them perfectly,in theory . But Portugal itself can never the whole diversity of Brazilian culture;
You're right. But I was only talking in theoretical terms anyways. I just disagree with the notion that Bandeirantes are an impossibility for Portugal. I would not mind seeing both Portugal and Brazil, each with their own diverse unique features, however. I feel that Bandeirantes could work as a UU for either one. Admittedly, if they added it to Portugal it would make Brazil less likely. On the other hand, people didn't expect Sweden either.If they do this,they are showing that Brazil will never be promoted to Civilization in Civ5,because Portugal could represent them perfectly,in theory . But Portugal itself can never the whole diversity of Brazilian culture;
Talking about Vietnam, for those interested,
The Portuguese "discovered" Vietnam in 1516, when they sailed from Malacca to China. Cochinchina, was named by the Portuguese for the region at a mouth of Mekong river, then referring to the South part of Vietnam, under the control of the Nguyen lord line. They named it "Cochim-China" to distinguish from Cochim in India, the Portuguese first headquarters in the Malabar coast.
---
Relations between Vietnam and Portugal in the 17th century,Pham Van Huong, University of Bordeaux,
"Since the beginning of the 16th century, the relations between most European countries and the Far East intensify everywhere according to an unchangeable chronological diagram: the arrival of Christian missionaries, then of cannons and some merchants. The relations between Vietnam and Portugal are of a very different character,
"..During their stay in Vietnam, the Jesuits Amaral and Barbosa, with the aid of local Vietnamese followers, undertook an immense work while using the Latin alphabet, transcribing phonetically the Vietnamese terms and share the task to write the first dictionaries. G. do Amaral is in charge of the Vietnamese-Portuguese-Latin dictionary and A. Barbosa the Portuguese-Vietnamese-Latin dictionary.
The modern Vietnamese writing was then born and carried the name of chu quoc ngu, literally "writing of the national language".
Inside this dictionary, the Vietnamese writing carries the Portuguese marks, which are not easily adopted by someone of another country.
Terms designating days of the week also have a Portuguese origin; Monday for example translates itself in Vietnamese as thu hai, the second; Tuesday translates itself as thu ba, the third.
Only in Portuguese, Monday designates itself by feria segundo and Tuesday by feria tertio and so on... In all other languages, French, English,... Monday counts itself as "first" day of the week, Tuesday the "second" day etc... This reference to the Holy Writings is particular to Portugal, and by way of consequence, to the Vietnamese writing.
The Portuguese Francisco de Pina, Antonio Barbosa and Gaspar do Amaral created the modern Vietnamese writing, chu quoc ngu. I would like to give back them homage and to express my deep recognition.
Hoi-an has been therefore chosen by Portugese merchants to establish their first counters. It is also at Hoi-an where the Portuguese constructed houses in hard during the period spreading 1600 to 1646. Most these houses of Portuguese style of the 17th century stay almost intact until our days. Nowadays, several Portugueses come to Hoi-an as tourists, ignoring that their forefathers stayed here, and some of them, as Amaral and Barbosa, let here works of inestimable values"
---
This is the stuff of History.
Very true. Portugal had a huge impact on Vietnam. Not as great an impact as the French, perhaps, but significant nonetheless. At one point, Gia Long even promised to give the Portuguese a fortress at Vung Tau in exchange for military assistance. It never happened, but it might have changed colonial history slightly if it had. Several Portuguese served in his court anyways. Portuguese missionaries and traders were active in Southern Vietnam for many years as well.Talking about Vietnam, for those interested,
The Portuguese "discovered" Vietnam in 1516, when they sailed from Malacca to China. Cochinchina, was named by the Portuguese for the region at a mouth of Mekong river, then referring to the South part of Vietnam, under the control of the Nguyen lord line. They named it "Cochim-China" to distinguish from Cochim in India, the Portuguese first headquarters in the Malabar coast.
---
Relations between Vietnam and Portugal in the 17th century,Pham Van Huong, University of Bordeaux,
"Since the beginning of the 16th century, the relations between most European countries and the Far East intensify everywhere according to an unchangeable chronological diagram: the arrival of Christian missionaries, then of cannons and some merchants. The relations between Vietnam and Portugal are of a very different character,
"..During their stay in Vietnam, the Jesuits Amaral and Barbosa, with the aid of local Vietnamese followers, undertook an immense work while using the Latin alphabet, transcribing phonetically the Vietnamese terms and share the task to write the first dictionaries. G. do Amaral is in charge of the Vietnamese-Portuguese-Latin dictionary and A. Barbosa the Portuguese-Vietnamese-Latin dictionary.
The modern Vietnamese writing was then born and carried the name of chu quoc ngu, literally "writing of the national language".
Inside this dictionary, the Vietnamese writing carries the Portuguese marks, which are not easily adopted by someone of another country.
Terms designating days of the week also have a Portuguese origin; Monday for example translates itself in Vietnamese as thu hai, the second; Tuesday translates itself as thu ba, the third.
Only in Portuguese, Monday designates itself by feria segundo and Tuesday by feria tertio and so on... In all other languages, French, English,... Monday counts itself as "first" day of the week, Tuesday the "second" day etc... This reference to the Holy Writings is particular to Portugal, and by way of consequence, to the Vietnamese writing.
The Portuguese Francisco de Pina, Antonio Barbosa and Gaspar do Amaral created the modern Vietnamese writing, chu quoc ngu. I would like to give back them homage and to express my deep recognition.
Hoi-an has been therefore chosen by Portugese merchants to establish their first counters. It is also at Hoi-an where the Portuguese constructed houses in hard during the period spreading 1600 to 1646. Most these houses of Portuguese style of the 17th century stay almost intact until our days. Nowadays, several Portugueses come to Hoi-an as tourists, ignoring that their forefathers stayed here, and some of them, as Amaral and Barbosa, let here works of inestimable values"
---
This is the stuff of History.
I did not know that Portugal significantly influenced Vietnamese writing, though. That's very interesting.
I disagree with you . Portugal will surely appear as a dlc in the future,just like Zulu . About Brazil,they only have a chance to appear in expansions,due to the fact that there's no worthy scenario to put them .
Sorry, it's completely false. During the golden rush, immigration to Brazil from Portugal increased dramatically.Even wiki knows,
"Unlike Spain, Portugal did not divide its colonial territory in America. The captaincies created there were subordinated to a centralized administration in Salvador which reported directly to the Crown in Lisbon. The 18th century was marked by increasing centralization of royal power throughout the Portuguese empire, with the power of the Jesuits, protective of the Indians against slavery, brutally suppressed by the Marquis of Pombal, leading to the dissolution of this religious order under ground Portuguese in 1759"
Even wiki knows,
" ..In the words of Simão Ferreira Machado, in Triunfo Eucarístico, published in Lisbon in 1734, "half of Portugal was transplanted" to Brazil at that time.Official estimates - and most estimates made so far - place the number of Portuguese migrants to Colonial Brazil during the gold rush of the XVIII century at 600,000. Though not usually studied, this represented one of the largest movements of European populations to their colonies to the Americas during the colonial times. Between 1748 and 1756.. from the Azores Islands arrived in Santa Catarina, located in the Southern Region of Brazil....also settled in Rio Grande do Sul.The majority of those colonists, composed of small farmers and fishermen, settled along the litoral of those two states and founded the cities of Florianópolis and Porto Alegre. Unlike previous trends, in the south entire Portuguese families came to seek a better life for themselves, not just men. During this period, the number of Portuguese women in Brazil increased, which resulted in a larger white population. This was especially true in Southern Brazil"
"In addition to Colonia de Sacramento, several settlements were established in Southern Brazil in the late 17th and 18th century, some with peasants from the Azores Islands. The towns founded in this period include Curitiba (1668), Florianópolis (1675), Rio Grande (1736), Porto Alegre (1742) and others, and helped keep Southern Brazil firmly under Portuguese control"
--
Late Colonial Brazil, History of Portuguese Empire, A. Disney, volume two, page 297,
"A North American-style seizure of independence could not be realistically comtemplated, because Brazil lacked the leaders, the organisation ans the mass support base necessary for such an undertanking"
I hope this helps.
Last edited by Homero; 05-24-2012 at 11:43 AM.
I believe there needs to be more Native American Representation. Why not the Pueblo Civilization.
Capital: Taos
Leader: Pope (Po-pay)
UA: Pueblo Revolt - If any Pueblo city is conquered you get 3 of the most powerful units possible respective to your era or tech level outside of the conquered city.
UU: ? (Someone mind helping with this)
I'm sorry, that was a bad choice of words. What I meant had more to do with the genesis and development of the Brazilian identity; the Sugar Economy in the Northeast was essentially driven by a Portuguese elite. When the gold was discovered by the Bandeiras in the Southeast it attracted immigrants not only from Portugal, but also from the Northeast - generally free but poor men of mixed ancestry, fleeing from the decadent Sugar Plantations (the Dutch began to cultivate sugar in the Antilles after the invasion, breaking the Portuguese monopoly and the Brazilian economy).Sorry, it's completely false. During the golden rush, immigration to Brazil from Portugal increased dramatically.
Initially, it was relatively easy to find Gold (you may know it as 'Ouro de Aluvião'), so anyone could do it. The Portuguese that immigrated wasn't rich as the colonial elite, and just like those Brazilians from the Northeast it's reasonable to question their "loyalty" to Portugal and all those taxes imposed by the Crown. Also, the Minas region is away from the coast and the ports. My point is: Portugal couldn't control everything that happened in it's colony anymore. The Minas, with all those immigrants - Portuguese, 'Brazilians', Africans (I forgot about them, but the slaves had great chances to buy their freedom there.) - was a melting pot.
That's a change from the Sugar Economy, firmly controlled by the Portuguese. Cities flourished there (as did the arts, see Aleijadinho for instance, the son of a Portuguese and a Slave) and the social gatherings would give place to pro-Independence movements. Tiradentes is a Brazilian national hero and character, as is the Bandeirantes, as is Aleijadinho etc.
This is absolutely true, but you are talking about Southern Brazil, I'm talking about Southeastern. It's completely different. And I believe there was a lack of women in the Minas (which is natural to a Gold Rush). Poor slaves. I can look for a reliable source later, but I believe miscegenation in the Minas was actually stronger.
I do not agree. There was indeed a lack of organisation; mind the Atlantic Forest and the "Serra do Mar" alongside the coast, and the sudden economic shift from the Northeast to the Southeast: that makes no good for a colony infrastructure and integration. But that doesn't mean there wasn't a Brazilian identity or history (which was my point). In fact, there were several pro-Independence movements, but they were scattered due to the lack of infrastructure, not the lack of leaders or mass support.
Long story short: I do expect to see both Portugal and Brazil in the game, and I'd be disappointed if they were included as a single civ. In our big and diverse world, Brazil and Portugal are fairly similar to each other, but in a game with Sweden and Denmark, Germany and Austria, they couldn't be more different, and that difference doesn't start with the Independence.
We have had them in polls before, and they never do well. I agree that we need more Native American representation, but I'm going mainly for the Sioux, and also in support of the Inuit, so that's two more if they both get in.
I'd re-think that UA of yours. Maybe something that helps before you are conquered?
What is interest about your comment is that this seems to be one of the two reasons about why so many regional uprisings have failed during the short 190 years of the existance of Brazil . The other reason mentioned is related to the support of the white minority to the Crown,because it was the only way the white minority have found to avoid a massive uprising from the slaves . Unlike USA,where the population of the slaves was always a minority,in Brazil,the population of the slaves were much bigger and any major uprising from them could easily tear the whole country apart . No wonder why both Emperors of the Brazil(Pedro I and his son,Pedro II) were abolitionist .
Can't agree more with you .
I noticed you don't have Kongo or Benin on the list of African civs...Could you at least add Kongo please? They have been discussed quite a bit, and someone made a mod for them a while back.
The Sioux are my favourite civ idea not in the game, so I really want to focus on working out their stats here, especially since I'm not completely happy with what's listed above.Sioux
Capital: Sioux Falls
Leader: Red Cloud (1822 - 1909)
UA: Buffalo Dance. Cattle, Deer, and Sheep provide +1 productivity and +1 food.
UU: Dog Soldier. Replaces Pikeman. Starts with Open Terrain 3 (only if there is a Totem pole in the city) and Drill 1. Strength 12, not 10. Cost 130, not 100.
UB: Totem Pole. Replaces Monument. +1 culture, not 2. Cost 70, not 60. Maintenance 1. ranged units (including sea and air) receive two Promotions.
(Land - Open Terrain 1 & 2, Sea - Targeting 1 & 2, Air - Siege 1 & 2)
Alternate
Leader: Sitting Bull (1831 - 1890)
UU: Deerfoot. Replaces Archer. Strength: 5. Ranged Strength: 7. Range: 2. Movement: 2 (+1 in Open Terrain.). Note: This unique Sioux Archery unit gets +1 in Combat and Ranged Combat strength. Additionally +1 movement in the Open Terrain only.
UU: Raider. Replaces Lancer. Combat: 24. Movement: 5. Starts with Evasion(50) promotion. Has a higher combat strength and extra movement point.
UA: The Hunter's Way. All Cattle and Sheep worked by a City provide +1 Food, all Horses provide +1 Gold, and all Deer provide +1 Production.
What I want is a Horse Culture, which actually suits the Sioux really well, even though they only gained horses after the Europeans arrived in the Americas. They took to the horses so naturally, like a duck takes to water, like it was meant to be, and no Europeans showed them how to ride them either. This became their icon as well, and helped them win many battles against other tribes, and even the Europeans, so let's try to figure out a good horse UA for the Sioux!
Now the Mongols have a +1 movement to all mounted units, but that's ok since this is not what I had in mind for the Sioux. The Russians have double quantity to horses, which rules that out. The good news is I think no one else has a UA involving horses, so more thinking room for us, and that also means that there is room for another Horse Culture.
These are some ideas for the Sioux UA:
All mounted units are cheaper to buy and are built faster.
All mounted units train faster, thus receiving promotions faster.
Mounted units provide a combat bonus to other military units on adjacent tiles.
Allied City-States with horses provide double the amount of horses.
Mounted units receive a combat bonus on plains and grassland tiles.
All mounted units start with the withdrawing promotion (sorry, forgot what it's called).
What else can we brainstorm for the Sioux Horse Culture UA?
I like this one the best personally. It's something the Sioux (or the player, rather) would have to work for, while still conferring a sizable advantage. I'd say the promotions should be half the cost or something.All mounted units train faster, thus receiving promotions faster.
Yes, I have to say that of that list of UA ideas it's the one I'm probably favouring the most as well.
Just spoke to my brother about it, and he came up with a UA where horses give you culture points..."Horse Culture" get it? This strikes me as pretty cool, of done right, and I think it does fit in with the Sioux too, as horses really sparked the imaginations of the Sioux people.
I like your brother's idea as well, yeah. I feel like the two (faster promotions+horses provide culture) could be combined into one UA without being OP. The reason is because it would be heavily dependent on the Sioux's ability to acquire horse resources, which wouldn't make it too broken, imo.
I feel they should have a horse UU* as well. RON gave them repeating rifle horsemen. Those seemed cool to me.
*-derp. I meant UU rather than UA.
Last edited by SlickSlicer; 05-24-2012 at 09:03 PM.
How does it look combined?
Sioux
UA: Horse Culture - Horses provide culture. All mounted units gain promotions faster.
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Just read the above comment...Great minds think alike!
For the UU, I'm happy with the Raider as suggested above. The rifle horsemen would have the same ability anyway, as the Raider gets upgraded.
What should be the second UX? I don't really want two UUs. Are we going for the Totem poll idea, as that's more of a Tlingit building?
In regards to the leader choice...
Both Sitting Bull and Red Cloud are good choices, but I think I'm leaning more towards Red Cloud as the most appropriate leader. What does everyone else think?
Although I have no idea what kind of function it would have or what it would be replacing, one idea for a Sioux UB or UI is the "teepee/tipi." Though kind of stereotypical (like totem poles), it was actually used by great plains Native Americans like the Sioux.
My brother came up with another idea, it's for a UU/I: Medicineman hut, which is a UI that you pack or unpack and move along with your army. It can only use its ability if unpacked, and can only move while packed. It's ability is to heal rapidly a single unit that stays a turn on the UI while unpacked, but also can very slightly boost healing of units directly juxtaposed on adjacent tiles. It would even work outside your own territory.
This is very unique, and again makes sense to me. I think it's better than the Totem poll idea that is more of a Tlingit building anyway, and the Totem poll's ability doesn't make complete sense...Seems more like a cultural building, or a religious building than a military one, don't you think?
Medicineman hut would appear on the map as a tipi when unpacked, but would look like a travois when packed for movement.
Sounds like a very fun, creative and unique idea to me. I like it a lot.
You know, I think we've worked out an awesome set of stats for the Sioux!
I would like to push for a Cuban Civilization if I may, I'm not going to argue that they deserve it, but more or less that they would be fun.
Leader: Ernesto Guevara Lynch (Because I want him to be shut up)
UA: Revolutionary Spirit: All units that previously couldn't defend themselves now can, Units sent to city states get their twice as fast.
UU: guerrilla, replaces World War 2 Infantry: Bonus fighting in allied territory and city state territory. Can venture into territory of Civilization your not at war with and cause havoc.
UI: plantación, replaces plantation: Gives +2 Culture, and grants +2 gold.
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