When I have a patch list, I'll post it. As I said before - and that's always going to remain the same.Originally Posted by Zuzax
If you have any other questions or comments about this, PM me - but repeating the same thing here isn't good for the thread's readability.
Thanks.
@2K Elizabeth:
Same old 2K evasiveness as usual. 2K isn't going to change.
<shakes head> <face palm> .... I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Things have changed?? Not here....
Ok, I understand everyone's frustration and hesitance to be trusting, I really do, but think for a moment from Liz's position. Earlier, when the announcement was made that the development was being cancelled, there was outrage (and rightly so) and many of you pointed to issues that 2K had mentioned they were trying to fix calling them "broken promises" or "lies." Now, you are asking for Liz to list specific issues they are trying to fix before such fixes have been finalized. See how you're handing Liz a loaded gun and asking her to point it at her head with this one?
I don't condone 2K's decision to halt development for the PC, and I understand that it'll take a bit to rebuild a level of trust from the PC community after a stunt like that. However, you have to realize that making demands like these are unrealistic because if something were to go wrong it won't matter that the community demanded a patch list before it was finished knowing full well that the list was tentative, no it'd be 2K "lying" once again because they "promised" these fixes before they knew for sure they could follow through. See the vicious cycle here?
Yeah, I remember that when the announcement was first made, it was estimated that Protector Trials might be going to cert for December. Since that's not the case, now that I've finished Joe's Adventures, maybe I'll finally get a chance to play a bit more Fallout: New Vegas over the Christmas holidaysand will look forward to BioShock 2 DLC in the new year
This isn't evasiveness. What you are asking for does not exist yet.
@IllusionOfLife:
You are being silly. PAY ATTENTION. We are not asking for a final patch list. We are asking *what has been fixed so far**. Good developers keep a list of bugs to fix. When they get one fixed, they check it off. The project leader can walk into the room, ask for what has been fixed so far, and get an answer. Fans aren't asking for a final list, just bugs fixed so far. That should be an easy answer.
@2K Elizabeth:
As I said, 2K knows what has been fixed so far. You know fans aren't asking for a final list. You know what has been fixed so far.
Wow, I didn't know you had such an integral understanding of the process. Maybe you should be in charge, since you apparently have so much experience in the field.
(inb4 "I'm John Romero.")
@Crezth:
Over the years, many companies have done a "behind the scenes" discussion or videos. One of the things they have mentioned is maintaining a list of bugs to be fixed and a list of bugs fixed. This seems to be the standard. I assume 2K does the same thing.
A problem that was mentioned with the vending machine voices was that messing around with files in one area turned the sounds off in the machines. To fix it required a cascade of changes for each level rather than from a central process. Instead of simply resorting to fixing hte problem, they would have had to repackage the whole game to fix it.
Now, if we assume that can happen again with any of the fixes they are attempting, you can understand that there may be a reason behind why they do not want to give an "in progress" or "already sorted" patch list before it happens. Things could go wrong and, like Illusion was saying, the phrase "you guys are liars" will be thrown up immediately.
I will admit this is speculation on my part (I don't work for 2K - just a volunteer moderator) but part of me thinks that the system Bioshock 2 is running on isn't as easy to mess with as people think it is, hence why Liz and the team don't want to commit to fixing "problem x, y and z" before they have actually fixed them so that they will stay working.
Now, I'm going to close this post with another warning NOT to start sniping at each other please. Things are very tense in this thread, and I'm sure we don't want it to devolve into a "I'm more peeved than you" contest. As I said before, everyone is in the same boat here - do not start sniping at your fellow fans and forum members.
Last edited by Codex; 12-15-2010 at 01:52 PM. Reason: AAAAAAH WRONG WORD
@Codex:
With vending machine sounds programmed that way, that is a very bad design. Common sense should have told the programmers "Wow! If we do it that way, to fix it we would have to repackage the game!". If the rest of the game is programmed that way, then 2K has some of the worst programmers.
That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that was how it was explained to us way back when the vending machine issue was noticed (a week or so before game release). Simply put, I was using it as an example for why your demands probably won't be met until the final patch notes are posted. Not saying it's a good or a bad thing, just trying to shed some perspective on it.
At the same time I should point out that I might be completely wrong. I know nothing at all about programming other than the time I accidentally wrote a virus that killed an early PC of mine... I'm just going by what we've been told over time, including what you read from Steve Gaynor a few months ago.
The verbal abuse seems to stem from only the highest quality posters.
:3c
The issue is not as simple as it appears from a conceptual point of view.
Maybe this will help.
The vending machine sounds are stored in one central location in a FSB container file.
The file can be accessed by all .BSM packages in the game however there is a catch.
The .BSM files link to the vending sounds stored on the heap, using a URI (similar to a web URL)
they are not embedded in the file directly.
If the .BSM files were 'cooked' at the time the vending machine sounds were working, then it was checked off as 'Complete'.
For the sake of shigglez let's say that the vending sounds are stored in C:/Bioshock 2/Sounds/Vendsounds/.../circusIdle.wav
All the .BSM files that link to the Circus of Values vending machine on the heap, also link to the sounds for the machine at
C:/Bioshock 2/Sounds/Vendsounds/.../
If 2K late in development renamed the folder on accident to C:/Bioshock 2/Sounds/VendorSounds/.../
the URI's in the 'cooked' .BSM are now broken.
Because sound is not a critical operation, if a sound file is not found, most applications ignore the missing file and continue execution which results in no game interruption.
If 2K was to address the issue, the only way to solve it would be to re-release BS2 in stores with the corrections. If they just released a patch, the patch in reality would be the whole game, because the .BSMs are interwoven between the FSB containers and the Bulk Assets extensively.
hope this helps, address the 'oh 2K is lazy, and their programmers are terrible' arguments.
If what you posted is correct, then it simply confirms that their programmers aren't that great.
They coded the game like this, so if it can't be simply patched, it's nobody's fault but theirs.
They can't have it both ways. All this does is confirm their incompetence, not the other way around.
And BTW, there's a thread here where a 2K staff member PROMISED the sounds would be added in a future patch.
EDIT: Even if what you posted was true, then it still says that their testing is pathetic and sadly lacking.
The programmers are at the mercy of the engine, the engine requires 'cooked' packages before it can work out of the box.
I understand the engine is modified but I am not sure if the programmers have access to the people that modified the engine in the first place. A 2K staff member promised because it appeared to be an easy fix, once they sat down and started looking at the problem they realized that it was not as simple as it was conceptualized.
I don't believe that it's because of the engine that it can't be patched.
The Unreal Engine is the most common engine in use, and it has full support and is in constant development.
Regardless, a staff member shouldn't promise something without being certain.
And in the end, it doesn't say much about their testing.
No matter what you believe or how you approach it, none of it is a good look for 2K.
And here we get down to the crux of my earlier argument. We're asking for them to give us play by play accounts of everything that's going on, when releasing too much information (ie: the original story ideas and the "promised" vending machine fix) is what's gotten them so many pissed off people in the first place.
Not this ☺☺☺☺ again...
Look, we've already HAD this discussion, we've had it several times and are TIRED of it. No, there's no vending sounds, and that sucks. But can't you just move along?
Can't we just calm down a little bit? It's Christmas time, after all.
True, they are slightly late with the patch / Protector Trials development, based on their earlier stated estimate December 2010. But I would be willing to give them time in this case, knowing their estimate was dangerously close to the holiday season when most of the developers leave for Christmas vacation, etc.
January 2011 or so is fine.
Don't mis-quote me, I never said "WHY NO VENDING SOUNDS", or take me out of context.
You quote someone, then typing what you like instead of what they actually said. Good work...........
We were having a conversation that's entirely relevant to this thread.
You sure are the biggest hypocrite I've met in a long time, you tell me to read your comment, yet you don't even bother reading mine. Anyway, I'm not going to reply to your next comment, since this is getting dangerously close to a flamewar.
And ancient, Christmas is very cold, come and warm yourself by the flames of our RAAAGE :P
Stop with the attacks against each other, guys. Have a discussion rather than snipe at each other, for the sake of this thread.
I just registered to say;
I was rather confused when I went to purchase Minerva's Den for my PC today via Live Marketplace. I had no idea about the problems encountered during the development until about 10 minutes ago.
Now that I am completely up to speed I want to thank 2k for resuming production of Minerva's Den for the PC.
As I read the original thread I grew very angry and vowed among the others never to purchase another 2k title. As I was planning on writing an email, it seems unnecessary since we will be in fact getting Minerva's Den after all.
Looking very forward to the next update.
I want to know, what sign is 2k Elizabeth?
I bet she's a libra.
I have never seen someone skirt such a simple issue with so much political, empty terminology in my life.
I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of this, the patch, the Protector Trials and Minerva's Den NEVER come to PC. They'll just end up reversing the decision they already reversed. We already know that it's in them to just give up and piss on the PC customers. Why wouldn't they just do it again?
I want to wish a very merry christmas to all the slimy bastards at 2k! Tis the season to lie, rape, pillage and plunder!
No way I'm a libra. I'm leo, if you believe in that stuff.
As for what's happening - the content's in production and is coming. We can make a gentleman's wager on it if you want!
Also: that's not very much of a happy holiday wish, so please, keep it cordial in here. You still have to adhere to rules even if you are talking to me.
LMAO!
It was all very tongue-in-cheek, of course. Actually I'm just a really big, impatient fan.
Merry Christmas 2k!
If you want to make a joke on the internet, I suggest putting in an indicator or something, we've got no body language to read or voice to hear. You might've been serious as far as we know.
Trust me, I speak (or type) from experience.
this is nice, they will release the patch in the same day the game was released a year ago. very good 2k if you work HARD in 10 years you can release another patch...
How about you post a virtual Christmas card with a group picture of you with the BS2 developers holding up a sign that says "Happy Holidays - Yes, we're working on it."As for what's happening - the content's in production and is coming. We can make a gentleman's wager on it if you want!
But then the people in this thread would be all "Hey, they aren't working on the patch or the DLC at all! They're just goofing around! BS!"
The amount of winers there are in this thread. I'm anxious to see the DlC come to the Pc aswell. But unless you want to port the DlC over yourselfs, please stop taking a go at the only people concurrently willing to make this S*** for you people
Sarcasm tag!
I know this is spam, but frankly I'm just really happy that Minerva's Den is coming to PC eventually. I hope everyone who is upset about the patch + trials being late will be able to find it in their blackened, pessimism-brined hearts to enjoy the excellence that is Minerva's Den when it finally hits GFWL.
Will this be compatible with Steam?
There's no reason I could think of why it wouldn't be Steam compatible.
I guess what I am really asking is if it will be available on the Steam store for purchase and downloading.
TRUE!. it's astounding that the vending machine sounds weren't noticed during testing of the final build! before mastering!. that's something you can't miss!. or wasn't it tested?.
Games for Windows Live DLC is purchased from the GFWL marketplace - it is not available directly on Steam. Doesn't matter if your copy is using Steam or not.
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