I've seen a lot of great games get support by their mod community:
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Arcanum; and especially Gothic 3 come to mind.
If Bioshock 2 PC could somehow find a PC Mod Community that would fix the technical issues, would 2K approve of them doing so and legally let them?
Funny thing... Theres a bug with trophies on the last borderlands dlc
This makes three problems now doesnt it?
1: Missed out a bioshock 2 rank trophy - that was solved with rebirth, had to rank up to 30 again and messed up my leaderboards status but thats not important, the trophy was solved
2: Unable to play the bioshock 2 dlc maps - how long has it been since the playlist was mentioned?
3: borderlands
Now I play alot of games I have 41 platinums to prove that, yet I have only ever had these issues to complain about
odd how they all involve 2k, or rather not odd at all... I don't have tech accounts for other companies.
How come you can't achieve a level of quality every other games company on the ps3 platform can?
Hey how *about * those missing little siter siadlogues and animations?
That is the one issue the 2K techies never answered me on.
Elizabeth what's the tech take on that bug? Everything else you said we should contact tech for, and I have, but they never did answer me on that one.
And since we're out of probable patch land and wandering the Island of Individual Issues Taken up with Tech, could we hear from them what it is in "adaptive training" that makes it toggle on and off randomly?
Please. With sincerity.
Dear Elizabeth:
I am almost embarrassed to admit how upset and bitter I am over the canceled patches and DLC for BioShock 2. After all, it is only a video game, and there are far more important wrongs in this world at which to be upset. However, I can't think of any other games that have provided me with a more captivating experience and that have had such a rich story background. That so much apparent effort went into the creation of an engrossing story with so many little details bringing it to life, continues to amaze me.
After finally playing and completing BioShock earlier this year, I immediately went out and purchased BioShock2, eager to continue the Rapture experience. While I did very much appreciate some of the game-play improvements and did manage to complete it, the experience was seriously marred by some significant bugs that caused me quite a few "hair-pulling" moments of frustration. Fortunately, my wife was out of earshot and couldn't hear the resulting bouts of swearing. To be honest, I can't think of any recent game that I've played that had so many obvious issues that have remained unresolved for so long and now, apparently, will never be resolved. I spent so much time patiently returning to these forums and the various BioShock 2 websites looking for patches and any news of worthwhile DLC, that I cannot help but be extremely frustrated and angered by recent developments.
I can't properly express how much eager anticipation I felt waiting these past few months for Minerva's Den, looking forward to one last visit to Rapture before enduring the long wait for Columbia.
No rational person can expect any company to go out of business trying to support a product, but with 750,000 reported sales of BioShock 2 in February alone across the two console platforms, I can't help but feel that these decisions are motivated by the costs and anticipated profits for each platform. I am willing to concede that 2K may not recoup the costs of releasing additional patches and publishing the promised DLC, but that assumes that only the cost of doing something is worth considering. I learned a long time ago that it is equally important to consider the cost of not doing something. In this case, I really don't think that much weight has been given to how much this decision could "cost" 2K in the long term in terms of customer loyalty and negative publicity. Perhaps it was considered, in which case I believe that it was seriously underestimated.
I think that any game developer or publisher that ignores or takes for granted the PC gamer audience may not fully appreciate the demographics of PC and console gamers. I have no idea if there are any studies, but in my experience, most PC gamers are professionals in their 20s, 30s and 40s with a substantial amount of technical experience to whom family, colleagues and peers turn to for recommendations, advice and assistance on all matters computer related. Whereas, with all due respect, console gamers tend to be teenagers or less computer-savvy adults of all ages that are somewhat more unwilling to invest in serious PC gaming hardware. Therefore, I would suggest that the average PC gamer wields a certain amount of influence that should not be underestimated.
Many have stated their anger because promises were broken, but I would have been just as upset if there hadn't been any promise to provide PC patches or DLC that has been made available to users on other platforms. As your customers, we deserve to have what is broken fixed and we deserve to be treated equally. If any company is not willing to properly support their games on the PC platform, then they should stop making PC games and no longer waste the time of those of us that prefer not to use consoles for our gaming experiences.
I have little hope that any words will change this outcome, nevertheless it feels good to put words to feelings. Truly, a sad day for PC gaming and hopefully not a sign of things to come.
Last edited by Rama1965; 10-15-2010 at 12:17 PM.
A very well thought out and well written post - I am a PC gamer as well, and I think that I pretty much share the same thoughts and feelings as you do on these matters. I'm glad you posted this in the community.Originally Posted by Rama1965
How about trying to make everyone 25% happy? Or 10% happy? Or even 5% happy?
I am 0% happy with the product I threw money away on, and I am 0% happy with 2k Games, and I am 0% happy with the way 2k has treated its consumers.
Is 2k suffering under the delusion that any of us are even remotely happy? I mean, yes, it's true that it is impossible to make everyone 100% happy, but it seems like a silly and obvious thing to say and isn't a valid excuse for making everyone 0% happy.
edit: Maybe this is a matter of perspective. Does anyone at 2k Marin/Games/whatever actually comprehend what it was like to be a consumer that preordered the PC version of the game? You throw the phrase "I understand" around a lot, but saying you understand and actually empathizing with us are two entirely different things.
Anyway, here's a rundown of how the last eight months have felt, more or less:
1) Ooh! Sequel to one of my favorite games. Preordered!
2) Bah! Numerous bugs! But I'm sure 2k will fix them.
3) Oh look! 2k is saying they will fix them!
4) Hmm, this first patch fixed a couple of things, but dozens of bugs remain. That's okay! They said there will be another patch.
5) Second patch...hmm, that's odd. The second patch did absolutely nothing. The thing it was supposed to do was already done in the first patch! Probably just an internal communication screwup, that's fine.
6) Third patch. Cool! Well...it seems to have broken a few things but a couple of things were fixed I guess. At least vendor sounds and a bunch of other bugs are going to be fixed soon, according to 2k!!!
7) DLC? Neat. Wait, it was on the disc already and this is just an unlock code? Shady...
8) More DLC? Well that's fine, at least it's not on the disc AND it is coming to the PC. Still waiting on those patches. At least Liz keeps saying they are coming!
9) Still waiting for patches. But hey apparently they are coming.
10) Cool, some...multiplayer DLC. Apparently the way it is designed doesn't let me use the maps very often but we've communicated this to Liz and it should be a trivial fix...I'm sure they will fix it soon.
11) New DLC should be here soon including the single player DLC! I'm surprised the Metro DLC wasn't fixed yet though. And those patches we've been waiting for...
12) 2k just announced that the new DLC will not be coming to the PC nor will we get any patches. Wow. What the holy &U*^?
Maybe my chronology is a bit out of order and I made this fictional guy sound pretty optimistic in 1-11 even though I was pretty bitter and pessimistic all throughout, if I'm being honest. I may have left some stuff out. Anyway, that's the gist from a PC consumer's point of view. It is a ludicrous thing to experience, especially when dealing with a big publisher and developer like 2k-anything.
What you and 2k need to understand is that we are not stupid. Many of us are programmers and have worked in design. Many of the needed fixes either were trivial or SHOULD have been, if BioShock 2 was competently designed. It shouldn't take six or seven months worth of meetings to fix an HUD stretching aspect ratio issue. It shouldn't take six or seven months worth of meetings to fix a looping sound bug. If it does, then your developers hobbled BioShock 2 together in a completely inappropriate way. I very much doubt that, so like everyone else I am completely confused at how these numerous trivial matters were not addressed after the third patch.
Last edited by Drez; 10-15-2010 at 07:58 PM.
I'm actually abit disappointed with 2K right now for being unreasonably unfair to PC gamers for not releasing the DLC content that we were promised for and buying BioShock 2 was definitely a big fricking mistake.
^^
Sad, funny and true.
Once again - correct.
Dear 2K, I am a software developer with ~10 years of coding experience. These fixes shouldn't be the rocket science if you got the code architecture right from the very beginning and were truly willing to deliver them.
I guess the code internals were so messed up, 2K simply decided to give up. But is it our problem? We are paying customers and you are a service provider. We should expect at least a minimum level of service quality. This is the most advanced market economy in the world, after all, where the consumer rights, at least theoretically, are respected and the market demands, at least on paper, are met.
But the biggest problem is the attitude. We did believe you for 8 months the fixes are coming, DLCs are coming... waited patiently and silenced other critics... "hey, the time is near", knowing the challenges of dealing with large masses of code ...only for us to be dropped from the boat so ruthlessly.
bye bye, PC customers... you are the step-children in this family; work harder, buy harder next time, earn your own food!
Heck, I alone would deliver these fixes after 8 months of work, and you are a full-blown company that assigns at least several people to this task.
It also speaks of... neglect. The family is by definition dysfunctional if some children (Consola and Consolis) get preferential treatment and other geek kids are put into the dark attic - doors slammed & shut.
No food, sorry.
in the house of upside down
cellar's is top floor, attic's ground
Sad but 2K family, that looked so promising just a few months ago... has just revealed its rotten core and the true attitude towards the customers. How ironic are the phrases: "we support PC", "we firmly stand behind our product" after recent demarches like this.
Finita la comedia.
Nothing will change, of course. No fixes, no Minerva's Den... If "There's Something In The Sea" was the high point of the Bioshock 2 journey, this systematic neglect of PC customers will stay in our memory as the absolute zero of this journey. But was it really necessary to end up like this?
The long-term damage has just begun... and they didn't live happily ever after.
...found is lost and lost is found
Just saw a post about this on Kotaku.
I think it's hilarious that almost every 2K Published PC game in the past 2-3 years has gotten the short end of the stick in post-sale support, and yet people go into buying these games on the PC believing that maybe this time 2K will straighten up and fly right.
Here's what to expect as a PC gamer: Unless your 2K published PC game has 'Civilization' in the title, don't expect anything beyond the original game. No patches, no DLC. Anything you might get is because something slid through without anyone noticing before the door closed on that game.
See you for Bioshock Infinite.
The only way something is going to get done is if you get the biggest stick possible and hit 2K with, and that is LITIGATION.
Bearing in mind that the US is the most litigious society where the majority of posters on here are from and where this joke of a studio is based, I would suggest someone start action against the company for being stolen from, the product is not working, the DLC does not work as intended and you are not being given the reparatory service to have working products.
That I'm afraid is more than likely the only way a resolution will be gained.
I'm not sure that would help. Their terms of licence are normally waterproof, so I gues it will be difficult to make a case in court.
Last edited by Mearl; 10-16-2010 at 12:34 AM.
You just summed up EVERYTHING I feel right now. Even the timeline. I was sooooooooooooooooooooo optimistic, and now I is anga-reh!
Rapture Metro Pack could actually be a case.
This is a non-playable DLC they charged money for. You can't take money for the non-functioning product, according to the consumer laws. Either fix it or refund it.
It's American, the place where a dosey old women successfully sued McDonalds for not labelling the container of a cup of coffee as holding hot contents when she tipped it on herself, the land of litigation, anything is possible.
Off topic admittedly, but I find it highly ironic and amusing that this articles' been posted across at Irrational Games : http://irrationalgames.com/insider/t...rite-pc-games/ => Ten Things: Our Favorite PC Games ,"As game developers, we love a wide range of games–and no single platform spans a wider range than the PC."
Maybe we cut out the middleman from now on, and just buy empty boxes from 2K? They can fire their developers and just sell us a box with no functional game included in it.
You can, until someone does something about it.
Unfortunately, most people don't take games seriously enough to spend the time or money doing so.
Anyway, what really ticks me off is that the bugs present in Bioshock 2 are the exact same bugs in the original Bioshock, and then some.
That means:
1. The programmers are incompetent.
2. The programmers are indifferent to their customers.
3. The programmers are insane (isn't the definition of insanity repeating the same things and expecting a different result?).
None of these three are a good look.
And yet, we have Elizabeth and 2K telling us that they are proud of their work, stand behind their products and that they listen and take us seriously.
I'm on the xbox so I only have trouble with the big sister music loop, lack of vedning machine noise, and sometimes the little sister dialogue doesn't play, other then that I have no trouble with the game. I feel really bad though for PC users and I'm miffed that the Vending Sounds will not be fixed, and a Metro Map play-list would have been awesome BTW.
I really cannot fathom how a company that stares at code all day could not fix the tiniest things (vending sounds and big sister music loop, among other things) within an 8 month period and at the end of that 8 month period cuts off its PC users from DLC. It utterly baffles me.
I really think that 2k should adopt ArenaNet's policy for Guild Wars 2 for its future products. Whenever someone asks "When will it be out?" the answer Anet always gives is "When it is ready.". They have stated that they won't even do a Beta until it is as polished as they can get it without players trying it out and to me that is fine. Please give me a polished/finished product, take your time, I CAN wait. I'd rather have to wait an extra 6 months to a year for a polished product then a buggy one. Even then I expect some bugs, they happen, just make sure you fix them in a timely and correct manner and keep me informed on progress, good or bad, I can take any news.
Nice comment i give you a 10.USA is a bored country so it could be possible. A country that made Jedi an official religion tell much about it...
Hey there everyone...
I've been lurking and watching the proceedings here for a couple of months now, and just wanted to throw this viewpoint out there. It may or may not be the case, but *shrugs* who can really say anymore?
Could it be, that the programming team has wanted very desperately to fix all the issues that we have put out there since the beginning, but the All-Seeing-Eye (that being their corporate masters) simply watched on then went "nup, not happening?"
All this treatment kind of reminds me of my time as a customer for Hellgate....and we all know how that turned out.
I want it known that im not a 2K apologist or anything like that. I'm just extremely frustrated and at the point of saying enough is enough and burying this game in a salt mine alongside E.T.
No matter the reasons and all, all I know is 2K Publisher and 2K Marin are NOT bringing the last two of the DLC content here to the PC and are not going to fix many of the issues the PC gamers are having w/ the PC version.
I hope they seriously change their mind. I've missed out on ALL the Bioshock 2: Pay-To-Play-DLC's and would be interested in a Bioshock 2: Complete Edition - especially if the last two Bioshock 2 DLC's came to the PC. Now, eh - I'm just not too interested.
Game dev's and publishers keep giving gamers more reasons to not buy their game at $40-60, upon release - releasing often what is Alpha or Beta-in-a-box. Then, they pump out so many DLC's, hard to keep-up w/ it all. Then, in some cases - PC version doesn't wind up w/ all the content found on console version. You know, I'll just wait for price-drop on Original Edition and/or wait for the eventual re-release w/ everything Ultimate Edition (if they even release one) - especially when it's from a company like 2K.
Life goes on.
Last edited by mysterd; 10-16-2010 at 11:08 PM.
what project are the developers of bs2 working on (so i can make sure not to buy it)?
They are currently working on XCOM, out in 2011.
I'm really surprised to see that people even still come here. I dropped by to see if something had actually been done about BS2 MP after giving up on it months ago, but I see that the exact same problems and now some new ones haven't been fixed yet. And maybe its just because I was scrolling through posts really fast, but did I see some problems with Borderlands now too? Lol. I'm sorry 2K, you made good games at first, but the future does not look bright at this point. I already gave up on DICE, and now I think I'm gonna give up on you guys as well. Its been nothing but complaining and hoping for far too long, I just can't bring myself to buy another 2K game if I have to risk going through all of this again. *Shrugs* Seeya guys.
I've really lost faith on 2K games for not promising us the DLC and frankly I'm not really buying any more 2K games and not in a million year so screw you 2K.
Hi Elizabeth,
Would you kindly provide an update regarding getting this announcement and information onto the Cult of Rapture, stickied in the Bioshock 2 root forum, and/or some other high profile and high visibility location?
Potential customers thinking of purchasing this game need to be made aware of this information in order to make an informed and fully considered decision. They need to understand that if they choose to purchase the game, the state it is presented in by the publisher now represents the final state of the game, and that no support is being provided to acknowledged bugs and other inconsistencies. Due to the extenuating circumstances as detailed in this thread - this extends beyond the regular statements provided in the EULA, and that this decision may affect their experience with, and even the ability to use the product being offered.
By making false statements regarding this product, (such as have already been pointed out in this thread, regarding HUD and aspect ratio, and the upcoming availability of additional content "Minnerva's Den"), 2K seem dangerously close to knowingly misrepresenting their product, misleading customers and engaging in deceptive conduct. I can only speak for consumer law here in Australia when I say all of these conditions are fiercly protected by our Consumer Protection and Trade Practices Act - I believe I am safe to assume similar laws exist elsewhere.
I understand End User License Agreement and/or Terms of Service Agreements are written to protect corporations with limited liability against the final condition of the product being offered, but by burying this important information in a thread in the forums, and not highlighting it as an official announcement to your consumer base, while your offical news and announcements point of contact still advertises features that dont exist and content that will never be released, you ARE misleading customers.
Please have your corporation make the morally (if not legally) required decision to print this information in a place where potential customers can easily find it, so that people know exactly what they are getting if they choose to purchase this product.
None of the above speaks for the more intangible customer loyalty and advocacy towards your company, which in my opinion has been irrepairably damaged by the decisions that have been made. So on an individual level, I'd like to formally express my regret, immense disappointment and my personal assurance that I will advise absolutely every relevant person who is interested in purchasing any future product published by 2K Games of the experiences we have.... endured during your clumsy abandonment of your PC gaming customers.
Sincerely.
I agree with Goldenboy.
The official site is the best place for this information to be clearly posted, since fans and gamers who don't regularly read the forums may not otherwise find this information.
For sure... what if someone, like me, has a PS3 and a PC. They might go to the Cult of Rapture page, which is the official information center, and think that the PC version is equal to the console versions...
It definitely is not. Right?
Hi Goldenboy
I wouldn't hold your breath, it's completely pointless, as clearly anyone even remotely related to 2K are entirely and terminally useless and do not know how to help with this matter.
Euphemistically I've been banging my head against a brick wall for the past ~2 weeks in threads and via PM's attempting the equivalent of hammering rubber nails into said brick wall, in fact hammering rubber nails into a brick wall would be a lot easier than making 2K realise they're on thin ice from a legal stand point and are for all intents and purposes morally bankrupt by misleading consumers and misrepresenting their shoddy product.
All you'll get back in response is meaningless platitudes and BS, which is evidence enough that the 'ties' are tight on what can be communicated to the community, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if there is a gag order on communicating anything meaningful which is indicative, in my experienced opinion, that things are worse than I thought.
In all honesty if 2K wish to commit commercial suicide more fool them for being so bluntly and abundantly stupid.
I suspect this post will garner misplaced indignation, but you, 2K, have no basis on which to plead even the smallest mote of innocence in light of how much you've screwed the game and the consumer on this.
2K reminds me of a saying "Genius has limits, stupidity is limitless", which brings me to something more succinct a colleague said "2Klueless"
PS
Last edited by SpottedPattern; 10-17-2010 at 11:13 PM.
That was pretty nail on the head, but I wager they'll ding you for it.
If 2K took the time and energy used in chiding people for being angry and snarky and rude at 2K for screwing over their customers, and used that energy to fix the game, then there wouldn't be people all angry.
Thanks, and there should be no reason for me to be dinged, though I stand to be corrected, I've not insulted or degraded any one person specifically, I've rather aptly tarred them all with the same brush.
See, this is exactly what I don't care about. I don't think we, as consumers, really need to investigate specifically where 2k went wrong. I am wholly uninterested in that except perhaps as a curiosity.
But the why doesn't matter to me. I hold 2k Marin accountable. They can internally point fingers wherever they like but none of that matters to me.
I also don't care if everyone at 2k Marin had the best intentions or not.
I think everyone is wasting their time delving into the specifics and I think that honestly sends the wrong message to 2l Marin and the rest of the publishers out there. I don't care why 2k Marin did what they did.
All I care about is that I bought a relatively-broken, falsely-advertised product and I expect(ed) to have the product fixed.
That is really all I care to concern myself with as a consumer. Especially now that 2k Marin has shown me how it feels to be spit on as a consumer that actually gets involved in the community. Eight months of being strung along like a yo-yo? Never again.
Not posting this on the official site shows the lack of integrity with this company. Fine, you choose to fail at your job, or to put out a good product and then make excuses for it and mislead your consumers. At least stop misleading future potential customers.
What is your excuse for not doing this post haste?
There is no excuse, 2K are just ......................... (insert your own expletive, linked with theft, fraud, etc.), either that or ...........
Actually there is no OR, there is no excuse why this hasn't been broadcast to the wider public, it should be errata'd on any site selling the piece of half cooked junk.
Though not to resist temptation, there is an OR and that is to use this whole mess as an excuse to stone wall the community further to blag even more time on top of the 8 months to fix bugs, port DLC's, etc. and then release it all in the future and pretend they listened, and things have changed at 2K, BLAH BLAH BLAH and then try to pass themselves off as saints and try to rake in the hero fan boy worship, if that is indeed the case then this has blown up in their face. But that is the only reason I can even remotely see as to why there is no official announcement on Cult Of Rapture or to r/etailers.
Last edited by SpottedPattern; 10-18-2010 at 01:16 AM.
Wait a minute here. I thought the "big patch" was actually being worked on, hence the delay because we are all non-programmers and the such.
How does one abandon something that they worked on??....unless it wasn't being worked on at all.
So Liz, for 8 months are you saying that it wasn't worked on at all???
If it was, release what you have then.
They can't. Since they made the mistake of going with GFWL, they have to pay to release patches.
Elizabeth, I notice unsurprisingly that you haven't answered why we never heard from tech support about the little sister dialog glitch. Every other issue you tell us to talk to tech support, I talked to them on this and never got an answer since everyone at 2k swore there was a patcxh coming to fix things, which was apparently untrue, so now why not tell us what 2k found about it so we can fix it without you?
Been waiting awhile. Not happy.
I believe you and I talked at length about the various issues you were having with the game and everything that tech support couldn't help with directly or provide a workaround was reported to the dev team to investigate - same goes for the issue you speak of.
Unfortunately unless the Organ Grinder gets on here to answer questions you're just getting nowhere, as pleasant as it occassionally is to deal with official community people they are at the end of the day just 'mouth pieces' doing their jobs, nothing more nothing less.
How about Jordan comes on here and answers a few questions ? face his adoring public <sic>.
Seems an adult thing to do.
Tech never told me one way or the other. They never said it had to go to dev team, they never said they had a workaround, they simply never responded to me on this issue.
And I didn't bug them about it because we were promised a patch was coming.
So from what you're saying now, there is no workaround ? Since they never told me there was? And it xould only have been fixed by a patch? Which we will never get?
Suck.
Well, my copy of bs2 should be at your office today or tomorrow. I'll double check the tracking.
I await that copy of Civ 5. I will be giving it to my friend. I get nothing. Thanks for that. Thanks for nothing.
Last edited by angrybeavers; 10-18-2010 at 02:56 AM.
Posting Permissions
2K Elizabeth