Lack of manual shifting - why, devs?

[Sehnsucht]

Let me start off by saying I am a die hard fan of Mafia, played it since it launched (just completed the last mission again 10 minutes ago in fact). And I have, like many others, a Logitech G25 wheel with an H-shifter and clutch. Naturally, I like using these whenever possible. In Mafia I have to switch the shifter to sequential (up and down instead of the H setup), which is fine considering the game is 8 years old.

But with new games, I actually expect them to implement specific key buttons for the specific gears, as well as support clutch. The former does not take much time to program, at all.

Now, why the devs made the decision to not at all support manual gearing in the new game, makes no sense to me whatsoever. Only reason I can think of is that all the cars are going to only have one gear? If that is the case, then I will rest mine. But if not, then allow me to humbly state that it is the stupidest decision they have made for this game, as far as I know.

I have pre-ordered Mafia 2, the release date is in my calendar, etc etc. But if I knew about this, I probably wouldn't have. I know many of you will think this is ridiculous, but for me - games where driving plays a big part are all about the realism. Every single car in the 40's and 50's did not have automatic gearboxes. A few select cars did, if at all.

It would not hurt the gamers in any way to have a feature where you could switch from automatic to manual in a jiffy, like in the original game. And it would not take much time to program.

Like they say; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Mafia was good in almost every aspect, why change the good when it's oh-so-good?

I am hoping at least for a reasonable explanation. Sadly, I'm not looking forward to Mafia 2 the way I did a week or two ago. It's a shame when you've waited for a game to come out for 8 years.

Anyway, I will cease my rant and hopefully await a sensible response from someone involved with making the game.

[Fugue]

you could try searching the 2KJack/2KDan threads for an answer, not sure if there has been one...

my take on it is... I never used manual gears, apart from going up a few hills when I had to and I'm not surprised it has gone, becuase I suspect most didn't use them either.

BUT

like other features that have changed I do think it should have been included for those that wanted it, they have said recently that they thought the devs were kind of making a racing game with the cars in Mafia 1, when it's really an action game with driving....

[DrCalgori]

concidering they made a big deal about how realistic and important the cars where to the game, i'm quite surprised to hear about this. As you said, why change something that was good?

[meuhey]

ive asked the devs and the answer was negative, its pretty sad that we wont be able to have more control over the cars handling, I was going to play the game with my G25 wheel like I did in mafia 1... sounds like I wont.

[raskarl889]

i hear what you are saying. but honestly the fact that there is no manual gear-shift is not something that i will lose any sleep over. i am more than happy with everything else about the game.
mafia 2 is going to be epic imo....i just cannot wait to pull into a gas station and fill up the tank..i wonder if you pump ur own gas or whether there is some random guy there like in mafia 1? i hope you have to pump your own - more interactive.

that will be the first thing i try in the demo. filling up with gas

[Sehnsucht]

ive asked the devs and the answer was negative, its pretty sad that we wont be able to have more control over the cars handling, I was going to play the game with my G25 wheel like I did in mafia 1... sounds like I wont.

Yeah, considering the hassle it takes me to "uproot" the wheel and move it to my other desk when I do a shooting sequence, it's going to be tempting just using the damn keyboard for the driving as well.

I guess you can't have it all, even though this is such an easy thing to implement... Which is why it pisses me off, I guess. Couple of hours of programming and I bet they could have pulled it off.

But I am guessing that boat has sailed, game is probably finalized and something like this won't make the cut in a future patch.

[Spiral Static]

I'm not too happy with some of the decisions they made for gameplay. I would have preferred the same health from Mafia 1 and losing ammo when you reload, but I can deal with regenerative health and the same reload system as all other games. I just think that those things set Mafia apart, but then again, if they were kept in, Mafia II would be getting even worse review scores because you know that reviewers would complain about that stuff. Bad reviews would in turn lose sales, so 2K Czech had to make some changes.

[Sehnsucht]

I'm not too happy with some of the decisions they made for gameplay. I would have preferred the same health from Mafia 1 and losing ammo when you reload, but I can deal with regenerative health and the same reload system as all other games. I just think that those things set Mafia apart, but then again, if they were kept in, Mafia II would be getting even worse review scores because you know that reviewers would complain about that stuff. Bad reviews would in turn lose sales, so 2K Czech had to make some changes.

I definitely agree on the ammo reload feature, I love that in Mafia. Had to actually think it through before reloading, as opposed to all the people out there firing off a round or two, reloading and doing the same again. The option for manual shifting wouldn't be anything but positive though..

[Lenin]

Yeah, considering the hassle it takes me to "uproot" the wheel and move it to my other desk when I do a shooting sequence, it's going to be tempting just using the damn keyboard for the driving as well.

I guess you can't have it all, even though this is such an easy thing to implement... Which is why it pisses me off, I guess. Couple of hours of programming and I bet they could have pulled it off.

But I am guessing that boat has sailed, game is probably finalized and something like this won't make the cut in a future patch.

You're probably right about the implementation time but then there is testing and so on which in turn takes a lot of time (and time is money). But seeing that they could have implemented an ability to choose shifting type there is no reason to blame it on that it wouldn't be used by the general player.

I think that it boils down to money in the end. Money is shet .

[Comp_Ali]

I think they want the game to appeal more for casual gamers . It is about sales afterall.

[ct03]

I always play Mafia with the manual gearbox. They could have at the very least included a sequential manual gearbox like in the first game. I'm so annoyed by this omission.

and losing ammo when you reload

Wait, so they even threw this out as well?

Apparently the console curse has taken its toll. A lot of the awesome realism from Mafia 1 seems to be gone. Next thing you know, and people will start shooting pistols one-handed. Why not get rid of the last bit of realism, too?

[Lenin]

I think they want the game to appeal more for casual gamers . It is about sales afterall.

As I said; if they would have implemented an ability to choose shifting-style there would be no conflict.

They also have to make the controls work with manual shifting on the consoles. Which might be a tad difficult, but I don't know, I'm not a game developer.

[Fugue]

They also have to make the controls work with manual shifting on the consoles. Which might be a tad difficult, but I don't know, I'm not a game developer.

lots of console games have manual shifting....

[jdwarfer]

I drive a manual shifting car in real life and I like driving but I never felt good using manual shifting in video games.

[Lenin]

lots of console games have manual shifting....

Indeed but from my experience those games are usually focused on driving.

[Miros_G]

So Mafia II will not have the option for manual gearing, but it will have traffic rules?

That makes no sense... In Mafia I had great fun driving with manual gearing and following traffic regulations.

Now, take away the manual gearing and only keep the speedlimiter, and driving gets very boring very quickly; unless you want to get constant police chases.

Also, I used the clutch and manual gearing to drive slowly with a keyboard in Mafia. This means that in Mafia II on PC we'll only have "stop" and "burnout", but not the option to accelerate normally.

All in all, my opinion is that the devs may as well take out traffic rules too then, since no manual gearing means you have to race through the city, instead of driving.

My only hope is that this can be modded on the PC.

[jdwarfer]

All in all, my opinion is that the devs may as well take out traffic rules too then, since no manual gearing means you have to race through the city, instead of driving.

I don't agree. Even with automatic driving, you can drive slowly. I don't see the link between manual gears and not being bored by fllowing traffic rules.

My point of vue is that I don't want to reproduce in games what I do in real life the same exact way. For me, non simulation games have to be easier than real life, just with some little details of realism that make games differents from each others.
It's a Mafia game, with chasing and killing, not a "I learn to drive" simulation.
Too much realism is bad, for me.

[meuhey]

your not forced to use manual gear box in mafia 1, they gave us a choice, manual shifting in mafia 1 made the car handle better in performance like for the race mission or any other car sequence that needed to go as fast as you could... Perhaps it will be mod-able on Pc version. At least mafia 2 have the RPM gauge in...

[Lenin]

I'll wait to make a judgement until the demo is released.

[Miros_G]

I don't agree. Even with automatic driving, you can drive slowly. I don't see the link between manual gears and not being bored by fllowing traffic rules.

My point of vue is that I don't want to reproduce in games what I do in real life the same exact way. For me, non simulation games have to be easier than real life, just with some little details of realism that make games differents from each others.
It's a Mafia game, with chasing and killing, not a "I learn to drive" simulation.
Too much realism is bad, for me.

I'm just arguing why there should be an option. Those that don't like it, stick with automatic.

When I'm in a chase and shooting out of my window I'd change to automatic too.

But when I'm just cruising through the city, I don't like driving 40mph in first gear all the time. Plus shifting gives me something extra to do, and to enjoy all the engine sounds.

These are just details, and I will miss it, because now on PC I'll have to depend on the speed limiter.

I am not at all asking for a driving simulator.

[Sehnsucht]

So Mafia II will not have the option for manual gearing, but it will have traffic rules?

That makes no sense... In Mafia I had great fun driving with manual gearing and following traffic regulations.

Now, take away the manual gearing and only keep the speedlimiter, and driving gets very boring very quickly; unless you want to get constant police chases.

Also, I used the clutch and manual gearing to drive slowly with a keyboard in Mafia. This means that in Mafia II on PC we'll only have "stop" and "burnout", but not the option to accelerate normally.

All in all, my opinion is that the devs may as well take out traffic rules too then, since no manual gearing means you have to race through the city, instead of driving.

My only hope is that this can be modded on the PC.

I'm the same, I tend to drive slower on manual when I'm not in a hurry, much more fun cruising in a high gear on low rpm than in a low gear pushing the red rpm range. Basically, this will make me speed through the game much more and enjoy the small tidbits less. Guess I can't have fun trying to do burnouts in T-Fords in Mafia 2 (or any other low-power car present in the new game).

And like you said, since there are traffic rules, it will be painful having to stick to them on cars where the speed limit is reached at the end of a gear.

Last but not least, driving with manual in Mafia made your car faster if you did it right, it was an extra challenge shifting gears while trying to chase someone as well as shooting out your window. It made the later missions much more fun when you had done them five times before, and the racing mission a bit less boring.

[vulture]

Anyone here ever play NFS: Prostreet because that had manual transmission And clutch.

[ct03]

Anyone here ever play NFS: Prostreet because that had manual transmission And clutch.

Pretty much every racing game has a manual transmission option.

[Gamba]

Maybe 2K assh*le and his twin brother, Take Tittys, only have a Automatic Driver's License?

[Miros_G]

But even with automatic transmission your engine doesn't stay near the redline all the time.

If they don't give the option for manual transmission, I'm still hoping for two settings of the automatic transmission: cruising and fast (chases, races, etc..).

[Lenin]

But even with automatic transmission your engine doesn't stay near the redline al the time.

If they don't give the option for manual transmission, I'm still hoping for two setting of the automatic transmission: cruising and fast (chases, races, etc..).

I doubt it.

[gazm]

As I've stated many time in other topics I'm so annoyed by this decision!

To draw an analogy and keep the car theme going, it would be like buying the perfect car: good looking, fast, cheap to run, beautifully sharp handling, smooth ride, practical etc... BUT the exhaust leaks carbon monoxide into the cabin... Great car though it is in every other respect, if after 10 minutes you're poisoned you're not gonna drive it very often.

The devs have left a hole in the exhaust of Mafia II and as a result I'm certain I won't clock up the hours I enjoyed with the first game.

[Lenin]

As I've stated many time in other topics I'm so annoyed by this decision!

To draw an analogy and keep the car theme going, it would be like buying the perfect car: good looking, fast, cheap to run, beautifully sharp handling, smooth ride, practical etc... BUT the exhaust leaks carbon monoxide into the cabin... Great car though it is in every other respect, if after 10 minutes you're poisoned you're not gonna drive it very often.

The devs have left a hole in the exhaust of Mafia II and as a result I'm certain I won't clock up the hours I enjoyed with the first game.

If you are a pc player, you could always hope for the modding community to fix something that will satisfy your needs.

[gazm]

If you are a pc player, you could always hope for the modding community to fix something that will satisfy your needs.

I am and I do, but someone has mentioned the dreaded Steam is a requirement and someone else has stated that Steam products are difficult to mod...

I'll draw another analogy...

It's like featuring guns in the game, all perfectly modelled with accurate sounds etcetera and then leaving out the bullets.

[chalkman]

I would have liked to see manual gear in the game, but not hung up about it. It seems surprising to me considering i've read that some of the devs were using the g25 to play it, and to not use the shifter is a major mis-use of that controller.
The H pattern shift probably couldn't be realistically used with cars from the 40's (although some models in the 50's perhaps) so they opted out. I don't remember hearing but I'd assume we still get a handbrake, so it should be okay for the most part.

[ct03]

We get a handbrake? Wow, what a relief. Um, what?

I thought the developers would stay true to themselves and include all the awesomeness from the first game in the sequel. But apparently they're watering down the gameplay considerably.

Question: what about recoil? After everything I've heard I can only assume they removed that as well?

[gazm]

They're clearly going for this level of gameplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yCmJXEsgFo

[ArchangelX]

I`m not happy with the lack of the manual shifting, I have used it occationally in Mafia I with a sequential shifter, and I very much looked forward using it in Mafia II with a h-pattern shifter.

I really do not understand why they left it out, it is along the same line with the remaining bullets in the magazine thing, it is small things like this that also makes a game stand out from the crowd, not only the story.

As I have said many times before, there are many driving enthusiasts on PC that would probably love to have a game where you can drive around in a beautiful city with somewhat normal traffic and traffic laws, and I hoped that Mafia II would be that, and i am sure for most parts it will, but I simply do not understand the reason to leave it out

[ct03]

As I have said many times before, there are many driving enthusiasts on PC that would probably love to have a game where you can drive around in a beautiful city with somewhat normal traffic and traffic laws

Yup, I actually enjoyed following the traffic laws.
I loved being part of a "real" functioning city instead of hurrying from mission to mission at 100 mph.

[Ingemar]

I really hope a developer/forum administrator like 2kjack comes in here and answer our question. I feel very sad knowing that the guys at 2k have worked very hard on the game and the simulator mode, and that having a lack of manual shift (that was present in mafia) is a deprovement of the "authenticity" and gameplay of the game.

[Spiral Static]

We get a handbrake? Wow, what a relief. Um, what?

I thought the developers would stay true to themselves and include all the awesomeness from the first game in the sequel. But apparently they're watering down the gameplay considerably.

Question: what about recoil? After everything I've heard I can only assume they removed that as well?

So adding a cover system, better stealth gameplay, vastly improved shooting, and a visceral fist-fighting system is watering down the gameplay?

I don't understand the removal of manual transmission, but I'm not losing sleep over it.

Would you rather have the gameplay be exactly the same as the first, or have everything vastly improved, but with no manual transmission? Because I'll take a cover system and great melee combat over manual shifting.

[DrCalgori]

So adding a cover system, better stealth gameplay, vastly improved shooting, and a visceral fist-fighting system is watering down the gameplay?

Would you rather have the gameplay be exactly the same as the first, or have everything vastly improved, but with no manual transmission? Because I'll take a cover system and great melee combat over manual shifting.

a) Yes, i would rather have the gameplay be exactly the same since Mafia 1 was pretty much perfect. Nothing needed to be changed from it.

b)People who got an early access to the game said the melee combat is crap.

c) Cover system and stealth? I'd be very surprised to see them do a good stealth mission. No game has actually been able to do a decent stealth mission (with the exclusion of the Thief series), and a game that focuses on non stealth gameplay would be hardpressed to do a decent one too.

As for the cover system, i dont want it. Why? Cause it follows the same boring ass concept of every other gears of war clone out there. Mafia 1 didn't have it which made it hard. Now i can simply snap to cover and wait for health to regen and bam, the game is simple as peanuts.

In closing, yea the gameplay is watered down since their appealing to the idiotic casual console gamer masses, which is to say they use the same old boring techniques in their game as every other game.

..And people actually wonder why people compare this to GTA when their pretty much copying the same generic game standards out there.

[McGee]

a) Yes, i would rather have the gameplay be exactly the same since Mafia 1 was pretty much perfect. Nothing needed to be changed from it.

Perfect? Lol...maybe for 2002, perhaps...

b)People who got an early access to the game said the melee combat is crap.

Actually there have been plenty of people who said it's great. They said it's similar to boxing games, and is even kinda difficult. Also the PC Zone review mentioned that Mafia 2 combat is "fluid, and dynamic."

c) Cover system and stealth? I'd be very surprised to see them do a good stealth mission. No game has actually been able to do a decent stealth mission (with the exclusion of the Thief series), and a game that focuses on non stealth gameplay would be hardpressed to do a decent one too.

The stealth in the gameplay vids look fine. Nothing special, similar to Uncharted 2 stealth.

As for the cover system, i dont want it. Why? Cause it follows the same boring ass concept of every other gears of war clone out there. Mafia 1 didn't have it which made it hard. Now i can simply snap to cover and wait for health to regen and bam, the game is simple as peanuts.

I don't get this statement. So your saying it's WAY more realistic to be crouching behind a wall, rather than standing taking cover? In real life you take cover, coverless gameplay is so 2003.

In closing, yea the gameplay is watered down since their appealing to the idiotic casual console gamer masses, which is to say they use the same old boring techniques in their game as every other game.

Uh-huh. God forbids Mafia 2 try's to expand it's mechanics, rather than keep the same mechanics of an 8 year old game

..And people actually wonder why people compare this to GTA when their pretty much copying the same generic game standards out there.

No people compare it to GTA IV because they only see a gigantic city, so there brains automatically assume gta.

This game stands out purely because of it's story, nothing more, nothing less.

[Mintz95]

Why would anybody want the same gameplay as 2002? I love the first game, but we have to realize that over time, the gameplay will fall far behind modern games, which IMPROVE gameplay. If Mafia II had the same gameplay as Mafia 1, I would not buy it.

[McGee]

Why would anybody want the same gameplay as 2002? I love the first game, but we have to realize that over time, the gameplay will fall far behind modern games, which IMPROVE gameplay. If Mafia II had the same gameplay as Mafia 1, I would not buy it.

Neither would I. I played Mafia 1, 2 years ago on my ps2. An the gameplay in the game was HORRIBLE. Perhaps it's because I'm more accustomed to cover based shooters (like Uncharted, Mordern Warfare, Gears, etc...), but that gameplay was nearly unplayable.