The official "Why no Spain, Inca, Zulu, Tannu Tuva, Bhutan, etc" Thread

[franbelda]

Way to screw up you guys!

You didn't include the spanish civilization?!?! One third of the present world population is culturally spanish due to the expanse of the empire and hundreds of years of colonization but you decide to add the Iroquois! The freaking Songhai?!?! What. the. Hell?!

And to add insult to injury this topic is "no Spain, Ica, Zulu, Tannu Tuva"?!?!? So you compare the Tannu Tuva to Spain. I can see how both changed and directed the course of human history in the same proportion.

[EnigmaCode]

There have been plenty of posts/threads regarding Spain. Perhaps they wanted some geographically/culturally diverse civs? Maybe they didn't want to leave Africa with just one civ while leaving Europe with seven civs (not even including the Ottomans)! Can't you see that the Songhai were important in Africa? What? You want a land-locked Saharan empire to somehow build ships to settle the globe? Of course its not going to have as much influence as Spain (in addition the Songhai were way before Spain). Its like saying that because German has fewer speakers than Spanish, it isn't as important. That's a ridiculous argument. All civs should be added if they were the main influence in their known world. And how about the Iroquois? Just because your Spanish that somehow lowers their importance? The answer to that is no.

Don't worry, Spain will be added in an expansion pack/mod soon enough. This topic has been addressed numerous times. Let's move along now people!

[Moonshina]

The fact that some countries arn't in Civ 5 shouldn't really cause this much of a riot. I mean REALLY!
This game is just the begining of a ton of expansions. And, with an "easier moding setup".
SO IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE GAME...
MOD IT YOURSELF!!!

[Skunkone]

Way to screw up you guys!

You didn't include the spanish civilization?!?! One third of the present world population is culturally spanish due to the expanse of the empire and hundreds of years of colonization but you decide to add the Iroquois! The freaking Songhai?!?! What. the. Hell?!

And to add insult to injury this topic is "no Spain, Ica, Zulu, Tannu Tuva"?!?!? So you compare the Tannu Tuva to Spain. I can see how both changed and directed the course of human history in the same proportion.

Cry more, I am so tired of this. At first I was at lest somewhat sympathetic, but at this point I think Spain has taken the crown from America for dumbest nation. Seriously you have not been relivent to the world for 100years so go shove it.

[Onandoga]

And yet the Greeks have been included in every CIV to date? So no I don't think that a lack of unity can really be used as an argument.

They are included because king philip united them, (although he wasnt greek). Then his son alexander (who considered himself greek since he was tutored by aristotle) led greece on a brutal campaign. So yes, Unity is an excuse.

btw Spain, just shut up. youll be added in the next expansion. Iv played civ games that dont have my civ (iroquois) and i still enjoy them. and as iv said earlier on this thread, and some one has said above, if your impatient MOD

[Skanvak]

They are included because king philip united them, (although he wasnt greek). Then his son alexander (who considered himself greek since he was tutored by aristotle) led greece on a brutal campaign. So yes, Unity is an excuse.

I have to disagree about unity. First the celts where not reality unity neither the Gauls but they were includGreece was not really united by Phillip, it is more complicated. Second, it has never been said that the civilization in civ where really unified, you can consider each city as a city state part of a greater confederation.

I consider cultural unity and a sense of unity (like the greek city against the persian) to be important.

[Onandoga]

I have to disagree about unity. First the celts where not reality unity neither the Gauls but they were includGreece was not really united by Phillip, it is more complicated. Second, it has never been said that the civilization in civ where really unified, you can consider each city as a city state part of a greater confederation.

I consider cultural unity and a sense of unity (like the greek city against the persian) to be important.

the celts arent in the game tho...

[cberry]

They should definitely be included in Civ. The Zulu were a very dynamic civ that lived in sub-Saharan South Africa.

Leader: Shaka Zulu (who else)

UU: Assegai Spearmen - They were long javelins/spears which became widely known through Zulu use. Shaka Zulu combined long assegais with iklwa (short assegai) for an effective force for both long and short range attack. The assegai would be used as a range attack to soften up enemy troops; then they would engage in close quarters combat with the iklwa.

UA: Ancestor Worship - I honestly don't know what their UA should be. However, the Zulu did practice ancestor worship. This could be a defense bonus of some type.

UB: Umuzi - These were traditional Zulu huts and were round in shape. They were surrounded with stockade of tamboti wood for protection against insects.

You're spot-on with everything that I would've said here. Good to see someone else that knows a good bit about Zulu warfare and Shaka Zulu.

I think I'd name the UA something like "Bullhorns formation" that temporarily give every military unit "Blitz", assuming Blitz still exists in Civ 5.

[Helvetian]

I think the Swiss Confederation should be in the game. It's one of the oldest still existing countries in the world. Its foundation goes back to the year 1291. Before gun powder was invented, the Swiss warriors were among the most feared warriors in Europe, even feared by France, whos kings were desperatly looking for ways to put the Swiss into economic dependence to pacify "the Swiss lions".

Furthermore, a Swiss dynasty was ruling over whole Europe during the centuries. They are well known even today as the Habsburgs. They determined the destiny of countries like Spain, France, the German countries. the Holy Roman Empire, the Italian States, Austria-Hongary etc....

The Swiss have the longest lasting democracy besides the U.S. , they have founded the Red Cross, they granted asylum to many persecuted groups during the centuries, they have not been at war for over 150 years (our civil war only took around 30 souls), they were a very important mediator during the cold war, they were the first right after Britain to be industrialized, they have the most densiest railroad network, the logest railroad tunnel and many well known scientists.

We have a lot of arguments that would qualify us to be in the game, yet only one counter argument, that we are too small.

[EnigmaCode]

I think the Swiss Confederation should be in the game. It's one of the oldest still existing countries in the world. Its foundation goes back to the year 1291. Before gun powder was invented, the Swiss warriors were among the most feared warriors in Europe, even feared by France, whos kings were desperatly looking for ways to put the Swiss into economic dependence to pacify "the Swiss lions".

Furthermore, a Swiss dynasty was ruling over whole Europe during the centuries. They are well known even today as the Habsburgs. They determined the destiny of countries like Spain, France, the German countries. the Holy Roman Empire, the Italian States, Austria-Hongary etc....

The Swiss have the longest lasting democracy besides the U.S. , they have founded the Red Cross, they granted asylum to many persecuted groups during the centuries, they have not been at war for over 150 years (our civil war only took around 30 souls), they were a very important mediator during the cold war, they were the first right after Britain to be industrialized, they have the most densiest railroad network, the logest railroad tunnel and many well known scientists.

We have a lot of arguments that would qualify us to be in the game, yet only one counter argument, that we are too small.

I wouldn't worry about Switzerland not being in the game if I were you. I expect that Firaxis/2K added Switzerland into the game as a city state. Which makes sense for Switzerland due to its small size and it's historical neutrality (ie city states don't "play to win"; they just want to survive).

Switzerland will probably come as the city state of "Zurich" or "Geneva" or perhaps even "Bern." Honestly, in my opinion, it would be hilarious to see someone play as Switzerland in multiplayer and conquer all of Europe. So much for that "neutrality."

Honestly, I would love to see Switzerland in the game. They would be very enjoyable to play as. Their unique unit could be Swiss pikemen (highly regarded in Europe during their hey day and one of the reasons the Spanish tercio were formed).

[Helvetian]

I wouldn't worry about Switzerland not being in the game if I were you. I expect that Firaxis/2K added Switzerland into the game as a city state. Which makes sense for Switzerland due to its small size and it's historical neutrality (ie city states don't "play to win"; they just want to survive).

Switzerland will probably come as the city state of "Zurich" or "Geneva" or perhaps even "Bern." Honestly, in my opinion, it would be hilarious to see someone play as Switzerland in multiplayer and conquer all of Europe. So much for that "neutrality."

Well the dogma of neutrality has only existed for about 150 years. We have 570years of history before neutrality. And as a matter of fact, Switzerland has conquered many territories from their neighbours, including parts of France, Milan, and Germany.

A sign of the Swiss power in the past is that even today, there are still swiss mercenaries protecting the pope. Swiss warriors fought in many many battles in Europe and were regarded as elite troups.

And it remains the fact, that it was a Swiss Family who was ruling over Spain, Germany, Austria, and Italian kingdoms.

[EnigmaCode]

Well the dogma of neutrality has only existed for about 150 years. We have 570years of history before neutrality. And as a matter of fact, Switzerland has conquered many territories from their neighbours, including parts of France, Milan, and Germany.

A sign of the Swiss power in the past is that even today, there are still swiss mercenaries protecting the pope. Swiss warriors fought in many many battles in Europe and were regarded as elite troups.

And it remains the fact, that it was a Swiss Family who was ruling over Spain, Germany, Austria, and Italian kingdoms.

Yeah I know. The Habsburgs were very powerful and ruled large portions of Europe (Spain, the Holy Roman Empire, Austria-Hungary). I was joking when I originally typed that. Hence the "" symbol.

I agree with you that adding Switzerland would be very interesting to Civ. However, there's a list of European civs that people want to be added and unfortunately Switzerland probably isn't very high on that list.

[Helvetian]

Yeah I know. The Habsburgs were very powerful and ruled large portions of Europe (Spain, the Holy Roman Empire, Austria-Hungary). I was joking when I originally typed that. Hence the "" symbol.

I agree with you that adding Switzerland would be very interesting to Civ. However, there's a list of European civs that people want to be added and unfortunately Switzerland probably isn't very high on that list.

I know. We are damned to be, if we exist at all in a game, an easily conquerable nation.

[Rockit]

Scythia.

It's worthy & would be able to float in/over/around many of the neglected civs in the region between Greece, Iran, Russia & Scandinavia.

There are also many accounts of their impact on ancient history, culture, trade & warfare.

[Toomuchcalvin]

Scythia.

It's worthy & would be able to float in/over/around many of the neglected civs in the region between Greece, Iran, Russia & Scandinavia.

There are also many accounts of their impact on ancient history, culture, trade & warfare.

umm Scythia can be narrowed down to one civ that did something important: (well not really important as such, but actually did something) The Huns

I would like to see them in the game but still:

I CANT BELIEVE THE MONGOLIANS AREN'T IN THE STARTING LINEUP!!??!

like really.. they conquered so much in so little time even though in their case 'conquered' is an ambiguous term but for them they 'conquered' so much under Ghengis especially when they had so little to start with, they were always the underdog and always came out on top, that surely makes them a great civilization... more of a great civilization than say the Iroquois who, quite frankly, are only in the game because of geography..

[Onandoga]

EXCUSE ME????????????????????????????????? i am a big fan of mongolia, but that last comment about the iroqouis just proves how uneducated you are. (and it pisses me off)

[FlaviusBelisarius]

I'm used to the Byzantines not being included in the starting game, despite having stood for 1100 years and preserved much of the classical knowledge that was jeopardized by the collapse of Rome. What really irks me, however, is that the Ottomans got in in their place. It especially bugs me that the screenshots and cutscenes show this gorgeous shot of Constantinople, focusing in on the Theodosian walls and the Hagia Sophia....both of which were built by the Byzantines! Can't we show at least a bit of historical sensitivity here? That's really rubbing salt in the wound.

[Skanvak]

I'm used to the Byzantines not being included in the starting game, despite having stood for 1100 years and preserved much of the classical knowledge that was jeopardized by the collapse of Rome. What really irks me, however, is that the Ottomans got in in their place. It especially bugs me that the screenshots and cutscenes show this gorgeous shot of Constantinople, focusing in on the Theodosian walls and the Hagia Sophia....both of which were built by the Byzantines! Can't we show at least a bit of historical sensitivity here? That's really rubbing salt in the wound.

And we will have Byzantine fight the Romans legions? Though you get your fact exacts, I thinks that having Romans and Byzantine in the same game to be strange and largely uneeded. Just play the Romans, after all Byzantine are just the part of the Romans Empire that survive the fall of the West.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

I have to disagree about unity. First the celts where not reality unity neither the Gauls but they were includGreece was not really united by Phillip, it is more complicated. Second, it has never been said that the civilization in civ where really unified, you can consider each city as a city state part of a greater confederation.

The Celts were united in some ways. Although they did not form a huge empire across Europe, in many places (such as Ireland and England) they formed their own kingdoms. These were not city-states, but were multiple (small) cities, grouped together as kingdoms. In Ireland the country is separated by the six historic kingdoms (Ulster, Meath, Leinster, Munster, Connacht). Also, the Celts were in one of Civ4's expansions. Why not in Civ5?

[Toomuchcalvin]

EXCUSE ME????????????????????????????????? i am a big fan of mongolia, but that last comment about the iroqouis just proves how uneducated you are. (and it pisses me off)

how bout: a) explaining why.
b) no im not uneducated.. i have an opinion and a view, maybe im not entirely correct about The Iroquois but still the fact remains: if it wasn't for the Iroquois being there the US would be all alone. ONLY reason Iroquois should/are in the game.

+ I'm pretty sure that all of the other civilizations in the game are still around to this day in either their original forms or in a new name or reformed into more then one country. In the list of all the civilizations the Iroquois stand out as being the one Civ that isn't around to this day in one form of a country...

[Black Gate of Mordor]

how bout: a) explaining why.
b) no im not uneducated.. i have an opinion and a view, maybe im not entirely correct about The Iroquois but still the fact remains, if it wasn't for the Iroquois being there the US would be all alone.
+ I'm pretty sure that all of the other civilizations in the game are still around to this day in either their original forms or in a new name or seperated into more then one country. In the list of all the civilizations the Iroquois stand out as being the one Civ that isn't around to this day in one form of a country...

The Iroquois would be a country now if Andrew Jackson didn't go back on his promise to the Iroquois (and other Native American groups) to stop expanding west. Manifest Destiny was used as a slogan for the American public so that Jackson could get away from pushing the natives out of their homes.

[WaalTue]

Well the dogma of neutrality has only existed for about 150 years. We have 570years of history before neutrality. And as a matter of fact, Switzerland has conquered many territories from their neighbours, including parts of France, Milan, and Germany.

A sign of the Swiss power in the past is that even today, there are still swiss mercenaries protecting the pope. Swiss warriors fought in many many battles in Europe and were regarded as elite troups.

And it remains the fact, that it was a Swiss Family who was ruling over Spain, Germany, Austria, and Italian kingdoms.

I completely agree with my helvetian friend ;-). Switzerland should defenetly be part of the game. In an add-on like warlords (like in civ 4) they would make a very good fit. Because like Helvetian already said, the old history of switzerland is about battles and fights. And the warriors were feared from whole europe. They won vs larger armies from the Austrians, French (Burgund) and even from the pope!! That s why in switzerland ppl speak 3 main languages (German, French, Italian). Because they won battles and conquered new land.

Hope to see Wilhelm Tell as a leader ;-)

Cheers!!

[AMMK]

I'm pretty sure that all of the other civilizations in the game are still around to this day in either [1] their original forms or in [2] a new name or reformed into more then one country. In the list of all the civilizations the Iroquois stand out as being the one Civ that isn't around to this day in one form of a country...

What civs would you say would qualify for criteria [2]? If you're counting civilizations which occupy the same space of land but are culturally distinct from the civs in the game (e.g. Ancient Egypt and the Arab Republic of Egypt, Ancient Greece and modern day Greece, Babylonia and the Republic of Iraq, Aztec and Mexico, ect.) as meeting either of this criteria, then I suppose you have a different view as to what constitutes a civilization than I do. I don't really see the problem with including civs which either don't exist anymore (e.g. Babylonia), or exist but no longer have their own nation anymore (e.g. Iroquois). If we were to only include civs which are still around today and had their own countries, we'd be missing out on some pretty important civs.

Although there are other civs which were far more important than the Iroquois (Spain, Mongolia, Portugal, ect.) which I'd rather have seen in the game, and I agree that with you that the choosing the Iroquois over other civs that were by far more influential was probably influenced by N. America being too empty, I wouldn't dismiss the Iroquois outright. They were important in their own right.

[guti]

I think that is a great mistake not iclude the Spanish empire,I hope that it will be at the last version.

[Onandoga]

Im not saying that we deserve it more then spain or mongolia, (as iv stated earlier in this thread) but i really dont like it how people assume we arent even remotely important because the usa went on a genocidal campaign to wipe us out. and dont say they didnt, the BIA is guilty.

The iroquois are included because they had a strong religion and a very smart military and a well developed government. and to your point of civs still being around, thats not true. last i checked the arab republic of egypt doesnt even speak egyptian anymore it speaks arab... And the reason we arent around is because even after sequoyah sued the united states supreme court (and won) andrew jackson still disobeyed them (breaking the constitution) and forced us off are land.

[Brizzlering]

Oh yah, we've only introduced universal health care, peace keepers, the former fastest plane in the world, hosted one of the most succesful expo's ever, hosted 2 extremely successful Olympic games, captured Vimy Ridge, hosted the common wealth aeronodical training base during WWII. We have done so much on our own, and I am incredibly offended for you to say otherwise! Especially so close to Canada day! My friend, in my opinion you simply don't know enough about Canadian history. I apologize we didn't have a roll in the cold war, you know, except for one of the major starting points with the Gozenko affair, I'm sorry we entered WWII one week after the war had officially started. If there are Americans in the game, there should be Canadians too, we faught for our independence, and I believe it should be shown in Civ. You think we haven't done much by ourselves, that's simply an uneducated point.

We have Chuck Norris.

[Onandoga]

Brizzlering just won the argument.

[Brizzlering]

Israelites didn't do anything for human development -nothing revolutionary-. I think it would be problems about considere which caracteristics would have. They've been free for a small period.
Hawaiians are few. I've nothing more to say. Its culture was indonesian 90%.

They didn't do anything but develop Judaism and later Christianity, the latter one of the most widespread religions in the world. No biggie.

[AMMK]

Im not saying that we deserve it more then spain or mongolia, (as iv stated earlier in this thread) but i really dont like it how people assume we arent even remotely important

I'm not sure if this is in response to what I said in my last post or in response to what Toomuchcalvin wrote. However, if it was in response to what I said, I should clarify that I didn't mean to suggest that anyone was saying that the Iroquois were more important than either of these two civs, I just mention them as examples of civs that were more historically significant than the Iroquois (and probably a lot of other civs in the game for that matter). I also wasn't trying to say that the Iroquois were not important, I just meant that one significant civ (Iroquois) was chosen over other more significant civs (Spain & Mongolia) in due to the Iroquois location. That's not to say that they threw in an unimportant civ, it's saying that they included a civ that was less significant that other civs based on their location.

Apart from that, yeah I agree with you, it seem strange that Toomuchcalvin would consider civs such as Babylonia and Ancient Egypt as existing in "either their original forms or in a new name or reformed into more then one country".

[AMMK]

They didn't do anything but develop Judaism and later Christianity, the latter one of the most widespread religions in the world. No biggie.

While Judaism and Christianity as religions were, and still are, extremely influential, I don't think Israel as a civ was ever a major power or influential force. As an area of land, it has long been fought over and used as a battlefield for religious and political reasons by major powers, for the most part these wars didn't really involve any nation or faction that could have any legitimate claim to represent Israel. I'm not saying it should never be included, its just that there's a lot of other civs that I'd rather see included. If they were to add another Middle Eastern civ, I'd much rather see the Phoenicians, Sumer, and/or the Assyrians instead.

In much the same way neither Nepal, the birth place of Siddhartha Gautama, who founded another influential religion (Buddhism), nor Pakistan, the birthplace of Guru Nanak Dev (the founder of Sikhism) are in the game. These are two of the largest and most influential religions in the world today. Admittedly, this is probably not the best example as these civs are probably meant to be included under the all-encompassing "India", but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say. I can't wait till someone mods religions back into the game.

[Skunkone]

They didn't do anything but develop Judaism and later Christianity, the latter one of the most widespread religions in the world. No biggie.

ya because religion means something, they could be in for a lot of REAL reason, even before they were a MODERN free state they were a free state for hundreds if not thousands of years, not sure what year the exodus was.

[slon02]

How about Sweden? It was a very powerful nation for a large part of European history and it seems to be different enough culturally from all of the other nations that will be included. If not the Swedes, how about the Vikings instead? They were in a lot of the previous games..

[Onandoga]

Id love to see a sweden civ, UU probly would be a s-tank. And my comment was aimed at toomuchcalvin. as i stated earlier there are civs who i wouldve liked to see in there. but i just want people to realise we are very under-appreciated.

As to a jewish civ, besides the idea of monotheism (which accroding to the torah could also be attributed to the arabs) not much...

[EnigmaCode]

While Judaism and Christianity as religions were, and still are, extremely influential, I don't think Israel as a civ was ever a major power or influential force. As an area of land, it has long been fought over and used as a battlefield for religious and political reasons by major powers, for the most part these wars didn't really involve any nation or faction that could have any legitimate claim to represent Israel. I'm not saying it should never be included, its just that there's a lot of other civs that I'd rather see included. If they were to add another Middle Eastern civ, I'd much rather see the Phoenicians, Sumer, and/or the Assyrians instead.

Israel was a major power in the Middle East for thousands of years. They are a very important civ and just as important (if not more important) than Assyria.

The Israelites (Jews) first appeared around 3000 BCE during the Iron Age. During this period of time they were at constant war with the Philistines (Mycenaeans).

They established an independent kingdom around 1200 BCE. Afterwards, they then split into a northern kingdom (Israel) and a southern kingdom (Judah) around 950 BCE. The Jews were then conquered by Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, and Greece. The Greeks (Seleuclids) then tried to eradicate Judaism, leading to the Maccabean Revolt and the establishment of the Hasmoneon rule of Israel (a dynasty of priest-king rule which lasted from 140-64 BCE).

The Roman army (under Pompey) then conquered Israel in 64 BCE. The relationship between Israel and the Romans was shaky at best. In 66 CE, the Jews revolted and created a short lived empire called "Israel." This resulted in the destruction of the Jerusalem and the Holy Temple in 70 CE. The Jews last stand at Massada is famous. From 115 to 117 CE, Jews from across the Roman Empire (Libya, Israel, Egypt, Cyprus) revolted against the Romans causing massive massacres on both sides. In 131, Emperor Hadrian nearly banished Judaism and tried to erect a temple in honor of Jupiter on the site of the Holy Temple. This resulted in the Bar Kokhba Rebellion.

Constantine I then became the Roman Empire and (after moving his capital to Constantinople and the Roman Empire splitting) had the official religion of Israel changed to Christianity. Judaism then went underground because of persecution.

Mohammed then visited Israel in 620 CE and in 630, resulting in Jerusalem and Israel being considered a "Holy Land" by the Muslims. Afterwards, the area was conquered by Muslim forces. Islam then became the dominant religion and the Arabs constructed the Dome of the Rock. Muslim rule would last until 1099 CE.

Crusaders then were able to reclaim the "Holy Land" and Jerusalem for Christendom and the following wars left Israel impoverished. After the Crusades, Israel was a battleground between the Mongols and the Mamulks. The Mamluks ultimately won and established control of Israel. During this period, Jews were expelled across much of Europe (Spain for example).

The Ottomans then gained control of Israel and kept control of it until World War I. In Europe, anti-semitism was widespread and the Zionist movement gained strength among Jews.

The British then conquered Israel and named it the Mandate of Palestine. The Holocaust then decimated the Jewish population in Europe and led to the creation of an Israel/Palestine partition of the "Holy Land" by the UN in 1947.

In 1948 came the modern Israeli state. Immediately afterwards, a coalition of Arab nations invaded Israel. However, Israel miraculously won the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Afterwards came the Six Day War and the Yom-Kippur War. And Israel still remains a place of tension in the Middle East.

So you see, Israel has had a very important place in history and is worthy of being in Civ. The consequences of Christianity and Judaism were not even addressed in this post. In addition, the creation of both religions in Israel is, by itself, a major reason for including Israel. Thousands (if not millions) died over this small stretch of land. I believe the loss of life over control of Israel is also itself enough reason (and there are many more) to include Israel as a civ.

[Skunkone]

Whoa, before you disregard Israel as "no biggie" you have to consider their rich history.

The Israelites (Jews) first appeared around 3000 BCE during the Iron Age. During this period of time they were at constant war with the Philistines (Mycenaeans).

They established an independent kingdom around 1200 BCE. Afterwards, they then split into a northern kingdom (Israel) and a southern kingdom (Judah) around 950 BCE. The Jews were then conquered by Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, and Greece. The Greeks (Seleuclids) then tried to eradicate Judaism, leading to the Maccabean Revolt and the establishment of the Hasmoneon rule of Israel (a dynasty of priest-king rule which lasted from 140-64 BCE).

The Roman army (under Pompey) then conquered Israel in 64 BCE. The relationship between Israel and the Romans was shaky at best. In 66 CE, the Jews revolted and created a short lived empire called "Israel." This resulted in the destruction of the Jerusalem and the Holy Temple in 70 CE. The Jews last stand at Massada is famous. From 115 to 117 CE, Jews from across the Roman Empire (Libya, Israel, Egypt, Cyprus) revolted against the Romans causing massive massacres on both sides. In 131, Emperor Hadrian nearly banished Judaism and tried to erect a temple in honor of Jupiter on the site of the Holy Temple. This resulted in the Bar Kokhba Rebellion.

Constantine I then became the Roman Empire and (after moving his capital to Constantinople and the Roman Empire splitting) had the official religion of Israel changed to Christianity. Judaism then went underground because of persecution.

Mohammed then visited Israel in 620 CE and in 630, the area was conquered by Muslim forces. Islam then became the dominant religion. The Arabs constructed the Dome of the Rock and ruled until 1099.

Crusaders then were able to reclaim the "Holy Land" and Jerusalem for Christendom and the following wars left Israel impoverished. After the Crusades, Israel was a battleground between the Mongols and the Mamulks. The Mamluks ultimately won and established control of Israel. During this period, Jews were expelled across much of Europe (Spain for example).

The Ottomans then gained control of Israel and kept control of it until World War I. In Europe, anti-semitism was widespread and the Zionist movement gained strength among Jews.

The British then conquered Israel and named it the Mandate of Palestine. The Holocaust then decimated the Jewish population in Europe and led to the creation of an Israel/Palestine partition of the "Holy Land" by the UN in 1947.

In 1948 came the modern Israeli state. Immediately afterwards, a coalition of Arab nations invaded Israel. However, Israel miraculously won the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Afterwards came the Six Day War and the Yom-Kippur War. And Israel still remains a place of tension in the Middle East.

So you see, Israel has had a very important place in history and is worthy of being in Civ. Thousands (if not millions) died over this small stretch of land. I believe the loss of life over control of Israel is itself enough reason (and there are many more) to include Israel as a civ.

NO real comment here I agree with you, he was being sarcastic, it sucks how hard it is to pick up on the internet I know. But as well just thought id like to give you props for making the point I would have made if I wasn't lazy in my last post.

[EnigmaCode]

NO real comment here I agree with you, he was being sarcastic, it sucks how hard it is to pick up on the internet I know. But as well just thought id like to give you props for making the point I would have made if I wasn't lazy in my last post.

Wow. lol I totally misread the post. Internet sarcasm is hard to catch at times. Sorry you all for wasting your time reading my long Israel post.

Thanks for telling me Skunkone. Next time I'll try to tell if a post is just sarcasm. I'll edit my previous statement accordingly.

[EnigmaCode]

How about Sweden? It was a very powerful nation for a large part of European history and it seems to be different enough culturally from all of the other nations that will be included. If not the Swedes, how about the Vikings instead? They were in a lot of the previous games..

I like the idea of adding Sweden. People (when mentioned Scandinavia) usually think of the Vikings and that's it. Adding Sweden would definitely be interesting for Civ. The Swedish contributions to history are (in my opinion) under-appreciated.

The Swedish Empire consisted of Sweden, Finland, parts of Norway, and parts of the Baltic states (Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia). Sweden virtually had complete control the Batlic Sea for hundreds of years and were major rivals of both the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Russian Empire.

Leader: King Charles X Gustav or King Charles XI

UU: Shock Cavalry: the Swedish cavalry were highly renowned for their shock tactics. They would ride in close formation and at a range of 10 yards from their target, the cavalry men would shoot rounds from two pistols. They would then charge using varjor (sabres).

UU: Grenadiers: Each infantry unit from the Swedish Empire came equipped with grenadiers. They would support infantry attacks by lobbing grenades at opposing enemy forces. They were equipped the same as infantry and could be used as a separate unit.

UA: I'm not too sure about this one. Something along the lines of "Sea Control" referencing their control of the Baltic Sea would be appropriate.

Adding Sweden would be great in my opinion.

[Toomuchcalvin]

What civs would you say would qualify for criteria [2]? If you're counting civilizations which occupy the same space of land but are culturally distinct from the civs in the game (e.g. Ancient Egypt and the Arab Republic of Egypt, Ancient Greece and modern day Greece, Babylonia and the Republic of Iraq, Aztec and Mexico, ect.) as meeting either of this criteria, then I suppose you have a different view as to what constitutes a civilization than I do. I don't really see the problem with including civs which either don't exist anymore (e.g. Babylonia), or exist but no longer have their own nation anymore (e.g. Iroquois). If we were to only include civs which are still around today and had their own countries, we'd be missing out on some pretty important civs.

Greece has evolved and become something better, doesnt mean it still isnt greek. For example in the game: "Sid Meier's Civilization IV" (im sure uve heard of it) does your civ change once u hit the modern era? does a pop-up come up and say u are leaving "ancient greece"? its still the same. things develop if u expect everything to stagnate and be the same as it was when it was initially considered 'great' for it to be considered the same civ as it was back then, then nothing is a civ.

Apart from that, yeah I agree with you, it seem strange that Toomuchcalvin would consider civs such as Babylonia and Ancient Egypt as existing in "either their original forms or in a new name or reformed into more then one country".

um Babylonia isn't a civ in the game according to the civs page on the site.. not sure if there's other stuff out there.. but whatever. Egypt still is egypt, you cant define a civilization by what era it is in: its still the same civ. they dont have to speak the same language, things develop.

[Onandoga]

Babylonia is in the game. it was discussed on another thread.

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77052

And modern greece has a different culture then ancient greece, besides nationality.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

This is called a useless bump. It is used on a sticky thread when you want to attempt to get people talking on said thread again. This is a useless bump.