The official "Why no Spain, Inca, Zulu, Tannu Tuva, Bhutan, etc" Thread

[Shiav]

Well if this is being resurrected then might i say:

Canada - William Mackenzie King (22 year PM)
UA- Melting Pot. +1 unhappiness from every two citizens, +1 culture from every two citizens
UB- Hockey Rink. Replaces Stadium. Happiness 5 Maintenance 2
UU- either Mounty: replaces cavalry, when garisoned in city provides bonus happiness OR Storm trooper: infantry, recieves large bonus against fortified units

Israel- King David
UA- Diaspora: Border growth in cities without a trade route to the capital doubled
UB- Temple of Solomon. +2 Culture +4 Defense
UI- Desert Irrigation. Farms in desert recieve +1 food

[SlickSlicer]

Too many excellent modern military innovations Israel has made to not give them a UU. And Canada should have Pierre Trudeau obvs.

[Shiav]

Too many excellent modern military innovations Israel has made to not give them a UU. And Canada should have Pierre Trudeau obvs.

True, perhaps some variation on mech inf.

and never. never ever. i will not download a canada with trudeau. thats for ontario, no one else likes him

[tempshemps]

I want Mayans. Give them science bonus, and a culture bonus based on science output. Then I'd be satisfied.

[craig123]

I want Mayans. Give them science bonus, and a culture bonus based on science output. Then I'd be satisfied.

Why a science bonus?

[SlickSlicer]

A science bonus would be goofy for a civ that would have most of its unique features in earlier ages and didn't really have comparatively higher scientific output than others. It only minimally made sense for Korea and much less so for Maya.

[Hawk]

A science bonus would be goofy for a civ that would have most of its unique features in earlier ages and didn't really have comparatively higher scientific output than others. It only minimally made sense for Korea and much less so for Maya.

Actually the Mayans were doing quite well with science considering - they were more science focused than the Aztec in any case. For one thing they built observatories, and studied the stars...While the Aztec liked to copy off the Mayans.
I want the Mayans to have an ability that helps, or is related to City-State relations, since they were actually a group of City-States themselves, so this is very appropriate (We could use another City-State ability anyway, since out of all the civs in the game we only have 2 with City-State abilities, which are Greece and Siam). They could have the bonus give them more science - this would hit two birds with one stone.

[SlickSlicer]

Actually the Mayans were doing quite well with science

So were the Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Europeans during/post-Renaissance, Central Asians

The Mayans weren't exactly better in the scientific field than many of their contemporaries. I think a bonus that has to do with city-state relations is more logical.

UB-Ball court
UU-Something in the earlier ages

[mwallyn]

Saying the Maya were super-scientists or hyper-advanced is a bit too broad. However, the Mayans were noted for being the only Mesoamerican civilization with a complete written language. Also, the Maya had amazingly accurate astronomical observations, even to the point of being able to tell that Orion was a nebula, not a distinct point in the sky (they are, to date, the only pre-telescope Civilization to be able to do so), and could calculate the length of a year to a far greater degree of accuracy than ANYONE at the time. Plus, the Mayans were the first Civilization in history to devise the concept of zero. I don't think we're saying that the Mayans had created anti-gravity cars or cured cancer here; only pointing out that in a place not known for knowledge and scientific advance, they were pretty cutting edge, even by European standards in some cases.

[Hawk]

The Mayans also developed a 364 day calendar based on the movement of the sun.

Many of the more scientific civilizations of history learned much of what they know from other civilizations before them, or near them. The Mayans had no such reference, since they were one of the more advanced civilizations of the entire Americas.

[SlickSlicer]

I don't doubt they were respectable or that they were at a disadvantage by not being part of Eurasia. Nonetheless, it just seems odd to give them a science boost. Their astronomical accomplishments are impressive, but don't really translate very well technologically in their case. They never used their knowledge of astronomy for oceanic navigation or military advancement. As far as the game goes, it would just raise my eyebrows to see Maya leap ahead technologically past the other civilizations of the game, many of which had scientific achievements that were no less impressive (granted they lacked the degree of isolation the mayans had). Simply by putting them on par with other civs scientifically (aka not giving them a penalty) already does them more than enough justice. Giving them a technological advantage in addition to that pushes it in my opinion. Give them some kind of economic or city-state bonus, or a unique playstyle that forces people to use them slightly different than others.

[craig123]

^ I agree 100% with that.

[Hawk]

Ok, I see where you're coming from. My thinking is that they were pretty special scientifically out of all the indigenous peoples of the Americas - not to say that the others weren't scientific, the Inca for example were advancing beyond the others in some ways, such as using bronze weapons. I still want their ability to be City-State related, because the Maya were largely made up of City-States, so what unique City-State ability can we come up for them that would both suit them, and be effective enough for a civ?

[Wodan11]

Misc thoughts.

• I don't think it's quite fair to compare the Maya or Inca to European civs, for tech advancement. The point is that they were able to accomplish so much, without having any neighbors to steal ideas from or to see what was possible. Would any European civ have been able to do as well, being pretty much isolated?

• The arguments that Maya and Inca deserve only to be on par with European civs also are an argument that the rest of new world civs should have a penalty to tech advancement, right? (That's rhetorical.)

• Civ is about alternate history, about "what if." We can take the true history as presumptive example only so far.

• In my mind, the telling point would be to ask ourselves, "If the Maya/Inca were swapped in history with, say, Switzerland, would they still be innovative/technological leaders among the other European nations, or would they simply be on par and able to keep up?"

• It's really more of a cultural question. Akin to the Renaissance itself. Why did human advancement really slow to a crawl for 1500 years? It's because the cultural mindset of many nations changed to discourage innovation or new ways of doing things. In this sense, the fact of being in Eurasia worked against those nations, because the proximity also served to spread this "anti-tech" mindset (whereas later in the Renaissance it also spread the "innovative" mindset).

Thinking about it this way, to me, it's pretty clear that probably both the Maya and Inca were innovators in many areas. Thus, I myself would be inclined to grant them some bonus along those lines.

[craig123]

I don't think it's quite fair to compare the Maya or Inca to European civs, for tech advancement. The point is that they were able to accomplish so much, without having any neighbors to steal ideas from or to see what was possible.

You are correct that the Mayans' knowledge and achievements were significant given their isolation from the rest of the world. However, from a game-play perspective, giving them a science bonus would mean that in most games, where they would not be isolated, they would be leaders in science. It seems silly that, all things being equal, the Mayans should out-tech all other nations (except Babylon and Korea).

Would any European civ have been able to do as well, being pretty much isolated?

Nobody knows.

The arguments that Maya and Inca deserve only to be on par with European civs also are an argument that the rest of new world civs should have a penalty to tech advancement, right? (That's rhetorical.)

It's an argument that science should "spread" between neighbouring civs, rather than each civ needing to independently research each technology. This would result in isolated civs falling behind in science (I guess, to an extent, research agreements and tech trading have the same affect). Not sure how desirable that would be game-play wise - particularly if you were the isolated civ.

Civ is about alternate history, about "what if." We can take the true history as presumptive example only so far.

I agree. Otherwise, for example, winning the space race as Rome wouldn't be possible, which would spoil the game.

In my mind, the telling point would be to ask ourselves, "If the Maya/Inca were swapped in history with, say, Switzerland, would they still be innovative/technological leaders among the other European nations, or would they simply be on par and able to keep up?"

This is a bit of a non sequitur. Civilisations don't just land on planet earth in 4000BC in random locations. You can't, in any meaningful way, contemplate swapping Maya with Switzerland.

That aside, you can't just say, 'Maya did well considering how isolated they were; therefore if they had been "placed" anywhere else on the planet they would have been world leaders in science.' It doesn't follow.

[Shiav]

That aside, you can't just say, 'Maya did well considering how isolated they were; therefore if they had been "placed" anywhere else on the planet they would have been world leaders in science.' It doesn't follow.

placing them in switzerland you would also have to consider the disadvantages they would receive, being surrounded by potential enemies and thus having to use a larger proportion of their economy for defense.


The entire argument is negated by the simple question of would they still be mayans? were you to take mayan children and swiss children and raise them the same with no cultural influences but then have them colonize the opposite parts of the world in a pocket parallel universe would their culture develop to be mayan in switzerland and swiss in mesoamerica? no, as humans from switzerland are swiss and humans from the yucatan peninsula are (were) mayan, and to remove the swiss from switzerland would not make any future people who lived there any less swiss as they would develop the exact same as the swiss given a parallel historical setting and opportunity

in short it doesnt matter where youre from, just where you are

[SlickSlicer]

I don't think it's quite fair to compare the Maya or Inca to European civs, for tech advancement.

So don't. i.e. neither give them a tech bonus or tech penalty.

The arguments that Maya and Inca deserve only to be on par with European civs also are an argument that the rest of new world civs should have a penalty to tech advancement, right? (That's rhetorical.)

"That's rhetorical."

It's also a strawman. I didn't say that other new world civs should get a tech penalty, even if I acknowledge the astronomical (double entendre) technological accomplishments of the Maya. Civilization isn't an accurate game and it's not even really relatively accurate. Europa Univeralis III, by contrast for example, is not a fully accurate game but it's a bit more relatively accurate.

Civ is about alternate history, about "what if." We can take the true history as presumptive example only so far.

I'm not going to be massively anally devastated if the Mayans have a tech bonus. I can appreciate the "What If?" nature of Civilization, but I feel like a tech bonus is still better left for somebody else like the Dutch or something. And no I don't feel like arguing about the Netherland's technological aptitude vis-a-vis the rest of Europe/the world. It's just an example and not my main point. The Dutch could easily have several other bonuses, ranging from colonial (growth on new continents), naval or/and economic as well.

In my mind, the telling point would be to ask ourselves, "If the Maya/Inca were swapped in history with, say, Switzerland, would they still be innovative/technological leaders among the other European nations, or would they simply be on par and able to keep up?"

There is a reason most historians will occasionally bring up "what if?" scenarios but then say "this is beyond the scope of this work" (I've seen that line in reference to such scenarios about a million times). It is because "What if" scenarios are ultimately frivolous to debate about, unscientific and purely theoretical. They are fun to chat about, but hardly worth serious attention.

Why did human advancement really slow to a crawl for 1500 years?

It didn't. There were some highly significant advancements being made in the Arab, Indian, Central Asian and Chinese spheres. The Renaissance may have been a rebirth for Europe, but Eurocentric chronological labels (i.e. "Medieval," "Renaissance," "Classical") are imperfect for the rest of the world.

[Wodan11]

The entire argument is negated by the simple question of would they still be mayans? were you to take mayan children and swiss children and raise them the same with no cultural influences but then have them colonize the opposite parts of the world in a pocket parallel universe would their culture develop to be mayan in switzerland and swiss in mesoamerica? no, as humans from switzerland are swiss and humans from the yucatan peninsula are (were) mayan, and to remove the swiss from switzerland would not make any future people who lived there any less swiss as they would develop the exact same as the swiss given a parallel historical setting and opportunity.

I don't buy that one. It's a cultural question, not heredity vs. environment. Culture is totally based on environment. Your point, taken to the logical conclusion, says that NO civ should get a bonus or a UU.

The civilization's culture and basic beliefs are what defines how that civilization approaches the sciences, literature, and any of a number of other areas.

[Wodan11]

So don't. i.e. neither give them a tech bonus or tech penalty.

Not comparing is not the same as opting out. Each civ should be evaluated on the basis of its culture and approach to science, not in relation to others who had completely different circumstances.

"That's rhetorical." It's also a strawman.

Strawmen are acceptable in some situations, such as this, to demonstrate a point.

There is a reason most historians will occasionally bring up "what if?" scenarios but then say "this is beyond the scope of this work" (I've seen that line in reference to such scenarios about a million times). It is because "What if" scenarios are ultimately frivolous to debate about, unscientific and purely theoretical. They are fun to chat about, but hardly worth serious attention.

I'm ok with that. Which leaves us with considering each civ on the basis of its cultural biases, as I suggested.

It didn't. There were some highly significant advancements being made in the Arab, Indian, Central Asian and Chinese spheres. The Renaissance may have been a rebirth for Europe, but Eurocentric chronological labels (i.e. "Medieval," "Renaissance," "Classical") are imperfect for the rest of the world.

You're taking me out of context. My comments were in the context of the comparison of Mesoamerica to European civs, as was clearly stated.

My point about the Renaissance was to illustrate how the way a people approaches the sciences will change over time as well as from culture to culture. In effect, over time, a culture itself will metamorphose into something else (which is effectively the same as comparing one to another).

[Bismarck96]

It's Christmas time. Why not have a North Pole Civ?! I've heard such suggestions as Texas, Tanna Tuva (seriously?), Inuit, etc. While we're spinning fantasy, why not include Santa and his elves?

[twersx]

Indonesia? I don't know much about them historically, but they were an extremely rich area, and the central part of the Dutch colonial empire. Now, they're a rising economy. Plus the region is pretty empty; nearest civ is Siam.

[PachaMinnie]

I don't think Texas, Confederate States, and Tanna Tuva should ever be in a civilization game. Texas? Really? I could see the Confederates if they won. But they lost so Dixie land won't rise again and they certainly won't be in any civilization game for the next 10000000000.2 years. I like this thread I really do.

[mwallyn]

Buhh, why does this thread still exist???

I guess if I'll complain, I should contribute, too. Regarding Indonesia, there's been a lot of talk surrounding Majapahit, an ancient power that ruled most of what is now Indonesia. They're certainly a deserving region, both past and present.

Tannu Tuva was thrown in there because inevitably, someone will ask why some obscure pet civilization wasn't included. I've been here a while and haven't heard any serious discussion concerning them.

[steveg700]

It seems that this thread is dying, and nearly dead. I would suggest that anyone who wishes to ask for civs, post in the 50+ Civilization Civ5 'Forgotten Civs' post (third by me).

I'm sure it's just a pregnant pause before the final G&K civ is announced.

[Homero]

It's Christmas time. Why not have a North Pole Civ?

It seems that this thread is dying

This thread will not die. It´s a classic.

[Shiav]

This thread will not die. It´s a classic.

It may. Two of the title civs are in, and the Zulu are good money for the last expansion civ

[mwallyn]

It may. Two of the title civs are in, and the Zulu are good money for the last expansion civ

But what about Tannu Tuva??? This thread will live so long as they're not in!

[Shiav]

But what about Tannu Tuva??? This thread will live so long as they're not in!

I don't understand why they're on the list. They had a grand total of 23 years of independence, and in that time they were still basically under our thumb. Their uniques? Seriously I just could never see them as a civ. Why would you have the Tuva instead of the Kazakhs? Why would you need either?

[ddesart]

But what about Tannu Tuva??? This thread will live so long as they're not in!

I researched the Tannu Tuva on wikipedia last night because I had never heard of them...still not impressed enough to make them into a civ for Civ 5...there are a lot of more deserving civs than them...just saying...

[Shiav]

I researched the Tannu Tuva on wikipedia last night because I had never heard of them...still not impressed enough to make them into a civ for Civ 5...there are a lot of more deserving civs than them...just saying...

Every civ is more deserving than them. The Uzbeks are more deserving than them, and let's face facts, Uzbekistan is the ugliest of the Steppe Sisters.

[Kukulcán]

Every civ is more deserving than them. The Uzbeks are more deserving than them, and let's face facts, Uzbekistan is the ugliest of the Steppe Sisters.

Haha good stuff.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

ugliest of the Steppe Sisters.

Haha. Plus 1 internets for you.

But Tannu Tuva (and Bhutan) are the joke civs of the thread. They were put there to demonstrate that people would probably demand some really useless 'civs'.

[tfordp]

Haha. Plus 1 internets for you.

But Tannu Tuva (and Bhutan) are the joke civs of the thread. They were put there to demonstrate that people would probably demand some really useless 'civs'.

I thought that's what the Inuit were for. *confused*

[Shiav]

I thought that's what the Inuit were for. *confused*

Hi five. And also, Hawk-rage inbound. If Polar is still around he may join in.

[mwallyn]

Haha. Plus 1 internets for you.

But Tannu Tuva (and Bhutan) are the joke civs of the thread. They were put there to demonstrate that people would probably demand some really useless 'civs'.

Yeah, I think people missed the sarcasm there. Inevitably, someone has asked for a truly obscure nation just about every month.

As for your Inuit joke, prepare for the wave of rage from Polar Bear.

[zephyrtr]

This thread has the curse of the immortal. It wants to die, but you people just won't let it!

[twersx]

I'm not even sure how I found it. I opened a bunch of tabs, and saw this. It wasn't on the first page and stuff behind that is usually dying so i don't go there. Looks like Ahura Mazda himself guided my browser to this thread, that I may post in it

[Homero]

for Inuit joke, prepare for the wave of rage from Polar Bear

In fact, may I ask, are the Americans Indians (Sioux, etc) a joke? The Inuits are not a joke.They excelled in their environment; I have a great respect for the Inuit civilization.

[zorman2000]

I don't know if you have been recently following the thread and discussions, but first of all, Spain is a DLC, and second, Spain is going to be included en the expansion for those who didn't bought the DLC.

[Homero]

I don't know if you have been recently following the thread and discussions, but first of all, Spain is a DLC, and second, Spain is going to be included en the expansion for those who didn't bought the DLC

Hmm? I don´t get it.