Merged Esapana thread.
Merged Esapana thread.
Apologies for the long post.
They shouldn't, its an awesome country, but what people are saying is that they aren't really a major world civilization or a global power yet. As I've said before, maybe some day they will be and on that day we'll find them included in CivXII or something, but that day hasn't come yet.Originally Posted by mastafish
You have to understand that there is a limited number of spaces in the game as they can't make possibly make every independent self governing body in history as they'd have to make thousands of civs. And this just isn't possible if civs are to each have unique voice files, UUs, UBs and leader heads. If they were to make a game where loads more civs were included and one of them happened to be Canada, I don't think anyone would really complain. But if they were to make a game with Canada in, but a major civ like Greece or Rome out, then most people wouldn't really be too happy with that.
I don't think being a unique race is a determining factor to being a unique civilization, nor should it be. Race is to some degree determined by the time at which people lived. For example, in civ4 BTS we got the Arabs, Sumerians and Babylonian, who at the time would be considered different races but now could all considered Arab (not genetically, but when has race ever came down to genetics). I might also include Egypt in that list, but I'll leave it out as that would be a whole thread on its own and comes down largely to self identification and so has no clear answer. The Carthaginians would be another example of this. So we had 3-5 civs that may today identify themselves as Arab, as well as 2 Greek races (Greece and Byzantines).
Then I'll admit, I am uneducated as I'm not really aware of any of Canada's major military achievements, so maybe you could tell us a bit more about them.
The presidency of the G8 rotates each year amongst its members. This year its Canada turn, next year it'll be another members turn.
From what you've listed:
- Basketball - James Naismith (A Canadian born naturalized American). Although if someone were requesting the Mayans, I'm sure they'd also have this on there list.
- 56k Modem - Brent Townshend
- Ice Hockey - Debatable
- Gas Mask - Who? I mean, I can give arguments for the Arabs, Persians or Germans (Prussians) inventing it, or the Americans for patenting the idea. It was first used in conjunction with toxic gasses against the Canadians, but I've never heard of it being invented by them.
- 5-pin bowling? Doesn't seem to have caught on.
- Electric street car - Maybe. I really don't know. Do you know when and by who? I'm too lazy to google it.
- IMAX, Canadarm, Java Script - Good inventions
This isn't really that great a list when you look at it (compared to other civs in the game). But I'll grant you that Canada have had there fair share of inventions and discoveries. Any such list should at least include the discovery of insulin (Frederick Banting), which saved countless lives. And the use of hormones in cancer treatment (Charles Huggins), which again saved lives. Both received noble prize. They've made a fair contribution to chemistry as well. But still, in terms of discoveries and inventions they're nowhere near the level of countries like Great Britain or the Germans, nor are they yet comparable to the nearest equivalent, the US.
Last edited by AMMK; 07-02-2010 at 01:57 AM.
I will give my opinion that I think the majority will not like, but knowing writting hier not chagee anything well:
I think neither France, nei. US, nei. England, nei. Spain and all mother nations included civ witch are not civilizations are mixt of some or had other name in the past.
Some Nations still be able to be as they mother civilization, like Frace -> Gals, Spain -> Celts, Germans are Germans, Englad-> Brittons, Aztecs->Mexicas, Russian->Moskovians, Japan-> Nippons, etc, etc, and of course US is out.
Yes US is the most impresive nation in the XX century and hade some influence in XIX but is not a civilization. This is nothing aginst any nation is just what the game is about.
I know this will not be not becouse I am not right is just is not good for the sells. But I think like this and a civ editor we can may be make a US out of Brittish or Spain out of Celts or Romans.
Sorry a mistake with the connection was repited.
I had not propouse Iberian for civ. I propose Spain.
You've to read more. Really. Gals and Brittons are a pole of the Celts, like the Iberians. And French come from the Franks, the result of the union of the latin people (roman colonization of the gals) with the ostroghots, so they are a mixture of german and latin. But they're a country, a state, a civilization.
You have a strage concept about civs. I believe that you think "a civ is a race". It isn't. The USA is a union of several races, but they formed an unique culture, further than skin colours or eyes size. Is a way of live, a way of understand their world.
and you're ridiculous
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilization
@AMMK
well my long reply to your reply just magically got deleted and im really not going to retype that whole thing.
as far as military achievement though i encourage you to study world war 1 and world war 2 history more thoroughly. we were also in korea, the gulf war and afghanistan. its funny because in afghanistan, besides the brits and the us (in a way, kinda like 'dday') we are the only ones actually doing any fighting. but im guessing fox news doesnt tell you much about what other countries are doing besides the us.
also, i realize the g8/g20 seat rotates thats not what i was talking about. lets talk recession, how many banks in america folded or needed a bail-out to survive? many. how many in canada folded or needed a bail-out to survive? zero. the brits are trying to emulate our economic model, the world is writing stories about it. maybe youre just to proud to acknowledge that we did it right while the rest of the world did it wrong and the recession was proof because we weathered the storm better than any country in the world. fact.
yes, the inventions i listed have been credited to canadians. it matters not that naismith invented basketball in america he was canadian at birth.. further to that i would also say its pretty significant that canadians had a hand in inventing the telephone and the lightbulb
as far as 'programming' us into the game well that argument doesnt hold water either. recording a few lines of dialogue is not difficult. i bet they hired canadians to voice the americans anyways lol... the models would be a remodel of the brits/americans. thats how they did all the models anyways. make one, duplicate it and make changes. not hard.
but whatever my arguments will get me nowhere its easy to see. i, like many others, will just wait for the mod to be released and hold out hope that one day the game 'civilization' will actually be about 'civilization' and not 'world-power civilizations'
to be honest, it seems like sometimes other countries get p****-envy because a country as small as canada could do so much for the world, expect nothing in return and just sit back while everyone else does everything they can to try and shut us down.
Last edited by mastafish; 07-02-2010 at 06:22 AM.
oh no kidding eh! guess i better retreat to my igloo via dog-sled. watch out for that light-bulb sure is melting things fast around here.Just looked from the Wikipedia "Wars of Canada" and it just looked like you have allways been Vassals for someone else ... So lets just say: not a real empire or superpower just a puppet... and Canadas modernday inventions havent really amazed the world... Ask some European/Asian/Africaner which are the Greatest things you know Canada from? Answer is Icehockey and after that just silent"
Last edited by mastafish; 07-02-2010 at 06:39 AM.
Scandinavians anyone?
Is there anyone here who would deny that the Germanic folks from up north were one of the largest influences in Europe during the early Middle Ages?
@ mastafish
The vast majority of Canada's military history seems to consist of either (a) fighting for the British or (b) peacekeeping missions, the most notable exception being WWII. World War I falls under (a), as Canada was legally obliged to enter the war as they were at that time subservient to Britain. Canada did well in WWI, but remember why they were fighting; they were dieing in the name of their British masters. When a major power has its subservient nations fight in there wars, imo credit goes to the dominant nation. I agree, Canada also did well in WWII. So good effort in two World Wars and contributing in the Boer Wars, and in Korea. But this is hardly comparable to the military histories of most of the civs in the game. With regards to UN peacekeeping forces, while its true to say that Canada is involved in Afghanistan, Canada's contribution globally dropped to 56th by 2009, and in terms of military personnel alone, even Ghana contributes more.
I disagree with you about Canada 'weathering the storm better than any other country in the World'. What about China, Australia and Singapore? While its true that Canada has been less affected than most other countries in the world, it is by no means immune to the crisis, as unemployment has risen and will continue to rise. And yes, Canada's banks seem to have done well with regards to the current financial crisis. The reason I didn't comment wasn't pride (what country would I be showing pride in here?), it was that I don't think its of major significance. I mean, in a game spanning thousands of years, Canada not being as badly affected by a global economic crisis probably isn't going to be that huge a deal. Maybe a footnote in the history books.
You're probably right about it not being too difficult for Canada to be added in given that they'd probably even be a Canadian about to do the voices. I'd guess though that if they added Canada, it would only serve to fuel the complaints of "why haven't they added country X instead of Y" that we already see so much with the Iroquois and Songhai. If they did, as you say, make a game about 'civilizations' rather 'world-power civilizations' then what civs would they include? They couldn't possibly include all of them, as they'd be thousands. Having said that, I agree with when you say that hopefully someone will mod Canada in. I know I'd have them in my games to stop the Iroquois and US from getting too big.
I don't think the arguments against Canada have anything to do with envy; I've got to play as my civ in every game so far and so I wouldn't be envious of any other civ that gets included. Despite how it might seem from my post, I'm not in any way against Canada as a nation. Its a nice country. I'm not arguing that Canada haven't made great contributions in their short history, as I know they have (I mentioned insulin). But that's the main problem though; its only had a short history and so has not had time to accomplish the same feats as other civs. As I keep saying though, I think that some day it probably will. I get that due to nationalism you're always going to see Canada in a different way to non-Canadians, just as people from any other country in the World would probably view their country differently than those who aren't from there, and so there's probably nothing that would convince you that if there are only going to be a set number of civs (18) in the game, and another set number in expansion packs, then as great as Canada is, it would be wrong to include them ahead of civs which have had a far greater impact (e.g. Mongolia, Spain, Portugal, ect.). But this is just to let you know how a non-Canadian who has no issues with Canada and no other agenda sees it.
The equivalence was not perfect, and whe can argue witch nations->civ. And about US if the the US-Americans ego permits, the US is a mix of nations not a union (now days). What I'm saing is not really integrate and there are a lot of diference and segmentations in US. And the majority of the way of living is center europe view of live there is not a "unique society" the core of the US is not really diferent to Canada, just was expansionist and have the oportunity to bright.
oh no kidding eh! guess i better retreat to my igloo via dog-sled. watch out for that light-bulb sure is melting things fast around here.
Dont worry you can borrow mine. My PolarBears and Penguins will be there waiting for you...
no offense but really Canada just isnt worthy of being in the game...
Canada is nice and much like my homeland near igloos and stuff. But still your Historical meaningless is too small...
Last edited by MaD; 07-02-2010 at 09:14 PM.
I'm sure about Canada is a great country, for economy and society; but this is only today, cause half-century ago it was really "forgotten". Perhaps Canada is too British to be a civilization. I understand the canadian position, but really you're the same civ as the British, for costumes, culture, lenguage -french is a legacy of Louis XIV-; obviously Canada is a great state, but his culture is like north-european and specially british. I hope you understad it.
I'm not so sure about that one. What about the advent of monotheism? I believe it could be largely credited to the Kingdom of Judea, and it seems that the idea of a single, all encompassing god is quite 'revolutionary'. Also, the first testament is an extremely old book, which I think deserves credit, although not of much historical value...
I bilive akenaton of egipt where the was first, and I think I that region that bilive was in growing (even start happening in the old Greece but didn't continue)
I add myself to the seemingly long list of users eager to see vikings appear as a civilization in the game. Vikings have themselves not done to many great stuff, but they had quite a unique culture and are known to many of us. Vikings are symbols of courage, war, winds and the toughest people crossing any storm on the high seas to reach the goals of their nation. The vikings are also in the teaser, I cannot believe that someone with a heart can put the vikings in a teaser and then just leave them out in the game. The teaser starts with the Vikings, it was the first thing I saw of Civilization 5, and it's the Civilization of my choice.
Vikings got the berserker units, they got fast and polite naval units. If the problem with Vikings as a civilizations is that they have little strength in the modern eras we I assume it would be a fitting strength for them to be able to get more out of naval resources such as oil and fish. Oh how I long to see the Vikings as a civilization, this must by all means be implanted.
I also noticed a small war here regarding whether or not Canadians should be a civilizations, and then someone mentioned that "Europeans" made up what became Canada, and not native Americans. The thing is that in Canada some people called "Inuits" already lived there, few in numbers. In some northern parts of Norway / Sweden / Finland / Russia (you catch the drift) the Lapps lived. Both nations had lived surrounded by a cold weather and hunting and fishing where their trade. The cultures merged perfect when about 40.000 Lapps left from the Swedish and Norwegian coasts to Canada, to explore America. They brought reindeer's (and yes, that's why Santa got reindeers) and knowledge and where greeted like heroes by the Inuits. The Lapps where nation-builders without doubts, many of you have probably heard about Baldo
If I may, inquire, what's the deal with this whole Canada thing? I don't think Canada should be an entry civ in this game, a mod would be fine as far as I'm concerned, but honestly, this is a bit much. As a Canadian who has had the opportunity to study both in Canada and abroad, I'm tired of everybody knocking us for what they don't know. Last I checked, the game from day one had been about great civilizations (shown by both those that have been included, and left out), and I think before we can argue about who gets included and who doesn't, shouldn't we be looking at what a great civilization is?
I'm sorry to say, but the United States has not been a historically dominant civilization in humankind's brief existence. In fact, the United States only really became a major superpower during the twentieth century. At this point, LESS than one hundred years, and yet the majority of Americans boast like they accomplished more then say the Greeks, Romans, etc. While I realize that most of us, regardless of country, have some patriotism in us, what exactly makes Americans so special in this regard?
On the stereotypical lists that were said regarding what Canada gave the world, what has America given it in return? Fast food, cheaply made California clothing outfitters and nuclear weapons (which, incidentally were not even American but German, similar to the thrusters used in your early rockets)? Of course they did more then that, and any American would be quick to (rightfully) point that out. Yet when a Canadian does it, our history and culture get trashed. Stereotypes are a dangerous thing, especially when the one tossing them around is not necessarily educated. For example, on Canadian involvement during the wars, yes, we fought for the British, but does it make our involvement any less important? Not in my books. As a matter of fact, I would consider it courageous that we did fight for the British regarding a cause that (initially) affected us little. We could have always tried to have an isolation policy and stay out, or we could have gotten upset and had a revolution with our own flawed declaration and constitution (for example, the clause disregarding African-Americans as people). Yet, we sucked it up and did it anyways, and, especially regarding the second World War, if not for early Canadian involvement (and later American involvement as well), the war very well could have turned out entirely differently.
I once had an American history professor in University, who was actually born and raised in the United States, and you know what? He argued that Canada was just as culturally important as the United States, just in different aspects. Furthermore, he also showed us a high school history book from a Southern state that totally excluded slavery. So please, I would very much appreciate if everybody could stop knocking the culture I'm proud of, simply because we've contributed to the world in a different way.
Though I'm sure this will simply wind up refreshing the argument.
If we're thinking along the lines of geography - as in maintaining balance when playing an earth world game - some good civs to add would be:
1. Mongols (should be there anyway) to counter China and Russia;
2. Korea, for the same reason, and to constrain Japan;
3. The Mughal Empire, to balance India; and
4. Polynesia, to colonise NZ and the Pacific (though they would be horribly isolated and difficult to play in practice).
Along the lines of 'worthiness', or cultural and historical significance, Spain, the Mongols again, Sumer, Babylon, Holland and Austria should be included. The same goes for Carthage and the Vikings.
Lastly, re the Canada thing, which I had initially thought was a joke (seriously), it's just got to be a no. Canada is simply not culturally distinct enough to justify inclusion, aside from the myriad (valid) arguments about significance.
Canada has spent their entire military history A. fighting for Britain B. fighting with the US or C. Peackeeping.
Culturally your to British to be your own civ, I mean you have the QUEEN on your coins. We gave you a chance to revolt with us we said "Hey guys we've got a eccentric French nobleman and everything! Wanna have a revolution with us?" and you said "Na' were good" and then we said "Well if you ever change your mind..." and you said "No, no, were cool".
I'm perfectly willing to discuss the inclusion of the US, if only so I can prove that we really have done enough to merit inclusion.
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ASA: Aski States of America.
It seems like there's a lot of debate on whether or not Canada should be included. So before I get to the additional civs I would like to see, let me address the topic of including Canada first.
Canada has been around for a few hundred years and it is has been culturally influential. However, I dont think Canada should be included in the lists of civs. Here's why.
Civs should be included if they left a large influence/impact on the world. Civs can be influential one of two ways: (1) militarily or/and (2) culturally. Let me address the topic of Canada's history of war. Yes (as addressed by previous people) Canada has been involved in a few wars; however, these wars (particularly in the early half of the twentieth century) were mostly fought because of threats to British sovereignty. Canada was mostly not threatened in the wars in which it participated (World War II is probably the exception although it didnt start out as such).
Next, about the topic of culture. Yes, Canada is influential culture-wise but it is only a regional culture power, while the great powers of the world (Rome, England, Spain, the United States more recently) are world-wide culturally-influential. Some commentators have questioned why the US has been included in Civs V. The answer is simple - because the United States is the world's only remaining superpower. The United States, although a relatively young nation (around 220 years old) and its influence has been for an even shorter period of time (around 65 years, from 1945 to the present) has influenced culture the world over. (The word 'culture' is loosely used in this case as some people define culture different than others.) The names of several multi-national companies which had their roots in the US are known nearly the world over (Microsoft, Boeing, IBM, GE, Wal Mart).
The reason why countries are included/excluded depends on whether or not they have had a large enough impact on the world. Sure Canada has had an impact but it is dwarfed by the impacts of other powers.
Anyways, while I'm on the topic of determining the merit of countries in order to be included on Civs, I would like to suggest a few. They are:
1. The Vikings
2. The Mongols (they would help to balance Russia and China)
3. Korea (they would help balance Russia, China, and particularly Japan)
4. Spain
5. The Polynesians (to occupy portions of Australia, New Zealand, and other Pacific islands)
6. The Inuit (would occupy Northern Canada although the inclusion of the Inuit is debatable)
7. The Incas (would occupy portions of South America although the inclusion of the Incas is debatable as well)
8. The Netherlands (they were very large at the height of their empire, controlling the majority of the East Indies, Sri Lanka, portions of South Africa, stretches of Brazilian coastline, and the Northeast Atlantic seaboard of the United States)
9. Poland (I'm specifically talking about the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, it was the precursor of a democratic state and controlled over 445,000 square miles or 1,153,000 square kilometers, they also had an unusually high amount of religious tolerance for their time)
To recap. I dont believe Canada should be included. Yes, they have influenced culture however they have not influenced culture to the extent to be included. I am not against including Canada; however, I don't see the merit in doing so. My position can be changed but I see no reason to at the present. No hard feelings to those who want Canada to be included.
Last edited by EnigmaCode; 07-04-2010 at 10:27 AM.
I would like to add that a country should be included if it was the dominant military/cultural power in the majority of its known world. This justifies the addition of Polynesians, Incas, and Inuits.
Last edited by EnigmaCode; 07-04-2010 at 01:47 AM.
Wha??? The Mughal Empire only achieved importance due to its rule over India, and cannot be called a separate civilization. In fact, any well known historian of the Early Modern period in South Asia would laugh at the suggestion that in nature, the Mughal constituted a different civilization.
I suppose it depends on whether we are talking about modern India, to which Mughal and British India were precurdors, or ancient India. I tend to think in terms of the latter for Civ purposes, which would generally support seeing the Mughal as a distinct successor civilization. However, given India's recent renaissance - and the selection of modern India's national icon in Gandhi as the leader - it may be that Civ designers are thinking more in modern India terms.
How about we split the difference and add Tibet instead. That is also a fairly bona fide civilization (despite its ultimate incorporation into China) that is in about the right place.
You don't want to upset China. Ever. Tibet is one sore subject that they seem to go berserk over... Not sure how well Civ sells in China, but Tibet in the Civ 5 would instantly ban the game, the developer, AND possibly all gaming products from the US.
Even if we could, I sort of disagree. Yeah, they're interesting and entirely unique, but were they really that influential on a world-wide scale? I have the impression that they were largely mountain people isolated from other countries.
I do realize the game includes no Central Asian civilizations at all (unless you count Persia as "Central Asian"). Mongol would be a suitable option, or maybe the Timurids! With Cannon-mounted Elephants!!!
Support Armenia,cause we are the nation that fined the wheel the metallurgy and trading forming the silken root all way to China hence the Apricot that is coming from there..Yes people We in ancient times were travelers and traders..First east Company in India is made from Armenians,winery is coming from Armenians,recent archeologist indicate that Mesopotamian civilizations is originated from Armenians..we people are us ancient as you can get..is not far fetching if i say all the europeans are coming from immigrations from Armenia..The first Cristian Church build there the first nation that Adopted Christianity us national religion and only centurys later our fellow Greeks and romans will do the same.
Also horse braiding is coming from Armenia and not Persia as i see here..our horses is the first in ancient times used as tool for war..we were honored in ranks of immortals,romans praised us for our cavalrymen, Byzantines army were formed from Armenian generals and troops that were the majority of it,half of Byzantium dynasties were Armenian decent half of the empire were Armenia.
We with unique civilization influence European architecture churches and castles and goth stile is originated from Armenian architecture..our ancient symbols stile give us pride and guidance,we do not forget our pre-Cristian era.
We have some life saving inventions in medicine and life killing such us Mig's.
Our scientist made great progress in atomic science,in painting we got our famous Aivazofski.Armenian were the great chess player that lost and then beet deep blue.Rubiks cube..and many other stuff...maybe you forget mister 5% the man that earned 5% of worlds oil yeas he is Armenian.musical instruments foods all unique.
If u like i can say more of Armenian inventions in technology that you would never imagine that is Armenian one,so please ask me.
Cause we after all this time the first ones seems to be also the last of ancient peoples surviving till this day not changed our identity.
http://www.armenianhighland.com/ ..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Vcf3WJKVY a video from our modern inventors
Last edited by NobleHye; 07-07-2010 at 06:30 AM.
That's an odd image... elephant-mounted cannon, perhaps?... maybe the Timurids! With Cannon-mounted Elephants!!!
I think that the spread of civilizations for vanilla Civilization 5 is excellent. With expansions I am sure that there will be plenty of faction diversity. Ergo I am not that worried. I definitely plan to invest in Civ 5 once a more complete edition comes out. I'm quite happy seeing Songhai and Siam. They are good replacements or perhaps additions to Mali and Khmer. In Songhai's case I am almost sure that it's a replacement since Songhai directly supplanted Mali, but was just overall more significant. Some personal civ suggestions for the expansions would be as follows.
The Obvious (should need no explanation for why they are worthy)-
Mongols
Spain
Norse/Vikings
Incans
Mayans
Zulu/Bantu
Korea
The Not so Obvious (with some explanations)-
Ethiopia: This was by far my favorite addition of Civilization 4. Ethiopia is a really underrated civilization in Africa with a very bizarre and unique history. What strikes them apart from other civilizations, in my opinion, is the fact that they survived European domination during the Imperial Age, beating back the Italians at Adowa. I think King Menelik II would be a better leader for them. Same UU as before is good for them, since it represents Ethiopia's eminence post-gunpowder age. For a unique building they could have carved stone churches. For a unique ability, they could have reduced research costs for techs that have already been researched by another faction. Thus they would be able to play catch-up!
Israel: Kinda found it weird how Civ 4 had Judaism as a religion but no Israel! Israel is a cool civilization to add because it has reached its highest importance in modern times. Thus they could have unique units in the form of tanks and ground infantry in the modern era. This sets them apart from many other potential civilizations in the game. Israel has one of the most advanced armies in the world currently. It also has an ancient history consisting of a few minor theocratic Jewish kingdoms. It would not be hard at all to make them stand out from the others. I would say their emphasis should be on military with maybe a sub-focus on finances.
Vietnam: They gave China, Cambodia, France and the US trouble at one point or another! I think having two Southeast Asian civs (the other being Siam) would be great! Southeast Asia is always underrepresented in these sorts of things. I'm pretty clueless about unique units since Siam's already packing the pachyderms though!
Poland: Ok, I admit that this one's kind of far-out. I'm going to be honest. I want them for one reason only: Winged Hussars! Those would be an awesome UU! If not Poland, Portugal, the Dutch or both would be the best additional Eurofactions, I think.
Canada: Canada has a lot of potential as a civ in my opinion. For unique units they could have mountees. If they don't have a unique building, they could also have avro arrow bombers in the modern eras. Their leader could be Pierre Trudeau.
People who say that Canada is not important in the world don't really know what they are talking about! It may not be as significant as the United States, but it is still a significant modern country. They fought in World War 2 and have been an important ally of the United States since. Before then, the United States occasionally tried to invade Canada with no success!
Byzantium: While they may have no relevance today, this kingdom lasted for a long, long time. By some estimates, more than a millennium! For unique units they can have greek fire ships! Their leader can be Justinian or Theodora (if a change is desired). Their unique building can be a hippodrome or domed church.
Last edited by SlickSlicer; 07-04-2010 at 10:21 PM.
While I appreciate the attempt at historical accuracy and the justification by the developers and the players for the exclusion and inclusion of certain civilizations we forget that this is a game... a what if kind of game:
The American "civilization" existed 3000 BC? That's a HUGE "what if". Is it more of a stretch that the Canadian "civilization" existed at 3000 BC? What if the Aztec built the great wall of China... What if the first atomic bomb was developed by the Russians.... What if Wolverine fought Conan?
I like that fact that they have first nations represented in the new game. It's a break from the usual. Besides, I think they maybe looking at it from a developers point of view. Develop a large body of different civs originally, then in expansions they can easily add the Sioux or Inca's because they can uses the same graphics set as the Iroquois or the Aztecs respectively.
Here's my list of civ's I'd like to see in an expansion pack:
Hebrew
Dutch
Inuit
Spain
Inca
Another First Nation Tribe, like the Sioux or Apache
Koreans
Perhaps they could even do an expansion pack to include nations that are offshoots of other nations or even DLC.
Australia
Canada
Cuba
Japan
etc
That's my two cents and let me tell you it's worth more than your two cents
SlickSlicer and redhanz, great insights into additional civs! I honestly think that the lists of civs that you have requested are pretty thorough. Even so, I would like to talk about the civs I would like to see.
First the civs that I think are the most important to add:
Spain
Vikings/Norse
Mongols
Korea
Incas
Mayans
Zulu
Next I'll talk about the civs that I would like to see.
Israel: Israel has been important in ancient as well as modern times. The creation of monotheism in Israel should be enough merit of itself to have Israel included. Israel was the founding place of two major monotheistic religions (Judaism and Christianity), and it is considered a holy land by all three of the world's major monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). Israel has also been important in ancient Middle Eastern geopolitics. After embarking on a eries of land campaigns, Israel was conquered by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Sassasanians, and the Byzantines. The importance of Israel is demonstrated by the amount of soldiers who fought in both the Bark Kohkba Rebellion and the Crusades (the Muslims controlled Jerusalem and the "Holy Land" and the Crusaders wanted to regain control of it among other reasons). Israel has also played a major role in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries as well (the Six Day War, Yom-Kippur War, and continued Israeli-Palistinian tensions). So Israel should definitely be included. Israel could be lead by either King David or Solomon, depending on whether the developers wanted a more war-like or diplomatic Israel.
Poland: As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think Poland should be included. Poland (and more specifically the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) has been very important in Eastern European history. Not only were they the precursor of a modern democracy, they helped to prevent an Ottoman takeover of Vienna. The Polish unique unit should be the Winged Hussars, and Poland should be lead by either Mieszko I, John III Sobieski, or Leszek Balcerowics.
Austria: Austria (and specifically Austria-Hungary) was a major power of Europe. They controlled 261,243 square miles (676,615 square kilometers) and were very influential at their height. Austria's leader should be one of the Hasburgs and it's unique units should be light cavalry and bowsman with reflex bows.
The Netherlands: They were very large at the height of their empire, controlling the majority of the East Indies, Sri Lanka, portions of South Africa, stretches of Brazilian coastline, and the Northeast Atlantic seaboard of the United States. The Netherlands should be lead by one of the Prince of Orange.
Ethiopia: I believe that Ethiopia is a generally underappreciated country/civilization. The oldest continuous independent country in Africa, Ethiopia has a rich culture and history. The unique building of Ethiopia should be either a stele (King Ezana's Stele) or a palace (Dungur). Ethiopia could be lead by either the Queen of Sheba or Tewodros II.
Vietnam: Again, a country that I believe is under-appreciated. Southeast Asia has been, I believe, under-represented (the addition of Siam has been a good step in the right direction). Vietnam has been point of contention for thousands of years (whether it be the Chinese, Mongols, French, Americans, or the Soviet Union) and it seems only fitting to add them into a future Civ. Vietnam should be lead by either Ngo Quyen or a leader in the Tran Dynasty.
Canada and Australia: I said in an earlier post that I didn't believe that Canada had enough merit to be included. Well, I now believe that Canada should be included if Australia is included as well. Including Canada without Australia would be a disgrace to Australia. Both countries have a rich history of exploration, both were part of the British Empire, both participated to World War I and World War II, and both are influential in their respective spheres of influence. Canada should be lead by Samuel de Champlain although I'm unsure of great Canadian or Australian leaders.
Polynesia: Polynesia (or more specifically the Polynesian peoples) have a rich culture and lifestyle. Colonizing islands thousands of miles apart, the Polynesians were masters of the seas;the Polynesians would occupy New Zealand and the Pacific islands (they would be very isolated though) Their unique unit should be a simple fishing canoe with an outrigger.
Inuits: The Inuit are a very unique people and they should be included if Canada is not included. They would occupy the northern edges of Quebec/Nunavut and the area between Quebec and Greenland. Their unique unit should be the qamutik or the umiak. Their unique building could be an igloo (though that would be a terrible stereotyping of their people).
Sioux: They were a relatively powerful Native American tribe, occupying much of the Dakotas and surrounding plains. The Sioux could be lead by either Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse. Their unique building could be a teepee. However, the Sioux could be replaced with the Apache or any other First Nation.
And that's pretty much what I would like to see in future Civs. I think that this is a pretty thorough list of civilzations/leaders/units/buildings. If you can help me add to my information please reply to this.
Last edited by EnigmaCode; 07-05-2010 at 09:58 AM.
Omg Armenia played a Big role in Crusades ...did yo know that most of the engineering were done by Armenians?All the god dam siege weapons we build by Armenians...For love of god we got symbols like more ancient from zvastiga..we also have contributed big for the Ethiopians..did you see what Armenians have invented?Or what big personality Armenia had...
And i also support Israel civ......pls support for an Armenian one..or i gonna mod them if they are not in....
Byzantium? Where would it be located? The Mediterranean seems a bit crowded already. Between the Romans, Greeks, Ottomans, and Egyptians, there doesn't seem to be enough space to fit Byzantium.
I agree it would be interesting to have Byzantium; however, Byzantium (Byzantine Empire) is also called the Eastern Roman Empire for a reason. Wouldn't it be redundant to add yet another empire where so many civilizations are already located?
Last edited by EnigmaCode; 07-05-2010 at 09:44 AM.
I always forget about Australia, but they're just like Canada and have similar potential as a more modern civ. Plus it's just cool to cover various areas of the world other than just Europe. I'd love to see Jan Sobieski III too. he was one of poland's best.
Where are the Celts? Folks this civilization had been around since 1000 BC.
In 390 BC they Sack Rome.
The Celts inhabited what is modern day France, Belgium, Switzerland, Northern Italy, England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland.
Areas of modern Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia.
The Celts settled in Dacia, Thrace, Illyria, the highlands of Antolia.
Early inventions that i know of Chainmail, Noric Steel produced in Noricum(a federation of 12 celtic tribes), Trousers.
Where are the Celts? Folks this civilization had been around since 1000 BC.
In 390 BC they Sack Rome.
The Celts inhabited what is modern day France, Belgium, Switzerland, Northern Italy, England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland.
Areas of modern Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia.
The Celts settled in Dacia, Thrace, Illyria, the highlands of Antolia.
Early inventions that i know of Chainmail, Noric Steel produced in Noricum(a federation of 12 celtic tribes), Trousers.
A truely magnificent civilization.
They still exist today in the Western highlands and islands of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Isle of Man, Brittany.
The Celts have faught the Greeks, Romans, Turks, German tribes, Picts, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Vikings, Norman, English etc etc the list goes on.
Last edited by Lord of the Isles; 07-05-2010 at 10:13 AM.
My expansion list
Celts
Mongols
Vikings
Mayan
Zulu
Spain
Dutch
Korea
Austro-Hungarian Empire
Some day, when the next expansion arrives, the Spanish flag will be removed and a portrait of Carlos I (Charles V of the HRE) will replace it! Mwah ha ha! (Or Isabella, but I'm not sure.)
Lord of the Isles, I would argue the problem with the celts is that they are a 'culture' rather than a civilization. There is a difference. The celts never developed any political unity, they are like the Greeks without the Athenian hegemony or Alexander.
I quite like the suggestion of Armenia for geographic purposes. They are sort of in the right place to balance Russia, China and India. The Polynesians are also a must geographically, as I have noted before. This overcomes the problem that they are also a culture rather than a civilization. And they could have early seagoing canoes, which would be a rocking UU.
Slickslicer, I agree that you cannot have Canada without Australia (disclosure: I'm Australian); my view would be you have neither rather than both. But it would set up an interesting dichotomy leader-wise between Pierre Trudeau of Canada and Robert Menzies of Australia.
The celts are not a huge wish of mine, but they would not be entirely bad. Consider also that the Mayans did not have a unified state either, but are still considered one of the most impressive civilizations in Mesoamerica. I don't think that disunity alone should bar them from inclusion. Civilization IV already showed two impressive Celtic military leaders. There is also Vercingetorix, who for a time united the Gauls and resisted Julius Caesar.
The main thing I have against the Celts is simply that I believe there are far more worthy additions.
The Sioux tribes are probably the second best Native American civilization to add. I would say to differentiate them from Civilization IV, their leader could be Red Cloud instead of Sitting Bull. Red Cloud was a more successful military leader anyways. Sitting Bull was more like the Gandhi of his people. He certainly has merits, but I believe that change is good. Crazy Horse could appear as a great general if Civ 5 retains that feature. Anybody who has read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee knows what an amazing tactician that guy was.
Last edited by SlickSlicer; 07-05-2010 at 11:49 AM.
Wha??? They're all the way on the other side of the Middle East. How does that affect India and China at all?
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