question on walkin on ai cap early

[ShowtekGER]

i was told that the ai builds a warrior in 3500BC and 3000BC. now, i get the russians, move my settler and stand on a hill besides ai tripoli in 3500BC. there is no warrior in their cap and i am pretty sure i checked all abutting tiles with a-dar. in 3400BC they have a warrior in there. so, what should i do? walk away and attack later on? can i get them to move that warrior out of tripolis again? i took the risk, attacked and won 1.5-1.5. but isn't there a more secure way to get that cap so early on?

[dukeblue1987]

It really would be nice for someone to post a guide on how to abuse the AI. Everything from walk-ins, to selling tech, threats, taking settlers, taking caps, harvesting GP, etc etc. I know the information is out there but it is spread out all over the place and incomplete.

To answer the original question, I think once you make contact with most civs they will walk their warrior right back to their cap (or the newly built warrior will stay there). It is best to try to make contact as late as possible when you think you can take the cap.

But I am not an AI expert, some of the GOTW guys can probably answer better. TyShine has pretty good AI knowledge too.

[REM018]

They build a warrior in 3500 BC "their" time, which means after your 3500 BC turn ended, since your turn is first.

If you make contact, they will keep the warrior in the cap. If not, then they walk out. Just wait until 3300BC, walk over, make contact and walk into empty cap, assuming they the AI moved the warrior 2 squares away in the same direction. That part you can not control, but the AI usually does.

The whole plan fails if the warrior moves towards you. Then the AI will move it back.

[MorteEterna]

I always take a cap in 3500 BC, they have no units in the city. It's so funny

Maybe it could be even easier if I use zulu but they are slow if you can't take capitals

[ScottieX]

Abusing the AI eh...

you can use a milita to get your 25g from the threat to the AI if you get it there before they have built units and you can easily get milita by settling next to barbarians. You could also block a production square if you calculate that it will help.

Also fun is using a settler to hold open the AI walkout. In certain situations you can get them to declare war on you to get your settler but not actually take it and leave the cap open.

Ahh that poor AI is like a lamb to the slaughter.

[danthechan]

i, being the more cautious type, will first consider what it will take to get a wa to the enemy before trying the 1.5-1.5. if you lose that it will for sure take an army and even then it might not work by the time you get there.

[elthrasher]

i, being the more cautious type, will first consider what it will take to get a wa to the enemy before trying the 1.5-1.5. if you lose that it will for sure take an army and even then it might not work by the time you get there.

Stop being so cautious. I win these all the time. I win 1-1.5 a lot as well. It's so worth it.

[ShowtekGER]

It really would be nice for someone to post a guide on how to abuse the AI. Everything from walk-ins, to selling tech, threats, taking settlers, taking caps, harvesting GP, etc etc. I know the information is out there but it is spread out all over the place and incomplete.

yup, agreed, that would be nice.

They build a warrior in 3500 BC "their" time, which means after your 3500 BC turn ended, since your turn is first.

this doesn't make sense to me. but they get their first warrior in 3400BC as a matter of fact?

you can use a milita to get your 25g from the threat to the AI if you get it there before they have built units and you can easily get milita by settling next to barbarians. You could also block a production square if you calculate that it will help.

settling next to barbarians gives you a militia only in sp.

[ShowtekGER]

to make things more clear: i did not know where tripolis was. i found it by accident by walking onto a hill besides the city in 3500BC.

Stop being so cautious. I win these all the time. I win 1-1.5 a lot as well. It's so worth it.

if possible i try 1-1.5 all the time. i lose a whole lot of these (i'd say 80-90%). but it probably still pays off in the long run.

[elthrasher]

if possible i try 1-1.5 all the time. i lose a whole lot of these (i'd say 80-90%). but it probably still pays off in the long run.

It helps if you use a mic and cry out "BY THE POWER OF HASSLEHOFF MAKE THIS CITY MINE!"

[sn1p3rk1ll3]

It helps if you use a mic and cry out "BY THE POWER OF HASSLEHOFF MAKE THIS CITY MINE!"

Chuck Norris compells you to grant me your city!

[elthrasher]

Chuck Norris compells you to grant me your city!

Yeah, basically you need a really good battle cry to get anything done.

[dukeblue1987]

Yeah, basically you need a really good battle cry to get anything done.

Shhh... they might figure out that all this "fluff" we talk about on here is only to mask the secret of our power

[danthechan]

Yeah, basically you need a really good battle cry to get anything done.

i'm pretty sure i've heard the "oh mighty isis" cry during at least one of our games.

[ScottieX]

settling next to barbarians gives you a militia only in sp.

Ahh stink... Hmm I wonder what else is different and would trip me up on MP games...

I was already thinking for a few tricks It would help to sell the AI bronze working for them to work the way I am most familiar with.

[danthechan]

Ahh stink... Hmm I wonder what else is different and would trip me up on MP games...

I was already thinking for a few tricks It would help to sell the AI bronze working for them to work the way I am most familiar with.

the first thing you will have to adjust to is the human element. the ai becomes very predictable, and people are anything but by comparison. keep a good attitude, absorb what you learn, and you will be competing in no time.

[REM018]

Originally Posted by REM018
They build a warrior in 3500 BC "their" time, which means after your 3500 BC turn ended, since your turn is first.

this doesn't make sense to me. but they get their first warrior in 3400BC as a matter of fact?

The AI is building a warrior in 3500BC. But when your screen is showing 3500BC, they do not have the warrior yet, because it is your turn first. So you can walk in at 3500 BC even though the AI is building a warrior in 3500BC - make sense?

That is what I meant by "their" time. If you make contact in 3500BC, they will leave the warrior that is build in 3500 BC after your turn is over in the cap.

So for you, the warrior's existence only matters in 3400 BC, but is being built in 3500 BC.


3500 BC works for most civs. Greece tends to build a hoplite by 3200 BC or so. Egypt w/ HGB has a unit in there quickly. Same for China. And not sure if Aztecs AI buys a warrior right away or not.

[danthechan]

And not sure if Aztecs AI buys a warrior right away or not.

no, they save it and use it to bribe humans for peace, or to make overnight loans to other a.i. civs that feel threatened.

[elthrasher]

And not sure if Aztecs AI buys a warrior right away or not.

It certainly does sometimes, at least, but a walk-in is still possible if you get there really fast. Probably have to be Zulu or have a really fast horse (that's a gallop-in though).

The other thing to note is that the one thing that will keep an AI warrior from heading home is a barb. I've had the AI attack a 2 flag barb instead of stepping back into its city when I have a warrior right next to the AI cap. It takes the flag down and leaves me the city. Pretty nice.

So if you find an AI warrior and a barb really early on, it can pay to walk past the barb and try to get to that city before a second warrior is produced. Also hopefully before that barb is finished because the AI will rush the warrior with gold if you're standing right next to its city.

[ScottieX]

the first thing you will have to adjust to is the human element. the ai becomes very predictable, and people are anything but by comparison. keep a good attitude, absorb what you learn, and you will be competing in no time.

yeah but I'm a bit weird.

My big problem with multiplayer is more that I get a bit over stressed. Against a good player* I go a little crazy making all these inferences. Not sure MP is my thing... Well unless I decide to go for the americans like morte, try to play a perfect game and kill everyone early, but i sense some animosity towards american players.

That, and that at any moment I might get kicked off the PS3 for some reason or other and get killed/have to quit.

* other players are crushed easily with a lazy strategy. Even if you dont understand the MP quirks killing a noob or even semi noob is childs play.

[danthechan]

yes, but if you keep playing a light will come on at some point and you will increase your rate of improvement. its kind of what nfl players say after they have been in the league a few years. the game slows down for them based on their comfort and knowledge of what is going on around them.

[Hellogoodbye123]

Chuck Norris compells you to grant me your city!

i just think im gonna win.. and i practically win all the time..

on the ones mathematically my way.. like 9v8 etc..

i consider myself pretty lucky.. i won a 12.5v30 my archers.. no vet.. versus japanese vet knights..on a hill... i even felt bad...i wanted to give him the city, by empting the city, but we called it a game.. since he lost his knights, he would lose momentum...

[Aemon Al Caar]

I woul listen to El on the whole battle cry thing. He used it to save a horsearmy of his I attacked when it was a 6-3.

[elthrasher]

I woul listen to El on the whole battle cry thing. He used it to save a horsearmy of his I attacked when it was a 6-3.

Yeah, also used a the trick described upthread to take Rome in the first game. I did the normal thing with the Aztecs and rushed a warrior. In 3600 I saw the outlines of Rome. If I approached at 3500, there'd be a warrior there and it wouldn't move, so I stayed put for two turns and approached in 3300 to shake hands with Caesar. In 3200 I took the city and as I did so, I saw the first Roman warrior heading back home, but he was two moves away when I made contact. Approach at 3200 or 3100 BC. That gets you the city.

[Aheadatime]

To answer the OP, you want to avoid making contact between 3500-3300. If you can get there 3600 or 3700, you can walk in easily before he has a unit up. If you show up around 3500 or 3400, hell keep his newly built unit in the base or move it back into the base respectively. So if youre a bit late to the city (3500ish), than do as thrasher said and wait until 3300 or 3200. That way, his warrior will have gone off in some direction for 2 or 3 tiles, and the walk-in is yours, since he doesnt have enough time to walk back.

Other than that, its just a bit of luck. If you stumble upon him early like what happened to you, than hell stay put. If he moves his first warrior out and it just so happens to go in your direction, hell turn it right around and stay put. You just have to stay hidden and know when to head in.

Btw, the time thing is a bit weird. He builds his first warrior in 3500BC, this is true, but false in a sense. See, he gets his warrior at the very end of 3500BC, when all the humans have readied up. So to us it looks like he got it in 3400BC. In other words, if youre standing 1 tile from his cap in 3500, therell be noone in it. If you wait until the end of the turn, youll see a unit spawn at the end of the turn, but its still technically 3500.

[Hellogoodbye123]

does the host get any benefit in battles?

because i won most close battles, when i played showtek, and he accused everything on me being the host..

[ShowtekGER]

because i won most close battles, when i played showtek, and he accused everything on me being the host..

not the close battles. but in situations in which both opponents want to attack each other, the host is allowed to attack when both press X simultaneously. at one point you attacked with your HA from a hill my HA but i pressed X at the same time. and there was something else. nevermind. we're all hosts and not host from time to time. as we all know, this is only one unfair advantage the host gets but we have to live with it.

today i discovered the greek ai in 3400BC and made peace in the same turn being two tiles away. the city was undefended and i checked a-dar - no units were sent out. i walked in in 3200BC. very strange.

[Salmeen10]

not the close battles. but in situations in which both opponents want to attack each other, the host is allowed to attack when both press X simultaneously. at one point you attacked with your HA from a hill my HA but i pressed X at the same time. and there was something else. nevermind. we're all hosts and not host from time to time. as we all know, this is only one unfair advantage the host gets but we have to live with it.

today i discovered the greek ai in 3400BC and made peace in the same turn being two tiles away. the city was undefended and i checked a-dar - no units were sent out. i walked in in 3200BC. very strange.

Not really. They start with building hoplites so they get their first unit in 3200bc. Though I have seen the greek AI once try to be a smartass and defended with a warrior that lost easily to my HA.

[Pedal2Metal]

i was told that the ai builds a warrior in 3500BC and 3000BC. now, i get the russians, move my settler and stand on a hill besides ai tripoli in 3500BC. there is no warrior in their cap and i am pretty sure i checked all abutting tiles with a-dar. in 3400BC they have a warrior in there. so, what should i do? walk away and attack later on? can i get them to move that warrior out of tripolis again? i took the risk, attacked and won 1.5-1.5. but isn't there a more secure way to get that cap so early on?

Others have answered your question about when but there is also variance based on AI. For example, some civ will build a warrior but won't move it out (I think it's China but not 100% certain, I'd have to ask my son who's asleep right now). Aztecs will do normal thing unless you introduce yourself in which case they rush whatever they can. Normally, they save it for their first archer & then build an archer army quickly. So not only does turn need to be taken into account but the AI civ specifically as well. Spain will basically never build an archer army until roughly 0 which is why they are always prime candidates for bullying. As noted earlier, the Greeks won't have anything until 3200 BC due to building a hoplite, etc....

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Salmeen10]

Others have answered your question about when but there is also variance based on AI. For example, some civ will build a warrior but won't move it out (I think it's China but not 100% certain, I'd have to ask my son who's asleep right now). Aztecs will do normal thing unless you introduce yourself in which case they rush whatever they can. Normally, they save it for their first archer & then build an archer army quickly. So not only does turn need to be taken into account but the AI civ specifically as well. Spain will basically never build an archer army until roughly 0 which is why they are always prime candidates for bullying. As noted earlier, the Greeks won't have anything until 3200 BC due to building a hoplite, etc....

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Im not sure about the aztecs though. Today I was zulu and found them in 3600 and their warrior already named a tile and was 2 tiles away from their cap. They had the second warrior next turn. You are right about chinese, they dont move their first unit out. I dont think they explore before legions.

The weakest AI is the japanese. They build 2 warriors then tech/grow and never build an archer before 30 turns or so and they wont build an army unless you declared war for a long time.

[ShowtekGER]

well, when i attacked the french ai today well beyond 2000BC they still only had their two warriors in paris. i think it all depends on how long the ai is left alone. i think i also found the ai only defending with warrior at 0 AD and such.
another case is when a human player leaves. the ai which takes over will defend very poorly for a lot of turns.

[elthrasher]

Im not sure about the aztecs though. Today I was zulu and found them in 3600 and their warrior already named a tile and was 2 tiles away from their cap. They had the second warrior next turn. You are right about chinese, they dont move their first unit out. I dont think they explore before legions.

Yeah, I've seen evidence that the Aztecs at least sometimes send that first warrior out in 4000. I've also found Beijing with an archer army up and several barbs right next door untouched before, which is pretty weird.

The weakest AI is the japanese. They build 2 warriors then tech/grow and never build an archer before 30 turns or so and they wont build an army unless you declared war for a long time.

A lot of the time Japan will research Iron Working and start building legions without building any archers, which is why they are so easy to take. As long as your attacking army can survive a 2 attack counter, you're in.

Maybe weirdest was some FFA game a few months ago where I rolled up on AI Tripoli in exactly 2000 BC with a horse army and it was empty. I haven't seen that before. It wasn't a case where a player had quit, although a lot of the time when a player quits, the AI that takes over is extra, extra stupid. If the player leaves his cap empty and working sea tiles or grass, the AI won't move those workers right away, so even if you walk slowly up with a warrior, you can usually have the city for free.

In some other cases, I've found AI cities very late like 0 AD with just a single warrior defending, but that's probably because they do the stupid walkout thing and have an archer army protecting a settler.

I think the reason the AI acts so dumb is shown when you make early contact and ask to discuss world events. "I think we are the only civilizations in the world, but I could be wrong about that." Until the AI makes contact with somebody, it thinks it's the only civilization in the world, so what does it need archers for?

[HydroDragon]

I think the reason the AI acts so dumb is shown when you make early contact and ask to discuss world events. "I think we are the only civilizations in the world, but I could be wrong about that." Until the AI makes contact with somebody, it thinks it's the only civilization in the world, so what does it need archers for?

To defend against the barbarians obviously!

I've heard the A.I say stuff like 'Have you visited the new french city of Marseilles?' or something and when I ask them to elaborate they say 'I think we are the only civilizations in the world'....WTF Lincoln, suffering from amnesia?

[Aheadatime]

To defend against the barbarians obviously!

I've heard the A.I say stuff like 'Have you visited the new french city of Marseilles?' or something and when I ask them to elaborate they say 'I think we are the only civilizations in the world'....WTF Lincoln, suffering from amnesia?

Lol or when they kill your warrior and say "Your puny keshik was no match"

[Pedal2Metal]

well, when i attacked the french ai today well beyond 2000BC they still only had their two warriors in paris. i think it all depends on how long the ai is left alone..

Yep, that's another key factor too. Also if you do the "threaten for 25g thing", since it's guaranteed peace the AI "goes soft" as well. So it's no loss to do this & just bring the horsearmy 10 turns later.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Pedal2Metal]

Yeah, I've seen evidence that the Aztecs at least sometimes send that first warrior out in 4000. I've also found Beijing with an archer army up and several barbs right next door untouched before, which is pretty weird.



A lot of the time Japan will research Iron Working and start building legions without building any archers, which is why they are so easy to take. As long as your attacking army can survive a 2 attack counter, you're in.

Maybe weirdest was some FFA game a few months ago where I rolled up on AI Tripoli in exactly 2000 BC with a horse army and it was empty. I haven't seen that before. It wasn't a case where a player had quit, although a lot of the time when a player quits, the AI that takes over is extra, extra stupid. If the player leaves his cap empty and working sea tiles or grass, the AI won't move those workers right away, so even if you walk slowly up with a warrior, you can usually have the city for free.

In some other cases, I've found AI cities very late like 0 AD with just a single warrior defending, but that's probably because they do the stupid walkout thing and have an archer army protecting a settler.

I think the reason the AI acts so dumb is shown when you make early contact and ask to discuss world events. "I think we are the only civilizations in the world, but I could be wrong about that." Until the AI makes contact with somebody, it thinks it's the only civilization in the world, so what does it need archers for?

Yep, the Aztecs thing may be only on GOTW which definitely changes the AI. The qualitative point is that the AI civ matters. Some "archer-up" quickly, some don't. When they find any other civ matters as Showtek mentioned as well. If you find an AI on an island & they haven't found anyone else, I can almost guarantee they've got 1-2 units max in their cap.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zefelius]

Great thread. These basic ideas can make a hell of a difference in a game. Having two caps instead of one in the 3000s is a major advantage. I know I used to never move my settler months ago and players from these boards would routinely have a cap in the 3000s with non-power civs. It was like clockwork. I finally realized it wasn't that they just happened to get lucky walk-in's during my games, but such patterns were indicative of a strategic approach. I think it partly has to do with settler moving and also knowing the good dates for walk-in's.

[TyShine]

What about ai walk outs? I don't play Gotw but i know they take out archer armies. If I can spare it I will plant a ha ouside waiting and I know if I can get them 100 g sometimes they will walk out. I've got a pretty good feel for what each ai will have in their city as some do archer up quicker than others, but I don't always know when they will walk out.

[Pedal2Metal]

What about ai walk outs? I don't play Gotw but i know they take out archer armies. If I can spare it I will plant a ha ouside waiting and I know if I can get them 100 g sometimes they will walk out. I've got a pretty good feel for what each ai will have in their city as some do archer up quicker than others, but I don't always know when they will walk out.

Deity GOTW they will walk out usually in the 2400-2000 BC range. In MP, this doesn't typically happen in that timeframe. Additionally, I've only seen the AI walk out an entire archer army on rare occasions in MP. Normally they'll use singles. The best way to do this is simply watch the pop count & when it drops, a walkout is probably imminent.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zefelius]

Speaking of the walk-out, if I understand it correctly, do you guys think it is better to close off AIs from your territory or give them some room to expand?

I was playing Jack recently in a fun unranked game and when the Germans, who weren't far away, sent out a settler I thought it could be a good thing. Nicely enough, they sent him just a couple spaces away from where I was making my first cat army so then when they settled next to me not only was I able to grab the city but also vet up pretty quickly. But other times I hate it when AI units are roaming around too closely.