So...did Eleanor love her mother or not?

[Big Bad Sister]

Much ado has been made about the relationship between Eleanor Lamb and Delta, and less attention has focused on the relationship between Eleanor Lamb and Sofia Lamb (aside from how abusive Sofia was to Eleanor).

Eleanor gave Sofia a breather when Sofia was drowning, even though Sofia had almost certainly killed Delta (in the good ending, at least). To me, this seems to be proof that she cared for her mother on some personal level, though we never do learn much about their relationship.

What do you think?

[B17gunner98th]

Well, in my opinion she didn't give her the breather because she loved her but becuase Delta through his actions taught her to be good. I honestly don't think she loved her but cared for her well being as another person.

“Life has taught me that respect, caring and love must be shared, for it's only through sharing that friendships are born.”

-Donna A. Favors

[BIG_DADDY#9]

I think Eleanor still loved her mother but i also agree she only showed mercy because Delta taught her to. We may dislike our parents but can we truly ever hate them especially our mothers?

[Big Bad Sister]

Well, in my opinion she didn't give her the breather because she loved her but becuase Delta through his actions taught her to be good. I honestly don't think she loved her but cared for her well being as another person.

But if that were the case, she had the option of just letting Sofia swim to the surface of the water herself to get a breath of air. She didn't do that; rather, she made sure to give her a breather so that she could breathe.

Also, in the neutral ending, Eleanor shows regret for having killed her mother, and actually desires to have Sofia with her so that she wouldn't be alone in the world (since Delta has chosen to die). Even if Sofia was abusive to her, she was still her mother and the woman who raised her and rescued her from becoming a Big Sister. There certainly is a bond between them that hasn't been broken, whatever Lamb may have done.

[Winterkid]

There's a difference between not liking someone and hating them. I know that sounds a bit odd, but I can give you an example.

My aunt (who lives in another province) does things that make me mental, even though she knows I HATE it.
I still love my aunt, she's family and I care what happens to her, I just don't like her.

EDIT: I still forgive the cow for doing those things too.

[I-ChooseTheImpossible]

Everyone, be they fictional or real loves their mother, they may not like them, but they sure as hell love them.

[Z008MJ]

Everyone, be they fictional or real loves their mother, they may not like them, but they sure as hell love them.

There are limits, though.

[Crezth]

Everyone, be they fictional or real loves their mother, they may not like them, but they sure as hell love them.

I agree. I think in a few ways we don't see, Eleanor is fond of Sofia. Though whether she actually loves Sofia depends on Delta's actions - forgiveness is a type of love, after all, for humanity in all its strata.

[MetroidJunkie2008]

"I loved my Mother, and I didn't want to hurt her but, after what she did to us, she gave up her right to exist"

I don't know if that's the exact quote but she says something like this in the good ending if you kill all the NPC's but save all the little sisters and Eleanor kills Sofia.

[Eleanorgirl]

She probably didn't at all.
Eleanor loved Delta like a father.<333
She hated Sofia. lol

[mehe]

I can't help but to think, what was Delta's opinion on the whole matter? haha
I mean he's just this guy with no memory of his past which was never even emotionally tied to eleanor in the first place waking up in some random spot only to find out that he has to go through this whole city to get to a girl that absolutely adores him and finally die anyway.

[Deep Diver]

I agree with the rest. She probably did it because Delta taught her to be good.

[General Goose]

I don't think she did. Sofia failed to create any real human bonds between her and Eleanor, treating her like a test subject, and at best a student or a valuable possession, from the outset. The reason Eleanor saves Sofia in some of the better endings is because she is showing forgiveness as Delta taught her, not daughterly love.

[Big Bad Sister]

I don't think she did. Sofia failed to create any real human bonds between her and Eleanor, treating her like a test subject, and at best a student or a valuable possession, from the outset. The reason Eleanor saves Sofia in some of the better endings is because she is showing forgiveness as Delta taught her, not daughterly love.

But remember: in the neutral ending, Eleanor expresses regret for having killed Sofia. "The Rapture dream is over, and in waking, I am alone. Mother I left behind..." She clearly misses her mother. Why would she miss her mother if she did not love her?

If she does kill Sofia, she turns on Delta and accuses him of making her into a “monster.” She contemptuously informs Delta that he taught her that it was OK for her to do wrong when she kills Sofia. In the neutral ending, it’s not Delta who taught Eleanor to forgive; it’s Sofia Lamb. Eleanor knew that Sofia forgave Stanley Poole, and she’s disgusted with herself for not having the same attitude toward her mother. Why would she give any esteem to Sofia’s actions if she did not love Sofia as a daughter loves her mother?

And even if Sofia Lamb’s parenting was unconventional, to say the least (at least according to North American standards – I grew up in an Asian household and this is exactly the kind of parenting I received), Eleanor clearly had a bond to her mother, enough to threaten to report Stanley to Sofia when he abused her money.

Eleanor did love her mother, even if Delta did not. A child always has two parents, and one parent may not know of the other parent’s relationship to a child. That’s why divorce cases are so painful for everyone involved, because you cannot divorce your children, and neither can your spouse.

[Big Bad Sister]

I don't think she did. Sofia failed to create any real human bonds between her and Eleanor, treating her like a test subject, and at best a student or a valuable possession, from the outset. The reason Eleanor saves Sofia in some of the better endings is because she is showing forgiveness as Delta taught her, not daughterly love.

But remember: in the neutral ending, Eleanor expresses regret for having killed Sofia. "The Rapture dream is over, and in waking, I am alone. Mother I left behind..." She clearly misses her mother. Why would she miss her mother if she did not love her?

If she does kill Sofia, she turns on Delta and accuses him of making her into a “monster.” She contemptuously informs Delta that he taught her that it was OK for her to do wrong when she kills Sofia. In the neutral ending, it’s not Delta who taught Eleanor to forgive; it’s Sofia Lamb. Eleanor knew that Sofia forgave Stanley Poole, and she’s disgusted with herself for not having the same attitude toward her mother. Why would she give any esteem to Sofia’s actions if she did not love Sofia as a daughter loves her mother?

And even if Sofia Lamb’s parenting was unconventional, to say the least (at least according to North American standards – I grew up in an Asian household and this is exactly the kind of parenting I received), Eleanor clearly had a bond to her mother, enough to threaten to report Stanley to Sofia when he abused her money.

Eleanor did love her mother, even if Delta did not. A child always has two parents, and one parent may not know of the other parent’s relationship to a child. That’s why divorce cases are so painful for everyone involved, because you cannot divorce your children, and neither can your spouse.

@ MetroidJunkie2008

There are only 4 possible endings to BioShock 2. The ending that you speak of does not exist. There's no way to get the good ending except by sparing at least one of the NPCs.

In the good ending, Eleanor does not kill Sofia. In the bad and neutral endings, she kills her.

[Big Bad Sister]

Whoops, triple post. Mods!

[General Goose]

As I've only read the outlines of the neutral and bad endings and only experienced the best one firsthand, I can't really speak that well on the subject.

[Big Bad Sister]

As I've only read the outlines of the neutral and bad endings and only experienced the best one firsthand, I can't really speak that well on the subject.

You can watch them on Youtube. They're very revealing of Eleanor's character.

[General Goose]

You can watch them on Youtube. They're very revealing of Eleanor's character.

Oh yeah, seen them on YouTube, just quite a while ago.

I think the most love Eleanor has for her mother is a token daughterly love, and depending on Delta's actions, that may change. Then again, your mileage may vary.

[Big Bad Sister]

Oh yeah, seen them on YouTube, just quite a while ago.

I think the most love Eleanor has for her mother is a token daughterly love, and depending on Delta's actions, that may change. Then again, your mileage may vary.

She loves Lamb as much as she loves Delta. She may prefer Delta's company to Lamb's, but that doesn't mean that she will think highly of Delta for convincing her to kill Lamb.

[VargusTGF]

I think she was just showing her respect. Maybe from a loving relationship that died off as she grew older. Teens can get that way sometimes lol.

[ManicSheep]

She did love her mother deeply as a child, but over time and due to her mother’s actions that love faded. She still loved her mother at the end, but as many have pointed out you don't necessarily still LIKE someone. In the end it came down to either herself or her mother. Even the love between a mother and daughter has limits
.

"I loved my Mother, and I didn't want to hurt her but, after what she did to us, she gave up her right to exist"

I don't know if that's the exact quote but she says something like this in the good ending if you kill all the NPC's but save all the little sisters and Eleanor kills Sofia.

Yeah I remember that. I think it sums up their relationship well

[Big Bad Sister]

I think she was just showing her respect. Maybe from a loving relationship that died off as she grew older. Teens can get that way sometimes lol.

Okay, so why would she show her respect if she didn't love her? Teens might not have any affection for their parents, but that doesn't mean that they don't love them. Love is deeper than sentimentalism.

@ ManicSheep

The ending that you describe doesn't exist. There is only one way to get the good ending, and that is to save all the Little Sisters and spare at least one NPC. If you kill all the NPCs, you get the "choice" ending, which is "neutral." There is no "good" ending in which Eleanor drowns Sofia. If she does drown Sofia, the best ending that you can get is "neutral." Eleanor never condones her killing of Sofia, because she never stopped loving her.

Eleanor's love for Sofia didn't fade, and no, it did NOT come down to either her or her mother. Eleanor did not HAVE to drown Sofia, and that's why she is so regretful after she does drown her. She's killed her mother, and she's angry with Delta because he influenced her to kill her mother. Delta would've killed Sofia had he been in her place, and he likely doesn't understand why Eleanor is so grieved when Sofia dies - hence her anger at Delta. Why would she be so angry with Delta unless she loved Sofia, even if Delta did not?

[Lingarn]

But remember: in the neutral ending, Eleanor expresses regret for having killed Sofia. "The Rapture dream is over, and in waking, I am alone. Mother I left behind..." She clearly misses her mother. Why would she miss her mother if she did not love her?

She is alone. For better or for worse, her mother was the majority of the life she knew. Faced with an uncertain future, many people cling to the past - even if it was in fact terrible, we tend to long for it.

Also, when she says "Mother I left behind", it contains only a small fraction of the sorrow in her voice when she immediately says "And you... chose to die". I am not sure what she was expressing was actually regret for her Mother's death.

Why would she give any esteem to Sofia’s actions if she did not love Sofia as a daughter loves her mother?

Just because I despise someone doesn't mean I can't learn from them, or believe that they have in some way made a better choice than I did. Regret over failing to forgive could just as easily be regret that you don't live up to your own standards - it may have nothing to do with love.

I don't find your arguments compelling, but that doesn't mean she didn't love her mother. It certainly seems she did as a child. But as we met her in the game, she had decided that her mother was beyond saving. Whether she still loved her or not is unclear; sometimes love can mean hard choices.

[bugcatcherjason]

I mean, you can love someone and still disagree with them at the same time. Judging by what Eleanor says in the game and audios, I think this was the case.

[Big Bad Sister]

She is alone. For better or for worse, her mother was the majority of the life she knew. Faced with an uncertain future, many people cling to the past - even if it was in fact terrible, we tend to long for it.

I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Eleanor "clung to the past" like a victim of Stockholm Syndrome. She was overjoyed to be on the surface (a dream that she has always had), and far away from that hellhole called Rapture.

We know that Sofia took good care of Eleanor when she was young, and even when she was older. When Sofia was arrested, she made sure that Eleanor was well-cared for by Grace Holloway (though Gracie failed to protect her from Stanley). When Eleanor was turned into a Little Sister, she went out of her way, putting her life in danger, to rescue Eleanor. Then, she rehabilitated Eleanor's mind and saved her from becoming a Big Sister, remembering not to remove the slug from Eleanor's tummy because that would kill her. She obviously cared a great deal for her daughter, so it's only natural that Eleanor has a normal, healthy daughter-mother attachment to Sofia, and misses Sofia when she is gone.

Also, when she says "Mother I left behind", it contains only a small fraction of the sorrow in her voice when she immediately says "And you... chose to die".

No, the level of sorrow is the same, and that is why she is even comparing the loss of her mother to the loss of her father.

The only difference is that she was surprised and relieved when Delta chose to sacrifice himself rather than sacrifice his daughter. (Remember, Sofia's already tried to sacrifice Eleanor once; Eleanor doesn't want to go through the experience again.) She's not sorrier when Delta dies than when Lamb dies; she's just relieved to be free at last...of Lamb AND Delta.

I am not sure what she was expressing was actually regret for her Mother's death.

When 2K writes something, they always mean what they write. Eleanor was regretful - not only that Lamb died, but also that she had to leave Lamb behind AT ALL. There is clearly a bond of love between her and Lamb.

Also, do not forget Eleanor's anger at Delta after she killed her mother. Delta did not forgive his enemies, Eleanor followed in his footsteps...and look at what it cost her.

Just because I despise someone doesn't mean I can't learn from them, or believe that they have in some way made a better choice than I did.

But not if you're a child like Eleanor, who only emulates those whom she loves - hence her exaltation of Delta's actions. She loved Lamb, and so she emulated her as well.

And there is no evidence that Eleanor despised her mother. She was bewildered by her, terrified of her, and disgusted by her ideology and her actions. That doesn't mean that she hated her.

Regret over failing to forgive could just as easily be regret that you don't live up to your own standards - it may have nothing to do with love.

But Eleanor didn't have any standards of her own. She was a child, and a victim to the influences of her mother and her father. She began to mature when she became disillusioned with her mother's actions, and ceased to admire her. Still, she remained a child and looked for someone else to idolize in place of her mother - her father. It was only at the end of BioShock 2 that she finally grew up and became disillusioned with both mother AND father. And her growing up was no doubt influenced by her mother and father, even as she became disillusioned with them. She was influenced as much by Lamb as she was by Delta, because of her close bonds with each of them.

I don't find your arguments compelling, but that doesn't mean she didn't love her mother. It certainly seems she did as a child. But as we met her in the game, she had decided that her mother was beyond saving. Whether she still loved her or not is unclear; sometimes love can mean hard choices.

Considering that forgiveness is such a major theme in BioShock 2, and that forgiveness is borne out of love, it seems that the developers of BioShock 2 wanted to get the point across that Eleanor loved her mother, that real love is unconditional, that such love is perfectly normal and natural, and that we should emulate that kind of love.

If Delta fails to love and forgive (Grace, Stanley, Gil), Eleanor accuses him of being a monster, and making a monster of her. Eleanor loved her mother, and she wants Delta to love her enough to let her be free to love her mother - hence her relief, mixed with grief, when Delta chooses to sacrifice himself. That sacrifice is a final moral choice in the game, and it's another "forgiveness" moral dilemma. In choosing to sacrifice himself, Delta is choosing to forgive Lamb for all the evil that she has done, if only for the sake of their daughter, Eleanor. Sparing the guilty to save the innocent is the ultimate moral decision.

@ bugcatcherjason

Exactly!

[ManicSheep]

@ Big Bad Sister
ah so iv been dreaming up things that don't exist again? well that’s hardly uncommon
guess ill have to replay the game and check

[Big Bad Sister]

@ Big Bad Sister
ah so iv been dreaming up things that don't exist again? well that’s hardly uncommon
guess ill have to replay the game and check

No need: you can watch all the endings on Youtube, sometimes in the same video.

[ManicSheep]

No need: you can watch all the endings on Youtube, sometimes in the same video.

I have yet to find one that has all the alternate dialogues from Eleanor for the 1st cut scene. It was my understanding that what npc's you kill have no bearing on the final ending. If you get the neutral ending from killing the npc's their must be SOME change of dialogue in the main ending because otherwise she talks about you killing sisters when you didn't (either that or they didn’t bother to change it)
I don’t mind anyway. I need an excuse to not do assignments and play bioshock. It’s all in the name of science!! This question must be answered. It’s not that I’m lazy really...
Hmm I wonder what my lecturer would say if I actually used this

[Lingarn]

I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Eleanor "clung to the past" like a victim of Stockholm Syndrome. She was overjoyed to be on the surface (a dream that she has always had), and far away from that hellhole called Rapture.

She was overjoyed to have freedom, but her voice was the same when she said that the dream of Rapture was over as when she said that she had left her Mother behind. If she expressed regret for her mother's death, she also expressed regret for Rapture's fall.

My point was not that she is in fact clinging to the past, but that that is another reasonable interpretation of why she might express regret over her Mother's death. Love is not the only answer.

She's not sorrier when Delta dies than when Lamb dies; she's just relieved to be free at last...of Lamb AND Delta.

Ah, yes. That is why she says that she always thought that she and Delta would go out into the world together, and finishes by telling Delta that wherever he is, she misses him. Because she is relieved to be free.

When 2K writes something, they always mean what they write. Eleanor was regretful - not only that Lamb died, but also that she had to leave Lamb behind AT ALL. There is clearly a bond of love between her and Lamb.

My disagreement is not with what was written, but your interpretation of it. I don't hear regret in her voice. I don't hear sorrow. I think that this is a point upon which reasonable people can disagree, so I don't think it can be used as incontrovertible evidence of her affection.

What I hear in her voice is resignation; a statement of fact. Leaving her Mother behind is something that she worked toward for a long time, going to the extreme of resurrecting Delta. It was something that she had planned to do, something she felt was necessary. It is when she speaks of Delta that her voice cracks, and her misery shows.

Also, do not forget Eleanor's anger at Delta after she killed her mother. Delta did not forgive his enemies, Eleanor followed in his footsteps...and look at what it cost her.

Even so, I think that her anger can be explained in other ways - to become a murderer through the emulation of another may cause anger independent of any particular connection to the victim.

But not if you're a child like Eleanor, who only emulates those whom she loves - hence her exaltation of Delta's actions. She loved Lamb, and so she emulated her as well.

She only emulates who she loves? Have you ever known a child? They have influences far beyond the people they love.

More to the point, Eleanor showed a level of intelligence and self-awareness sufficient to judge her own actions and choices -- after all, how else could she be upset about becoming a murderer?

And there is no evidence that Eleanor despised her mother. She was bewildered by her, terrified of her, and disgusted by her ideology and her actions. That doesn't mean that she hated her.

It is true that disgust and terror do not equate with hatred. But they can.

I am not arguing in fact that Eleanor didn't love her mother -- simply that you haven't demonstrated that with the arguments we are discussing.

But Eleanor didn't have any standards of her own. She was a child, and a victim to the influences of her mother and her father. She began to mature when she became disillusioned with her mother's actions, and ceased to admire her. Still, she remained a child and looked for someone else to idolize in place of her mother - her father. It was only at the end of BioShock 2 that she finally grew up and became disillusioned with both mother AND father. And her growing up was no doubt influenced by her mother and father, even as she became disillusioned with them. She was influenced as much by Lamb as she was by Delta, because of her close bonds with each of them.

You cannot have no standards and know that someone else is wrong. When she found that Lamb had lost her way, it was because she understood what a person should be, how they should act -- how else could she judge?

As far as Delta's influence goes, I always thought that her bond with him was a lingering effect of the conditioning from her Little Sister days. If she had simply brought him back as a foil for her Mother's plan, I don't see why she would express such great affection for him.

(Off topic, I think that that is one way in which this game mirrors the first - we the player are made to feel great affection as Delta for Eleanor, even though the source of our bond is a monstrous conditioning imposed upon us. Whatever else we may choose to do, that bond is constant, just as Jack was inevitably going to kill Ryan.)

Considering that forgiveness is such a major theme in BioShock 2, and that forgiveness is borne out of love, it seems that the developers of BioShock 2 wanted to get the point across that Eleanor loved her mother, that real love is unconditional, that such love is perfectly normal and natural, and that we should emulate that kind of love.

Though forgiveness is a major theme, I think that the evidence for her love of Sofia that you've presented is not convincing.

If they are in fact trying to get us to learn a lesson about forgiveness, surely it would be a more powerful lesson to forgive even those who you hate?

If Delta fails to love and forgive (Grace, Stanley, Gil), Eleanor accuses him of being a monster, and making a monster of her. Eleanor loved her mother, and she wants Delta to love her enough to let her be free to love her mother - hence her relief, mixed with grief, when Delta chooses to sacrifice himself. That sacrifice is a final moral choice in the game, and it's another "forgiveness" moral dilemma. In choosing to sacrifice himself, Delta is choosing to forgive Lamb for all the evil that she has done, if only for the sake of their daughter, Eleanor. Sparing the guilty to save the innocent is the ultimate moral decision.

I don't think Delta is choosing to forgive Lamb - I think that Delta is giving Eleanor the gift of real freedom. Instead of choosing what Eleanor must be, as Lamb did, Delta gives the choice back to her.

I don't think sparing the guilty to save the innocent is the ultimate moral decision -- that's a bit over dramatic, don't you think? What if you have to choose between the lives of two innocents? What if you have to choose between your own life and the life of two others, one guilty and one innocent? This isn't particularly relevant to the topic at hand, except to illustrate one point -- the source of our disagreement seems to be one of interpretation.

I don't think there is a clear answer here, for or against her continued love for her mother. If you have further evidence, something we haven't discussed, I'd be interested to see it. Otherwise, in the absence of conclusive evidence, I think that it is reasonable to accept either interpretation.

[Big Bad Sister]

She was overjoyed to have freedom, but her voice was the same when she said that the dream of Rapture was over as when she said that she had left her Mother behind. If she expressed regret for her mother's death, she also expressed regret for Rapture's fall.

She says, “Mother I left behind, and you chose to die…” She places the losses of Delta and Lamb in the same sentence, on the same level of “regretability.” If she did not feel regret for Sofia’s death, then neither did she feel regret for Delta’s death. Do you accept that Eleanor regrets the loss of Delta? If so, then you must also accept that she regrets the loss of her mother in the same way. To do otherwise is to blatantly dismiss Eleanor’s words. I think that she knows better how to express her own feelings than you or I.

My point was not that she is in fact clinging to the past, but that that is another reasonable interpretation of why she might express regret over her Mother's death. Love is not the only answer.

Like I've said before, there's no evidence as far as I can see that Eleanor is clinging to the past. She's always dreamed of life on the surface, and the surface, no matter how lonely, is far preferable to the equally (if not more so) lonely hellhole of Rapture, so why would she cling to the past? She’s even celebrating her freedom (“The Rapture dream is over…”). Obviously, she doesn’t miss Rapture. It takes a great deal of speculation to come to the conclusion that she only misses her mother because she misses Rapture, since there is no evidence that she even misses Rapture.

Ah, yes. That is why she says that she always thought that she and Delta would go out into the world together, and finishes by telling Delta that wherever he is, she misses him. Because she is relieved to be free.

She says explicitly, "Your SACRIFICE gave me HOPE." She is GLAD that Delta chose not to enslave her, even if that means that he must die. However, she is not only glad that Delta chose death rather than to enslave Eleanor; she is both surprised and GRATEFUL that he made that choice. *That* is why she pauses before saying “you chose to die,” with the emphasis on “chose;” she didn’t do it because she loves Delta more than Lamb.

My disagreement is not with what was written, but your interpretation of it.

I don't think that plain words are open to interpretation. They must be taken at face value. Eleanor said, "Mother I left behind, and you chose to die..." If you accept that she misses her father, you must also accept that she misses her mother, because she places the two losses on the same level. You are trying to twist Eleanor’s words to mean something that they do not mean.

What I hear in her voice is resignation; a statement of fact. Leaving her Mother behind is something that she worked toward for a long time, going to the extreme of resurrecting Delta.

It was something that she had planned to do, something she felt was necessary. It is when she speaks of Delta that her voice cracks, and her misery shows.

No, she was describing her sense of LOSS with both her mother and her father gone, not the validity of her decision to abandon Lamb. “Mother I left behind, and you chose to die…” Her words plainly indicate that the loss of her mother is equal to the loss of her father.

Even so, I think that her anger can be explained in other ways - to become a murderer through the emulation of another may cause anger independent of any particular connection to the victim.

But why would Eleanor characterize her drowning of her mother as "murder," especially since Lamb richly deserved to die? Refusing to forgive an evil person is not “immoral;” Eleanor did nothing “wrong” in drowning Sofia, so there’s no reason for her to be angry at Delta for influencing her to kill a murderer.

There’s one good reason that Eleanor would characterize the killing of Lamb as “murder:” when she kills Lamb, she is killing a part of herself, because she has a bond with Sofia Lamb. Forgiveness is always motivated by love, whether that love is for the one being forgiven (Sofia) or for someone else who loves the person who is being forgiven (Eleanor) or someone whose life is dependent on the person being forgiven. Eleanor wants to forgive Lamb because she loves Lamb and does not want to be hurt by someone killing her, even if that person is Eleanor herself.

She only emulates who she loves? Have you ever known a child? They have influences far beyond the people they love.

Children do NOT emulate those whom they do not love, because those whom they do not love are not seen as worthy of emulation. Children see the world in terms of absolutes. People who are “good” are absolutely good and are to be loved and worshipped. People who are "bad" are absolutely bad and are to be hated and killed.

In Eleanor’s childish mind, Delta was one of the “good” people, and everything he did was gospel truth. Only after she killed her mother did she finally grow up for good, and stop seeing people in black and white.

More to the point, Eleanor showed a level of intelligence and self-awareness sufficient to judge her own actions and choices -- after all, how else could she be upset about becoming a murderer?

Again: why would Eleanor see herself as a “murderer” for refusing to forgive someone as evil as Lamb if she did not love her?

You cannot have no standards and know that someone else is wrong. When she found that Lamb had lost her way, it was because she understood what a person should be, how they should act -- how else could she judge?

Eleanor was beginning to mature when she became disillusioned with her mother and condemned her actions. Of course, she was only halfway in the “growing up” process, and that is why she soon transferred her idolization of her mother to her father, exalting his every act uncritically.

As far as Delta's influence goes, I always thought that her bond with him was a lingering effect of the conditioning from her Little Sister days. If she had simply brought him back as a foil for her Mother's plan, I don't see why she would express such great affection for him.

In an audio diary, Eleanor said that she brought Delta back because she wanted someone to help her escape Rapture. If Sofia Lamb had not become as oppressive as she was, I highly doubt that Eleanor would’ve even thought of bringing him back.

Also, the reason that Eleanor had such affection for Delta is that she’s always wanted a father, and her desire for a father is also why she idealized him as much as she did.

Though forgiveness is a major theme, I think that the evidence for her love of Sofia that you've presented is not convincing.

I think that my evidence is stronger than yours. You’re speculating too much about Eleanor’s feelings about her past, and ignoring Eleanor’s words regarding her attitude to her mother.

If they are in fact trying to get us to learn a lesson about forgiveness, surely it would be a more powerful lesson to forgive even those who you hate?

Forgiveness is always born out of love, never out of hatred. You cannot forgive someone whom you hate, unless you are forgiving the person for the sake of someone else…perhaps someone who loves the person, or someone whose life is dependent on the person. Sofia Lamb has no one who is dependent on her for life, and the only one who might love her is Eleanor. What reason does Eleanor have to forgive her mother? Love is the only plausible one.

BioShock 2 doesn’t just say that we must forgive: it says that we must love and not hate, because love is what leads to forgiveness and hate is what leads to suffering for the people doing the hating.

I don't think Delta is choosing to forgive Lamb - I think that Delta is giving Eleanor the gift of real freedom. Instead of choosing what Eleanor must be, as Lamb did, Delta gives the choice back to her.

Yes, and this is what I mean when I say that forgiveness is sometimes done for the sake of someone other than the person being forgiven. Eleanor wants to forgive her mother, even if Delta does not. If Delta cares for Eleanor, he would forgive her mother for her sake. He would therefore not oblige Eleanor to absorb his consciousness and become as ruthless and unforgiving as he.

I don't think sparing the guilty to save the innocent is the ultimate moral decision -- that's a bit over dramatic, don't you think?

Not at all. And here’s why:

What if you have to choose between your own life and the life of two others, one guilty and one innocent?

Exactly my point. Will you let the guilty man live for the sake of the innocent man, or sacrifice the innocent man because you don’t want to die for a guilty man who deserves to die while you do not? The Objectivist would say no. The altruist would say yes. What do you say?

What if you have to choose between the lives of two innocents?

Unless both people are certain to die if you don’t choose, either option is moral. If you think that I’m wrong, then…well, that’s what Sofia Lamb thought. Better that everyone die than a few survive at the expense of the others.

Anyway, it’s obvious that I won’t be able to convince you, so I’m done with this debate. To each his own opinion.

[Lingarn]

Do you accept that Eleanor regrets the loss of Delta? If so, then you must also accept that she regrets the loss of her mother in the same way. To do otherwise is to blatantly dismiss Eleanor’s words.

If you listen to how the words are delivered, there is a clear difference in how she speaks about one and the other. There is more information we are given than simply the words themselves, and to ignore that is a choice.

But why would Eleanor characterize her drowning of her mother as "murder," especially since Lamb richly deserved to die? Refusing to forgive an evil person is not “immoral;” Eleanor did nothing “wrong” in drowning Sofia, so there’s no reason for her to be angry at Delta for influencing her to kill a murderer.

Because drowning someone who has no capacity to defend themselves and is not an immediate danger to the life of someone else is murder. Whether or not the person is evil is irrelevant - murder is murder. You may feel justified in killing an evil person, but that doesn't make it less murder.

There’s one good reason that Eleanor would characterize the killing of Lamb as “murder:” when she kills Lamb, she is killing a part of herself, because she has a bond with Sofia Lamb.

This is what I mean by interpretation. You think that this is the only plausible explanation, and I think that is begging the question.

Forgiveness is always motivated by love, whether that love is for the one being forgiven (Sofia) or for someone else who loves the person who is being forgiven (Eleanor) or someone whose life is dependent on the person being forgiven.

What about love of yourself? Hatred is a terrible burden. It eats away at you. A person who can forgive even their most hated foe will be happier than one who cannot.

At any rate:

Anyway, it’s obvious that I won’t be able to convince you, so I’m done with this debate. To each his own opinion.

The thing is, I don't think you are necessarily wrong, but that the evidence you've presented is not as ironclad as you make it out to be. Love isn't the only answer that explains what you've shown.

I had hoped you would present new evidence, but absent that, I think you are right - you will not be able to convince me. Better luck next time!

[Big Bad Sister]

Okay, so I've replayed BioShock 2 and gotten the second good ending (apparently there are two good endings, just as there are two bad endings).

In this ending, Eleanor does indeed say, "I loved my mother, and didn't want to hurt her. But she lost the right to exist after what she did to us." Or something along those lines. (My mistake, apologies all around!)

So it's been confirmed: Eleanor did love her mother. I was correct!

[elementdelta59]

no, she did not...

[Big Bad Sister]

no, she did not...

Do your research, and THEN answer. Not the other way around.

[loaiciga]

well i think that she didnt kill Sofia Lamb (in the good ending) just because delta taught her to show respect ... but in the bad ending she kill her own mother and she dont even hesitate to do it .. neither said: i wish that my mother was here with me or something like that ..
but in the neutral ending she does ..
I think that Eleanor feelings depends on ur decisions in the game and thats it... if u kill a lot of little sisters is the bad ending and thats why she is evil..
the neutral ending its neutral lol ... she killed her mother but she wish not to be alone and the good ending .. Eleanor is shows compassion.

[cevelry]

Elenaor and her father's relationship was very strong and in final scene it was a mirror about what have you done in game because of she wants to be like you and follow you I think ''It's a daddy thing''

[TAK The Voyager]

In this ending, Eleanor does indeed say, "I loved my mother, and didn't want to hurt her. But she lost the right to exist after what she did to us." Or something along those lines. (My mistake, apologies all around!)

So it's been confirmed: Eleanor did love her mother. I was correct!

Gah, 4 pages of philosophy and arguments and all we needed was to get a specific ending. (Not that I could've helped, all I get is the best ending).

TAK

[StudiedApollo8]

I also think that Eleanor Saves lamb through Delta's influence, after all technically Lamb did kill Eleanor to sever the bond between the two of them causing Delta to die. I think Elenore saves Lamb because she knows it's the right thing to do more so than her love for her mother. This is a woman who killed Eleanor's "father" right in front of her then killed her right in front of her father I think it would be very hard to fully love someone who did that, maybe forgive them, but love them is a different story especially since she killed her father technically twice.

[IllusionOfLife]

This thread has been dead for two years, please don't bump ancient threads like this.