Do you feel that now with the revelations about the Little Sisters,Bioshock has lost some of its credibility?
definitley
not at all
A little,But it still rocks!
Do you feel that now with the revelations about the Little Sisters,Bioshock has lost some of its credibility?
Bowed to pressure and made them unkillable?shots clip threw them?
its stupid if they did,as it was one of the main plot points of the game to use these creatures disguised as little girls for resources if they back out of that then what else will they put aside for the "market".
No wonder they don't want to put a demo out they are still testing the waters >>
if they are so worried over the "content" sale a expansion on D2D for 20$ I'll bite but frankly its worrying that they would have to do so since take 2 had some balls as a pub...well...it seems they had balls...it seems a bit hairless now...another let down and no demo will resign this game to the bargain bin of fate for me.
I feel the same about a Demo,but I've placed 2 pre-orders for both editions-in the end I feel the money is well spent.
So if you can still kill LS's whats the change with them?Originally Posted by splicer
Bulletts,or fire does not hurt them-technically the only way to kill them(And I really dont like that expression)Is to drain whatever Adam they possess down to zero.
AAhhhhhhhhhh that makes things allot clearer ,they live to produce adam ,adam is their "life" so killing them would be silly however making them immune to things is also silly...but then again they tend to cling the Big daddy's thus heavy fire fights would...well..kill them too :X
I noticed a lot of ash trays and garbage bins has anyone state they are going to hold stuff? or are they just there for deco.
I personally don't think so. The game asks "What lengths are you willing to go to ensure your survival?" Not "Are you going to want to kill genetically modified beings with the appearance of little girls".
I dont think thats the issue,I think whats being said is that there was this whole big moral dillema with regard to harming the LS-The right to make that decision.I'd even gone as far as planning my combat strategies around not harming her by accident with either gun fire-or other means.Because I wanted the feeling of knowing that i had made a responsible decision to protect her at all costs-Removing this element,has made any such decisions entirely eroneus.Personally,I dont feel that a menu pop up that says Save or Harvest is that pariticuarly morally taxing or involving.The only consequences of these actions would seem to entirely depend on just how much you want to get your hands on the really powerful plasmids-or play the game using just the weapons found and upgraded around the game world.
Last edited by splicer; 05-24-2007 at 04:19 AM.
imo, if you make a moral choice you must live it out and experience the pros and cons of your actions. thats what you do in real life.
of course this is a game...
My two cents are this:
Folks, it's a game. I understand the concepts of realism and immersion, but if you can't step back and realize you're playing a game, then you shouldn't be playing anyway. We've all run into similar situations in games where you can't harm the important NPC's such as in Half-life 2, where they're immune to your attacks.
We all saw this coming, the inability to harm the little sisters. So to make up for this, I'm assuming they said "well what if when you harvest the adam from them (same as killing them), they die during the process?" so as to keep that moral choice still intact. It makes sense and really does help with the immersion aspect.
Yes, the moral choices are up to us, but the politically correctness of this what looks to be amazing game, is up to it's developers, producers, and owners. Get over it!
just my two cents
Its still an amazing game just a bit less amazing then at first.
Maybe IG should have an AO rated version of Bioshock where there aren't any safeguards on the little sister. I think the game will still be great even with this turn of events. I still would like to see a demo as a way to get a taste of the game play and to test my rig.
Concerning HL, I have killed Alyx on purpose. Playing through episode 1 I decided to see if I could kill her. You can! It just takes a bit of doing on the players part. "Gordon watch out!", "Ohhhhh, Gordon" fades to black and restart at the save point.
I am kind of surprised to see people so upset over such a little change. The game never revolved around killing the little sisters.
I would hope that people didn't think the killing of the little sisters was the only "edge" or appealing gameplay element that this game possessed.
I personally didn't have any intention of killing a LS, but like Splicer I was trying to figure out how to get the BD and not injure her. That type of play does give a bit of an edge because if you don't do things right you can't save or harvest her depending on your intentions. I think an invincible LS takes away from some of that type of game play and just allows us to go in and take out a BD (as hard as it will be) and not have a care about the LS getting hurt. I was actually surprised at the thread where folks were talking about lighting the LS on fire, etc. I was even more surprised when the thread wasn't closed when it started to get that way. Any way my two cents. Perhaps the someone will create a mod where we will have to be careful about how we approach things.
It's obviously not the only "edge" or whatever - but the whole morality question is quite clearly a major theme of the game and the choices you had to make when dealing with the Little Sisters was marketed as a pivotal role in the mood and style of the game. A lot of the later storyline and ambience was fleshed out from this (from the perspective of us, the customers) so of course people are going to be unnerved by what seems like a change for the worst (in terms of being 'gritty') to one of the core elements of the BioShock universe.
I can imagine that there's more reasons than the dubious attitude the press and public might have towards a game where you can kill little girls - the mechanics of it is pretty damn difficult too. As we saw in the Hunting the Big Daddy video, you're throwing all manner of bombs/bullets/explosions/turrets/teddy bears at the Big Daddy and in the meantime, it's highly highly likely that the Little Sister would easily stray into the line of fire...
It does feel like a bit of a u-turn but it's not completely destroyed the game for me. However, I have now remembered why I meant to stop myself reading too much/watching too many videos about BioShock: I really don't want the mystery of the city spoiled for me before I've even played the game.
Don't throw out the entire morality issue yet. Immunity to permanent physical harm does not equate immunity to pain and suffering. Do you think the plight of Prometheus was made any better by the fact that his liver always grew back overnight? So that the torturous process of an eagle pecking it out could be repeated day after day?
How 'moral' it is to torment a creature who (as it appears) feels pain as acutely as any human but is unable to escape from pain by choosing death?
I agree. The fact that your taking advantage of what appears to be a sentient and possibly sapient being seems rather immoral to me. It's almost comparable to taking someones kidney forcefully. Sure it may not kill them, but heck it sure didn't belong to you in the first place.
It is an interesting point, but in the end I think you would have found yourself accidentally killing the LS more than you wished to considering the fire power it took to bring down a big daddy. Even if she strayed from the battle who's to say a stray splicer wouldn't take her out.I personally didn't have any intention of killing a LS, but like Splicer I was trying to figure out how to get the BD and not injure her. That type of play does give a bit of an edge because if you don't do things right you can't save or harvest her depending on your intentions. I think an invincible LS takes away from some of that type of game play and just allows us to go in and take out a BD (as hard as it will be) and not have a care about the LS getting hurt.
I remember thinking, when watching the player use the splicer irritant in the first developer walkthrough, how easy it was for the splicer to hit and kill the LS is that scenario.
Though I could be mistaken, I think in that sense it was also a gameplay decision made by the developers.
I think we just have to accept that a giant u turn has been made by the developers regarding the LS,Its not a deal breaker for me,as I will still enjoy the game,but its dissapointing when lofty promises of having to make really tough moral choices turn out to be little more than PR lingo.
Even if she could at least get knocked unconscious (accidentally?) then we could approach her and be presented with the decision to get a jackpot of adam, knowing she would die, but without undue suffering. A subtle temptation to the dark side. Would it be an easier choice if she wasn't conscious to witness the harvesting? If we didn't have to hear her scream or look into her eyes?
It could also cause "good"/protective players to be a little more cautious about stray bullets and grenade throwing ~ if they knock out the sister who they intend to 'cure' then after the fight they would have to wait for her to regain consciousness ~ with all those hungry splicers right out in the hall, and no big daddy to protect her anymore. You are now her protector and her unconscious body is drawing splicers like flies to honey.
If you at least went that route then the moral strata (layers of depth, complexity, decision) would still be somewhat preserved. We could also justify her immunity in our heads that as the uber-mutation capable of converting adam, little sisters are above and beyond the standard mutations of even splicers and BDs and can heal and resist damage at a very rapid rate.
If she cannot be harmed at all through standard gameplay or environment, then as it has been said, morality is reduced to a button push and the BD doesn't make that much sense.
( It will still be a great game.
I've no doubt about it.
But you guys did cause this little dilemma yourselves ~ that promo video showed a man approaching a little sister with a wrench with the intention to do harm. It was edgy, controversial, emotional, and you knew exactly what it suggested. So you guys can't plant the seed of the idea and then act shocked and turn it back on us now, "well, I don't know why anyone would want to do that in a game! you must be sickos!" )
I couldnt agree more dude/old chap!-What exactly does the BD do in this game?-
I'm not "throwing out the morality issues" - I'm merely stating why I think people have reacted the way they have.
As was just said, a u-turn seems to have been made. We can accept it, but you can't expect everyone to be absolutely happy about it.
I don't personally think that they planned this u-turn from the start but who knows.
I think the U turn was a critical requirement placed on the game by ELSPA-cut it or we cancel it!
they say that about movies 2 but I refuse to put up with their BS either, if my BS meter goes off boycott it I will, play the shepple all you want I prefer to stear clear of the slaughter house.My two cents are this:
Folks, it's a game. I understand the concepts of realism and immersion, but if you can't step back and realize you're playing a game, then you shouldn't be playing anyway. We've all run into similar situations in games where you can't harm the important NPC's such as in Half-life 2, where they're immune to your attacks.
We all saw this coming, the inability to harm the little sisters. So to make up for this, I'm assuming they said "well what if when you harvest the adam from them (same as killing them), they die during the process?" so as to keep that moral choice still intact. It makes sense and really does help with the immersion aspect.
Yes, the moral choices are up to us, but the politically correctness of this what looks to be amazing game, is up to it's developers, producers, and owners. Get over it!
With that said its a minor issue this time around you can still use them and scare them making them indestructible makes my pedo alarm go off a bit(the longer they last the more fun to be had).
Yes zippy strange and like his tinfoil hat ^^
In the end its not that big a deal but its enough to make me worry.
PSlasmids are 1 time use right?
Check this post out by Elizabeth:
(edit: tht's actually a post by Ken. I was tired)
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=52
Hopefully it'll allay your fears somewhat.
Last edited by FrenchTart; 05-25-2007 at 12:33 AM.
Better yet, Ken's:
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=67
I'm a lot happier now that Ken has been kind enough to explain things in a lot more detail.
its cleared up the worry but only more gameplay videos or a demo will make me preorder it :PI'm a lot happier now that Ken has been kind enough to explain things in a lot more detail.
Dude,Trust me,buy this baby,you wont regret it-Trust your old Splicer pal!
sadly I only have 50 saved :P need another 30 for the collectors ed :PDude,Trust me,buy this baby,you wont regret it-Trust your old Splicer pal!
when I have the money I will mull it over my PC is also a bit aged tho...3700,1GB ramm,BFG 6800 OC 256 ram.
Thats 3 months to save!
Maybe we will get a demo before then,I honestly think that this forum has such a unique relationship with Ken and Co,they may just give us one anyway.Gameplay videos are great,and I watch them over and over drooling at all the detail and granduer-but theres nothing quite like actually getting to play it.
Dont be put off,if it doesnt happen though.You need this game!
meh I have like 700 worth of bills to cover in that time >> hopefully I might get it *L*Thats 3 months to save!
Maybe we will get a demo before then,I honestly think that this forum has such a unique relationship with Ken and Co,they may just give us one anyway.Gameplay videos are great,and I watch them over and over drooling at all the detail and granduer-but theres nothing quite like actually getting to play it.
Dont be put off,if it doesnt happen though.You need this game!
I like Ken's explanation alot, and I have to say, he really is right about a lot of the stuff he says, specifically the emotionless accidental killing of LS's.
I'm still a little miffed, but it's definately not something that's going to stop me from purchasing, pushing, playing, perusing and generally ... penjoying? (got off on a bit of an alliteration kick there, ran out of "p" words) the game.
My remaining concerns regarding this fiasco are as follows;
First and Foremost: I know environmental damage and gunfire will not kill a LS, but will they react in a realistic manner to said affects? for example, if a stray bullet passes through a LS, will she be knocked over from the force? Will she sustain some form of injury? My concerns on this matter only lay in realism, it doesn't seem very realistic that a small calibre bullet passes through a little sister and does absolutely nothing.
Secondly: How does the harvesting scene work? I understand it won't be a visible process and I can come to terms with that, but, will there be audio? There needs to be some of stimuli during the process or I go back to the thinking that the moral impact of it all is mostly lost. For example, my ideal (in the face of all this) scene would be approaching the LS, then after deciding to harvest the adam the screen fades to black but the audio stays intact. This is risque still, but wouldn't push the boundaries far enough (I don't think) to attract too much negative attention, and would leave the player sitting there thinking "What in the hell did I just do?"
I don't think Bioshock lost its edge it is still the same game and you still get the same Moral choices.
Wait, wait, wait. I don't remember Ken say anything about not being able to see the 'extraction' process. I got the impression that there will be an animation/cinamatic if you choose to harvest.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
in Europe or Aus maybe(remember what they did for punisher) I have a feelign you just hold the tool next to them and take the adam as they cower in fear and then "nap" after all is removed ,they could do a cut scene but meh who knows *L*
as for LS being damage I think they simply absorb damage not have it clip threw them,you can shoot at them as they stumble for cover since they are lil little walking factories of energy/adam I can see them being damn near hard to destroy without draining them off it first..
anyone know what the time out on bodies will be I really hate the 20 sec or less time out on corpses in newer games...
i killed her with a hopper mine that had been turned into a black hole grenade. i eventually got sucked in too :PMaybe IG should have an AO rated version of Bioshock where there aren't any safeguards on the little sister. I think the game will still be great even with this turn of events. I still would like to see a demo as a way to get a taste of the game play and to test my rig.
Concerning HL, I have killed Alyx on purpose. Playing through episode 1 I decided to see if I could kill her. You can! It just takes a bit of doing on the players part. "Gordon watch out!", "Ohhhhh, Gordon" fades to black and restart at the save point.
well that wouldnt give the little sisters much of a chance to do their harvesting, now, would it?
Jedi knight 2 had some if this character dies you die to stuff however you could kill Jane and that R2 unit. LOL
Of coarse doing that with the lil sisters would be hard since quick save would not work well on a console so I am told.
Well I been playing Infernal and since you need to loot bodies for ammo and life havign them strangely dissapear at odd times is very annoying,if you loot bodies on bioshock I hope they have a better time out on it,as for the LS theres a few possibilities at what they will do ,they just hide in the area till you drain them or they will hide and dissappaer if you leave them ,tryign to think at a max gore PG13 movie setting prehaps you drain them(drain meaing hold a tool next to them and it absorbs the adam) and they just become lethargic sitting there then fade away or fade after you leave the room.
Its kinda silly the ESRB is pitching a fit over it you can smash puppies in god of war and it has free nipples it should be AO darn it :X
With bestbuy or whoever sneaking a 2nd ratings opinion the ESRBs days are numbered if it can not shape up,of coarse what started the ESRBs downfall it seems was hotcoffe and the lack of knowledge of what user mods are....in this day and age I wonder if a simi high profile game like Bioshock could survive a mod or cheat scandal......*shudders* politics how disgusting...
Last edited by ZippyDSMlee; 05-25-2007 at 12:53 AM.
I'm actually happy that you can't shoot Little Sisters. It makes more sense to me from gameplay standpoint. If all you had you do was to shoot her, press E to get Adam and run away, then not only the whole moral choice would be gone but also such a shoot-take-run strategy would be exploited by players to the highest degree. It would be easy and painless, almost effortless Adam harvesting.
By the way, the title of this thread is really funny. You guys should really hold your hype a bit. Better stop creating your own vision of BioShock, because this is the easiest way to get dissapointed with the final version. In the end it's the final version that matters to the player, not each of the individual features or stages of the game.
thats the point is it not? to kill/harvest or save and protect?
the "pranceing" around the issue and god mode them seems more silly since its most likely due to avoiding the AO rating.
In any case to press a button to drain adam is the same as killing her for the adam so I don't see your point.
Last edited by ZippyDSMlee; 05-25-2007 at 03:27 AM.
ZippyDSMlee
I think that the moral decision would be gone with vulnerable Little Sisters. I don’t know if that’s what IG intended but really, what would you feel after throwing 10 grenades at Big Daddy and Little Sister and watching them die? Not much, I think. Even if you didn’t want to kill Little Sister, you’d most likely go with “☺☺☺☺, she’s dead… oh well, I might take Adam from her anyway”. The vision of shooting the girl in the head works only in imagination. Why? Because yes, there is moral choice here: Big Daddy is dead, you’re approaching Little Sister with a wrench in your hands. But how many times would you see this? Not too many, I bet she’d die during 95% of your confrontations with Big Daddy and in fact the last thing I would want to worry about would be watching if she’s still alive during a battle. Experience says it all, it would be way too annoying for a player to do this. I think people would try and try and try to save Little Sisters but after countless failed attempts to do that because of her dying in the firefight, they’d rather say “☺☺☺☺ this” and give up at these attempts at all.
To me the whole point on this Little Sister topic is that you have a choice to exploit her or save her and THAT’S the moral choice. How does it works? Simple: at close range. That’s why X06 video is so disturbing and that’s why Hunting the Big Daddy ending is disturbing too. You see her, you see her fear. And right now you have a choice. Now face the situation: you see Big Daddy and Little Sister roaming down the corridor. And now when would you have an opportunity to feel guilty for killing her? Nowhere, because you shoot her from a distance and that’s about it. The disturbing part is that you approach her and now you have a choice. She’s there, lying on the floor, terrified. Can you force yourself to do any harm to her? Or maybe you’ll say “I can’t do it” and choose to save her instead? And in fact killing her would be disturbing ONLY if you do it like that, from a close range with Big Daddy dead.
I don’t know if that makes sense to anyone else but me. I just don’t agree with your statement: “to press a button to drain adam is the same as killing [shooting] her”. IMO it’s not, because to press a button you have to defeat Big Daddy and face helpless and scared children. That has some kind of emotional impact on you. On the other hand shooting her would have no impact at all because you would do it from a distance. I seriously doubt that you would fight with the Big Daddy and carefully watch for Little Sister just to put a bullet in her head after all.
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