I bet you'd still beat me (with an arm and a leg tied behind your backOriginally Posted by ITZ DENI3D
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I bet you'd still beat me (with an arm and a leg tied behind your back
By simply interrupting a negative thought stream (when aware of it and making a conscious choice to counter it), by default, you are not thinking negatively. The best defence is not to think at all, but "come to your senses" and allow reality to just be... not negative or positive... because you don't let the mind position itself as the "opinionator". Remember you are not your mind, but that that is listening to it...
But before you all go "Not this sh!@ again...
Time for a joke:
An electron, proton and a neutron go out for a drink...
The bartender puts a beer down in front of the proton and says $5,
a glass for the electron... $5
And for the neutron..."For you there is NO CHARGE"...
I kind of figured that, I never will believe depression is a disease, it is a realization. Just because you can take pills that alter the chemicals in your brain and "fix" you it doesn't make it a disease any more than prescribing crack will.
Joke was too silly I guess...
\
Mehh... 4 out of 10 I've heard better
It was good. It made me tought about a joke where a proton an electron and a neutrino had a debate. The neutrino gave up when he realised he had no weight in the debate...
if that is, in fact, the reality you have accepted i don't understand why you still haven't killed yourself.
i know why. because you're not clinically depressed. otherwise, you wouldn't have the motivation to sit at your computer and have a conversation with me. instead, you'd lie in bed all day doing nothing except lamenting your life and crying. these people kill themselves quite often.
whether it's a disease or not is pretty relative in my opinion. in part, predispositions to depression are inherited and then caused by imbalances of monoamines that can be "normalized" again with the help of drugs. so in that way, it would certainly fit with our conception of "disease".
Because every single person can be made a "depressed" person thats why. Except for that .1% of people that can't like monks or something. If I was a psychopath I could make you and everyone you know depressed for the rest of your life, therefore I don't believe it is a disease. You can disagree all you want and we could go into hypotheticals but everyone can be broken, just because some are broken more easily than others doesn't make it a disease.
I imagine really depressed people are often too depressed to kill themselves. they might suceed of they could just die by neglect but probably someone takes them to a hopspital and they dont really have in in them to work out a plan to overcome those trying to help them.
sure, anyone can be depressed under the right circumstances and i think somewhere around 30% of the western population experience at least one depressive phase in their life.
it's a disease given a suitable definition. i think the underlying assumption of the concept of "disease" is that it is an abnormal human state, e.g. influenza or schizophrenia. i think that criterion works for clinical depression as well. if we're just talking about feeling depressed in the colloquial meaning of the word that's another story. major depressive disorder is a wholly different category.
i suppose if you define diseases as something which is dependent only on physical factors beyond control depression might not be a disease. but even that is contested since diseases such as influenza are highly dependent on situational factors such as stress and dispositional factors such as your resistance to stress. there is also some evidence indicating that such diseases are influenced by your attitudes and philosophy of life. pessimists will more often be sick, etc. if that's true, i think nothing is a disease.
suicide rates are still significantly higher for the depressed, though i'm too lazy to look for accurate numbers
anyway, when looking at it the other way around, it seems reasonable to assume that many suicides are preceded by depressions.
Depressive disorder is a mental disease. It is classified in the DSM-IV. In psychology, no need to define a disease, you check in the book, if it's there it is a disease. If it's not you have to check in the litterature if it is debated to be included or not.
''Up to 60% of people who commit suicide have a mood disorder such as major depression, and the risk is especially high if a person has a marked sense of hopelessness or has both depression and borderline personality disorder.[1] The lifetime risk of suicide associated with a diagnosis of major depression in the US is estimated at 3.4%, which averages two highly disparate figures of almost 7% for men and 1% for women[234] (although suicide attempts are more frequent in women).[235] The estimate is substantially lower than a previously accepted figure of 15%, which had been derived from older studies of hospitalized patients.'' Wikipediasuicide rates are still significantly higher for the depressed, though i'm too lazy to look for accurate numbers
i tend to agree with that. since the classification of diseases is relative a disease is a disease as long as it is defined as such. although i don't think disorders are the same as diseases.
a good demonstration of the relativity of disorders is the fact how often some become scrapped and new ones are established. sadistic personality disorder was scrapped. it is currently discussed whether multiple personality disorder is actually real and i don't think the european version of the DSM still contains it. it is discussed whether narcissistic personality disorder should be abandoned, etc.
My opinion is that most personality disorders are labeled that because society thinks everyone should conform to what they feel is "normal". Is being anti-social or being angry a personality disorder? Cause I have 2 right there. It is ridiculous some of the titles these people come up with for those who don't follow the norm. I could just as easily say a psychiatrist has CFPD (Conforming Fascist Personality Disorder) though I doubt they would put it in a book. I'm no expert but from what I've gathered many of these "personality disorders" come and go with the times... I mean, am I the only one who sees labeling another persons personality as a disorder? Without personalities we would just be robots...
Last edited by ITZ DENI3D; 05-29-2012 at 06:36 AM.
Just found out what the difference between "regular depression" is and "clinical depression". Basically what I said earlier, some people have shorter breaking points than others and those are the ones who are labeled "clinically depressed". But anyone can be made into a "clinically depressed" person so I don't believe it is a disease at all, just because you can take drugs to alter your brains chemistry doesn't make it a disease.
I totally agree with you here. I'm pretty sure I could be diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder but I still have a life and function in society so who's to say it's a problem? It's just how I've always been. (If you look it up on wikipedia I'm not as bad as they make it sound there, but I have most of the 'symptoms' in one form or another.)
that's when i mean when i say that personality disorders are relative. we classify those personalities that deviate from the norm as disorders. while this is relative it is still quite practical as usually these disorders cause distress to the individual and/or society. for example, you may be both antisocial and angry and fine with it but society still won't accept that which is necessary in my opinion.
and i think that people with borderline or depression are very thankful to receive help or being brought back to the norm. depression, by definition, means that you're feeling incredibly crappy. who would not want to leave that state?
there's a difference between being a loner and having less need for relatedness than average on the one hand and having no need for relatedness whatsoever, being incapable of having positive feeling for others, etc. on the other hand. so i doubt that you could be diagnosed with the disorder.
though, you're right that schizoid people can function. their disorder usually doesn't cause them distress and isn't harmful to society either. they can function quite well working and contribute like any other. it's probably problematic for family and friends (if they have any) but, of course, no one should be forced into therapy if they aren't criminals.
the schizoid personality is quite interesting in my opinion. i think having absolutely no need for others in order to be content is quite remarkable and seems rather inhumane to me. yet, it exists.
Me. I feel it is an accurate assessment of my life and I should feel this way. Do I like it? No. But thats the way it is and how I should feel. If anything I am under dramatizing this. People who have lives and families I can see wanting help but for me I don't have one nor do I have any responsibilities so I don't want any help, besides there isn't any out there unless I wanted to become an addict for the rest of my life, which isn't optimal. Talking to some over zealous psychiatrist may help people who are weak of mind, but I see past their tricks and it has no affect on me. They basically all say the same thing "just think positive and good things will happen"(I was told this since I was a kid) or they just give you pills. If you want to waste your money on something, waste it on a psychiatrist, you may find it amusing...
The only benefit I can see in this would be on evolutionary terms since, as a species, we have survived longer due to our ability to work together. I doubt they are using this logic when making their decisions about what personalities are acceptable and which ones are not, so I don't see any point in these labels at all. We are born with our personalties but society molds them. So really I feel society is to blame for many of these "personality disorders" rather than the individual.
This is totally false and you really don't know what you are talking about if you think this is true. You are clearly biased on the subject.
Mental disorder can be the same as physical disorder. They, both can be cure by pills, but they can also be cured by changing some fundamentals about your life. It has nothing to do with forcing false feeling upon yourself or it will come back eventually.
The way you speak about it is an insult upon those who are really depressed and/or sick and have still some impulse to feel better one day.
No hard feeling only debate
I'm just speaking from my experiences with them. I've dealt with them only twice (once when I was a kid I believe) and the other a year ago. For me I find them to be annoying yet amusing. But overall a huge waste of money IMO, this is just my opinion from my experiences. I would have no reason to be biased unless I was given one, so I guess I am biased based on my personal experiences. I'm sure you are as well on certain things...This is totally false and you really don't know what you are talking about if you think this is true. You are clearly biased on the subject.
Mental disorder can be the same as physical disorder. They, both can be cure by pills, but they can also be cured by changing some fundamentals about your life. It has nothing to do with forcing false feeling upon yourself or it will come back eventually.
The way you speak about it is an insult upon those who are really depressed and/or sick and have still some impulse to feel better one day.
No hard feeling only debate
I dont think all people are motivated that way. Itz has suggested and i am quite sympathetic to this, that he is motivated more by higer logic than just "this makes me unhappy so I avoid it". So if being unhappy is in a higher sense the right thing to do itz will do it.
Of course it is possible that is just a cover for the depression causes you to be too depressed to do anything about the depression, but in general I am pretty sympathetic to the idea as I "live my life" at the higher level too I think.
So things like depression and pain can be like a curious thing to investigate or some sort of weird self actualization.
that of course make make the work of the psychologists pretty hard ... I imagine I would see them in a similar way as Itz, as somehow a bit inferior in their knowledge and trying to pull the wool over my eyes.. and I suppose that would give me a higher level "positive feeling".
Not to be too negitive about psychology.. I think it works partly because of where it is wrong
Like where they used to say a part of you was the devil causing you to do something (lets say drink) and that would be effective because you would section off that part of you and it would atrophe but that it would probably work best where the psychologist actually believed it was the devil...
Exactly, it actually takes work to try to go on with life after all the BS. I don't think certain things can or should be overcome as easily as people say they should, some things you simply can't overcome... Pills are taking the easy way out, I was never 1 to take the easy way. But it works well for many people so thats great for them, but its not for me. I just hate seeing people judging others while looking through a window and assuming what is best for everyone, that leads to a broken society.
Oh I'm not saying that I do have a schizoid personality disorder, but as an introvert I do have most of the 'symptoms' of it and still function so I was just making the case that it shouldn't be considered an illness. You're right in that I don't completely lack emotions, but I'd say my 'range' is much narrower than most people. I haven't cried in over ten years for example. Pretty sure I'm incapable of it these days actually.
I'm perfectly capable of having fun with people but only if I either know them very well or we're doing a shared activity that I enjoy. For example my social life basically consists of playing poker, piano, chess, trading cards and video games with people plus going to see a film every now and again. I'd hate to go out drinking just for the sake of drinking like most people my age.
I know a real schizoid never needs to see friends/family, while I personally would probably start to get lonely after a few months. I can easily go for a few weeks without seeing people I know, no problem.
This sort of stuf makes me wish we were all in the same country so we could meet up and play poker and discuss our personality disorders over a game of chessI'm perfectly capable of having fun with people but only if I either know them very well or we're doing a shared activity that I enjoy. For example my social life basically consists of playing poker, piano, chess, trading cards and video games with people plus going to see a film every now and again. I'd hate to go out drinking just for the sake of drinking like most people my age.
When i was young we used to play "big 2" (da er, some call it "bastard" i think) for hours. that and games of civ 2 multiplayer hehe.
as i said, you're not clinically depressed. i think you're just a pessimist or a realist whose conception of reality is negative if that sounds better. pessimists can be content with being depressed in the colloquial meaning of the word. i doubt that clinically depressed people can as, by definition, they're not content.
if you were 100% assured of your view of reality you would have already killed yourself or indulge in drugs all day long. if life is entirely negative then it's illogical to go on. by wanting to stay alive you admit that you still have some motivation left. this means that there is still meaning in your life. for example, if it wouldn't pleasure you to discuss your ideas you wouldn't discuss them with me right now.
clinically depressed people don't have such motivation. suicide is the ultimate realization of the idea that reality is completely and utterly negative.
antisocial behavior very often means crime. often it also means hurting others psychologically. these are effects that the majority of society rejects so you'll either end up with a therapist or in jail. that's not ideological, that's just a practical, normal, expected response to antisociality.
whether antisociality is part of legitimate personality structures or not is thus of no importance. society will correct such behavior either way.
there's no reason to work therapeutically with people who do not want to change anything as long as they aren't harmful to society. schizoid people would be a good example. clinically depressed aren't able to work most of the time so they are damaging to society if they refuse to be helped. but as i already explained to itz, i don't think there are clinically depressed people who don't want help.
of course, a psychologist won't help you to have higher self-worth in order to betray you so you can feel happier afterwards. a psychologist truly thinks that you're understating your self-worth and overstating the negative aspects of your situation.
therapy isn't easy, it requires a lot of work. drugs don't but they alone are rarely effective in the long term. the most effective treatment currently is a technique called cognitive-behavioral therapy combined with drugs therapy.
i think people are clearly mislead if they think that drugs can solve their problems. they can help you reduce bad symptoms drastically at first but in order to maintain that you need to rethink your philosophy and behavior. cognitive-behavioral therapy helps you do that. if you rely on drugs alone you will probably worsen your situation because you may become addicted and/or damage bodily and mental functioning.
Not necessarily. I was just rereading a Scientific American Mind 2010 article on suicide which states that having a mental disorder (as with your commentary on clinical depression) isn't sufficient to bringing about suicide. As the author writes, "It is not enough to want to die" (January/February, page 42). The resolve to die depends on additional factors including fearlessness, the ability to tolerate pain, and impulsiveness. The latest research shows that fearlessness can be conditioned, as with those who gain more experience with pain and thereby become used to the idea of harming themselves. The lack of these additional variables helps to explain why only about a million people kill themselves each year even though millions more make the attempt.
Very difficult, if not impossible, to diagnose someone online.
So your schizophreninc-antisocial-depressed-bipolar disorder that I diagnosed isn't right? I should review my method then...
So are you saying those who are used to physical pain are more likely to kill themselves if they are depressed as well? Fearlessness I'm not sure... I would think everyone has some amount of fear no matter how much they deny it. Thats why I find it curious why people say those who commit suicide are cowards because it seems like it would take a whole lot of courage if you ask me, willfully jumping into the unknown I would think would be a pretty scary thing... The suicidal person could just as easily call the other person a coward for being scared to die, not like it matters since I doubt the suicidal people could care less about what others think. I picture most of humanity getting pushed towards a cliff, it is inevitable you will fall, yet people still try to hang on to the very end, even if they are just hanging by there fingernails. Perhaps it is just that primal instinct to survive that overrides their ability to let go...
it's very unlikely that someone fulfilling the criteria for clinical depression would engage in a discussion on a forum. that requires motivation and the ability to derive pleasure from it.
if you instead argued that the intrinsic nature of humanity and reality is goodness and eternal bliss and that the depressed and pessimistic are the ignorant ones your statement would be equally valid. it's just a subjective value judgment and a reflection of your life experience.
Okay, maybe once in a while it does work...
I agree with you that most everyone has some amount of fear. I'm guessing the researchers are talking about degrees of it then, and those with less fear are thus more capable of pulling off suicide.
Good points on the definition of 'coward'. People forget that we mean different things by that word, and so they debate over semantics instead of agreed upon meanings---as when people call terrorists cowards in the moral sense while others say they're brave in the more physical sense.
Same can be said for those who are happy and upbeat... But ya basically. Difference is anyone can be turned into a pessimist, everyone can't be turned into an optimist. It is interesting now that I think about it. If you really think about it most people who are pessimist probably have a reason to be pessimistic and the same goes for the opposite. There are exceptions of course but I think this is the general rule...
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