head smeared against
something outside
infinitely outside
of itself
this head
also pressed
against yours
but never enough
head smeared against
something outside
infinitely outside
of itself
this head
also pressed
against yours
but never enough
Agreed. Mind if I ramble with these ideas a bit?Originally Posted by Zefelius
Is it possible to be willing & to engage in conflict w/o ego necessarily being involved? In other words, is it possible for other motivators to drive us? I think so. I've mentioned this movie before but "The Hunted" is interesting study of warrior code & the sacredness of it as well as how it can be perverted. It's not necessarily a great movie per se but it attempts to touch on some of these more abstract ideas & illustrate how they come to define us in the most visceral of ways. Also I find the concepts of Light side & Dark Side in Star Wars interesting. I guess my point is that there seems to be multiple motivators on why people engage (whether it be intellectual, physical, emotional, spiritual, etc...). Some do it to assuage and/or further the demands of their ego, some do it for survival, some seem to do it for a broader purpose, some mix of the fore-mentioned, etc....
I found the games from BioWare of Knights of the Old Republic (both I & II although II wasn't Bioware) illustrated this quite well as well as the Bioware game Jade Empire. I do find that desire mixed with selfish ambition (i.e.: what might be labeled as the realm of the ego) can be a tremendous impediment to peace & understanding & quite self-destructive intrinsically. At the same time, the path to find peace & understanding driven by such egoistic motivations can often do much towards progressing ideas, etc... & be integral to eventually finding peace & understanding. So it's a very interesting idea, the idea that all conflict is good. It is a difficult principle to prove wrong, if not impossible (per your observation).
In short, my view is both yin & yang are essential to life. The intrinsic conflict they represent can cause us to grow as a function of both, not just one or the other. Personally, this is why I think all man-made utopias are doomed to failure. They all essentially attempt to create a world (whether it be intellectual, physical, etc...) where the essential conflict of life is no longer existent & this is promoted as "perfection". I disagree with this approach myself. I believe conflict is an essential ingredient of life that leads us eventually to the idea of spiritual purification which leads towards spiritual perfection. So utopias apart from conflict are simply fallacies attempting to bypass and/or nullify this essential principle of life. No I can't prove it logically, those are just my own thoughts on the matter. The movie: Tron: Legacy, I think does a beautiful job visually illustrating this progression of ideas.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Last edited by Pedal2Metal; 05-06-2012 at 01:19 PM.
I really liked this. Did you author it? Poetry captures & communicates elusive concepts via the medium of written language better & more succinctly than any other form of written language imo. Anyhow that's very cool to share this as poetry is often immensely personal.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Thanks. Sometimes I have experiences that flow into words. I'd love to improve so lately I've been reading some poetry, although I find it very difficult (as a philosopher) to understand sometimes---probably for the reason you pointed out, that it is so personal.
Great thoughts, although difficult to carry out. Yin and yang are both essential, as you said, but the tough part is knowing how to balance them or switch back and forth. My best guess right now is that practicing detachment helps. When we train ourselves to follow debates regardless of the consequences of the arguments, or whether we personally gain from them, then we get better at knowing when an opponent's views are better supported. So perhaps we use the motives of the more selfish ego to passionately throw ourselves into the heat of argumentation, which stimulates an active interest in the debate, while switching to a more collaborative notion of the ego when we see something valid in the opposition's perspective. This isn't easy for people who are so invested in their own world views that they desire to win an argument for the sake of winning an argument, but it seems possible once we align ourselves with truth rather than ideological purity.
I agree completely. Frankly, this has been the personal journey I've been on my entire life although more intently for the last couple of years & continuing on even now. As you said, it is quite excruciatingly difficult at times but that's exactly where the juiciest fruit (so to speak) is located too, both bitter & sweet. I once read a quote (many years ago when I was in high school or college) in Reader's Digest which sticks with me to this day & captures the sentiment reasonably well: "It is the difficulty of a thing that endears it to us."
This has rung true in my own life in every aspect imaginable.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Truth is a matter of perspective, if not artificial all together...
if that is your definition of "subtle" i suppose my point is that all sexism may potentially be subtle and hard to uncover. it is in the muslim world--for muslims--as it is in the western world for westerners. if strength and weakness can be defined differently for men and women respectively then i think any gender based dealing with individuals can be either sexism or not sexism at all. it's just an argument for cultural relativism which is true in my opinion. if the traditional role of the housewife can be both empowering and a sign of weakness then i guess that the docile muslim woman who does not intervene in men's business can be both as well.
as you know it is therefore that i choose to try to make my own values while knowing that they are relative. thus, when women in much popular media are made to be the one who never herself achieves but merely helps a man achieve (and is hence judged as a 'good' woman) i find that sexist. likewise, i find it sexist when it is common practice to permit or ignore several kinds of abuses against women committed by men in some muslim societies. likewise, when women are paid less even though they do equal, not less, work and so on.
i increasingly fail to be afraid of death. one of the primary fears seems to stem from the idea that human existence ends with the termination of the human organism. here's why i find it unlikely that afterlife does not exist:
in our society, the concept of afterlife is mostly problematic when you're a monist physicalist. if all that is is physical there is no place for life to persist without a body, right? however, since all human emotion, memory, experience, and life is physical these cannot disappear. they can merely change form and that is what happens when the human body and brain dissolve. thus, human consciousness is eternally essential to the universe and it can never disappear. human experience and life can never disappear. in fact, they have always existed. ironically, when you as a physicalist monist claim that afterlife does not exist you are being self-contradictory as disappearance does not occur in a physicalist world, only transformation. if there is disappearance, monist physicalism is proven invalid and some kind of dualism is proven valid as that which has disappeared must have ascended to another metaphysical realm.
but even if human experience utterly ends with death i still don't see a reason to be fearful. firstly, this would render human life ultimately and intrinsically meaningless. if human experience terminates with death all human experience had never been of value. thus, it would not matter whether we lived or died in an instant. reality would implode and there was no existence at all. whether we are afraid or not would be completely meaningless.
secondly, the idea of not existing is one of the most peaceful i've ever heard of. no pain, no worries. no happiness either but that wouldn't matter since there's no existence on which basis to be happy. i imagine it to be akin to having the best sleep of all eternity.
Doesn't the concept of consciousness being more than the sum of its parts kind of negate this argument though? I mean you can vaporize a computer, does all the porn on it remain forever, or transcend to another level of existence? I doubt it.thus, human consciousness is eternally essential to the universe and it can never disappear. human experience and life can never disappear. in fact, they have always existed. ironically, when you as a physicalist monist claim that afterlife does not exist you are being self-contradictory as disappearance does not occur in a physicalist world, only transformation. if there is disappearance, monist physicalism is proven invalid and some kind of dualism is proven valid as that which has disappeared must have ascended to another metaphysical realm.
I don't see what is so wrong with this, yet it really freaks people out for some reason. Personally I would be ecstatic, if there is such a thing, that no life existed beyond this one. Though it sounds very probable there may be some form of an afterlife, it is simply because their is such a huge amount circumstantial evidence. No, there is no concrete evidence for a god, but there have been many cases with successful convictions with way less circumstantial evidence than we have proving there is an afterlife. I say this because the odds of life occurring are basically zero, if you look it up you will find this to be true... On the other hand there is a virtually unlimited amount of time for life to occur so I guess that argument could be made as well... Part of it I think is our ego, we believe we are so important yet the universe has existed billions of years without us and yet we deserve an afterlife just because? So I have come up with the most logical conclusion I can, while the statistical likely of a god or afterlife existing is pretty much zero, the odds of life occurring are the same if not less than likely. So if there is an afterlife I don't think it is like anything humanity has made it out to be, if it is then the rules are pretty stupid... I don't believe something came from nothing A.K.A the big bang. The big bang did likely occur but scientists that believe it say it came from nothing which is impossible in this universe... So maybe this universe was created from another one or something intelligent did create the big bang who knows? I know I won't be wasting my life praying to some god or gods just because people say that is what god would want us to do, I mean do you realize how stupid that sounds? If I was god I wouldn't want my creations to be aware of my existence at all so they could enjoy their lives, but I guess I can't really claim to know what is best, after all I'm only human... So this seems like the most simple and obvious truth...
"Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose."
If it is anything like having surgery I think death will be awesome, if you have had surgeries you know that feeling. Several hours have passed by even though to you no time has passed by at all, you wake up and can't believe it is over already. Those are really the most peaceful time I've ever had in my life, I'm not sure if it counts since no time techinqualy took place for me, but I enjoyed them non the lessImagine a world without time... Wow... Truly is amazing to think about...
"My name is Neo!"
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
I think it's only natural to be afraid, in some measure, of the unknown. I agree we can still grow & it's beneficial to do so in spite of our fears. I must admit a blatant cynical skepticism of anyone who claims to have absolutely no fear of death although I'm well aware you aren't asserting this. In areas where we have no experience & no capacity to make physical inquiry, I think some amount of trepidation is unavoidable & healthy even (fear often protects us in the physical world) although the same can also create a sense of adventure & new discovery (fear can be exciting & alluring).
I know that's how I always felt when exploring caves in the dark, climbing various mountain peaks, seeing a mother bear with her cubs in our campsite & the like when I was younger with my father on our summer vacations. It was both exciting & frightening at the same time. I think virtually any true adrenaline rush provokes this kind of mix of emotions.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Last edited by Pedal2Metal; 05-07-2012 at 10:43 AM.
Funny you feel this way. I hated my first surgery because the sodium pentathol pre-surgery drip gave me a feeling of no control & I felt like I was a prisoner in my own body. It really freaked me out. When I awoke, it was one of the worst experiences in my life & still is to this day. The next 2 surgeries, I instructed the hospital staff to give me no pre-surgery drip (just saline) & I felt immensely better & relaxed & ready to die if that occurred. As they told me, most patients feel more relaxed with a pre-surgery drip as it relieves their anxiety/fears. In my case, I postulate that I have less-than-average anxiety over facing my death but higher-than-average anxiety over losing control of my faculties & body. This is possibly one contributing reason why I've never done any drugs despite plenty of opportunity (my locker mate in high school was one of the predominant dealers) & it only took 1 drunken binge in college for me to swear off drunken binges going forward. I've never really understood or been attracted to the idea of "losing control" intentionally.If it is anything like having surgery I think death will be awesome, if you have had surgeries you know that feeling. Several hours have passed by even though to you no time has passed by at all, you wake up and can't believe it is over already. Those are really the most peaceful time I've ever had in my life, I'm not sure if it counts since no time techinqualy took place for me, but I enjoyed them non the less
Back on topic now...
So I've actually felt both ways: terrified as well as intently ready & peaceful. I doubt I can truly predict how it will actually be to die but my experience with surgeries says it can go either way, so I try to prepare accordingly mentally & spiritually.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Pah. Maybe not.
Last edited by Flash Bang Over; 05-07-2012 at 01:09 PM.
I tend to think that truth is neither universal nor perspectival, since both are too one-sided. We can never reach universal truth since truth and reality are in flux, but neither is it reducible to a simple perspective since every perspective is nothing more than a fragment of reality. Since the totality of reality cannot be reduced to a fragment, our perspectives always fall short of capturing what is real.
We definitely disagree on this. I believe that some forms of sexism are extraordinarly obvious. To conflate the imagery of women in the media with depriving them of voting rights, for example, goes against our human ability to discern differences even when those differences operate within a spectrum of gradations.
It's fascinating to me how different people describe the same entity/principle/phenomenon with completely different descriptive language. I prefer to describe what you're articulating as:
The finite can not fully experience/comprehend the infinite. In other words, the infinite is not fully knowable by the finite. This follows, in my view, by definition of the terms "infinite" & "finite" but it's good to precisely articulate it.
I also hold this principle to be true (obviously) although I find the above description facilitates my own appreciation of it more readily. It's really interesting to me how differently we choose to describe the idea. This would seem to indicate how we conceptualize the idea in our own brains. So the idea is same/similar but it's conceived internally in a significantly different manner. This would seem to provide some anecdotal evidence to support the idea of individual learning styles.
I find this pretty amazing & really gets me thinking about the need for teachers to be versed in multiple learning styles in order to maximally facilitate the communication, retention, & developmental understanding of knowledge to others. Do teachers at any level (elementary, secondary, collegiate) get any thorough & formal training in how different people conceptualize ideas in the brain & what teaching methods are most effective/ineffective for each conceptualization modality? If so, are there any readable references on this topic to assist with general communication?
thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal
+1
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
I'm referring to the actual surgery, not all the stuff before it. My last surgery was the most painful because the pr-drip hurt really, really bad don't know why. I had to have it in for a hour and half because the doctor was late so that was fun as wellYa, I've decided I'm not having surgeries anymore... I almost got locked into an elevator afterwards that probably would've been a long time to. An emergency alarm went off and the nurse was wheeling me into the elevator then she stopped and said that that the doors wouldn't open until the alarm went off so we took the long way lol. Whew! I think if I would've gotten stuck in that elevator I would've gone on a killing spree, I wouldn't have been surprised but I probably would've lost my freaking mind.
Thought better of it heh?
Still I think I understood the gist of what you meant. Our experiences can always enrich us, even if they aren't/weren't the wisest or healthiest choices per se. Something to that effect anyhow...
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Yikes! Yeah, I pretty much hate surgeries now too. I rarely play any video games now due to a rubbing nerve in my neck where the nerve bundle comes out the left side. They said I could have surgery but I much prefer to manage it with PT & refraining from video games.I'm referring to the actual surgery, not all the stuff before it. My last surgery was the most painful because the pr-drip hurt really, really bad don't know why. I had to have it in for a hour and half because the doctor was late so that was fun as well
On the topic of the surgery itself, I always found it amazing how one can distinguish between the state of unconsciousness caused by general anethesia & the state of unconsciousness caused by sleep. Personally, I find sleep more desirable due to having some awareness of time passing but that's within the "finite bubble" context. I have no idea which would be preferred within an "infinite bubble" context.
I always felt like Rip Van Winkle when I awoke from surgeries, like I had simply lost some of my life's timeline. It's a pretty bizarre & alien experience & I've never duplicated it precisely with only sleep. In times of great illness where I've slept straight for 48 hours & awoke at the same time I went to sleep 2 days earlier, it came close but even then my brain was able to build some semblance of awareness of the passage of time. With surgery, it simply doesn't exist & there is no awareness of it. It's quite bizarre.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
that's an interesting take. i personally am not too convinced of this "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" things and am still an oldschool reductionist in many areas of inquiry but that's not the position of mainstream science any more. generally, i think i would agree that this would contradict monism. but on the other hand, depending on how you interpret that rule it can still fit with physicalism. what it often means is that smaller parts through their interaction with one another create that greater organism which is more than the parts themselves. so subparts + interactions = whole. though, these interactions are also just physical, so from that point of view it's all still just monist.
aren't you just culturally biased? what if all kinds of sexism we can identify are usually subtle when they're from our own culture because we've grown up with them? of course, from our western perspective muslim sexism is obvious but i doubt that is the case for a muslim who was born in riyadh. perhaps some attribution bias can be applied here again as i highly doubt that you or me would feel the same towards muslim sexism if we were born in a traditionalist muslim country as muslims. likewise, for muslims it might be obvious that our beauty contests are perversely sexist while many westerners don't have a problem with them.
to me a great part of this issue is one of socially constructed truth. 100 years ago we didn't have a problem with women not voting in the west. it was not sexism by consensus because the woman was not rational so it was ludicrous to give her the right to vote. it just wasn't sexism because what is sexism is defined by humans. the same might go for the muslim world. it took us several hundred years to advance our gender egalitarianism. truth isn't changed over night. other people of this world will have to go through similar processes.
if i remember correctly you wrote something about some drugs actually enhancing control. i think there is no doubt about that. that's why we give ritalin and methamphetamine to kids with ADHD. stimulants (ritalin, meth, caffeine, cocaine, etc.) generally enhance all kinds of our powers in small to moderate doses. downers like alcohol and benzodiazepines do the opposite and confine our abilities. i find it funny that you would mention LSD as a drug that enhances control. you might be right though. experienced users seem to be able to control their trip and thereby, as they have access to more spheres of reality than sober people, may be said to have greater control of various sorts.
i had surgery several times. i found the comatose condition neither enthralling not negative which you would perhaps expect of experiencing nothing at all. that's also why it's somewhat of a paradox to refer to total death (without afterlife) as peaceful and the like as there is no agent actually experiencing peacefulness. you do not experience. anyway, it would be philosophically equally absurd to fear the dead condition as there is nothing to fear about about absolute absence of pain. of course, i understand the human fear nonetheless.If it is anything like having surgery I think death will be awesome, if you have had surgeries you know that feeling. Several hours have passed by even though to you no time has passed by at all, you wake up and can't believe it is over already. Those are really the most peaceful time I've ever had in my life, I'm not sure if it counts since no time techinqualy took place for me, but I enjoyed them non the less
what would be much preferable is to live a life of constant orgasmic ecstasy. i actually do not understand why that isn't the case. it's quite irritating that we have to face struggle and pain instead. i sometimes cannot see the meaning in it. if it's possible for the human being so feel so much pleasure as sex or a MDMA experience why do we have to go through the other crap as well? in some ways i am looking forward to terminal cancer so i will finally be free to do heroin and other deadly drugs all day as i'll have nothing to lose. why can't we just exist as eternal bliss? if there is a god i'll tell him face to face that his design sucks should i ever meet him.
From a pure time analytical view, the Muslim world (~600 AD->present, ~1400 years) has had considerably more time than the USA (1787 AD->1920 AD, ~150 years) to arrive at this cultural result. So based on that fact alone, it's clear that measurable cultural differences exist with regards to gender equality.
Your premise hinges on the unstated but underlying assumption that both cultures slant in the same general direction but with varying velocities so that it's merely a matter of time before both arrive at the same destination of perspective. While that may be still valid eventually, given the timeline indicates roughly a 10x advantage historically for the Islamic world & yet, the lack of gender equality in the Islamic world is obvious (& well-documented) & there is no need for subtle analysis. This factual reality undermines your position significantly.
No practicing engineer could ignore a 10x mountain of data that undermined his engineering model & assumptions. He would immediately discard the model & assumptions in search of new ones that more accurately described the measured data. I recommend you do likewise, assuming you're interested in following the data more than your own positional perspective.
thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's...#United_States
For the exact same reason why responsible parents don't give their kids everything they want, at any age. It's the most certain way to destroy any hope of a productive life. Do you hate your parents too?
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Ya time doesn't exist when your under which I think would be the best way to die. Just get some anesthesia and don't wake up harmless right? Millions of years will pass by and you won't even know it. Imagine waking up millions of years later, that would be super freaky lol...
Its true you can't be happy in that state, but I know I was immediately unhappy when I awoke and I wished I was back under anesthesia again so I assume I was happier in that state...
I agree without pain we can not experience joy but it seems there is far, far more pain in this world than joy. At least from what I've experienced the ratio is around 10-1...For the exact same reason why responsible parents don't give their kids everything they want, at any age. It's the most certain way to destroy any hope of a productive life. Do you hate your parents too?
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
I agree although probably a much higher ratio imo. However, another truth is the integral from 0->infinity infinitely exceeds any integral from 0->N for any & all values of N. So if N is all there is, everything is ultimately meaningless anyhow. That would tend towards the conclusion that there is nothing better than the pursuit of hedonism. However, if infinity truly exists, then no amount of pain or joy within N can compare to the joy or pain beyond N. Ultimately, everything boils down to what we choose to believe. This is Neo's answer to Mr. Smith: Choice.
Choice or meaninglessness. It's up to each one of us to decide which is the greater & commit to the path we choose. So while I disagree with hedonism & don't reckon hedonism to have any redeeming qualities myself, I can respect the demonstration of the purity of hedonistic commitment (Oscar Wilde in his prime comes to mind). Most people in my view are simply noncommital, which ultimately robs them of everything, even the finite & meaningless pleasures of hedonism. Never mind if choice really is the greater of the two.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Last edited by Pedal2Metal; 05-08-2012 at 12:56 AM.
Movie Recommendation: The Wave (available on NetFlix)
ShowTek, I suspect you will like this movie if you haven't already seen it. I'm curious on your take on the movie & the accuracy/validity of the cultural presentation. A buddy of mine at work recommended it to me as I lamented the feeling of losing my soul to the "Borg Vortex" at work. You'd have to work at our company to know what I meant but I understand why he made this recommendation now.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Last edited by Pedal2Metal; 05-08-2012 at 12:45 AM.
If words are merely social constructions, without any objective referent, then all meaning is ultimately the same: man is woman, black is white, and up is down. But if words like sexism mean anything at all, then there are bound to be some cases which are more obvious instances of it than others. You can argue that social customs blind some groups to what we think is obvious, but this would fail to explain how various forms of resistance rise up against the status quo throughout history. If some people during those times and within those cultures are able to comprehend obvious inequalities, then there must be something objective for them to comprehend outside of the cultural influences and biases surrounding them.
Well, yes, but not perhaps for the reasons you think. I don’t think I can articulate my arguments well enough amongst the writers here, almost intimidated. I’m glad you got my general point though.Thought better of it heh?
Still I think I understood the gist of what you meant. Our experiences can always enrich us, even if they aren't/weren't the wisest or healthiest choices per se. Something to that effect anyhow...
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Yes that was the gist of it, alcohol and benzo’s inhibit the mind while others free it, subjective if it’s real or imagined I suppose, like many concepts here. LSD is a tricky one and subject to frame of mind at the time but feelings so powerful, it’s only been exceeded by the feeling I have to love and protect my kids and family (and difficult for anyone who is not a parent to realize just how powerful I mean) .
It (LSD) even along with (but to a lesser extent) cannabis and other alkaloids give an (perceived) ability to process multiple though streams both individually and collectively and just ‘make sense’ of things. I know I probably just sound like some ‘stoner’, but really I’m not. I’ve taken what I can from the experience.
It’s difficult to explain, but on one hand I think it’s something everyone should experience, but on the other, I would be really troubled if when my kids grow up came to me and said they had or wanted to try it (legal arguments aside).
No doubt I’ll go back and edit this one too.
it seems quite dishonest to me to compare the muslim world with the US which is a country whose people's culture obviously didn't start in 1787, especially since the more apposite comparison does not support your point as well, i.e. comparing the muslim world with the western christian world.
besides, whether time is the lone crucial component i doubt. my hunch would be that economic developments would also have a lot to do with this. though, there are countless probable factors.
moreover, we shouldn't forget that the muslim world isn't one uniform fundamentalist bunch. there are great ideological differences between various areas with saudi arabia being a terrible theocracy and turkey in many ways being western.
are you sure that you understand the argument of cultural relativism? the fact that sexism in the muslim world is often obvious from a western perspective (which is my own) i do not dispute.the lack of gender equality in the Islamic world is obvious (& well-documented) & there is no need for subtle analysis. This factual reality undermines your position significantly.
we were shown an earlier version of the film in highschool. since that's more than 5 years ago i don't remember much. the results do not surprise me as such, though, only their strength. thanks for pointing out the experiment anyway, i can definitely use it in my bachelor project.
do you know the experiment of jane elliott, also a school teacher? one day she assigned all blue eyed pupils of her class to the superior race and next day she reversed the condition making all brown eyed the superior ones. the results were astounding.
yes, all these words only become differentiated and meaningful by consensus. it's not strictly about words, though, but about all concepts of the human mind.
well, sometimes it seems somewhat random to me what kinds of aspects of the status quo are protested against and which aren't. the fact that more equal treatment of mean and women is now demanded in several societies might also just be a response to exposure to western society. but i agree that human society has generally tilted towards more and more equality throughout its history. anyhow, we have to be careful not to conflate equality and sexism as certainly not all people of this world value gender equality, including many women who protest against the establishment of more equal social customs.You can argue that social customs blind some groups to what we think is obvious, but this would fail to explain how various forms of resistance rise up against the status quo throughout history. If some people during those times and within those cultures are able to comprehend obvious inequalities, then there must be something objective for them to comprehend outside of the cultural influences and biases surrounding them.
but why? if used responsibly, many drugs are not very dangerous, especially the spiritual ones like LSD or psilocybin mushrooms. perhaps it would be safer to simply prepare them properly instead of them having to try it all alone, secretly, and unprepared.
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