Sorry, I snipped out most of your rabid fanboism ... I just wanted to say that a lot of people (like myself) read these boards on a regular basis, but don't feel the need to post idiocy just to raise our post count.Originally Posted by zoudazou
Just thought I would bring that to your attention.
Hello, Sir! I have a house for sale! It is a three bedroom, two bathroom house, with a two car garage.
(A day later)
Well yes, I understand that toilets were in the bathroom, but at closing I don't think I ever said they would flush... but for $5 I will give you the code to unlock the floater in the tank.
(Two days later)
What? Well of course there was a dishwasher in the house, but I am pretty sure we never discussed the keycode to unlock the door, ha ha! For $5 I will give you the code so you can open it and put dishes in.
(An hour later)
Sir, I never said the dish washer would work without unlocking the ability to turn on, all you paid for was the ability to actually open the door. Why are you so angry? Did I say that the key to open the dishwasher door would also allow you to turn ON the dish washer? No, I did not. But for $5 ...
Yeah... this is how ridiculous your argument for 2K sounds. ANYONE with a SHRED of common sense and a well developed sense of Right vs Wrong can tell that what 2K did was total bull****... and it's nice to be able to tell who are the people who know bull**** when they see it, and who are the complacent "sheeple". I like to know whose posts I can just skip on general principle.
The analogies in this thread are getting ridiculous. The game, as sold, was COMPLETE. The legitimate beef is the deception that this was actually DLC, instead of a key. This is the only legitimate complaint that has any potential legal or ethical merit. Everything else is just bent feelings, which are largely justified. But comparing this game to an incomplete product is simply untrue.
Keep your emotions in check and hold 2K accountable for what they truly did wrong. Let's not muddle this with ridiculous accusations.
Last edited by Tech Paul; 03-12-2010 at 11:15 PM. Reason: reduced text size.
So let me get this straight... and please correct me if I am wrong...
It is IMPOSSIBLE for 2K to release NEW content without it splitting the multiplayer community? SO there will never ever ever in a million years be true DLC for BS2mp right? 'Cause it's not possible right? And the single player DLC won't be on the disc right? 'Cause its not going to "split the community" right?
So this "technical issue" with the game engine... does it mean they have to release what has to be the lamest DLC I've seen in years that was obviously meant to be part of the main mp experience??? I would love to hear more about this technical issue that forces 2K to release lame content.
People aren't mad just because the DLC is on the disc, we are mad because when you look at the whole situation it's obvious that 2K simply sold an incomplete game then turned around and grabbed more money from what SHOULD have been there in the first place. I really don't think you would see this level of anger if the original MP had all of this stuff from the get go and the on disc DLC was a bunch of new maps, weapons etc.
Furthermore, transparency and honesty up front would have gone a long way to preventing this incident.
Last edited by Tech Paul; 03-12-2010 at 11:22 PM. Reason: Took large text out of the quote
The game wasn't incomplete. They held back content that was not necessary to enjoy the game. You would have been missing nothing had you never known about this "DLC."
Yes, which is exactly what I'm trying to convey.Furthermore, transparency and honesty up front would have gone a long way to preventing this incident.
Correct. Relic Games (like the latest Dawn of War 2) are your prime examples.
Also, Naughty Dog did this perfect for Uncharted 2. The first patch (I believe) included an extra map on it (The Fort) FOR FREE (as it was a patch), after this they released character skin packs and just recently the big-ish Uncharted: Drake's Fortune MP pack, which contained new skins/new maps.
They could have charged for that first new map, they could have bundled it with one of the later DLC's but they didn't, they released it for free so people who didn't want to buy it got extra playtime and made it better of course.
While this doesn't relate to 2K in the way that ND's DLC was made after the game shipped, while 2K didn't, it just goes to show how much more they value their community.
What can also be said about Naughty Dog is their blog, they don't have their own forums (yet atleast) but they get all their feedback about patches/maps/glitches/DLC's from people commenting on their blog posts and of course looking at other forums like on Playstation.com and on Twitter.
2K could learn alot from these guys, and I'm sure there are others that they could take a page out of their books too.
And oh yeah, they actually fixed the majority of problems that people had with the game (bug wise), much more than 2K are doing at the moment.
Last edited by Mr.Big_Daddy; 03-12-2010 at 11:11 PM.
Valve's DLC on the PC is always free no matter how big it is in terms of content or the space it takes.
(Unfortunately on the 360 MS has told them that they aren't allowed to release it for free, each and every time they asked them)
In good faith I paid in full for my collector's edition of this game which was $100+ with tax... and yet I missed about 26k worth of data I failed to purchase... Can somebody please help me understand this concept.
The way this was handled may very well stop me for getting ANY future DLC. I would have rather downloaded something than purchase a unlock key. Very poor taste.
a problem with elizabeths argument of saving us hdd space. if they ever patch the console version of bioshock 2 how much space will that take up? B1 has a 5 gig install plus a 222mb patch. same thing with B2. 5 gig install and the patch will probably be pretty hefty in size.
if you are going to sell me an unlock key, tell me its an unlock key before i buy it.
That is no excuse at all. Let me give you an example, there is a game you might be aware of called Metal Gear Solid 4. It had an online component called Metal Gear Online. Their way of DLC, was to MAKE content AFTER the game was released. Now they had the same thought. Won't it split the player base? Not if everyone had it. So when an expansion was made everyone was required to go through a large update where they would all download that content and only those that paid for it would get access to it.
You lot however are not making content after the game has been released and then making sure everyone has it so that the player base isn't split. You lot are making content, holding a chunk of it back and then releasing it for a price.
That's shady. And that's why people hate the money grabbing tactic. DLC was not meant to be a system for unlocking content already on a disc, but to be a system where companies can create new things for games that have been released.
In short, you have no excuse to not work things around as Konami did with their game. That way they were actually making new content for the gamers and not allowing the player base to be split at the same time.
Yeah, and if you only have less than 110KB left on your HDD then you should have cleared it out/got a bigger HDD a long time ago.
I remember a few weeks ago you had a very different stance when most of us had proof the 'dlc' was already on this disc and you just couldn't believe or didn't want too. Fact is the game is incomplete the 'dlc' was in the game way way before release and then someone decided that they'd cut it and offer it as dlc to make more money a poor choice and that does result in an incomplete game. We knew this content was in the game then mysteriously its gone and poof now its offered as 'dlc'. If you bought the game you own the disc and should own all the content on it, owning only 95% of it means you were sold an incomplete game and people have every right to be angry about it. If those of us that stand up against this stuff didn't it will happen over and over and we don't want that to be the future of gaming for us. Although the rest of you pushovers I understand are happy to buy a turd if a Bioshock logo was imprinted on it.
lol, it doesn't take a genius to realize that Bioshock 2 is using the UE3 engine, the same engine used for EPIC's Gears of War 2 game... Have you heard of the exclusive content called the GOLDEN LANCER & HAMMEERBURST? Yeah, & those are something that wasn't already on the disc that people who Pre-ordered got to play with exclusively. If I remember correctly they were downloads... Did that split the player base in that game engine, you know the same one Bioshock 2 is using?
Last edited by Mikewarrior; 03-13-2010 at 12:59 AM.
Well the patches seem to replace data, not add to it. When they're patching the game, they're basically sending you new versions of any affected files that they've changed. So while there may be some differences in size, you're not going to be adding large amounts of data onto your game, just replacing what's there.
actually it's 2.5, and not 3.0, they got lazy and decided not to go for the newer engine so they didn't have to rewrite any code, which is a reasonable move, but it greatly held the game back as far as mechanics go (if they had of updated the engine it would solve the notorious "lock box" issue, and have allowed for much more on screen at once, as well as more complex game mechanics, and a more stable multiplayer)
So you think EPIC made the 2.5 UE3 engine it not possible to add DLC to a player (We are not talking of exclusive maps here) without splitting the player base?
And I apologized for believing the hype, I made no secret of it.
You still don't get it. 2K decided to hold back the code, they made a conscious decision to make this the first DLC. This is no different that many other companies. Even Borderlands had the first DLC ready to go before game release. The difference here is the way they went about it, and the way they lied about the fact that it was DLC, when it is obviously not. I'm trying to get you people to understand that a business decision is not unethical. But misrepresentation is. Be mad about the proper offense.Fact is the game is incomplete the 'dlc' was in the game way way before release and then someone decided that they'd cut it and offer it as dlc to make more money a poor choice and that does result in an incomplete game. We knew this content was in the game then mysteriously its gone and poof now its offered as 'dlc'. If you bought the game you own the disc and should own all the content on it, owning only 95% of it means you were sold an incomplete game and people have every right to be angry about it. If those of us that stand up against this stuff didn't it will happen over and over and we don't want that to be the future of gaming for us. Although the rest of you pushovers I understand are happy to buy a turd if a Bioshock logo was imprinted on it.
Here's the problem... There is no proof that the Borderlands DLC was FINISHED before the game went GOLD. However, in Bioshock 2's case the reality is that content on the Disc was finished, & PURPOSELY held/locked out in order to cash-in.
This is the problem with ALL DLC = It makes developers/Publishers have easy control on what they want to do with finished content, & allowing them to easily screw us all out of more money by way of DLC/Keys.
For those of you who purchased the collector's edition... Open up the art book and look at the multiplayer art section. There you will see the art for both of the "DLC" player models...
I think something like this would have been the best solution.
Yeah I noticed this but I thought nothing of it. In retrospect there were many signs that foreshadowed this awful DLC business, but I think most of us love 2K so much that it didn't even blip the radar.For those of you who purchased the collector's edition... Open up the art book and look at the multiplayer art section. There you will see the art for both of the "DLC" player models...
I think the real issue here is consistency. 2K is an awesome company, the viral marketing, the free schwag, the frickin fantastic games, and people like Liz here on the boards, we were used to being served 12oz steaks for dinner, but with the DLC we got 2 1/2 chicken mcnuggets and no dipping sauce.
For me personally 2K still has multiple mistakes ahead of them before I would even consider excommunicating them. I have my Rapture Record, my IOOP card, my kick ass games, and I've had the pleasure of meeting Liz in person so I know that 2K gives a damn about it's customers. I guess what I'm trying to say is that 2K has spoiled us, so when something like this happens it's a complete shock to us loyal fans.
I don't think 2K can apologize and give everyone their money back and make this DLC free, but I do think this will be a lesson for future DLC's, and that's good enough for me.
Last edited by Steinmans_Apprentice; 03-13-2010 at 02:20 AM.
Oh no, even with 2.5 there's no way it would have split the player base, as long as a patch was released. I'm just pointing out that it was 2.5, and in fact not 3.0, and how if they had of upgraded, it would have greatly improved the game, and probably have helped fix, if not eliminate in the first place, the lag in multiplayer.
See it's things like this that always chaps my hide... Your bias is getting in the way of the real issue (Deception) that has been proven they are capable of.
I will never understand those who PAY for quality think they owe their undying love for such a company when they get quality for their money in return. What is it... You don't think we all deserve quality for our money?
Not for me... All this will teach them is to hold MORE content back from the finished game, so they can release it afterwards with a big DLC download that people will really want a month or so later. They just hold on to that content so that we gamers think it was worked on afterwards, when it truly was finished before the game went gold.
The smart people don't support DLC AT ALL due to what I believe is common practice, yet it's almost impossible to prove!
Of course I do, I wouldn't be here supporting people who are pissed off if I didn't! I am in agreement we didn't get quality... I don't think you have read my entire comments to this thread and came in kinda late, but in summary I agree people have the right to be ticked off.
I have had quality from 2K up until this DLC mess, so rather than let this one crappy incident ruin a positive business relationship, they get a mulligan on this one. I've got a free vinyl Rapture record on my wall for christ sakes. I'm not going to start protesting 2K's hq and demanding everyone be marched out and shot. I've been given 10 times the value in viral marketing material for free in comparison to this $5 patch. I know that's not the point, but that's MY reason for cutting them some slack.
Last edited by Steinmans_Apprentice; 03-13-2010 at 02:31 AM.
Seems very good of you, but you are not helping yourself, or us gamers alike by cutting them slack just for their past endeavors. It's "What have you done for me lately to deserve my money" for ALL gamers, not just your self-centeredness. So they give you a record gift, & you forgive...How very Government official like of you. Do you have any other secret ties/agendas that helps 2K get a pass from you?
Do you ever question that if they are capable of doing something like this, that they most likely have done it before without your knowledge? Yeah, I know... Ignorance is bliss.
So just because you have a fight with your girlfriend you break up with her?
Wait, are we even talking about a video game anymore?
and yes, 2K has paid for my "silence" with this shiny new Rapture Record LP. Jeaaaaaalous?
Last edited by Steinmans_Apprentice; 03-13-2010 at 02:55 AM.
It relates to the subject at hand... So, do you pay for your Girlfriend to give you quality like 2K should?So just because you have a fight with your girlfriend you break up with her?
Wait, are we even talking about a video game anymore?
Well, the diamond ring wasn't free... so yeah!
Then you are clueless, & have done so for all the wrong reasons... You do something like that because you LOVE that person, & are showing them how you feel.
Not to manipulate someone in worshiping you like 2K had done with you.
Everyone should probably read their EULA, you only own a license to use the software, you don't own anything on the disk. You don't even own videos you make of BioShock 2 and upload to YouTube, 2K does, and they can do whatever they want with it, including take it down or plaster ads all over it.
Granted 2K could have been more open with the DLC and just let the public know that it is an unlock key instead of actual downloaded content. The reason 2K Elizabeth gave is quite reasonable. I remember when DLC came out for Battlefield 2142, it really split the community badly. For those that did not buy the content you could barely find a server still running the old maps. Then you were up against players with better weapons and upgrades than you could get. I felt bad for those players (I bought the content on day 1) and I think BF:2142 lost a lot of players then, and I respect 2K's attempt to tr and keep the community together, maybe the situation could have been handled better though. If 2K had told the truth it probably would have prevented some of the backlash. 2K will know for next time, personally I don't really hold it against them, 2K is the business of making money. This may not be the best method, but it is the one 2K chose, and it is to later to go back now.
As an example though, if you go out and buy a copy of Windows 7 home basic and install it on your computer, then later decide you want Ultimate. Microsoft makes you pay and you only get a key. Yes, that's right, Ultimate is already on the disk, in fact, it is already installed on your hard drive. To upgrade you go to upgrade center on your desktop and type in the key. Then you have all the Ultimate features. Do you own Windows 7 Ultimate before you buy the key? No, you own a license to use Home Basic.
To 2K, maybe next time just tell the truth? Sure there will still be angry customers, but there are always angry customers. It's better to tell the truth and endure the wrath of a few angry customers, rather than lie and have the truth come out on terms other than your own, and piss off all the customers.
As for me, will I buy the DLC? No, not for the reason that it was hidden and lied about, but because I have no interest in BioShock 2 multiplay.If there will be single player DLC, then yes I will definitely be buying that.
OMG, I can't even recognize that horse anymore!!!!!
I think the point's been made that we are not happy(the majority of us anyway) with the status of this whole "dlc" transaction. Let's just hope the single player dlc isn't already on the disc too.
I won't be surprised if future content is. At this point, would anyone be surprised?OMG, I can't even recognize that horse anymore!!!!!
I think the point's been made that we are not happy(the majority of us anyway) with the status of this whole "dlc" transaction. Let's just hope the single player dlc isn't already on the disc too.
The only thing 2K can really do is come clean and say that it's the business model they chose. If they go further than that I'd be surprised. Maybe I'm just cynical now.
As long as the hate is aimed where it should, I'm on board for venting anger.
Did anyone else notice that about the only people defending 2K's business practices are moderators? Do they get free t-shirts or something?
I think I have the advantage of putting a face to the name and have interacted with 2K people in real life, not behind a computer monitor in my parent's basement sort of speak, so yeah I have a bit more compassion and am willing to turn the other cheek. It's one mistake, name some other times 2K totally boned you. This was the only time for me, and I think it's a bad decision to cut off my arm just because I was frostbit on my pinky finger.
This thread has gone beyond it's expiry date. I am agreeing that people have a right to be angry and people are finding a way to argue over the fact I agree with them.
Last edited by Steinmans_Apprentice; 03-13-2010 at 03:16 AM.
I know, but it just seems like overkill now. The same things are being repeated over and over. People know you're angry, and we are too. The past 40 pages of posts have been mostly angry :P How much more can you really say? I'd say jump on Bio 2 mp to vent your anger there, but I think that would just make you more angry. (disconnected 3 times, getting no adam yesterday playing mp)
We never said we own the IP. But yes we expect that we are licensed to use all of the content that's on the disk. The EULA never mentioned that parts of the disc content will be locked unless we pay an extra fee.
If we were aware of this, the situation would be different.
- Too bad.Everyone should probably read their EULA, you only own a license to use the software, you don't own anything on the disk. You don't even own videos you make of BioShock 2 and upload to YouTube, 2K does, and they can do whatever they want with it, including take it down or plaster ads all over it.
- No one is arguing about that. It's the fact that WE ALL KNOW that the content was finished before the game went GOLD & they purposely held the content back to screw their fans even you, because you now got less in your game than what was planned. Please ask yourself, "How far will this go, & how far will we allow it?"
Granted 2K could have been more open with the DLC and just let the public know that it is an unlock key instead of actual downloaded content. The reason 2K Elizabeth gave is quite reasonable. I remember when DLC came out for Battlefield 2142, it really split the community badly. For those that did not buy the content you could barely find a server still running the old maps. Then you were up against players with better weapons and upgrades than you could get. I felt bad for those players (I bought the content on day 1) and I think BF:2142 lost a lot of players then,
- Wait, if it split the players, then how come you talk of "you were up against players with better weapons and upgrades than you could get"
- Of course MAPS that you buy would be entirely different than player specific items, due to a different AREA completely that those don't buy cannot go.
and I respect 2K's attempt to tr and keep the community together
- You don't really believe in that excuse, do you?
As an example though, if you go out and buy a copy of Windows 7 home basic and install it on your computer, then later decide you want Ultimate. Microsoft makes you pay and you only get a key. Yes, that's right, Ultimate is already on the disk, in fact, it is already installed on your hard drive. To upgrade you go to upgrade center on your desktop and type in the key. Then you have all the Ultimate features. Do you own Windows 7 Ultimate before you buy the key? No, you own a license to use Home Basic.
- Oh, that makes everything o.k. now. It's exactly the SAME dude. lol
To 2K, maybe next time just tell the truth? Sure there will still be angry customers, but there are always angry customers. It's better to tell the truth and endure the wrath of a few angry customers, rather than lie and have the truth come out on terms other than your own, and piss off all the customers.
- I 100% agree
As for me, will I buy the DLC? No, not for the reason that it was hidden and lied about, but because I have no interest in BioShock 2 multiplay.
Last edited by Mikewarrior; 03-13-2010 at 03:20 AM.
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