Besides Otto von Bismarck, who has already been confirmed, which iconic, prominent, or otherwise notable figures from German history would you like to see become the civilization’s leaders in the upcoming game?
Note: The choices were selected from suggestions on other threads.
Last edited by RideASpaceCowboy; 02-27-2010 at 07:30 AM.
I would like to see a post 3rd Reich chancelor. Helmut Kohl for example, who has been praised as the chancelor of the German reunion, or Willy Brandt, famous for his "Ostpolitik".
Let me guess, you're German. No one outside of Germany would consider either of these individuals as having anywhere near the level of influence and prominence the other leader mentioned.Originally Posted by lazor
where's the source for the confirmation?
I hope it's not the trailer, since Eleanor R. isn't much of a 'leader' but was also quoted.
I love the Civilization series. Absolutely love em. But one thing that annoys me is the lack of one of the most influential men in human history in the game. Adolf Hitler.
It's like the game developers are sticking their heads in the sand. Doesn't anyone else think this is just political correctness to the extreme??
They've put in Mao and Stalin, so why not Hitler?
My history teacher (in Holland) used to say he thought Mao was a much worse mass murderer in human history than Hitler ever was.
Don't get me wrong, Hitler is pure evil. But he belongs in a game like this - a game about human civilization and history. Maybe his traits would be Industrious, Agressive?
Tell me if you disagree or agree...
The simple fact of the matter is that Hitler is the most readily identifiable leader in German history. For most individuals around the world that have studied little to no German history, Hitler is likely the only German ruler they'd be able to name. Even among individuals familiar with subject, Hitler is likely still the first leader to come to mind.
Since he meets the criteria of being an iconic, prominent, or otherwise noteworthy political, military, or cultural leader, then the reason for his omission can only only be one of two things:
1) Potential censorship on the part of the German government.
If this is indeed the rationale, it is a poor one. The integrity of art, even in the form of a video game, should never be compromised for the political expediency of a regime that seeks to unjustly prohibit free speech in order to silence the realities of its own history.
2) The evils and atrocities of other despots are regarded as less sever.
Numerically speaking, no informed individual can argue that this is indeed the case, as Stalin and Mao are each responsible for exponentially more deaths than Hitler. But I would go further and say that the motivations and underlying philosophies of the Communist leaders were far darker visions than that of the Nazis even. Whereas the Third Reich strove for glory (albeit through utterly terrible means), the explicit goal of the Reds was the abolition of the individual and the end of all freedom and liberty.
I would love to see Hitler because for his influence on history alone. Though heres the issue you know when you contact hitler ingame he will have some horribly racist remark to greet you about his master race and whatnot.
Aside from him bismark, fredrick and willhem are all great choices. Also not so edgy.
No one? They were both great individuals with huge influence on modern Europe, they are well known in Europe, and if you do not know their inluence it is not the thing to be proud of. Helmut Kohl was great leader with huge contribution in integration of EU.
But my vote goes to… <fanfare> Otto III for his idea of Universal Empire.
Last edited by Archacus; 02-27-2010 at 06:48 PM.
Why is Kaiser Wilhelm II in here? All he was ever famous for was being the leader of Germany during World War I and fleeing afterwards when it was defeated, hardly a choice for a leader if you compare him to Frederick the Great.
Exactly. If people want Hitler, he should be included in a mod.
Last edited by Jinzor; 02-27-2010 at 06:34 PM.
You've hit it bang on the head. I think Adolf should be downloadable at the players discretion, that way moving all liability on too the player.
I wouldn't say Hitler was "one of the most influential men in human history". He did many evil things, but that makes him only recognisable. To me he just initiated the war together with Stalin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov...ibbentrop_Pact
and he lost the 'game'. Stalin was the guy who 'played' Hitler and that is the thing many poeple can't see up to now. Stalin planed and won the war he though very, very well over. Hitler is just one of the evil symbols of that war. However, to my personal opinion he was a bit more like a puppet.
Anyway, I would be glad to kick his ass in the gameand as the best civ to do so I would choose the Polish civ!
Last edited by pazdzioch; 02-27-2010 at 07:06 PM.
I will say it one more time, he wasn't even good leader he was one of the worst. He was terrible strategist guided mostly by ideology, ow come on! who in his right mind would start war on so many fronts? Good strategist must know that every plan can fail, you can’t start war if your plan is based on one word “blitzkrieg”. He easily could conquered the Poland and attack USSR, and no one would attack him, if you do not count the “attacks of leaflets”. Then after some time he could strike West Europe. BY HIS MISTAKES PEOPLE IN GERMANY SUFERED! Can’t you understand it? He had some economical successes at first but later he was responsible for FALL OF GERMANY, massive war on many fronts never pays off.
Let me guess, you're American. :P
I think you are letting your own political bias heavily influence your judgement here. I am sure both groups in this case could argue that there was "glory" in their goals...but in the case of the Third Reich, you are leaving out the very fundamental part of their ideology where human worth was based on a race, with the Aryans being the "master race", and the Jews and Romani being "sub-humans". It is certainly evil to kill people who oppose you. But killing people based on their race, is both evil and insane. As for the Third Reich's stance on freedom and liberty, it was a totalitarian state, where one should sacrifice oneself to the central leadership.
Your assessment of the "Reds", on the other hand, is too harsh, at least if you are judging them for their ideals. The fundamental goal of communism is to create "a free society, without class or racial divisions", with "common ownership of the means of production". Now, I'm not saying the existing communist states work this way...far from it. But from a purely ideological standpoint, communism is not evil at all. The "abolition of the individual and the end of all freedom and liberty" is pretty much the opposite of what the ideology is all about. They are, however, opposed to the idea of individual property. If you think this makes them more evil than the Nazis, I would say you are not thinking rationally about these things.
I get your point about all these leaders being complete bastards, though. I am guessing the reason Hitler is left out is that his leadership is still a sore point for both Germans and Jews. I guess if I was German, I might not like finding Hitler as one of the selectable leaders for my country. If I was Jewish, I might not like meeting people playing as Hitler. I don't know. But in any case, Germany is a country with a long history, and many great leaders to choose from. If Hitler's inclusion is a great affront to many people, I can do without him.
Kay
Even though Hitler never was a leader in the Civ-series, the german unique unit was still the Panzer. I always thought this was odd. Anyone else?
that's not odd. it's easy to abstract a piece of metal/technology from the people who used it.
Frederick the Great was a far more influential and important leader than Hitler, the man introduced the Potato to Germany!
lol I love how a man introducing the potato to Germany is now being valued as more historically important than a man who was a primary catalist too WW2. Epic win.
Well if you're going to take it seriously! He did far more than that, Frederick was far more of an influence on Germany, the fact is that the German people don't want to be represented by a man they hate more than the rest of the world does. Hitler wont be in the vanilla, but he may be in a WWII mod with the nation as "The Third Reich" instead of Germany.
Who is Frederick the Wise? Is he Frederick Barbarossa, the male German leader of Civ2? If he is this one, you should explain it in the poll, so that this option probably got more votes.
By the way, Helmut Kohl is a jackass who stole money and took kickbacks and bribes. He is currently under investigation and his longtime associate Karlheinz Schreiber is hiding out in Canada as he is wanted for fraud and corruption charges. Certainly not as bad as Hitler but not the type of leader you would want included considering his miniscule contribution to Germany history. His one claim to fame is botching badly the reunification of East and West Germany causing untold hardship for many on both sides of the 'curtain'.
Frederick III, Elector of Saxony, was Leo X's candidate for Holy Roman Emperor over Charles V. He was the chief defender of Martin Luther and is commemorated as a saint by some Lutheran churches.
A quick Wikipedia search would have answered your question.
All the votes in the world aren't going to make 2K adopt Hitler as a leader...i doubt public sites will even allow mods including Hitler (from a playable civ).
A quote from a contemporary of Hitler:
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place"
- Gandhi
Hitler wont be in, he is hated more in Germany than he is in the rest of the world for giving them such a bad reputation, would you want your nation represented by the biggest hate figure in your History? No.
Last edited by Pry87; 03-01-2010 at 10:25 AM.
thx. Exactly. I can think of numerous better leaders of my country than him, what ever someone may think he achieved I don't see it. Nothing he seemingly did good would have lasted so I don't see why it should be considered "good" by anyone.
I actually agree with Gandhi on this one completely: it is immoral on the part of the game creators to omit Hitler, regardless of the unpopularity of his inclusion, simply in order to appease those who seek to sugarcoat their history and silence the truth through censorship and intimidation.
Your missing the point.
Far more influential leaders in German history, and who would want their nation represented by Hitler.
The only way he will be included is if it's in a WWII mod, then in my opinion he should be included.
Who would want their nation represented by Stalin or Mao? I don't like the idea on my nation represented by FDR, but I'm not calling for 2K to omit him merely to appease me.
History is full of villains. And even when they're not as influential, those villains are often times more iconic and prominently known.
You should include Frederick I Barbarossa, the German male leader of CivII.
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