Idea: Electronic Warfare – A smarter way to fight

[Nerdfish]

With the removal of stacks and introduction of unit ranges, line of sight becomes more important. It might be interesting in late game to be able to manipulate lines of sight. This is the premise behind electronic warfare. It also introduces some elements from stratego.

Here are my preliminary ideas for Electronic warfare options based on my limited knowledge of Civ4. They are only meant to demonstrate the idea of E-War. I have no idea how air combat will be implemented, thus did not propose any idea for airborne ECM.

Electronic Warfare Promotions
ECM 1 – The Unit become invisible on enemy Radar
ECM 2 – The Unit is permanently shrouded in fog of war unless it attacks or is attacked.
ECCM – Require ECM2, The Unit peel back fog of war generated by electronic warfare or abilities.
Decoys – Require ECM2, This unit occupies adjacent Hexes with ghost copies of random units, unless these cells are already occupied. Decoys also show up on enemy radar. Unit attacking decoys loses a turn, missiles attacking decoys are lost.
Masking – Requires ECM2, This unit appear as another unit unless it’s in combat with another unit.

Electronic Warfare Units
Mobile Radar – Require Radio – A ground unit that locate units in fog of war, but do not reveal their type.
Mobile ECM – Require Radio, Stealth – Information age upgrade for the mobile radar. Hide nearby units from enemy radar. Start with ECM 2.
Forward Command – Require Radio, Computers – Information age upgrade for the mobile radar. Increase the interception chance of nearby units with intercept. Start with ECCM.

Electronic Warfare Buildings
Radar Station – Require Radio - Locate units in fog of war over tremendous distances – but do not reveal their type.
Signal Intelligence – Require Radio, Computers - Information age building. Further increase the city’s radar range, produce spy point.

[Edmundrw]

These are cool promotions. I'd like to see earlier units have proto versions of these abilities too tho - so Scouts should have the ability to peel back fog of war to a lesser extent. Camoflage also giving invisibility to a lesser extent

[mcniece_racing]

That's a great idea and it would allow great benefits for civs that are able to get that technology in game. I wonder though would it be a fair system for combat? and what bonuses would the units have over the enemy?

[Nerdfish]

Electronic warfare should not directly provide bonus for units in combat, however it should allow you to target units in fog of war, and prevent enemy units from doing the same.

In additional, electronic warfare may cause an enemy to attack a unit that isn't there (thus waste a turn or a missile) or walking straight into a counter-unit that they think isn't there.

There is a famous quote about all war is deception, I am just asking for Deception to be added to war in Civ.

[GroundedSausage]

This is actually one of the best ideas I have heard!

[Skunkone]

Im in as long as you add a EMP weapon there somewhere.

EMP- Requires Rocketry, Radio, Computers, and maybe fission
Disables all vehicals and stops all ECM unit abilities from working in strike area (idk 6-9hexs) for a small amount of time 1-3turns?

[Nerdfish]

Perhaps EMP missiles could be made into a special missile for missile units such as Missile Cruisers ?

[EnigmaCode]

I definitely believe that electronic warfare has a lot of potential. However, perhaps electronic warfare could increase the fog of war for your enemy/decrease the fog of war for you.

Here's the principle behind the idea. Today modern armies use a variety of electronic technology on the battlefield (radar, navigational systems, HUDs). Having an EMP attack could short-circuit these devices and limit the enemy's knowledge/view of the battlefield situation.

Just an idea for you all.

[Walderschmidt]

With the removal of stacks and introduction of unit ranges, line of sight becomes more important. It might be interesting in late game to be able to manipulate lines of sight. This is the premise behind electronic warfare. It also introduces some elements from stratego.

Here are my preliminary ideas for Electronic warfare options based on my limited knowledge of Civ4. They are only meant to demonstrate the idea of E-War. I have no idea how air combat will be implemented, thus did not propose any idea for airborne ECM.

Electronic Warfare Promotions
ECM 1 – The Unit become invisible on enemy Radar
ECM 2 – The Unit is permanently shrouded in fog of war unless it attacks or is attacked.
ECCM – Require ECM2, The Unit peel back fog of war generated by electronic warfare or abilities.
Decoys – Require ECM2, This unit occupies adjacent Hexes with ghost copies of random units, unless these cells are already occupied. Decoys also show up on enemy radar. Unit attacking decoys loses a turn, missiles attacking decoys are lost.
Masking – Requires ECM2, This unit appear as another unit unless it’s in combat with another unit.

Electronic Warfare Units
Mobile Radar – Require Radio – A ground unit that locate units in fog of war, but do not reveal their type.
Mobile ECM – Require Radio, Stealth – Information age upgrade for the mobile radar. Hide nearby units from enemy radar. Start with ECM 2.
Forward Command – Require Radio, Computers – Information age upgrade for the mobile radar. Increase the interception chance of nearby units with intercept. Start with ECCM.

Electronic Warfare Buildings
Radar Station – Require Radio - Locate units in fog of war over tremendous distances – but do not reveal their type.
Signal Intelligence – Require Radio, Computers - Information age building. Further increase the city’s radar range, produce spy point.

Great idea! Please post this on Civ Fanatic forums as well so this idea gets more exposure!

Wald

[Marthieu du Blois]

1) There's a Civ4 promotion called Sentry that gives +1 sight range.
2) EMP weapon is a must.
3) Scouts and specially trained (e.g. promoted) units can have Camouflage and similar promotions hiding them.
4) Loosely similar ideas (hiding, finding, promos) can be found in the Piracy, Sea Control thread.

[Zamburinha]

Among these propositions, I hope they give light-cavalry units more visual range, as a recon element.

[Marthieu du Blois]

Zamburinha

Check out the Caravans, Piracy, Sea control etc. thread for a recon mechanic to give light cavalry more range!
BtW, you can do it manually, even though that's a tedious task.

[creaney2]

EW is an interesting idea but it seems to be more of a tactical and low level sort of aspect. EW has the effect of including all kinds of intelligence to include SIGINT IMINT and COMINT. There is the targeting of radars, the search for the kind and direction of various emitters from HF VHF and other signals such used for radar direction finding and communications.

I think scouts are a good way to abstract this from spies to other intelligence assets both national and tactical. I am not sure how to set up a communications system then have layers of encryption than intercept and break those codes. One way would be to allow players to know actions of other players when they give movement or attack orders. It can be a system that units become more powerful tougher in the attack and have a defense bonus rather than doing the whole EW thing and all the aspects. One early version of EW was the use of the right sized chaff to throw off German radars in WWII.

[thefluffyrocker]

As they have mentioned the ability to 'hide' in forests then this idea isn't very far really from that idea and would only be a logical expansion of the concept.

[Akar]

No, this would get SO annoying

[KayTeEm]

Electronic Warfare really could be an interesting element for the late game ...

Building EW units should provide advantages in recon and battle but also should be defendable passively
(by getting special tech or building special buildings, ...) without excessive expense in order not to urge everyone
to rush for militaristic (instead of cultural or economic) supremacy, just to survive the game.

The description of the abilities you want EW to have just feels way overpowered to me.

[Atticus Lowa]

Electronic Warfare really could be an interesting element for the late game ...

Building EW units should provide advantages in recon and battle but also should be defendable passively
(by getting special tech or building special buildings, ...) without excessive expense in order not to urge everyone
to rush for militaristic (instead of cultural or economic) supremacy, just to survive the game.

The description of the abilities you want EW to have just feels way overpowered to me.

nice statement there Mr. Bismarck, in civ since its a game about world history from the dawn of civilization to to not-to-distant future, it would be neat to see tech periods represented with each periods military nuances.
but this is good for the modern+ eras

[Walderschmidt]

Yes. We could have basic electronic warfare until we hit the modern era, and then electronic warfare would be in full bloom!

That would add some zest to the modern era! Not only would you have to recruit the right soldiers to defend against and attack your enemy, but you'd have to use recon to see what they have and if they are in fact sallying forth against you!

Wald

[krooner]

To me, this sounds more like mod material.

A lot of my games don't even get to the modern era so this would be a huge new addition in content that would get minimal usage.

Even if you do play in the modern era a lot, this sounds like it adds a huge amount of complexity and micro-level movements that are not necessarily a fit for Civ. I would rather they focus on introducing mechanics that are utilized throughout the whole time line instead of just in the late/last eras of the game.

In a mod though, you could incorporate this to make some really cool WWIII or regional conflict games where you are spending the entire era in the modern techs and it's primarily a military strategy/conquest type mod.

[Atticus Lowa]

Yes. We could have basic electronic warfare until we hit the modern era, and then electronic warfare would be in full bloom!

That would add some zest to the modern era! Not only would you have to recruit the right soldiers to defend against and attack your enemy, but you'd have to use recon to see what they have and if they are in fact sallying forth against you!

Wald

its not electronic warfare if your not using electricity.
but this is the main point... War is Deception... messing and misinforming your enemy without losing critical resources is imperative to winning wars, it doesn't matter if your armies are better trained and equiped if your can't find the enemy they will find you and pick ur uber troops off one by one till its all gone.

[Atticus Lowa]

Yes. We could have basic electronic warfare until we hit the modern era, and then electronic warfare would be in full bloom!

That would add some zest to the modern era! Not only would you have to recruit the right soldiers to defend against and attack your enemy, but you'd have to use recon to see what they have and if they are in fact sallying forth against you!

Wald

its not electronic warfare if your not using electricity.
but this is the main point... War is Deception... messing and misinforming your enemy without losing critical resources is imperative to winning wars, it doesn't matter if your armies are better trained and equiped if your can't find the enemy they will find you and pick ur uber troops off one by one till its all gone.

PS: im talking about adding a simple military inteligence system, nothing really elaborate but something that makes a difference that all, make cavalry useful i guess.

[EnigmaCode]

its not electronic warfare if your not using electricity.
but this is the main point... War is Deception... messing and misinforming your enemy without losing critical resources is imperative to winning wars, it doesn't matter if your armies are better trained and equiped if your can't find the enemy they will find you and pick ur uber troops off one by one till its all gone.

PS: im talking about adding a simple military inteligence system, nothing really elaborate but something that makes a difference that all, make cavalry useful i guess.

That would be an interesting idea to implement. The idea of intelligence/counter-intelligence is nearly as old as war itself.

There is a famous quote: "The first casualty of war is truth." Its disputed who said that, but it is true.

Electronic warfare can pertain to a lot of things (radar, nuclear bombs - they fry electronic equipment, and today's EMPs) and therefore should assume different roles in Civ. Whether it be offense, defense, intelligence, or counter-intelligence - electronic warfare will certainly play a greater role in modern warfare in the coming years.

[Atticus Lowa]

That would be an interesting idea to implement. The idea of intelligence/counter-intelligence is nearly as old as war itself.

There is a famous quote: "The first casualty of war is truth." Its disputed who said that, but it is true.

Electronic warfare can pertain to a lot of things (radar, nuclear bombs - they fry electronic equipment, and today's EMPs) and therefore should assume different roles in Civ. Whether it be offense, defense, intelligence, or counter-intelligence - electronic warfare will certainly play a greater role in modern warfare in the coming years.

speaking of electro wars, your name itself suggests your interest
good ol German Compucomps!

well one IDEA would be to build EMP missiles that disable electrical equipment for one turn, ASSUMING its not shielded, maybe you could shut down someone's or a portion of nuclear aresenal? you could knock down modern armor, it could be one way a small somewhat primitve nation fights back a larger more advanced nation. the fact that stacks are= X_X is going to make fighting back montezuma worthwile! before you were basically screwed if the guy had 10-1 agansit you, even if you were much more advanced.

[EnigmaCode]

speaking of electro wars, your name itself suggests your interest
good ol German Compucomps!

Lol about that.

But in all seriousness, when does electronic warfare get implemented? Perhaps 40s? 60s? 90s? What do you all think?

[Walderschmidt]

its not electronic warfare if your not using electricity.
but this is the main point... War is Deception... messing and misinforming your enemy without losing critical resources is imperative to winning wars, it doesn't matter if your armies are better trained and equiped if your can't find the enemy they will find you and pick ur uber troops off one by one till its all gone.

PS: im talking about adding a simple military inteligence system, nothing really elaborate but something that makes a difference that all, make cavalry useful i guess.

I'm all for for fog of war and deception. Something like R.I.S.K. would be awesome!

I am just sceptical of how many people (let alone the devs) would accept it.

Wald

[Atticus Lowa]

I'm all for for fog of war and deception. Something like R.I.S.K. would be awesome!

I am just sceptical of how many people (let alone the devs) would accept it.

Wald

anyone who wants a game that doesn't have SOME miltiary realism would love modern warfare 2 .

people who hate realism and reload games because they couldn't finish a world wonder before someone else, are the reason the PC gaming industry is weak today.
Well, it doesn't matter anyways, if 2k doesn't do it the gaming community will,
better for 2k do it and make it more efficent and balanced.

[Nerdfish]

I would like to make a small clarification about Radar.
Radars are different from vision in that it informs the player that a unit exist, and inform the player of its movement, but it does not identify the unit. If a unit is within the radar range, the radar's owner should be able to see a icon in the fog of war. Artilleries (inc. naval guns/ships) and Missiles fire at units on the radar.
Of course, to be meaningful, radars have a lot more range then vision.

I'd love to see modern units with a large radar radius but relatively small vision. This is also realistic as a modern man doesn't see much further then a renaissance man with a telescope. Modern warfare, with exception of infantry combat (and maybe close-range armor/gunship engagements), has been fought on radar

Electronic Warfare, of course, wreck all sort of havoc on enemy radars.
As for the Definition of Electronic Warfare in Civ, I agree that it could be expanded to include any form of in game deception.

[creaney2]

I know about about electronic warfare having engage in it and it is really too marginal or detailed for an operational level game. It has to do with tactical placement of emitters of communications equipment and radars. It can be codes and code breakers but choosing radar seeking missiles would be too low level. If anything it can be an abstraction that adds to the defense or attack of some units.