New civilization

[asioasioasio]

Dear Creators of the Game, Dear Forum Members.

Civilization IV is the best game I've ever played, countless hours I've spent playing (I love especially changes that brings BTS expansion) and modding (very popular World War II 1939 Mod for BTS and Warlords, Polish Empire Mod for BTS, dozens of models of units and buildings that can be found on civfanatics), say everything. Civilization IV is great jewel, and looking at the screenshots of Civilization V, I know it'll be another diamond. I've missed very much my country in Civ4, and I beg you to add it in civ5. I know it's probably too late to add it in vanilla version, but please remember about adding this country in one of the next expansions. It's really worthy of adding, because:

- Poland is dynamically growing gaming market. Our wages rise, we buy more and more games every year, and there's more than 40 mln Poles around the world - a real worthy target. We're actually green island on red sea of crisis - so our economy is growing rather than shrinking. Currently 18th place on world map of the biggest economies (GDP). We did really huge leap from planned economy to market economy in last 20 years.

- Poland has big civ community - two major sites/forums with my favoured civ.org.pl where I have a lot of friends. We're modding (couple of people including me) which added much to the standard civgame content and created good mods.

- Polish civilization is in almost every mod that extends gameplay, even if it adds only few new nations and leaders). All major mods except, Fall from Heaven (Poland and fantasy mod, naaah... that wouldn't work ), Rhye's Mod (where Europe on the map is so small that adding Poland would be a nonsense) , and History of Three Kingdoms (which is about Chinese medieval ) has Polish Empire inside. That shows perfectly what else modders and fans wants to see!

Polish Empire Mod for BTS was released along the translation, on additional second disk in Polish distribution of Civiliation IV Complete, issued by Cenega Poland (Polish distributor of game). They saw what market wants!

- It was always major nation in Central Europe and the game lacks Central European civ. Our history that starts really in X c. (after adopting Christianity, by major tribes united by ancestors of Mieszko I, and few year laters after birth of Kingdom of Poland). And history is really rich - our place on the map made this region real playground. Countless wars with our neighbours: Germany, Prussian Tribes, Teutonic Knights (famous battle of Tannenberg/Grunwald in 1410), East Slavic countries (especially Russians), Mongols , Turks, Swedes, Danes, Czechs, Austrians. We have one of the first democracies in the Medieval and Renaissance Europe, second in the world Constitution (after American).

- We'd formed empire in XVI and XVII c. merging with Lithuania into Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which was one of the few most important countries in Europe (and the biggest and most powerful empire in Central and East Europe). Powerful winged hussar unit led by king Sobieski stopped Turkish invasion to Europe, saving Vienna from becoming a part of Muslim country.

- Many years of wars with our neighbours made our country weak in XVIII c. and we were divided into growing empires of Prussia Austria and Russia. More than hundred years didn't erase Poland - we did a couple of uprisings, cared for our culture and language and succesfully we became independent country again in 1918, but it wasn't a peaceful time - the Bolsheviks were advancing.

- It was Poland who stopped Bolsheviks in 1920 in great victory which saved Europe from communism after WWI.

- Poland was fifth major allies power in WWII, fighting alone in 1939 with Nazi Germany and treacherous Soviet Union. After collapse we fought on all European fronts - Norway (Narvik), France (First defence of France, later Falaise where Polish Armoured Forces were cork in the bottle which captured German divisions, Battle of Britain (famous air divisions), North Africa (Tobruk), Italy (capturing Monte Cassino - this victory opened doors to Rome), Netherlands, East Front hand to hand with Soviet Union (Lenino, Bagram, Berlin, etc....). It was Warsaw which saw two uprisings during World War II. First made by Jews to protect against Nazi Germany opression, and year later by Polish Resistance which wanted to throw away German from Warsaw and to show Stalin that we want free and independent country. But world forget once again and we became Stalin's trophy in Potsdam.

- After 50 years we've started the chain reaction - first making Free Labour Union "Solidarność", and later first free elections to parliament in Central and East Europe and collapse of communist government , which of course later bringed freedom in Hungary, Germany (and collapse of wall), Czech Republic, Romania, collapse of Soviet Union. And after these 20 years we're again strong country with strong economy, and a active member of NATO and EU.

Please, creators of this game, remember about our country. It isn't really big problem to add couple more countries in expansions (and I know what I say because I mod a lot), and it will bring happines to many fans of Civ games from all countries. I really would love to see Poland and couple other countries (especially from our forgotten Central European region)

With all the respect
Loyal fan of Civilization asioasioasio from civ.org.pl and civfanatics.com
But I think many Poles and many foreign friends from civfanatcics.com would also could undersign this letter.

P.S. Sorry for my bad English It's really hard to made such a long letter in language wich you very rarely use.

P. S. 2 Forum members of civilization.org.pl prepared petition to add Poland - please take a moment to sign your support also there:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/224875277

P. S. 3 If you have acoount on Facebook please support us also there. We setup fanpage there.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Poland...?v=wall&ref=mf

[lugaru]

Poland would have worked in Fall from Heaven, some Poland mods made those Winged Hussars into fantasy units with ungodly stats. Still I agree, although worse comes to worse if they are not in the release they will be in the first Mod.

[Procylon]

If we had more than 18 civilizations I might support your petition...

But since they have chosen to have so few, they have to balance it between important ancient civs and the modern civs that became huge.

Too few slots and too many civilizations to choose from.

[Caviez]

Yeah Poland should be one of the nations, if not in standard version, than in next expansion.

[asioasioasio]

Yeah I know it's probably to late to raise the number of civs in vanilla - and i really don't believe we can be in those 18 nations in civ, because of the disappointment after not seeing Poland in last of expansions to the game. And of course there's to much nations to choose from as you said. But adding few more countries in expansion (iirc Warlords added four countries, why not add more?, like in BTS (where there was iirc 10, but some were necesserly doubled tough - like HRE (Germany), I would realy like to see Austria, Hungary or of course Poland instead, Babilon and Sumeria - it could be really one country in game and could create place for other ancient civilization - for example Jewish.). That would create space for couple of other new and interesting nations.

[JefA]

Yes Poland was a Major player thru central Europe for centuries.

Unfortunatly thats unlikely to make it a=one of the 18.

However if they look at the Cukltural Revolution Matrix thats been proposed on other threads it could be a development of earlier civilization to Medeavil

[LDeska]

Great idea in my opinion

I think that adding Poland to Civ5 (maybe in first add-on?) would be a vry wise choice because:
- Poland (or rather Plish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) was a major player in Europe. At it's height it had biggest land army in Europe
- Poland has very long continuos history of statehood - over 1000 years
- it has a very good unique unit - heavy cavalry (husaria) which fit well into civ4 as a curaissier
So it has history (all the points mentioned by asio3x), it had potential of empire (several hundreds years ago), it has achievements in science, culture and military aspects of civilization - I'll copy/paste here list of Great People I proposed in petition:
Scientists:
Mikołaj Kopernik (astronomer)
Maria Skłodowska-Curie (chemist, twice Nobel Prize winner 1903, 1911)
Stefan Banach (mathematician)
Alfred Tarski (mathematician)
Marian Rejewski (mathematician)
Ludwik Zamenhof (doctor, esperanto creator)
Aleksander Wolszczan (astronomer)
Artists:
Fryderyk Chopin (composer)
Adam Mickiewicz (writer)
Juliusz Słowacki (writer)
Henryk Sienkiewicz (writer, Noble Prize - Literature 1905)
Stanisław Moniuszko (composer)
Witold Lutosławski (composer)
Władysław Reymont (writer, Noble Prize - Literature 1924)
Ignacy Paderewski (composer)
Artur Rubinstein (musician)
Czesław Miłosz (poet, Nobel Prize - Literature 1980)
Wisława Szymborska (poet, Nobel Prize - Literature 1996)
Andrzej Wajda (director)
Roman Polański (director)
Stanisław Lem (science fiction writer)
Warlords:
Tadeusz Kościuszko (Thaddeus Kosciusko) general
Kazimierz Puławski (Casimir Pulaski) general (both were Polish and American generals)
Józef Bem (general)
Władysław Anders (general)
Lech Wałęsa (Solidarity leader, Nobel Prize - Peace 1983)
Prophets:
Saint Jadwiga - (Queen of Poland)
Karol Wojtyła (Pope John Paul II)
Stefan Wyszyński (cardinal, primate during communism)
Merchants:
Eugeniusz Kwiatkowski (economist)
Władysław Grabski (economist)
Leszek Balcerowicz (economist)
Engineers:
Hipolit Cegielski (19th century manufacturer)
Gabriel Słoński (16th century architect)


The idea of adding Poland has also economy justification - Polish economy grows very fast for last twenty years, our GDP is over 50% of average one in European Union. If we multiply it by population (Poland 40mlns) it will show up that our overall GDP (with use of purchasing power parity) is higher that the one of Netherlands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...es_by_GDP_(PPP) There are also numerous Poles that live abroad - especially in USA, UK and Ireland and a lot of their descendants who would happily buy add-on with Polish civ.

All together - it seems to be a very good choice, am I right, dear Firaxis and 2K

[slowtarget]

I know its seems like it would be easy to say this from the US, but I find it difficult to argue for the inclusion of Poland in the immediate future. I honestly feel the best argument is the strong following the game has in Poland.

I mean absolutely no disrespect toward Poland or its history. It is simply that my studies of history have shown that very few places in the world are unimportant. When I think of the civilizations I expect to see in Civ, I think of the most influential and distict civilizations.

Was Poland's empire more impressive than the Algonquian nation? Did they weild more influence than the Dutch? Are they so much more distinct from Russia and Germany than the Khmer are from China and India? Did they have more impact on history than the Sumerians or Assyrians? Did they accomplish more than the Polynesians?

These same questions can be leveled at a number of prospective civilizations (see also: Canada, Israel). It's not that Poland is unimportant or unimpressive, but that history is filled with so many important and impressive civilizations. For me, I think one of the strongest arguments against it is simply that Europe already has so many civilizations included. Though I know that Polish culture and history is distinct from Russia and Germany, I feel that those two civilizations do an acceptable job of representing Eastern Europe from a historical perspective. Many countries in Europe can collect lists of artists and scientists. If that was all that was required, then we would have to consider countries like Denmark, Switzerland and Sweden as well.

And before you think that I'm being hypocritical: I do have some reservations against including the US as a civilization. Yes, it has a large "empire" and its influence is unprecedented in history, but it is "new", an offshoot of another very powerful empire. I accept its inclusion as a borderline case. If nothing else, I accept it in the same way that I accept the inclusion of "Hunt Valley" as one of the great US cities.

[Lord Blade]

There's a TON of civs that should be added to the game.
It's a little disappointing that we're only getting 18.
We can only hope they add another 20+ through expansions.

[Caviez]

Poland is very good nations in Civ IV! Husaria is one the best units of the game!

[Francesco82]

There's a TON of civs that should be added to the game.
It's a little disappointing that we're only getting 18.
We can only hope they add another 20+ through expansions.

I think 18 is just fine, CIV IV had 18 at release.

Anyway.. what's the point of having 30+ civilizations when what you get for each of them is just a leaderhead, a building and a unit.
It's better to focus on fewer civs but give them a more unique feeling.

[mitrydates]

With all the respect Loyal fan of Civilization asioasioasio from civ.org.pl and civfanatics.com But I think many Poles and many foreign friends from civfanatcics.com would also could sign under this letters.

I simply love you.

Was Poland's empire more impressive than the Algonquian nation? Did they weild more influence than the Dutch? Are they so much more distinct from Russia and Germany than the Khmer are from China and India? Did they have more impact on history than the Sumerians or Assyrians? Did they accomplish more than the Polynesians?

Please, don't be ridiculous. I don't want to call you ignorant, but some of these questions show you don't know much of history of Europe, do you?

I wouldn't say Poland had bigger impact on world history than Sumer or Netherlands, but Assyria or Mittani - probably yes. Look at the list of Polish inventors, generals and other great people. Look at the extent of Poland-Lithuania in XV-XVIII century, its military and economy. Does it give you a picture?

And if it's not enough, read at least some wiki entries about Copernicus, Tadeusz Kosciuszko (you say you're American!), Maria Sklodowska-Curie, Lech Walesa. If there was no Battle of Warsaw of 1920 you would greet the commies in Paris. If Poland didn't say "no" to Hitler in 1939 how many more people, notably Jews, would die? And if Poland was so unimportant why it took two - not just one - great powers (nazi Germany and USSR signing the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact) to take it out?

I would love to answer all of your questions but I will let you read something on history of Poland before I start the discussion with you. In Poland at school we learn some history of US and other important powers of the world, not to mention our neighbours. Bad thing you don't do it in America.

Best regards,

Mitrydates

[LDeska]

I wonder is it stated somewhere that we'll get only 18 civs? I haven't spotted that information when I read about civ5...

[pazdzioch]

Was Poland's empire more impressive than the Algonquian nation? Did they weild more influence than the Dutch? Are they so much more distinct from Russia and Germany than the Khmer are from China and India? Did they have more impact on history than the Sumerians or Assyrians? Did they accomplish more than the Polynesians?

Can You imagine the European history after the fall of Vienna - the capital city of Austrians? In the year 1683 Poland stoped the ex☺☺☺☺☺ion of Ottoman empire in europe. That was certainly a turning point in european history! ...and Ottoman empire was included in the last Civilization game...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna
Polish husars was a major force during that battle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Hussars

Can You imagine the European history after a lost war with Bolsheviks in 1920? That was another truning point in european and world history. Comunism would spread on whole of Europe...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterma...ish-Soviet_War

Have You heard of the "Polish Breaktrough in Cryptanalysis of the Enigma"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptan...h_breakthrough
That is another breaktrough for world war 2 this time! The work of polish mathematicians allowed for many victories - all captured german reports were decoded. Isn't it significant?

How about Ignacy Łukasiewicz? He build the first Oil refinery in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacy_%C5%81ukasiewicz
Mmmmm, fossil fuels... By the way - I would put him on the list of great people

There is at least one 'wonderful' place in Poland as well. The former salt mine "Wieliczka". It's a really unique place!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine

Another 'wonderful' (but lost) construction, was the Amber Room
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83hwEc7B9CI
Something very uniqe as well

I will search for more in the near future if You like

To learn a bit more abut significance of Polish nation and history I advice You to watch the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83hwEc7B9CI

At the end I wish to say that in my opinion Poland should be on the list of civilizations not because it is a " 40 mil. market" to sell the game, but because it is great and decent country with a long tradition of freedom and democracy

[BorekPL]

Was Poland's empire more impressive than the Algonquian nation? Did they weild more influence than the Dutch? Are they so much more distinct from Russia and Germany than the Khmer are from China and India? Did they have more impact on history than the Sumerians or Assyrians? Did they accomplish more than the Polynesians?

Well,
Copernicus stopped the Sun and moved the Earth, try to beat that one

[asioasioasio]

Hello
Thank you for all your answers, opinions and support.

@Thx LDeska for that list - it's good example that we had some impact on worlds culture, science, etc.
Those 18 civilizations is mentioned in one of the thread here on 2K Games forum. Indeed it isn't much to make space for an extra civ. But if we could be added in expansion that would be great!

@slowtarget.

That's true that only few parts of Earth weren't important during the mankind's timeline. But Sid and other creators of this games choosed specific key to choose the nations:

1. "Nation should be strong and have big impact on history (or at least economy and culture) of the region, preferably it should be an empire, even former

2. They should represent whole world - like in soccer - you could put 24 teams from Europe, 6 from South America, Mexico and one representant of Africa, to reflect the real strenght of teams. But it'll collapse the idea of worlds championships, and made it less interesting experience. So it's why we have in civ Aztecs (conquered by 1 500 Spainish soldiers), Khmers, Ethiopia, Mali even if theire power didn't matched the power of medium size european duchy at that time. The game would lost much fun without them and truly i can't imagine game without for example nut and agressive Montezuma , and Zara Yaqub is my favoured leader to play.

3. It have to be civilization - so they should develop writing - it's why we never had Aborygenes, Polynesians, Innuits etc - tough it would be fun also to see them too.

Poland matches all three criterias

Ad. 1 It formed empire in XVI, XVII c. Not many people (even in Poland) knows that we put false heir to the throne in Russia, captured Moscow and ruled it for couple of years (it finished with uprising - we we're bad boys ). Something that was only done before by Mongols, and weren't done again by Napoleon or Hitler. Napoleon just entered burned Moscow and had to retreat soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles
Not many people knows that Prussia wich formed three centuries later Germany were polish Vasal state - aftermath of the the Polish-Teutonic Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Homage
So looking from that perspective, where are Germany and Russia, there could be also Poland. All three formed empires and have great impact on history.

Ad.2 West Europe is very cluttered - Portugal, Spain, France, England, Germany (Our neighbours, but they are West European country), Netherlands, Rome, Celts, Vikings, HRE. From Central and East Europe there's only Russia.

Ad.3 We could write. Three nobles in Literature confirms my words

I agree that Sweden should be represented. But still all Scandinavian nations could have fun playing Vikings. Poles have nothing wich could form substitute to play (no natives, no ancient civilizations, etc.). Netherland (for theire impact on economy and colonization so theire place in civ is understood) and Sumerian (for creating one of first civilizations) were already represented in civ4. And I (and probably most of players) could live without Sumerian having already Babilon in game.
Algonquian are already stickied to Native Americans and Polynesians didn't formed civilization.

Thank you for your opinion, tough i don't agree with all your arguments

@ LordBlade. Yeah 20+ nations in expansions would solve problems of many fans from many countries, ot only Poland

Well,
Copernicus stopped the Sun and moved the Earth, try to beat that one

Lol

[Iosif S.]

silly Poland, you will be in the game as a part of the glorious Russia.

[slowtarget]

I never said that Poland didn't have a rich and influential history. I simply pointed out that many cultures have a rich and influential history and that, when viewed in the context of all of history, Poland's role is no greater than dozens of other cultures.

People are allowed to have their own opinions on this, and in many cases, those opinions are caused by differing ideas about what values make a civilization important.

You can make claims like "Without Poland all of Europe would have become communist in the 1920s", but in the end, this is just wild speculation. It no more realistic than the people who claim that without the US's help, Britain would be speaking German right now. It's safe to say that Poland stopped the Soviet's plans to take control of central Europe, but anything more is speculative fiction. And considering that the Soviets still took control of central Europe, its hard to argue that this war had more of an impact on the course of world history than dozens of other wars and battles. Does influencing history for 30 years earn you a spot next to Carthage, which controlled the western Mediterranean for over 600 years?

And sure, Copernicus figured out the correct model for our solar system and is credited for triggering the Scientific Revolution, but does that show the greatness of Poland, or of Copernicus? It wasn't as if Poland had a national program to further astronomy. Copernicus stood on the shoulders of other astronomers, of which the vast majority were not Polish. Now, that doesn't mean that Poland or the Polish people should not be proud of their countryman. Just that the accomplishments of one man don't make a culture historically significant. The Wright brothers built the first self-powered aircraft. Is that a reason why the US is historically important? No. The US didn't do anything to help the Wright brothers.

This is why I said that I'm not convinced by lists of famous people or important events. Every country in Europe has them (standard exceptions apply: Monaco, Liechtenstein, Andorra, San Marino). Instead of basing your arguments on cherry-picked best-cases, show the strength of the culture by what the average person accomplished, the contributions made to the world by long term efforts backed by the populous, and the power and influence they exerted over the world when they weren't fighting to increase it.

Even "weaker" civilizations like the Aztecs, the Khmer, the Dutch, and even the Assyrians projected influence far beyond their borders for hundreds of years. Even after adjusting for modern historical "compression" factors, the Polish civilization doesn't really stand out. Would I argue that Mali or Hungary had more influence than Poland? No, I don't think so.

Again, my point is not to say that Poland hasn't accomplished anything noteworthy or produced any interesting people. I am simply trying to put the question in perspective. Though Poland has a rich history with many respectable accomplishments, I couldn't honestly say that there weren't 18 cultures which had accomplished more. Realistically, I don't think I could say that Poland would even be in the top 24 (about right for the first or second rounds of expansion). I think I would start to be convinced at about 30 civs.

Again, this is not an attempt to belittle Poland. To be fair, I believe when I was trying to rank the civilizations in order of how much they deserve to be in CivIV, I put the US at #14, which is about 13 places back from most of my countrymen.

[schroedess26]

If we put Poland in who would we leave out? Give me a list of the top 30+ Civilizations in your mind. Its alright if you disagree but I want to know who you think is less important than Poland in the base package of civs in the last version of the game.

[outofspace]

It's quite strange for me that, Poland it's not in it.
one of the greatest countries centuries ago, and one of the strongest if we look 50 years to the future.

[casualciv]

There is plenty of enthusiasm expressed for including Poland and also for other civs. Sadly, not everybody can be accommodated. But I suspect that Civ V will be very much mod-friendly. Surely there are are accomplished modders who are citizens of Poland. They will have every opportunity to add their civ, even before the expansion packs arrive. The list of Poland's exceptional people shown in this thread will certainly serve the basis for Leaders, Unique Buildings, and Unique Units. So mod away!

(BTW, I'd like to see Wanda Landowska as a Great Artist.)

[schroedess26]

It's quite strange for me that, Poland it's not in it.
one of the greatest countries centuries ago, and one of the strongest if we look 50 years to the future.

Well list your countries in order for Civ then... Who are you going to leave out?

[Volt.civ.org.pl]

If we had more than 18 civilizations I might support your petition...

But since they have chosen to have so few, they have to balance it between important ancient civs and the modern civs that became huge.

Too few slots and too many civilizations to choose from.

Excuse me, but do you really THINK Zulu "civilization" had bigger impact on developing science and culture than Poland ?

With all due respect for Your achievements Sir, THE ONLY Zulu "contribution" to development of humanity was their battles won against British Imperial Army.


Cite from Wikipedia :
"The Zulu (Zulu: amaZulu) are the largest South African ethnic group of an estimated 10–11 million people who live mainly in the province of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa."
To compare - Poland has OVER 35 mln citizens - almost half of witch has highier educational degree...

And further:
"On December 11, 1878, agents of the British delivered an ultimatum to 11 chiefs representing Cetshwayo. The terms forced upon Cetshwayo required him to disband his army and accept British authority. Cetshwayo refused, and war followed at the start of 1879. During the war, the Zulus defeated the British at the Battle of Isandlwana on January 22. The British managed to get the upper hand after the battle at Rorke's Drift, and win the war with the Zulu defeat at the Battle of Ulundi on July 4."

And You want to compare ONE war against British korps against over 1500 years of polish history of struggle and victories -like those stopping Mongols undr Legnica and then Turks under Vienna from conquering rest of Europe, Battle under Grunwald against Teutonic Knights and the best knights from all over Europe - THE BIGGEST BATTLE OF IT'S TIME? Countless battles and wars against WHOLE German Holy Roman Empire and Russia military hordes ?

What about cultural and scientific achievements mentioned in one of previous posts ?
What about military genius of Kosciuszko - who established West Point ?
How to compare Etiopia or zulu's "contributions" with just that few examples ?
Regardless, how many do You think Zulu is playing Civilization ? Or Ethiopians ? In Poland it is still - from it's premiere on Commodore Amiga one of most popular strategy games, and most loved. Please write Cenega - distributor of Cvilization on polish market with question how many copies of the game they have sold - it wont be close number, because of piracy and some of the people obtaining english version of the game...

With Best regards

Volt

[Wild_Bandit]

Poland is very interesting nation. Please remember about add this country in next expansion.

[Wild_Bandit]

Poland is very interesting nation. Please remember about add this country in next expansion. sorry double post

[asioasioasio]

I agree that's there are easy to find 18 civs that would find place in game instead of Poland. And i don't think it'll appear in vanilla version - it's rather to late, since we can look on first screenshots from the game. But imo it's worthy and interesting to find place in 30 nations. (Possibly second expansion - believe me that would make also polish players very happy).

My list would see like this (it's list from the brain not from the hearth - so I made it as much objectively as possible and trying to think how creators could choose nations) - order less or more randomly

Vanilla - 18 civs
Rome, Greece, Babilon, Egypt, Great Britain (or England), France, Germany, Spain, Russia, China, India, Japan, Aztec, Inca, America, Arabia, Ottoman Empire, Mongols

1st expansion - 8 civs
Poland, Vikings, Mali, Maya, Portugal, Persia, Netherlands, Carthagine

2nd expansion - 10 civs
Zulu, Khmer, Judea, Korea, Algonquian, Polynesia, Aborigenes, Innuits, Austria, Celts

So from the current list of civs will dissapear:
Native Americans (changed to Algonquian)
HRE (changed to Austria)
Ethiopia
Sumeria (There's Babilon wich works well imo for Middle East civ from Tiger/Eufrat territiry)

[mitrydates]

silly Poland, you will be in the game as a part of the glorious Russia.

Screw you, mad Iosif. You can't beat Polish pope

[MrmAngeluS]

I'd vote for eventually adding almost every civ in the game
While I vote for Poland, I'd like to see Croatia as a civ also, since I'm a Croat and big bunch of Croats play the game, some even renaming their empires and cities as Croatian ones.
While we're not such a big nation, we have history that goes all the way from Greece.

Greek colonies, Iliric, Celtic, Goth and Roman, until the Croats settled here in 7th century. We have been in many alliances, we've been attacked numerous times but various nations, but we fought our way out despite our numerical and military inferiority. A brave nation that exists over 13 centuries.

We defeated the Turks first in Europe, stopping them to conquer the continent, we fought off the Austro-Hungarian kingdom, and in the last war, we fought against Serbia, at that time 5th most powerful force in the world, using only hunting knives and hunting guns, gaining indepence after the war (if any Serbs read this, I don't blame you or us for anything, what happened, happened).
Besides, the partisan movement started in Croatia so we also have our special army unit - "First Yugoslav Partisan unit (and first anti-fascist military unit in occupied Europe) was established in Brezovica forest, near Sisak, Croatia on June 22, 1941, the day Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union. " (Wikipedia, Yugoslav Partisans)
Other units from other parts of history are - the Knight of Sinj, Uskoks, Degman Battle Tank...

But still, even tho I'm from implementing both Croatia and Poland, I'd rather go for Slavic People group. We're all Slavic with similiar cultures and languages. Mixing Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Serbia, Croatia, etc. into one group would be great imo.

[Volt.civ.org.pl]

I never said that Poland didn't have a rich and influential history. I simply pointed out that many cultures have a rich and influential history and that, when viewed in the context of all of history, Poland's role is no greater than dozens of other cultures.

(...)

And sure, Copernicus figured out the correct model for our solar system and is credited for triggering the Scientific Revolution, but does that show the greatness of Poland, or of Copernicus? It wasn't as if Poland had a national program to further astronomy. Copernicus stood on the shoulders of other astronomers, of which the vast majority were not Polish. Now, that doesn't mean that Poland or the Polish people should not be proud of their countryman. Just that the accomplishments of one man don't make a culture historically significant. The Wright brothers built the first self-powered aircraft. Is that a reason why the US is historically important? No. The US didn't do anything to help the Wright brothers."

Copernicus was also na alumni of Jagiellonian University: (again from Wikipedia:

"The Jagiellonian University (Polish: Uniwersytet Jagielloński, often shortened to UJ; historical names: Latin: Studium Generale, Kraków Academy, The Main Crown School, Main School of Kraków, Kraków University) was established in 1364 by Casimir III the Great in Kraków. It is the oldest institution of higher education in Poland, the second oldest university in Eastern Europe and one of the oldest universities in Europe."

How many universitites Mali had at a time ? Or United States or Canada ?
Or even Babylon Ethiopia Zulu Maya combined togheter ?

I wont discuss with You your "opinions" on history of Europe, as You have shown complete ignorance in the knowledge on that subject and complete missundurstanding of so called "historical process" - wich is significantly much more complicated than just sum of few facts taken out of context.

This is why I said that I'm not convinced by lists of famous people or important events. Every country in Europe has them (standard exceptions apply: Monaco, Liechtenstein, Andorra, San Marino). Instead of basing your arguments on cherry-picked best-cases, show the strength of the culture by what the average person accomplished, the contributions made to the world by long term efforts backed by the populous, and the power and influence they exerted over the world when they weren't fighting to increase it.

You chosen to disregard polish achievements on European field - try and You will find MANY traits in New World - USA, Bolivia, Brazil, Mexico, Cuba etc.
Son of Helena Modrzejewska was an engineer who developed first and longest at a time suspension Bridge - between Brooklyn and Staten Island, later named Verazzano Bridge. How many polish engineers were in Apollo program ? Doestn't USA have BETTER brains and technical colleges LOL

Even "weaker" civilizations like the Aztecs, the Khmer, the Dutch, and even the Assyrians projected influence far beyond their borders for hundreds of years. Even after adjusting for modern historical "compression" factors, the Polish civilization doesn't really stand out. Would I argue that Mali or Hungary had more influence than Poland? No, I don't think so.

Again how many Malinese You know working for IBM ? Or Khmers ?

Again, my point is not to say that Poland hasn't accomplished anything noteworthy or produced any interesting people. I am simply trying to put the question in perspective. Though Poland has a rich history with many respectable accomplishments, I couldn't honestly say that there weren't 18 cultures which had accomplished more. Realistically, I don't think I could say that Poland would even be in the top 24 (about right for the first or second rounds of expansion). I think I would start to be convinced at about 30 civs.

Again, this is not an attempt to belittle Poland. To be fair, I believe when I was trying to rank the civilizations in order of how much they deserve to be in CivIV, I put the US at #14, which is about 13 places back from most of my countrymen.

Bull sh...

My best

Volt

P.S. Please READ with understaning some books on a subject BEFORE You present such "oppinions" on public forum
Nothing bothers me more than stupidity and ignorance...

And US with it's 200 years of history and mostly stolen from other nations science dosent deserve to be in first 40 even...

[mitrydates]

Even "weaker" civilizations like the Aztecs, the Khmer, the Dutch, and even the Assyrians projected influence far beyond their borders for hundreds of years. Even after adjusting for modern historical "compression" factors, the Polish civilization doesn't really stand out. Would I argue that Mali or Hungary had more influence than Poland? No, I don't think so.

Once again you prove you don't know what you're talking about. Polish language was "French of the East". Between XV-XVII centuries it was used by much of the nobility of Lithuania, Russia, Muscovy, Ukraine and some parts of Novgorod. Also the language was sometimes used in diplomacy with Ottomans and Golden Horde.

Tell me, why the Jews and Protestants made their way to Poland after being prosecuted in the West (Spain, France and Holy Roman Empire, notably Bohemia)? Most historians say it was a safe haven for free thought and tolerance as far as I remember.

One thing worth to mention: first Polish university was found in 1364 in Cracow. That's exactly 302 years before Harvard and 276 years after Bolonia.

Polish cities preceded the Russian towns (in legal sense, ie. burgher laws) for about 400 years.

And if you will ever travel to the countries to the east of Poland you will see that still there remain thousands buildings to witness Polish influence on the region (castles, churches, palaces, monasteries, etc.). It were not the Russians who built it, it were the Russians (and Soviets) who tried to destroy it!

Still you didn't answer any of my questions...

[asioasioasio]

Please calm down We need disussion and arguments - even when not alwas we agree with them

@ MrmAngeluS - Yeah more slavic nation could apear in the game
Pozdrav

[mitrydates]

As far as I see Poland still is the victim of nazi and soviet propaganda. History proved it dozens of times the stronger Poland, the weaker Russians and Germans. So they still want it to prevail...

Sad. Really sad. But we can't beat education system in the US. Good the British know more about their allies.

However, my conclusion on civilizations would be: if we have Germans, Russians and Ottomans in the region, the only one main player missing is Poland. If we'd have Germans, Slavs and Turkish, I'd kept my mouth shut and stayed silent.

Still it's a very interesting topic. And a chance to practice English

[Archacus]

As soon as I saw this topic I felt huge urge to add something.

Not many knows that the United States Declaration of Independence was not the first of its kind. Sadly but even Poles don’t know that we had similar document, that was the masterpiece of law, which one? I’m speaking about act written by Paweł Włodkowic z Brudzenia (Paulus Vladimiri), he was the first one to state that even pagan tribes have right to freedom and independence, and can coexist with Christian kingdoms. (conflict with Teutonic Knights).

The biggest battle in Medieval Europe? The battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg), even up to 80,000 men on the battlefield.

Many forgot that the first steps on the way called Democracy was not done by England or France. We had more than 10% of whole society with rights when England had up to 1 % and France even less. Other thing is that we were too weak to develop this system… I agree with that. One more the Constitution of May 3 was the first in Europe modern constitution that included even human rights.

Not only Maria Skłodowska-Curie, please do not forget about Michał Sędziwój (Michael Sendivogius) who was one of the greatest alchemist in Europe, and by that I mean one of the most important pioneers of chemistry.
We were also in our history one of the cultural center in Europe, polish language was very popular among Lithuanians, Ruthenians and even Germanic peoples. We didn’t forced anybody to learn our language.

Please consider that I do not mean that we are the greatest nation, because we are not, all of great nations had more beautiful parts in history and shadows that can be cause only for disgrace. Pardon me for my bad English I hope that everyone will understand the gist of my message.

We would be honored, if all players could choose Polish side in such great game. It would be great opportunity for all (even Poles) to learn something about our history and culture.
Have a nice day.

AND TO MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS DO NOT OFFEND OTHER NATIONS!

[pazdzioch]

You can make claims like "Without Poland all of Europe would have become communist in the 1920s", but in the end, this is just wild speculation. It no more realistic than the people who claim that without the US's help, Britain would be speaking German right now. It's safe to say that Poland stopped the Soviet's plans to take control of central Europe, but anything more is speculative fiction. And considering that the Soviets still took control of central Europe, its hard to argue that this war had more of an impact on the course of world history than dozens of other wars and battles. Does influencing history for 30 years earn you a spot next to Carthage, which controlled the western Mediterranean for over 600 years?
countrymen.

@slowtarget, my sentence regarding comunism spreading around the whole of europe was certainly oversimplified. However, can You really imagine the Europe and world after the war was lost? There are some possibilities for speculations always and why not speculate? Just tell me what's Your opinion? What would probably happen after a lost war with Bolsheviks?
Comunism in Germany prevents election of Fascists - probable or not?
Weak comunist economy leads to earlier fall of Soviet Union - probable or not?

And sure, Copernicus figured out the correct model for our solar system and is credited for triggering the Scientific Revolution, but does that show the greatness of Poland, or of Copernicus? It wasn't as if Poland had a national program to further astronomy. Copernicus stood on the shoulders of other astronomers, of which the vast majority were not Polish. Now, that doesn't mean that Poland or the Polish people should not be proud of their countryman. Just that the accomplishments of one man don't make a culture historically significant. The Wright brothers built the first self-powered aircraft. Is that a reason why the US is historically important? No. The US didn't do anything to help the Wright brothers.

I disagree. The environment for scientific work Copernicus had during his life is incomparable to any other country in Europe in that times. Copernicus was free to talk and free to state his opinions contrary to Galileo who burned in flames for heresy.
Besides, who should be mentioned on the list of importance than the "great" people? We can always expand the list of inventors. Polish people had much more influence on the world than You would expect. Lots of people had to go abroad because of uprisings and problems during 123 years of occupation. First example that comes to my mind: Ernest Malinowski:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Malinowski
(english page is pure in info) His family fled because of uprisings. He build the first railway lines in Andes (Peru and Ecuador) moving the railways 3000 meters up in the mountains. Wasn't it a great deal for the countries that did not have that well educated people? Isn't it an influence in the world? How many such great people do You want to read about? Will You, in all the cases, say that they were just independent? Well somewhere they had to learn all the knowledge - wasn't it Poland where they studied and discussed their ideas? If so, isn't it a common success of the whole nation if the person (who have got a good education at school) invented or build something? By the way, regardin polish education - the Jagillonian unversity is one of the oldest in the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagiellonian_University
Would the Wrigth brothers build their aircraft without basic education and workshop supporting their efforts? Even the workshop itself is something that is the condition that MUST be satisfied. You will not accomplish the task without supporting environment.

Even "weaker" civilizations like the Aztecs, the Khmer, the Dutch, and even the Assyrians projected influence far beyond their borders for hundreds of years. Even after adjusting for modern historical "compression" factors, the Polish civilization doesn't really stand out. Would I argue that Mali or Hungary had more influence than Poland? No, I don't think so.

I don't rally know what You are talking about? Could You be more specific about 'adjusting for modern historical "compression" factors'? Can You make a brief comparison between Poland and other civ chosen by You?

cheers

[mitrydates]

Speaking about Polish influence; Sklodowska-Curie (two Nobel prizes: in physics and chemistry) after the WWI traveled the world to set up the first oncology institutes in the world and started the work for the cure for cancer.

Coming back to Poland. A power which ceased to exist and was born again deserves to be in the game for this only reason. Of course there is much more we spoke about but none can show any other example of civilization reborn.

[mitrydates]

We need disussion and arguments - even when not alwas we agree with them

The problem is WE know the reasons why Poland should be in the game. The people who disagree won't be convinced. Our arguments must reach the Devs.

[mitrydates]

Slowtarget,

all I need to know is the way you think Poland is minor comparing to Ottomans.

Both can be compared regarding military strength, power, its Golden Age, economy, start on the history scene. Leave the great people, inventions and unique units.

Just give me the argument what makes Ottomans better (or worse) than Poland to put it into the game.

[slowtarget]

Can You make a brief comparison between Poland and other civ chosen by You?

No, I'm afraid I can't.

Despite my initial reservations, I offered my opinions to this thread in an attempt to provide a rational, unemotional explanation for why I (and many other people) didn't expect to see Poland in the first 18 (or more) civilizations added to the game.

Despite repeatedly explaining my respect for Polish culture, providing logical reasoning for my opinions and maintaining a realistic perception of my own country, I have been repeatedly insulted, accused of wanton ignorance, and had people openly insult my country...

...because I have opinions that differ from theirs.

I don't see any purpose that can be served by any further debate from me. If you want an American to insult and blame for your country being passed over yet again, I'm sure you'll manage to find one. There are plenty of Americans who would be much more worthy of that treatment, and it seems pointless for me to waste more effort in writing well-thought-out posts just to be told that I'm an idiot.

Luckily, my judgment is consistent. Just as I don't accept the absolutely immeasurable contributions Copernicus as a measure of the greatness of Poland, the actions of a small number of individuals will do nothing to change my view of the the Polish as a friendly, welcoming and idealistic people.

It's clear to me now that this thread was never intended to include discussion on this topic. I openly admit that I am from the US, and believe me, I am more than familiar with the ways that nationalistic pride can color people's perception. I see it a dozen times a day, here. Sometimes it's easy to forget that Americans don't hold the monopoly on that.

It's unfortunate that only 18 civilizations will make it into the first version. I wish it were 32 so that I could join you in arguing for Poland's inclusion.

[Archacus]

Please do not feel offended, most of us do not mean to belittle anybody on this forum. We just try to state our opinions on that matter.

Most of us know that there is a little chance (ok no chances) for Poland to appear in game just because we want so, but maybe latter they will add our beloved country?

I am sorry If you felt that we disrespect you.

[mitrydates]

No, I'm afraid I can't.

That's what I was afraid of.

Despite repeatedly explaining my respect for Polish culture, providing logical reasoning for my opinions and maintaining a realistic perception of my own country, I have been repeatedly insulted, accused of wanton ignorance, and had people openly insult my country...

...because I have opinions that differ from theirs.

As as I read the posts you were insulted once (and once too much! to be honest), but at least two persons said they were sorry for that.

If it's not enough I say sorry, too.

I couldn't see any logical reasoning in your posts. You gave us some thoughts and asked some questions, but I couldn't see any answers. Good you made the discussion a hot pot.

You weren't accused of being ignorant, but by taking part in the discussion we expected you to know the history enough to compare Poland with other powers similar to its size and might (that's why I asked about Turkey).

And my fellow ally, who would dare to insult America!? Except Iran, of course... Poles can be mad, but not dumb!