I WANTED to feel for the guy. I just couldn't. There wasn't enough reason too.Originally Posted by Sassafras
Yes it needed more work. WAY more work.
No to me it's awesome.
I WANTED to feel for the guy. I just couldn't. There wasn't enough reason too.
It really is a shame.I have hope that we'll learn more about him somehow...
how about he's a guy who was just exploring the ocean one day minding his own business and he accidently finds Rapture,then before he gets a chance to check this new place out he gets thrown in jail in this new place he's never even heard that is so new to him of by some guy he doesn't even know because he was thought be government agent or something and then he gets his body pumped full of stuff he doesn't know what the heck it is,and THEN he gets mind-controlled and slammed into some kind of diving suit and a helmet,NEVER to see the surface AGAIN,and to top it all off he gets made to kill himself for no reason
Who he was before is what he lost before coming to Rapture. Can you imagine what it must have been like to stumble upon a place like Rapture? Then becoming a test subject and eventually, no longer a man? Mmmm... Flashbacks.how about he's a guy who was just exploring the ocean one day minding his own business and he accidently finds Rapture,then before he gets a chance to check this new place out he gets thrown in jail in this new place he's never even heard that is so new to him of by some guy he doesn't even know because he was thought be government agent or something and then he gets his body pumped full of stuff he doesn't know what the heck it is,and THEN he gets mind-controlled and slammed into some kind of diving suit and a helmet,NEVER to see the surface AGAIN,and to top it all off he gets made to kill himself for no reason
I think that would be interesting, that's all. I'm always curious. I just hoped to know more about him because he seemed, literally and figuratively, faceless. However, that did not stop me from loving his character, which is why his details seemed like they would be important.
Of course, this is where the player's imagination comes in.
My response is this "Why should I care about him if we don't actually know who he is, or was, and what drives him to be who he is now?" It's poor storytelling. That's all. And it killed the experience for me.
I respect you didn't dig it. Different strokes and all that jazz.
I personally felt the same with Jack though. He's nothing more than an engineered embryo being played by the powers that be within Rapture. He has no say, no free will, no incentive to be there or do what he does beyond the fact that he doesn't have a choice.
Can that be compelling for a story? Sure, obviously it worked and served it's purpose. But I don't see much difference between he and Delta. Each is implanted with memories or instructions, each serves a purpose for others and neither takes an active role in choosing to do what they do.
So personally I think if you find one to be 'poor storytelling' then they both can be argued as such.
I think they both serve the purpose of allowing gamers to be a faceless entity from which we can experience Rapture through fresh eyes. And I can't speak for the developers but I think that's one of the reasons they made these characters that way, to allow the immersion to come from the player as it pertains to the role they take.
I found that a child's need for her protector to be with her to be more personally compelling than Jack's tragic pawn usage.
Don't get me wrong, I think they both have shortcomings, but compared to 98% of games both are far better executed. I just don't think either deserves to be considered bad, because I don't believe either are.
I put a lot of time and energy into earning the $110 (thanks to the wonderful Illinois tax) I spent on the game, only to not enjoy what I payed for. I absolutely loved Bioshock 1, and suppose I could find another game that I can enjoy, but that doesn't put $110 back in my pocket. Had I known then what I know now, believe me, I wouldn't have wasted my money and time on Bioshock 2, and I probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
I agree with the principle that spending $110 for outdated and poorly coded tech is really bad mojo. I enjoyed the game, but it's filled to the brim with bugs, bad textures, and no AA support. If these things could have been stamped out or polished with due efficiency, I'd gladly welcome a delay.
Or would I? In retrospect I would have, but back then I might have been turned off by a delay.
It is a careful balance between maintaining interest and quality, but quality wins out in the end. And a bad product is bad forever.
At least until the damn patch.
I say at least we actually learned a definitive backstory for Jack. All we get on Delta is some tall-tale-esque explanation from a slimebag paparazzi who we know has been lying to make a living for a while, and betrayed me in the past. In the end I really have no idea who Delta is, and I feel no connection to him.
not to be mean or anything,but if would kindly,look up at my post above then tell me whether or not you feel anything for Delta..the other guy already gave his 2 cents...so after you read my above post...if you still don't think you feel anything for Delta,I'd like to if it's for the same reason,or what??
Last edited by Adam Addict L; 03-03-2010 at 11:36 AM.
That is a very good theory, but it is only that, a theory. I can understand leaving a bit of mystery surrounding a character, and letting them fill in some the blanks for themselves, but I don't want to have to fill in all the blanks. To be honest, for all I know he's an average guy in a diving suit, nothing special.how about he's a guy who was just exploring the ocean one day minding his own business and he accidently finds Rapture,then before he gets a chance to check this new place out he gets thrown in jail in this new place he's never even heard that is so new to him of by some guy he doesn't even know because he was thought be government agent or something and then he gets his body pumped full of stuff he doesn't know what the heck it is,and THEN he gets mind-controlled and slammed into some kind of diving suit and a helmet,NEVER to see the surface AGAIN,and to top it all off he gets made to kill himself for no reason
What has happened to him isn't reason enough to understand him. Let me provide two scenarios regarding Delta's past:
1. What if he was a horrible man who made it to Rapture, was accepted into society, committed heinous crimes, and forced into the suit as a punishment?
2. What if he was forced to take a dangerous job as a diver to support his starving family, wandered off the beaten path, and was put into the suit to silence him?
Now, depending on which of those scenarios you would go by, would you form a different opinion of him? Would you be able to connect to a criminal like you would a loving father? If scenario 1 was Delta's past, would you feel bad for him after Lamb forced him to kill himself? And even if you did, would you feel as bad as you did if scenario 2 was his past?
With Audio Diaries and Fontaine's explanations and a whole bunch of scattered clues, I felt I was able to piece a good amount of Jack's past together. Not all of it, but enough to connect.
except scenario 1 is unlikely...where as he could have been a horrible person on the surface...that wasn't the reason he was thrown in jail in Rapture,if you recall...he was thrown in jail because Ryan,in his infamous paranoia and dislike of parasites,thought he was a government agent sent to uncover the secret of Rapture,and thus Ryan had him thrown in jail...so scenario 2 seems more likely...he was thrown in jail under suspicion of being a ''spook''...then he had his body pumped full of chemicals unknown to him before he was even thrown into the Alpha suit(Alex the Great mentions he was ''so spliced he couldn't stand being put in the suit'') then finally he was put into the protector suit and made into an Alpha Series...perhaps it was to silence him,perhaps he was a bad person before...but in the end he was someone who had unforunate things(the jailing,splicing,Big Daddy mental condition,suiting,never to see the sun or have a real life,or perhaps make up for the bad things he might have done) happen to him for no good reason other than someone he never met in his life thought he was out to take Rapture for himself...as I said before,I find that reason enough to connect with Delta...
Last edited by Adam Addict L; 03-03-2010 at 12:25 PM.
It may be unlikely, but the thing is, we don't know for certain. Our details are given to us by Alex The Great, who is obviously out of his mind, and Stanley Poole, who lied and betrayed us, so our information is very questionable.
And just because something bad happened to him isn't reason enough for me to connect with him. I don't know anything about him. If a guilty man were punished, I probably wouldn't feel bad for him. If an innocent man were punished, i'd feel bad for him. If Delta committed heinous crimes in Rapture and as a result was put in a suit as punishment, then i'd say he got what was coming to him. If he just randomly found Rapture and was thrown in a suit, then i'd feel bad for him. But seeing as I know nothing other than what a man who made a living lying and a man who has become a horrible creature incapable of reason have told me, I don't know what to think of Delta.
but Stanley wasn't a liar,he was just some guy who worked for the newspaper who basically went to Ryan and said ''Hey Ryan this guy found Rapture!'' and Ryan being himself had ''Johnny Topside'' locked up. And since Alexander worked on Big Daddies as well ''since the beginning'' from what we are told by Sinclair,even though he is a monster,and even if he is incapable of reason,I see no reason for him to be lying about what information he has given us
Yes, Stanley was a liar. He infiltrated Lamb's family as a mole, lying to get in. He wasn't just some guy working for the newspaper when he heard of Delta, he had been working for Sinclair and Ryan, going undercover. You're leaving out the parts where he dropped Eleanor off at an orphanage because she threatened to tell her mother what he was doing, and the part where he killed everyone in Dionysus Park to keep his secret. He lies to you about why he wants the little sisters taken care of. He doesn't tell you that he was the one who turned you over to Ryan, you have to wait until Eleanor explains this to you. Poole knew what would happen to Delta when he turned him in. Otherwise, why would you have any reason to kill him?
Alexander worked on Big Daddies, but Alex The Great is not Gil Alexander. He has become something else. If he is incapable of reason, why would he have a reason to tell you the truth? He may be doing so, or he may be lying. The point is that he has lost his mind. Does he have any real reason to attack you? No. Does he? Yes. He could say exactly who you are, or he could say you are Santa Claus, the point is you can't really know for sure. Seeing as he has lost his mind, he may not even know what the truth is. Alexander knew that he would become something else, hence the placing of his instructions for you to kill him.
while I myself forgot that he infiltrated Lamb's ''family'',he doesn't lie to you about why he wants the Little Sisters gone...he tells you they are ''sniffing around for ADAM and he can't have that'' he doesn't exactly say why..then after you DO take care of them,he tells you ''now that old dirt stays undergound'' ,and him sending Eleanor to the orphanage didn't involve lying,he was getting rid of her so she wouldn't tell Sofia what he did.
As for Alex The Great..yes he was out of his mind..but like you said,he may very well be telling you the truth,but in his own insanity,he may be doing so without even realizing...but...now that I think about it,this is all off-topic
One thing though that Lamb confirms a lot of what he's saying and what he did was true. Giving you the knowledge that he turned you in -- so you can fill in the gaps of what he's lying about and what he's alluding to which is the truth.
Furthermore -- a lot of this is deliberate, and the developers even confirmed as much by giving reasons why his real name is never mentioned, and most likely more backstory. Because they want the player to see themselves as Delta. To see themselves as someone who was taken in, forced into a horrible situation and has to fight for the only thing he knows that matters - Elanor.
So you and I can pick the same game up, can play the same character, take what tid-bits we get and then formulate who we really want this person to be. Maybe it's a tragic story, one of sadness where he's forced into a horrible situation without reason or cause. He's a good person that doesn't deserve this. This would likely lead to the player playing him as a hero, saving little sisters and showing mercy on even those that betrayed him. Because that's what the player of the game WANTS Delta to be.
Or, alternatively --
He was a spy as Ryan suspected. Sent to destroy Rapture or seek it's knowledge for his own benefit or those he worked for. And now, after being caught he wants vengeance. He's spiteful to all of the world he now inhabits and will stop at nothing to destroy every last person he comes across and harvest all the little sisters for his own benefit, to be more powerful to exact revenge. So the player of the game can go about the word in that way as the game allows it.
Or perhaps it's something different, more muddled. But allowing the player to make those choices himself or herself in regards to the back story further allows them to play the game as they feel it should be played based on what they want to think and feel.
It succeeds in doing that.
Remember, Jack is a genetic creation himself, aged extremely fast to be powerful to finish a plan set forth by others. He has no real memories, no real back story himself. He - is no one. He is simply a man put on a path which you follow no matter what.
Now that still works in the same regard, but less personal in my opinion. But it still allowed gamers to struggle with that knowledge that they weren't anything but a pawn to reflect the choices they had made. Had they been malicious and harvested, showing the control Fonatine had over them, or did they spare the little ones showing a sliver of freewill that would ultimately free them emotionally?
The themes are quite similar. But Bioshock 2 is far more calculated than some give it credit for - it's meant to be specific to each of us alone.
Except unlike Mark Melzter,Delta did not have nor was he given ANY knowledge of Andrew Ryan or Rapture,he simply stumbled upon Rapture by pure accident...however on the rest,you could be right,he could spiteful about the terrible things that was done to him...just saying
Quoted for truth. This itself means that the negative opinions of several others in this thread are not only acceptable, but they are a valid way to feel from the game.
We can sit around arguing semantics and the philosophical meaning behind it all (and don't get me wrong, I agree completely with your above post), but in the grand scheme of things it comes down to opinion. Opinion cannot be argued. It isn't a fact, it isn't right or wrong, it just is.
I think this is the point we're missing in these "Bioshock 2 "insert negative synonym for failed here"" threads. We can argue the facts, the time line, the psychology and the philosophy of it, but we cannot argue based on what we the players get out of it. Some people will "get" it, both emotionally and mentally, some will just get it mentally and not feel the emotional (the visa versa applies here too), and some, sadly, will get none of it. It is all opinion and can only be changed if we're willing to change it as individuals.
This game was delayed. Three times. It's fine, geez.
And let's not forget that Johnny Topside was supposedly a well loved citizen of Rapture once he found it, so he obviously didn't perform crimes and other things like that.
Last edited by Bambi; 03-03-2010 at 03:52 PM.
A lot of disappointment can presumably be avoided if people remember to carefully observe that BioShock 2 is 2 and not 1.
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