18 Civilizations. The chosen?

[Shadowdragoon]

None of which refutes what I have said.

I am not saying Scandinavia shouldn't have a civ in the game if they make 50 of them.

But we have only 18. Xo...

Actually, by the way I read your post, you said that the decendants of the Vikings had done nothing to be proud of, and I gave 6 things to counter that.
and even if we just have 18, the Vikings (Scandinavian countries) should be among them. they belong on the list of 18 just as much.

[Procylon]

Actually, by the way I read your post, you said that the decendants of the Vikings had done nothing to be proud of, and I gave 6 things to counter that.
and even if we just have 18, the Vikings (Scandinavian countries) should be among them. they belong on the list of 18 just as much.

I said the descendants of the vikings have done nothing to be included as a Civ in Civ 5.

If they add 20-40 more civs that of course changes.

The Vikings arguably, have a chance for the 18, though I still think Spain's chance is higher.

[AykayUK]

I disagree with arguments that Vikings can't contend as a top 18 civ.

Scandinavians history and accomplishments compete with at the very least the Aztecs, Incas, Songhai and Japanese.

I understand why those civs are in. A good global spread of civs is good, and like many I think Samurai are cool. But no more worthy than Vikingrs.

[ancalimonungol]

I really hope this time we could have Turks who had been always turned a blind eye on as standard selectable nations for the sake of real history. They were rulers of Middle Asia, formed hundreds of empires and hundreds of millions still live on most of it. They are the inventors of monotheism and had believed in only one God with 99 names for thousands of years hence the name Turk meaning God knowing human. They most probably invented irrigation. They used iron hundreds of years before anyone else (hence the Chinese recorded Turks to use the magic metal) and used iron stirrups on horses and wheels to ride long ways, immigrating and truly shaping cultures and the world. Their actions gave birth to many civilizations like Roman Empire, Ottoman empire, etc and they themselves destroyed most of their own civilizations when it didn't work out any longer. Ottoman Empire was just a fraction of their known history which was not that impressive in the big picture. Most of those who refused to convert were killed by the Arabs and in Europe by the Inquisition but their belief still lives on. I think they deserve a place more than most of the civilizations on Civilization.

Looking forward to see a in-game video.

[Procylon]

I really hope this time we could have Turks who had been always turned a blind eye on as standard selectable nations for the sake of real history. They were rulers of Middle Asia, formed hundreds of empires and hundreds of millions still live on most of it. They are the inventors of monotheism and had believed in only one God with 99 names for thousands of years hence the name Turk meaning God knowing human. They most probably invented irrigation. They used iron hundreds of years before anyone else (hence the Chinese recorded Turks to use the magic metal) and used iron stirrups on horses and wheels to ride long ways, immigrating and truly shaping cultures and the world. Their actions gave birth to many civilizations like Roman Empire, Ottoman empire, etc and they themselves destroyed most of their own civilizations when it didn't work out any longer. Ottoman Empire was just a fraction of their known history which was not that impressive in the big picture. Most of those who refused to convert to Islam were killed by the Arabs and in Europe by the Inquisition but their belief still lives on. I think they deserve a place more than most of the civilizations on Civilization.

Looking forward to see a in-game video.

We already know the ottomans are in.

[ancalimonungol]

We already know the ottomans are in.

What I'm saying is they should be renamed Turks, and their history should be taken back a couple of thousands years back taking Turks native history into consideration. The phase of the creation of Ottoman Empire and destruction of Roman Empire may have caused the creation of nation states in Europe, but there is more to it and it goes back much more into the past. Middle Asia may be shown as an unknown to the rest of the world and history, but in reality, there is much we really know about them. There is even the great possibility that all Semitic religions and most of other religions are offsprings of Tengrism according to many branches of science. (only not history)

[Procylon]

What I'm saying is they should be renamed Turks, and their history should be taken back a couple of thousands years back taking Turks native history into consideration. The phase of the creation of Ottoman Empire and destruction of Roman Empire may have caused the creation of nation states in Europe, but there is more to it and it goes back much more into the past. Middle Asia may be shown as an unknown to the rest of the world and history, but in reality, there is much we really know about them. There is even the great possibility that all Semitic religions and most of other religions are offsprings of Tengrism according to many branches of science. (only not history)

If we did that for the turks we would have to do it to everyone, and there would only be 3 civs in this game.

Civilization is less about geographical location or antiquity than it is about the accomplishments of empires.

If 50 empires rise and fall in one spot they aren't just going to melt them all together, they are going to choose just 1.

[ancalimonungol]

If we did that for the turks we would have to do it to everyone, and there would only be 3 civs in this game.

Civilization is less about geographical location or antiquity than it is about the accomplishments of empires.

If 50 empires rise and fall in one spot they aren't just going to melt them all together, they are going to choose just 1.

Then there never were any civilizations in whole Middle Asia? Also Turkey is no longer the Ottoman Empire, yet it's one of the most powerful countries of the world. The problem is that people who won't understand our culture don't or can't see Turkic or Turkish civilizations simply as Turk civilization. Because that's how we see ourselves. There is no Turkish or Turkic differentiation as there is no such a thing in our culture or language. They just use their family names. Ottoman Empire is the cumulative result of actions of Turks. That's why they should be renamed. The only thing that's Middle Eastern and/or Arabic about Ottoman Empire is Islam, and even that's disputable because Töre (cultural law) (the word is a derivative of Torah and also tarih means history in Turkic dialects) always supersedes Islam and Islam is totally different from Middle Eastern Islam with Turks. Ottoman Empire is just another branch of Turkic civilization. It's just the most famous because they were the closest to Europe and the most extensive. They just came back with the aim to take Istanbul back after thousands of years. After seeing that they could take more, they didn't stop.

[Procylon]

Then there never were any civilizations in whole Middle Asia? Also Turkey is no longer the Ottoman Empire, yet it's one of the most powerful countries of the world. The problem is that some people don't see Turkic or Turkish civilizations as Turk. They just use their family names. Ottoman Empire is the cumulative result of action of Turks. That's why they should be renamed. Ottoman Empire as the only thing that's Middle Eastern and/or Arabic about Ottoman Empire is Islam, and even that's disputable. Ottoman Empire is just another branch of Turkic civilization. It's just the most famous because they were the closest to Europe and the most extensive. They just came back with the aim to take Istanbul back after thousands of years.

You are stuck on the fact that people still live in one geographical location and call themselves turk.

Its like calling most of Europe just a branch of the Roman Empire. It doesn't work in the context of the civ game. Rome had a might empire, and is a Civ in the game. Britain had a mighty empire and is a civ in the game. Russia, US, China, Mongolia, etc, etc all had mighty empires and it is why they are in the game.

Ottoman had a mighty empire, so Ottoman is in.

By your train of thought we could just go all the way back to the very origin of humanty and just have 1 civ, Human Civilization.

[ancalimonungol]

You are stuck on the fact that people still live in one geographical location and call themselves turk.

Its like calling most of Europe just a branch of the Roman Empire. It doesn't work in the context of the civ game. Rome had a might empire, and is a Civ in the game. Britain had a mighty empire and is a civ in the game. Russia, US, China, Mongolia, etc, etc all had mighty empires and it is why they are in the game.

Ottoman had a mighty empire, so Ottoman is in.

By your train of thought we could just go all the way back to the very origin of humanty and just have 1 civ, Human Civilization.

I havent made myself clear. There were several dynasties in China. One of them took control. But we have the "Chinese" civilization. Not the for instance "Shang Civilization"

Another example could be that there were several people trying to control England, yet we call them "English civilization" not "Robin Hood civilization" or "X of Normandy civilization

I think I've finaly made myself clear. That's why we should not name them the Ottoman civilization, but the Turk civilization. Because the Ottoman dynasty of the Oguz branch of people who called themselves "Turks" or "Turk race" rallied the Turks together to form an Empire. All of the Turkic countries speak the same language with different dialects, most of them mutualy intelligable, and some can be learned among like their main language by 3 months of studying. This is not like what the situation among European nations is.

The accomplishments I wrote about earlier are not Ottoman Empire's they are the accomplishments of Turks that migrated to Anatolia and even Europe and (America (which is yet a theory)) for thousands of years the last migration being 1071, taking with them most of the advanced technologies, high culture and what we today call "religion" with them. That was how they succeeded, and when they collapsed, the reason was that they no longer had advanced technologies, high culture and a moral religion. This is true for all civilizations.

This situation looks most like why we have a Vikings civilization.

I don't know what else I can say to make my point more clear.

[ancalimonungol]

If 50 empires rise and fall in one spot they aren't just going to melt them all together, they are going to choose just 1.

Yet we include Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, etc.. even though they existed on roughly the same geography which is Anatolia and Istanbul.

[Procylon]

Ok I got it. And I can see your point.


However, I think the devs choose the civilizations that are in the game by the size of the empire that they formed(which largely determines the extent of their influence on history).

14 out of the 18 civs are in the top 24 for largest empires of all time.

The other 4, Songhai, Inca, etc were all major empires of their region. Kind of tokens to those parts of the world that would be unrepresented otherwise.

Also, if you look at the main Civ 5 website, they mention "World's mightiest empire" 4-5 times.

So that is probably the main reason why we have Ottoman instead of Turk. As a representation of a certain point in history when that region's largest empire dominated.

The turks were in Civ 3 weren't they?

[Procylon]

Yet we include Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, etc.. even though they existed on roughly the same geography which is Anatolia and Istanbul.

Right, it is because geography is less important than Empires and the influence they had on the world.

[ancalimonungol]

The other 4, Songhai, Inca, etc were all major empires of their region. Kind of tokens to those parts of the world that would be unrepresented otherwise.

The turks were in Civ 3 weren't they?

Among other 4 which include Songhai, Inca, etc, Turks who aren't included are the biggest among their region which is Middle Asia and most important for our worlds history, and both Middle Asia and Turks are ignored since first Civilization game. It's like a huge dark void. Why ignore them? Put them in their rightful place I say.


We again had Ottomans in an expansion in Civ 3.

[Procylon]

Among other 4 which include Songhai, Inca, etc, Turks who aren't included are the biggest among their region which is Middle Asia and most important for our worlds history, and both Middle Asia and Turks are ignored since first Civilization game. It's like a huge dark void. Why ignore them? Put them in their rightful place I say.


We again had Ottomans in an expansion in Civ 3.

They are including the Turks under the Ottoman banner since the Ottomans had the largest and most influential empire of that people group.

Same reason Rome beats out Italy, and a host of other examples I can't think of right now.

Empires are the heights of civilization, and so the 18 civs making it into the game have had huge and important empires. Those that didn't quite have "huge" empires, at least had regional empires that were very importan AND geographically key to certain regions such as South America and Africa.

The Turks are at least being represented right? They might be under the name of the Ottoman Empire, but it isn't like the Turks are left out of the game.

It could be worse.

[ancalimonungol]

I guess I'll never understand how Middle Asia is not important being the silk road itself. European Nations because of Ottoman Empire no more allowing them to use it went and discovered America. Silk road was the reason for the enlightenment of Europe. The Middle Asia Turkic countries were one of the main reasons why USSR collapsed.

[ancalimonungol]

The Turks are at least being represented right? They might be under the name of the Ottoman Empire, but it isn't like the Turks are left out of the game.

It could be worse.

If Turks aren't represented in a game like Civilization, it would be ignorance. If they are represented as Ottoman Empire instead of Turk Empire, then it feels political or ideological even if the intentions are different, as people know and judge Ottoman Empire by their last years, which were not very nice memories for neither the "East" nor the "West". Although usually only West have a saying about them (being the world powers together) feeding people shallow and unilateral assertions like genocides, barbarism, inferiority and many other negative things and propaganda that could come to your mind. Ottoman Empire does not and can never correctly represent Turk culture.

[Destrox]

I haven't read everything yet, I just say, that since its a NEW Civilization a BETTER civilization they should make it possible to adjust the Civilization.
Total War gives a perfect example: If you make a revolution and you win it, then your country changes itself.
Prussia becomes Germany for example.
I think they should give the choice to take a tribe and lead it through its identities
For example start with the Turks, and lead it from the Seldschuks through the ottoman empire to the modern Turkey.
Or take the Germans and lead them from goths through the holy roman empire to modern Germany.

And for that I think you should take those civs:

Greece, Romans, Arabs, Persians, Turks, India, Chinese, Japanese, Russia, Vikings, Germans, French, Inca, Aztek, Indians (American), Kelts, Zulu and Egypts

[Soviet_Storm]

yeah i like the sound of this,

just having a vision right now.........Celtic to Gaulish to Ireland!

yup, unique building would be the Pub, which replaces the university, could eliminate unhappiness in a city :P

Unique unit could be rather IRA guerilla which can attack an enemy without declaring war (bit like the pirate ship) or IRA Spy which has additional and cheaper missions i.e assasination of industrial/economic leaders, which could slightly affect production/commerce in all the enemy civs cities.

Another mission could be to affect the target civ's relations with one of their allies i.e the way the Irish managed damage the uk/usa relationship & the uk/eu relationship.

The Irish have contributed culturally etc massively to the 2 biggest empires ever in the world, the USA and UK.

Just to note the Irish Republic was the first country to gain FULL independence from the British empire when it was at the height of its power, all while only being less than 200 miles away from the heart of the beast.

honestly though all joking aside, i dont mind and accept that ireland will never be a civ, and you know what i honestly couldnt care less....

i would like to see all the civs people have been asking for, Turkey...Poland...Canada...Spain, just so everyone gets a chance etc

personally i love the game and regardless of what civ i choose once ive actually get into the game abit i usually forget which civ i started with. most of whats being mentioned on these threads are people being nationalist, which is to be expected i guess

i say draw them out of a hat, i'd love to build a world empire as East Timor or Kosovo

[actasci]

well as far i can see, everybody trying to teach their civ is the most important civ in the world; well everybody know that, every country's elementary and/or high school history lessons tries to teach their own culture first. but canada? c'mon, you people making me laugh. like "ancalimonungol" said, turks are most important civ in the middle east; but they still hardly added the civ4 with expansion pack. middle east important, because homo sapiens build their first cities in there. and turks, they build hagia sophia; the great wall build because of them, they have one of the world's biggest and important city "Istanbul" and we can found too many examples like these ones. again, what do you people are thinking about canada? electric bulb? telephone(sorry but that was stolen rom graham bell, right? )? ok, maybe we can accept they have beautiful healthcare system, or great gini and HDI. than they need to add cuba too and switzerland; maybe south africa... anyway, much civ means better game, but if that's gonna be just 18, than there is no room for canada.

i don't know what civ's going to be in this game, so i need the predict mines.
-Americans
-Portugal
-Germany
-France
-Rome (Italy)
-Greece
-Ottoman (Turkey)
-Spain
-Egypt
-China
-Japan
-Korea
-Vikings
-England
-Arabs
-Indians
-Russia
and the last one could be Ethiopia or maybe Netherlands. But really, 18? You people really need to add much more civs than that. it's probably not a hard thing for sid and his team.

[Procylon]

well as far i can see, everybody trying to teach their civ is the most important civ in the world; well everybody know that, every country's elementary and/or high school history lessons tries to teach their own culture first. but canada? c'mon, you people making me laugh. like "ancalimonungol" said, turks are most important civ in the middle east; but they still hardly added the civ4 with expansion pack. middle east important, because homo sapiens build their first cities in there. and turks, they build hagia sophia; the great wall build because of them, they have one of the world's biggest and important city "Istanbul" and we can found too many examples like these ones. again, what do you people are thinking about canada? electric bulb? telephone(sorry but that was stolen rom graham bell, right? )? ok, maybe we can accept they have beautiful healthcare system, or great gini and HDI. than they need to add cuba too and switzerland; maybe south africa... anyway, much civ means better game, but if that's gonna be just 18, than there is no room for canada.

i don't know what civ's going to be in this game, so i need the predict mines.
-Americans
-Portugal
-Germany
-France
-Rome (Italy)
-Greece
-Ottoman (Turkey)
-Spain
-Egypt
-China
-Japan
-Korea
-Vikings
-England
-Arabs
-Indians
-Russia
and the last one could be Ethiopia or maybe Netherlands. But really, 18? You people really need to add much more civs than that. it's probably not a hard thing for sid and his team.

The actual list of the 17 known civs has already been posted in this thread a few times now. It is in here if you want to check your guesses against it.

[actasci]

this thread has 48 pages, whatever; there was the civs what i want to see in this game.

[Jad.3]

I want the Bohemians! Czechs!
Also, no Americans. I recall, there were no Americans 4000BC But they may turn up somewhere as a rebeling colony

[nipolian]

But...Where are the Byzantines? Yeah, the Ottomans (I think it was them) took Constantinople, and made it Istanbul, but Byzantine was pretty impressive before that. Hippodromes, Justinian I, Christianity, Constantine. Home to some pretty important stuff... Just my opinion.
PS. I know Christianity wasn't founded there, but it greatly spread because of it.
Also, apparently nobody agrees Italy to be included in an expansion at least?

[Embodiment of Leetness]

Okay, from what I've gathered on from various gaming sites where people saw some civ V games being played these are the 14 civs and leaders they've revealed, the other 4 are unknown to most all people to my knowledge

1. American: George Washington
2. Aztec: Montezuma
3. Egyptian: Ramesses II
4. Chinese: Wu Zetian(My only source saying Wu Zetian is in the game is Wikipedia, so this info could easily be false)
5. English: Elizabeth I
6. French: Napoleon Bonaparte
7. German: Otto von Bismarck
8. Greek: Alexander the Great
9. Indian: Mohandas Gandhi
10. Japanese: Oda Nobunaga
11. Ottoman: Suleiman
12. Roman: Julius Caesar
13. Russian: Catherine the Great
14. Songhai: Askia

So unless they change something, those will definitely be in Civ V, my bet is the last 4 are the Spanish, Arabs, Mongols, and Zulu, and if the information on Wu Zetian is false, then i'm gonna bet Mao is going to be in again, but not in the Chinese version, like he's alway's been

[BlackwatchGuards]

I want the Bohemians! Czechs!
Also, no Americans. I recall, there were no Americans 4000BC But they may turn up somewhere as a rebeling colony

There were also no british, no real romans. There were no ottomans, there was no civilization called the Bohemians or the Czechs. The point of Civ is to implement important civilizations of all time, not necessarily to put whatever was around in 4000 BC. Half the civilizations would be gone.

[BlackwatchGuards]

But...Where are the Byzantines? Yeah, the Ottomans (I think it was them) took Constantinople, and made it Istanbul, but Byzantine was pretty impressive before that. Hippodromes, Justinian I, Christianity, Constantine. Home to some pretty important stuff... Just my opinion.
PS. I know Christianity wasn't founded there, but it greatly spread because of it.
Also, apparently nobody agrees Italy to be included in an expansion at least?

I would like to see the Byzantines too, and they undoubtedly contributed greatly to history, but I think they might be too much like the Romans to qualify for the 18.

[Allochtony]

How come Israel's never included?! They're such an important part of ancient and recent history!

I don't know, maybe with King David and David Ben Gurion as their leaders!

[actasci]

How come Israel's never included?! They're such an important part of ancient and recent history!

I don't know, maybe with King David and David Ben Gurion as their leaders!

dude, nobody knows anything about people you said. not like the others. ie Napoleon, everybody knows him, or Bismarck, Elizabeth, Catherine, Isabella, Suleiman or II. Mehmed, Roosevelt or Washington everybody knows them too. that's the difference. Probably Sid never heard them too.

[Embodiment of Leetness]

So that leaves 4 or 5 spots open

I bet they are...

Spanish: Isabella
Mongols: Genghis Kahn
Arabs: Saladin
Zulu: Shaka
and if Wu Zetian is not the Chinese leader, then Mao.

[Jad.3]

There were also no british, no real romans. There were no ottomans, there was no civilization called the Bohemians or the Czechs. The point of Civ is to implement important civilizations of all time, not necessarily to put whatever was around in 4000 BC. Half the civilizations would be gone.

The Boi might have been there I get your point. And I still want the Bohemians.

How come Israel's never included?! They're such an important part of ancient and recent history!

I don't know, maybe with King David and David Ben Gurion as their leaders!

Because there are such funny characters as Mao or Stalin, so soon there will be Hitler and that doesn´t add up, he would have to be constantly at war with Israel

[Embodiment of Leetness]

I saw something on a gaming website previewing the game, they said something about Queen Victoria, I've got Elizabeth I down on my list, this could mean 4 things

1. Queen Victoria is England's leader
2. There will be multiple leader choices per countries again
3. It was a mistake calling Elizabeth, Victoria
4. Her name was being used just as an example

[Allochtony]

dude, nobody knows anything about people you said. not like the others. ie Napoleon, everybody knows him, or Bismarck, Elizabeth, Catherine, Isabella, Suleiman or II. Mehmed, Roosevelt or Washington everybody knows them too. that's the difference. Probably Sid never heard them too.

Come on dude, get your history straight! King David.. Bible? you might have heard of that.. try reading it. And Ben Gurion is only the guy who established the beautiful state of Israel

Sid can call me if he wants to know some more

[actasci]

Come on dude, get your history straight! King David.. Bible? you might have heard of that.. try reading it. And Ben Gurion is only the guy who established the beautiful state of Israel

Sid can call me if he wants to know some more

sorry about bible. i have nothing about it if he's on Bible, yep i get it he must be important. my fault.

[SynT]

Come on dude, get your history straight! King David.. Bible? you might have heard of that.. try reading it. And Ben Gurion is only the guy who established the beautiful state of Israel

Sid can call me if he wants to know some more

Did he really exist? The Bible doesn't prove it

Just as for Jesus, there is no real evidence outside the bible that he existed.

[BlackwatchGuards]

Let's close this down before it gets started.
Jesus may have existed. He may not have existed. He may have been the son of God. He may have not. Religious arguments are usually pointless. People are entitled to there opinions.

[SynT]

Let's close this down before it gets started.
Jesus may have existed. He may not have existed. He may have been the son of God. He may have not. Religious arguments are usually pointless. People are entitled to there opinions.

Yeah, sorry I don't want to destroy this topic with a holy war. It's just my opinion based on evidence I see.

I'm open for people disproving me but send me a PRIVATE message on the matter.

[William of Orange]

I would be in favor of adding Poland and possibly the Ukraine. I am not sure what I would include as a special Polish building, but perhaps the country could be given the following characteristics instead.

(1) Starts with Religious Freedom civic and 10% research bonus, but cannot select a state religion or use any other religion civic. This reflects Poland's history as the first major European country with almost complete religious freedom.

(2) Liberum Veto; Poland can, upon creation of the Apostolic Palace and United Nations, opt out of participation; i.e. it can ignore decisions without penalty but does not get a vote in the proceedings. (The actual Liberum Veto was the ability of any member of the Parliament or Sejm to shut down any piece of legislation; a single-person filibuster as it were).

(3) Special unit: Winged Hussar. This substitute for the Cuirassier gets a 25% bonus against all infantry because of a long lance designed specifically to outreach infantry pikes, and also possibly a 25% bonus against all mounted units (except Elephants) because of wings and leopard furs whose purpose may have been to frighten enemy horses.

(4) Leaders: Wladislaw Jagiello, Stephen Bathory, Jan Sobieski III

[Revolution Child]

PERSIA - DESERVES To Be In The Game! Persia was the FIRST ever civilization in this world when the freaking Polls, Spans, Italians, lived in tribes! How DARE they?!?!

[MadDjinn]

PERSIA - DESERVES To Be In The Game! Persia was the FIRST ever civilization in this world when the freaking Polls, Spans, Italians, lived in tribes! How DARE they?!?!

no it wasn't, now quit spamming the forums.