Scaling Back BioShock 2's DRM

[mark_t50]

Here is the link to the GFWL phone numbers
http://www.microsoft.com/games/en-US...ctsupport.aspx

Thankyou.

Wow, it looks like Microsoft might actually be doing something right, it turns out it is a freephone number for the UK, although not quite 24x7 they at least operate 7 days a week and open till 22:00 week nights.

Combine this with 2K Elizabeth's assurances to be on hand should you have problems with getting more activations, well that's me sold. As unpalettable as I still find any limit to activations, I think this is a system that is at least giving the customer enough room to work with.

I've just placed my pre-order on steam, and found that they are giving you BS1 for free it's downloading now I joined these forums over 2 years ago to protest the DRM in BS1 and never did get the game on PC, so I'm really looking forward to playing.

Thanks again to 2K Elizabeth and 2K themselves for being flexible. I realise that many of you might still not be happy for one reason or another and I wish you well in the fight against the plague that is DRM, but for me this particular fight is over.

[z3razerviper]

Thankyou.

Wow, it looks like Microsoft might actually be doing something right, it turns out it is a freephone number for the UK, although not quite 24x7 they at least operate 7 days a week and open till 22:00 week nights.

Combine this with 2K Elizabeth's assurances to be on hand should you have problems with getting more activations, well that's me sold. As unpalettable as I still find any limit to activations, I think this is a system that is at least giving the customer enough room to work with.

I've just placed my pre-order on steam, and found that they are giving you BS1 for free it's downloading now I joined these forums over 2 years ago to protest the DRM in BS1 and never did get the game on PC, so I'm really looking forward to playing.

Thanks again to 2K Elizabeth and 2K themselves for being flexible. I realise that many of you might still not be happy for one reason or another and I wish you well in the fight against the plague that is DRM, but for me this particular fight is over.

How is this new implementation flexible? Its even worse than before.
Oh and those phone numbers I gave you take on average 2 weeks to issue a new key and once again will ONLY DO IT ONETIME per their policy

[FirestormXVI]

I am perfectly fine with Games for Windows Live. I understand that it is being used for matchmaking and I like the service it provides in letting me stay connected to my Xbox Live friends (not to mention letting me keep a unified games list on my Live and Steam profile).

However, SecuROM does not look to be providing me with any service whatsoever and actually has duties that I find redundant with Steam's DRM technology. You listed a date check as the function of SecuROM. When we pre-load Bioshock 2, it will be encrypted so we cannot play it. Once the date is lifted, that is when we can start playing.

As we all know, SecuROM is easily hacked and SecuROM games are usually available on release or before. There is really little reason to put SecuROM into Steam when Valve's DRM provides the same services to both the publisher and user.

[Nytewulfe]

However, your feedback is what we want, and we use it to determine protection for future games. We like it.

As a customer that pays for his games, because I believe that it is only proper way to posses them, what I want in future games, is to be able to pop my non-drm protected dvd into my drive and start playing the game.

From my perspective that is ideal. If a cd-check would make you feel better, I can live with that, and I can even live with a quick online check of my cd-key to verify its authenticity, but registration with a third party service, limited number of installs, and all that is going way over the limit and unacceptable.

I thank you for your time, and the answers to the questions that have been asked. I've decided that I will avoid purchasing this game. If in the future, you decide to release a patch that disables the gfwl integration, I'll revisit the issue.

[Connect]

It's time to bring some light over the LIES that are being spread by 2K employees in this forum:

LIE #1: "Scaling Back BioShock 2's DRM" - 2K is NOT scaling back ANY DRM. It is THE EXACT SAME DRM SCHEME that was presented a few days ago. NOTHING HAS CHANGED, thus it is a LIE.

LIE #2: "Many of you have used Batman: Arkham Asylum as an example to me, which uses the exact same Games for Windows Live guidelines as us" - BATMAN ARKHAM ASYLUM USES A DIFFERENT "guideline" because it does NOT require the user to be online EVER for either INSTALLING OR PLAYING THE GAME. Bioshock 2 requires user to go online AT LEAST ONCE for activation. One would have to be either RETARDED or IGNORANT to not realize this after so many users have posted this out, users who have tested their RETAIL copy of BATMAN and it DOES NOT REQUIRE AN INTERNET CONNECTION AT ANY POINT DURING AND/OR AFTER THE INSTALLATION. EVER! I don't think that 2K employees are retarded, thus the only explanation is ignorance.

LIE #3: "There are two types of GFWL setups: one using non-SSA-keys, which is what we have, and has a 15 install limit. The other option is an SSA-key, which we didn't want to use. These are the standards, and every game uses one or the other. Batman goes our route." - BLATANT LIE! There are at least 3 types of GFWL setups, one being the Batman one, meaning NO ONLINE ACTIVATION WHATSOEVER. If Batman has a different setup then it is clear that there are at least 3 and YOU ARE LYING TO THE CUSTOMERS! Well, another explanation is that the person who decided the DRM had no idea there is the 3rd method and got tricked by Microsoft to use their activation system. STOP PUTTING BATMAN IN THE SAME ROTTEN BOAT AS YOU, because BATMAN got things right and uses neither the SSA-key, neither the non-SSA-key. It simply works without an internet connection, a thing which your product DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT.

IN CONCLUSION:

BATMAN ARKHAM ASYLUM (RETAIL VERSION): NO ONLINE REQUIRED

BIOSHOCK 2 (RETAIL VERSION): ONLINE REQUIRED TO ACTIVATE THE GAME

[mark_t50]

How is this new implementation flexible? Its even worse than before.
Oh and those phone numbers I gave you take on average 2 weeks to issue a new key and once again will ONLY DO IT ONETIME per their policy

I guess it depends on what bit of DRM you object to. For 2 years my objection has been limited activations. I've always been prepared to put up with SecuROM without the limited activations (i.e. disk and .exe checks), I'm prepared to put up with GFWL, but I always stated that the only way I would ever accept a limit to activations would be if they provided a freephone number I could call 7 days a week.

So for me, the removal of the 5 SecuROM activation limits from the Steam version is what I mean by 2K being flexible. I'm not saying it's perfect and I'm in full support of those who choose to continue to fight on, I have special sympathy for those in non Live countries.

As for the issues with taking 2 weeks to get an activation back, that would worry me and I'd take 2K Elizabeth at her word and contact her should I find that to be the case. I think my post history speaks for the fact that I have not made this decision lightly, but for me personally I've decided it is good enough to take 2K at their word. If they let me down then I'm the stubborn type who would just never purchase a product of theirs in the future.

[2K Elizabeth]

Actually, that part sticks out to me. Does this mean that the BS2 disc will be the same as with BS1 & be missing some files so it will have to download the missing files on install (while probably posing as "downloading the latest patch" as per the original Bioshock) as a method of preventing 0-day piracy? So anyone who manages to get the game prior to release day won't be able to download the missing files to play it until release day?

That would explain how the GFWL/SecuROM implementation can be the same as with B:AA yet still require a 'net connection to install

The zero day implementation is so someone can't get the game before launch and post videos and spoilers, because the game's plot is key and it would ruin the experience for everyone else. I know this can't be applied to console games, unfortunately, but we set a date and we hold everyone to it as strictly as we possibly can (and we want to know when a retailer violates it) becasue it's important to us.

As for Batman, I can tell you what I've researched online and installed personally - that's the best I can do. It seems that their SecuROM (from their FAQ) did have a date check as well, and when I installed the game offline without GFWL, they wouldn't let me save until I went online and made myself a profile (which I could then use offline.) If there's another way to do this, I'd be interested in the trick.

[Oppopji]

Why is there a .exe check using SecuRom on steam. Steam's DRM is fine. And why would you allow a game to have an activation limit? Regardless if its 5, 15, or a million.

I would guess that it's there to prevent the Steam binaries from being used to crack the SecuROM protection on the retail version.

However, your feedback is what we want, and we use it to determine protection for future games. We like it.

Well, for future consideration then

Don't make retail versions of games require online activation/authentication (or any other system that requires you to be online) just to install & play offline. The system EA is using for Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 seems quite reasonable to me: They let you install and play the games using only a simple disc check, without having to go online at any stage - but they give you incentives to register for an online account by offering free DLC etc. This way, people who have a legitimate copy of the game have a better version of (and a better experience with) the game rather than the other way round. Plus EA have saved money by not having to fork out however much (plus more in royalties I expect) to Sony etc. for using the likes of SecuROM.

I would even consider getting Bioshock 2 despite it's requirement for online activation if I had a guarantee that 2K games would release an 'offline installer' patch later on (e.g. within 6 months after release) that would allow installation of the game & updating to the latest patch without having to go online at all.

[zippy476]

Thankyou.

Wow, it looks like Microsoft might actually be doing something right, it turns out it is a freephone number for the UK, although not quite 24x7 they at least operate 7 days a week and open till 22:00 week nights.

Combine this with 2K Elizabeth's assurances to be on hand should you have problems with getting more activations, well that's me sold. As unpalettable as I still find any limit to activations, I think this is a system that is at least giving the customer enough room to work with.

I've just placed my pre-order on steam, and found that they are giving you BS1 for free it's downloading now I joined these forums over 2 years ago to protest the DRM in BS1 and never did get the game on PC, so I'm really looking forward to playing.

Thanks again to 2K Elizabeth and 2K themselves for being flexible. I realise that many of you might still not be happy for one reason or another and I wish you well in the fight against the plague that is DRM, but for me this particular fight is over.

So what happens if M$ denies you in say 5 years if you run out (if GFWL is even around then). And you try and contact Elizabeth and she has moved on. Then what?

Again it could be 1 or a million activation limits, Activation limits on something you paid for is not OK. I don't see 2k doing anything to fix or address this. But they are not the only ones. That is why I refuse to buy games with activation limits in any form. Again you will not tell me how many times I can play my game.

Would you buy a movie that only let you watch it a certain number of times. Or a song that only let you listen to it a certain number of times? NO. These company's in all forms of media have started to over step with there DRM policies. I only see two ways to tell them that you are not happy. Some people choose and illegal rout in pirating their stuff, and some choose not to buy there stuff. Either way they lose money and will get the message.

Its is your right to buy the game. But understand that by you giving in and giving them your money you are basically saying that what they are doing is OK. Money is the only thing that a company will understand.

I call for at the very least SecuROM is removed from the steam version and 2k gives a promise that they will never use activation limits IN ANY FORM again. From the sounds of it they screwed themselves and got in bed with M$ who seems to be running the show now. So the whole GFWL activation limit I am guessing is on this game to stay. But there is no reason steam should have SecuRom. When 2k removes it (and I do say when because eventually they will just like they did the last time) I will buy it, at discount price of course because it will probably be a year from now.

[2K Elizabeth]

It's time to bring some light over the LIES that are being spread by 2K employees in this forum:

LIE #1: "Scaling Back BioShock 2's DRM" - 2K is NOT scaling back ANY DRM. It is THE EXACT SAME DRM SCHEME that was presented a few days ago. NOTHING HAS CHANGED, thus it is a LIE.

LIE #2: "Many of you have used Batman: Arkham Asylum as an example to me, which uses the exact same Games for Windows Live guidelines as us" - BATMAN ARKHAM ASYLUM USES A DIFFERENT "guideline" because it does NOT require the user to be online EVER for either INSTALLING OR PLAYING THE GAME. Bioshock 2 requires user to go online AT LEAST ONCE for activation. One would have to be either RETARDED or IGNORANT to not realize this after so many users have posted this out, users who have tested their RETAIL copy of BATMAN and it DOES NOT REQUIRE AN INTERNET CONNECTION AT ANY POINT DURING AND/OR AFTER THE INSTALLATION. EVER! I don't think that 2K employees are retarded, thus the only explanation is ignorance.

LIE #3: "There are two types of GFWL setups: one using non-SSA-keys, which is what we have, and has a 15 install limit. The other option is an SSA-key, which we didn't want to use. These are the standards, and every game uses one or the other. Batman goes our route." - BLATANT LIE! There are at least 3 types of GFWL setups, one being the Batman one, meaning NO ONLINE ACTIVATION WHATSOEVER. If Batman has a different setup then it is clear that there are at least 3 and YOU ARE LYING TO THE CUSTOMERS! Well, another explanation is that the person who decided the DRM had no idea there is the 3rd method and got tricked by Microsoft to use their activation system. [b]STOP PUTTING BATMAN IN THE SAME ROTTEN BOAT AS YOU[/u], because BATMAN got things right and uses neither the SSA-key, neither the non-SSA-key. It simply works without an internet connection, a thing which your product DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT.

IN CONCLUSION:

BATMAN ARKHAM ASYLUM (RETAIL VERSION): NO ONLINE REQUIRED

BIOSHOCK 2 (RETAIL VERSION): ONLINE REQUIRED TO ACTIVATE THE GAME

Connect -

When I came out on Wednesday and told you guys about the retail version, I did not explain anything about Steam because we went back and scaled back what we were doing based on your feedback, and came out today with what was the most we could do. We most definitely changed our SecuROM to be more of what you asked for.

As for Batman, I've said this before, but from my research on the SecuROM site, it seems that the game did have a date check (which is what we are using as well.) But if Batman did change their SecuROM (or if somehow my research is flawed or the FAQ on that site is incorrect!) then that would explain this situation.

This ties in to your third point, which is about the different standards. GFWL is not doing the online checking, so yes, there are only SSA and non-SSA keys.

[sp1ke]

whatever it is,this is 2K's decision and we have to live with that.

I expected that the steam version would atleast have no such limits whatsoever and use the batman activation system(4 activations per month).It would have been perfect.

But anyways,the game has a lot of proetction now,but at the end of the day,if pirates tend to crack it the day its released and make it "activation free",that would be ridiculous.

[zippy476]

I am perfectly fine with Games for Windows Live. I understand that it is being used for matchmaking and I like the service it provides in letting me stay connected to my Xbox Live friends (not to mention letting me keep a unified games list on my Live and Steam profile).

However, SecuROM does not look to be providing me with any service whatsoever and actually has duties that I find redundant with Steam's DRM technology. You listed a date check as the function of SecuROM. When we pre-load Bioshock 2, it will be encrypted so we cannot play it. Once the date is lifted, that is when we can start playing.

As we all know, SecuROM is easily hacked and SecuROM games are usually available on release or before. There is really little reason to put SecuROM into Steam when Valve's DRM provides the same services to both the publisher and user.

Don't forget GFWL has an activation limit.

and of course I agree that having SecuROm on steam is stupid.

Connect -

When I came out on Wednesday and told you guys about the retail version, I did not explain anything about Steam because we went back and scaled back what we were doing based on your feedback, and came out today with what was the most we could do. We most definitely changed our SecuROM to be more of what you asked for.

As for Batman, I've said this before, but from my research on the SecuROM site, it seems that the game did have a date check (which is what we are using as well.) But if Batman did change their SecuROM (or if somehow my research is flawed or the FAQ on that site is incorrect!) then that would explain this situation.

This ties in to your third point, which is about the different standards. GFWL is not doing the online checking, so yes, there are only SSA and non-SSA keys.

So what is? Either SecuRom is responsible for the activation limit or GFWL is.

[Connect]

GFWL is not doing the online checking, so yes, there are only SSA and non-SSA keys.

If GFWL is NOT doing the online checking, as you say, then it means that SecuROM is doing it. Which means

LIE #4: "We are using SecuROM only as a disc check method for the retail copy of BioShock 2. That is it's only use." - So SecuROM *is* doing much more than just the simple disc check you tried to imply. It's not so innocent after all, now is it?

It seems to me that you are trying to confuse the users with the informations. It's a well known tactic of deception. If you can't fool the people then at least confuse them so everyone understands what they want and turn them agains each other.

[2K Elizabeth]

whatever it is,this is 2K's decision and we have to live with that.

I expected that the steam version would atleast have no such limits whatsoever and use the batman activation system(4 activations per month).It would have been perfect.

But anyways,the game has a lot of proetction now,but at the end of the day,if pirates tend to crack it the day its released and make it "activation free",that would be ridiculous.

We do use the same system as Batman for Steam - our GFWL set up is the exact same. The only difference is that our SecuROM on Steam doesn't have those activation limits.

[yogibbear]

It's time to bring some light over the LIES that are being spread by 2K employees in this forum:

LIE #1: "Scaling Back BioShock 2's DRM" - 2K is NOT scaling back ANY DRM. It is THE EXACT SAME DRM SCHEME that was presented a few days ago. NOTHING HAS CHANGED, thus it is a LIE.

LIE #2: "Many of you have used Batman: Arkham Asylum as an example to me, which uses the exact same Games for Windows Live guidelines as us" - BATMAN ARKHAM ASYLUM USES A DIFFERENT "guideline" because it does NOT require the user to be online EVER for either INSTALLING OR PLAYING THE GAME. Bioshock 2 requires user to go online AT LEAST ONCE for activation. One would have to be either RETARDED or IGNORANT to not realize this after so many users have posted this out, users who have tested their RETAIL copy of BATMAN and it DOES NOT REQUIRE AN INTERNET CONNECTION AT ANY POINT DURING AND/OR AFTER THE INSTALLATION. EVER! I don't think that 2K employees are retarded, thus the only explanation is ignorance.

LIE #3: "There are two types of GFWL setups: one using non-SSA-keys, which is what we have, and has a 15 install limit. The other option is an SSA-key, which we didn't want to use. These are the standards, and every game uses one or the other. Batman goes our route." - BLATANT LIE! There are at least 3 types of GFWL setups, one being the Batman one, meaning NO ONLINE ACTIVATION WHATSOEVER. If Batman has a different setup then it is clear that there are at least 3 and YOU ARE LYING TO THE CUSTOMERS! Well, another explanation is that the person who decided the DRM had no idea there is the 3rd method and got tricked by Microsoft to use their activation system. STOP PUTTING BATMAN IN THE SAME ROTTEN BOAT AS YOU, because BATMAN got things right and uses neither the SSA-key, neither the non-SSA-key. It simply works without an internet connection, a thing which your product DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT.

IN CONCLUSION:

BATMAN ARKHAM ASYLUM (RETAIL VERSION): NO ONLINE REQUIRED

BIOSHOCK 2 (RETAIL VERSION): ONLINE REQUIRED TO ACTIVATE THE GAME

This post is awesome! Totally agree.

I also see it as a lame "technicality" that you "claim you listened to complaints regarding securom with Bioshock 1" so now you've removed securom activations and given us GFWL activations instead, so we should be thankful? THANKFUL? Why would i be thankful of that? Dialing an activation server (no matter what it is called or which company) is exactly the same problem as before. Stop preaching like you've done something miraculous and we should start washing your feet.

[2K Elizabeth]

If GFWL is NOT doing the online checking, as you say, then it means that SecuROM is doing it. Which means

LIE #4: "We are using SecuROM only as a disc check method for the retail copy of BioShock 2. That is it's only use." - So SecuROM *is* doing much more than just the simple disc check you tried to imply. It's not so innocent after all, now is it?

It seems to me that you are trying to confuse the users with the informations. It's a well known tactic of deception. If you can't fool the people then at least confuse them so everyone understands what they want.

Connect -

I say this up front in my statement above. SecuROM is being used to check the executable and the date. I'm saying the same thing.

I am here, and continuing to reply to you guys, because if anyone is still confused, I'm happy to help clear up any remaining questions.

[Oppopji]

The zero day implementation is so someone can't get the game before launch and post videos and spoilers, because the game's plot is key and it would ruin the experience for everyone else. I know this can't be applied to console games, unfortunately, but we set a date and we hold everyone to it as strictly as we possibly can (and we want to know when a retailer violates it) becasue it's important to us.

Would it be possible to get a guarantee that at some stage a combined patch/offline installer will be released to allow offline installation+play? That would ease my concerns about long term playability/dependency on a third party to install & play.

As for Batman, I can tell you what I've researched online and installed personally - that's the best I can do. It seems that their SecuROM (from their FAQ) did have a date check as well, and when I installed the game offline without GFWL, they wouldn't let me save until I went online and made myself a profile (which I could then use offline.) If there's another way to do this, I'd be interested in the trick.

That must only apply to the digital download version then (or your information is incorrect) as I actually have the retail version of the game here & I even installed it on my notebook system earlier to double check: it did not ask to go online at any point. I just tested the date check by putting the year on my notebook system back to 2008; no complaints from either SecuROM or GFWL.

Also, when I installed the game earlier I got a popup from GFWL asking me to create a profile (as it was a fresh install + no profiles existed already). It allowed me to create an offline profile & play using saves without any issues. No need to go online.

[Void(null)]

Why is it this complicated to buy a Video Game?

It seems that 2K doesn't even rightly know whats going on, and is unable to answer questions about the exact nature of GFWL and how it will manage these "15 activations" and what exactly that means for the consumer.

A paying customer should not need a law degree to pay good money for a damn video game.

I still want to know how exactly GFWL will manage these activations and what constitutes as an activation.

This just further cements that we need some form of consumer watch dog to protect US from the Publishers while the Publishers thrash around destroying everything around them in an attempt to ward off the Pirates.

[2K Elizabeth]

So what is? Either SecuRom is responsible for the activation limit or GFWL is.

The activation limit is GFWL. If you've used it before, you know about online profiles, and playing games offline, and that is what the activation limits are tied to - that system.

SecuROM checks the executable and date, which is when you install, and when you go online. There's no installation limit about this - you can do this on as many machines as many times as you want.

[2K Elizabeth]

Why is it this complicated to buy a Video Game?

It seems that 2K doesn't even rightly know whats going on, and is unable to answer questions about the exact nature of GFWL and how it will manage these "15 activations" and what exactly that means for the consumer.

A paying customer should not need a law degree to pay good money for a damn video game.

I still want to know how exactly GFWL will manage these activations and what constitutes as an activation.

This just further cements that we need some form of consumer watch dog to protect US from the Publishers while the Publishers thrash around destroying everything around them in an attempt to ward off the Pirates.

An activation is a re-installation of the game. Games for Windows Live is standardized, so if you have played a game before with this set up, you will be used to what we are using.

[Connect]

Connect -

I say this up front in my statement above. SecuROM is being used to check the executable and the date. I'm saying the same thing.

I am here, and continuing to reply to you guys, because if anyone is still confused, I'm happy to help clear up any remaining questions.

So you have to be connected BOTH to the SecuROM server (meaning basically ONLINE AUTHENTICATION), and the GFW LIVE servers (for the 15 machine limit check).

In conclusion: We need to be online both for SecuROM (which checks the date) and GFW LIVE (for the 15 machine authentication). Is this statement true or false?

Well done, you truly have outdone yourselves. You should have put in Tages too just for good measure.

[hairbear31]

Is secuROM a MS mandate for using GFWL?

[2K Elizabeth]

Would it be possible to get a guarantee that at some stage a combined patch/offline installer will be released to allow offline installation+play? That would ease my concerns about long term playability/dependency on a third party to install & play.



That must only apply to the digital download version then (or your information is incorrect) as I actually have the retail version of the game here & I even installed it on my notebook system earlier to double check: it did not ask to go online at any point. I just tested the date check by putting the year on my notebook system back to 2008; no complaints from either SecuROM or GFWL.

Also, when I installed the game earlier I got a popup from GFWL asking me to create a profile (as it was a fresh install + no profiles existed already). It allowed me to create an offline profile & play using saves without any issues. No need to go online.

I'll definitely poke around more with this and see why my version of Batman didn't want me to make an offline profile. (It will be the same case for BioShock 2. If this is a GFWL feature, then we most certainly did not take it out. We are using their standard version.)

As for Batman, I got my info from here: https://support.securom.com/pop_batmanaa.html - as I said, I don't work for that company, and I want to try and confuse you guys *less* rather than *more*. I got a lot of emails, PMs, and comments in threads about liking that game's system, which is why I dug into it to find out what was in it.

I hope that helps clarify for you!

[2K Elizabeth]

So you have to be connected BOTH to the SecuROM server (meaning basically ONLINE AUTHENTICATION), and the GFW LIVE servers (for the 15 machine limit check).

In conclusion: We need to be online both for SecuROM (which checks the date) and GFW LIVE (for the 15 machine authentication). Is this statement true or false?

Well done, you truly have outdone yourselves. You should have put in Tages too just for good measure.

First, can you please not use bold red lettering? I'll get to your points without it, and we try not to use distracting text on the forums.

After that: You need to be online during installation, and after that, if you don't want to be online, you never have to again. That's the way it works.

[Connect]

But you still have evaded my question.

Is it true or not that BOTH GFW LIVE and SecuROM connect to their respective servers?

[2K Elizabeth]

But you still have evaded my question.

Is it true or not that BOTH GFW LIVE and SecuROM connect to their respective servers?

If you want to go online with GFWL, then yes, you have to get on your server. If you never want to make an online profile, you don't have to go online. But the game does have multiplayer, and if you want achievements, you will have to sign on (which means you go online) to upload them.

SecuROM checks one time, and only one time - when you install the game. and GFWL is entirely optional.

I've answered that a couple times, but I hope that's clear enough now.

[sp1ke]

@Connect,

from the looks of it,YES.But one time with secuROM.

and if you buy the steam version,3 authentication servers(steam pretty much does the better job than those two).

[zippy476]

The activation limit is GFWL. If you've used it before, you know about online profiles, and playing games offline, and that is what the activation limits are tied to - that system.

SecuROM checks the executable and date, which is when you install, and when you go online. There's no installation limit about this - you can do this on as many machines as many times as you want.

OK so what is the point of not having SecuROM activation limits? If you are going to have them with GFWL. I am guessing you knew GFWL only gives you a set number of activations. So really you are using both SecuROM and GFWL. SecuROM for a disk and .exe check and GFWL as an activation limiter. So really just masked the activation limiter because you knew people would freakout over the SecuROM activation limits. You didn't do us any favors at all. Except perhaps instead of 5 activations you gave us 15, And a crappy extra piece of software called GFWL. Honestly I would have rather had the steam interface with a 15 limit activation from SecuROM.

Now I get to run, Steam, Have SecuROM on my PC, And have GFWL. All while having to watch and manage my activations. But wait there is more. If I run out I have to wast my time and call M$ and if that doesn't work I have to jump through another hoop and contact 2k and wait until you guys get around to talking to M$.

So my question is how much is my time worth? Say I run out of activations, and I have to do all this calling around trying to get my activations back. How much is 2k willing to reimburse me for my time?

The correct answer btw isn't $0, So you come up with a number and if I like it I will buy the game.

[Connect]

GFWL is entirely optional.

It's not optional if you have to connect to the internet to use up one of the 15 GFW LIVE activations each time you install the game. It's more like mandatory.

[Void(null)]

An activation is a re-installation of the game. Games for Windows Live is standardized, so if you have played a game before with this set up, you will be used to what we are using.

I own Flatout: Ultimate Carnage, GTAIV, Fallout 3, DoW2 all of which use GFWL.

Every one of them came with a CD Key, I linked the CD Key to my GFWL ID and that was it.

Every time I reinstall my games from Steam, I use the same GFWL ID and GFWL never bothers me to reactivate any of these games, or tell me that I have run out of these mythic activations.

Are you saying this is how BioShock 2 will manage installs? Because that's not what it sounds like.

What it sounds like is that GFWL will work the same what that SecuRom works, limiting installs by machine, with "Machine" being a very broad term being "The same PC with a new stick of RAM" and this will somehow use up one of my Activations of BioShock 2.

I want it in plain, clear English, a point by point walk through of how GFWL will manage these activations... because quite frankly, after dealing with Publishers over the past 5 years involving DRM, all my good faith was used up long ago by EA... and Im not going to be fooled the same way again by 2K waving its hand in the air as a distraction.

I want to make this perfectly Clear, I am a long time customer of many 2K Games, BioShock, All the Civilizations, Borderlands, The Elder Scrolls, Jade Empire and Dungeon Siege to name a few... I want to BUY BioShock 2 because I know its going to be an amazing game, but after Borderlands and the DLC fiasco and the DRM controversy with the original BioShock (Which I did not buy until the install limits were removed) I want to know that 2K is going to look out for me as the consumer, and not screw me over in the process of trying to fight a war on Piracy that no major company has any ability to win, all in an attempt to pass a placebo onto its board members and stock holders.

To Quote Microsoft "The Pirates are our toughest competitor, they have one hell of a product at an unbeatable price."

Reasure me that 2K is not going to screw me over with Install Limits, forcing me to buy the game again at some point down the road... and tell me just exactly how GFWL is going to work with BioShock 2.

No Buzzwords, no corp speak... plain... English.

[zippy476]

It's not optional if you have to connect to the internet to use up one of the 15 GFW LIVE activations each time you install the game. It's more like mandatory.

Well there's a new question. How is GFWL optional?

You install the game, SecuROM connects to the internet and checks. Then you install GFWL and are FORCED to create an online profile and it connects and uses an activation. After that though you don't have to go online anymore.

And what about people in other countries that GFWL doesn't support how do they play or save their games?

[MTMA]

Hello all forum users, players, Bioshock fans, and complainers....

I am indeed new here, but I've been reading this forum in particular for quite some time.
With the pre-order of Bioshock 2 on Steam, the 'Bioshock series' forum became hell incarnate on the internet. There are dozens of threads complaining about DRM and GFWL... But I tought that as Steam usesrs seem to complain about almost anything, the official forums would be a little more organized... Was I wrong...

I have a few opinions to give on both the SecuROM and GFWL issues:

-About GFWL)
I live on Brazil, a country not supported by GFWL, yet I made my account using one famous work-over method and play both Fallout 3 and Dawn of War 2 without any problems.

I buy most of my games through Steam, as I find it an incredible service. I have not any issues with having to be online to play/save the game due to the fact that Steam NEEDS you to be online to play and requires a Stable internet connection to download the games. So peeple here who complain about having to be online on GFWL must not be referring to the Steam Release, as it NEEDS internet.

And for people who say that their internet is unstable... Please!!! I live on Brazil, yet my internet rarely (2-3 times every 5 months) stops working or is unstable. So how is it even possible that someone who lives on first-world countries have unstable internet?

The only issue I can think of GFWL is that if I DO run out of activations (comments on that later), I will have difficulties entering in contact with them to reset my installs.

- About the Activation Limit)
15 activations... I wonder, how many games have anyone here installed more than 15 times? Gosh, I have age of Mythology since 2003 and installed it 6 times? and I play to this day...

The only people who have to re-install a game 15 times are those who format their PC many and many times over... What (I think) is pretty rare.

Yes, it's annoying, but it's not something to kill about... If you somehow reached the limit and is on your 15th install, don't wait for your PC to be formatted again to call and ask for reset! Call immediatelly after you have used your last install!

- About SecuROM)
I really didn't have experience enough with SecuROM to say anything conclusive about it, but being just an exe/disk check, I don't know how it could harm anyone... Yes, it was a crap before... before

I played the first game, loved it. Absolutely, one of the best games I've ever played. I am awaiting eagerly for the second one. And I am not going to be stopped by some small things like this, nor will do a boycott because of it.
I just didn't pre-order it on Steam yet because I am waiting until Frebuary due to Credit Card Issues.

Also, don't discharge all your RAAAGE over 2KElizabeth, she's doing everything in her capabilitty to help us, solve some of these issues, and she has absolutely no fault for the decisions made or imposed by companies.

That's it...

[Connect]

I wonder, how many games have anyone here installed more than 15 times?

The only people who have to re-install a game 15 times are those who format their PC many and many times over... What (I think) is pretty rare.

Assumptions are the roots of all ****-ups. Don't "think" that others don't need it. Even if it had 999.999.999 activations it would still be wrong.

It's because of people like you, who companies have managed to convince to be controlled (AND BE HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!), that we are in such a situation. If no one would buy their game because of the DRM then they would have to adapt or risk bankrupcy.

[zippy476]

Hello all forum users, players, Bioshock fans, and complainers....

I am indeed new here, but I've been reading this forum in particular for quite some time.
With the pre-order of Bioshock 2 on Steam, the 'Bioshock series' forum became hell incarnate on the internet. There are dozens of threads complaining about DRM and GFWL... But I tought that as Steam usesrs seem to complain about almost anything, the official forums would be a little more organized... Was I wrong...

I have a few opinions to give on both the SecuROM and GFWL issues:

-About GFWL)
I live on Brazil, a country not supported by GFWL, yet I made my account using one famous work-over method and play both Fallout 3 and Dawn of War 2 without any problems.

I buy most of my games through Steam, as I find it an incredible service. I have not any issues with having to be online to play/save the game due to the fact that Steam NEEDS you to be online to play and requires a Stable internet connection to download the games. So peeple here who complain about having to be online on GFWL must not be referring to the Steam Release, as it NEEDS internet.

And for people who say that their internet is unstable... Please!!! I live on Brazil, yet my internet rarely (2-3 times every 5 months) stops working or is unstable. So how is it even possible that someone who lives on first-world countries have unstable internet?

The only issue I can think of GFWL is that if I DO run out of activations (comments on that later), I will have difficulties entering in contact with them to reset my installs.

- About the Activation Limit)
15 activations... I wonder, how many games have anyone here installed more than 15 times? Gosh, I have age of Mythology since 2003 and installed it 6 times? and I play to this day...

The only people who have to re-install a game 15 times are those who format their PC many and many times over... What (I think) is pretty rare.

Yes, it's annoying, but it's not something to kill about... If you somehow reached the limit and is on your 15th install, don't wait for your PC to be formatted again to call and ask for reset! Call immediatelly after you have used your last install!

- About SecuROM)
I really didn't have experience enough with SecuROM to say anything conclusive about it, but being just an exe/disk check, I don't know how it could harm anyone... Yes, it was a crap before... before

I played the first game, loved it. Absolutely, one of the best games I've ever played. I am awaiting eagerly for the second one. And I am not going to be stopped by some small things like this, nor will do a boycott because of it.
I just didn't pre-order it on Steam yet because I am waiting until Frebuary due to Credit Card Issues.

Also, don't discharge all your RAAAGE over 2KElizabeth, she's doing everything in her capabilitty to help us, solve some of these issues, and she has absolutely no fault for the decisions made or imposed by companies.

That's it...

Um you missed the point. If you buy something you shouldn't be limited in the number of uses. What if I feel like installing it and uninstalling it 30 times in one day? I bought the game I think I have a right to do it. Regardless of the reason.

Also everything is directed at her because she is the only one on the forum representing 2k. You want to get the dev's, the CEO, the person who is in charged of what type of DRM to use on here, Be assured our barrels would be swiveling in their direction. I give her props for having the balls to stick it out, But is this also not her job?

Again I asked for the name, number, and email of the 2k moron who came up with the idea of using this type of DRM (SecuROM and GFWL activation Limits). I have yet to receive the info.

[Oppopji]

I'll definitely poke around more with this and see why my version of Batman didn't want me to make an offline profile. (It will be the same case for BioShock 2. If this is a GFWL feature, then we most certainly did not take it out. We are using their standard version.)

As for Batman, I got my info from here: https://support.securom.com/pop_batmanaa.html - as I said, I don't work for that company, and I want to try and confuse you guys *less* rather than *more*. I got a lot of emails, PMs, and comments in threads about liking that game's system, which is why I dug into it to find out what was in it.

I hope that helps clarify for you!

I think those restrictions only apply to the digital download versions. I could try uninstalling & reinstalling B:AA after setting the date back to see if that makes any difference but even if it does make a difference then it's only an offline check (completely pointless as changing the system date is such a trivial task).

In any case, the install procedure for B:AA at least using the UK retail version definitely does not involve going online at any stage for any reason (unless you choose to use an online profile with GFWL). I posted a link earlier to a thread on Eidos' forums about the retail version's copy protection with someone from Eidos stating that retail versions would only use a disc check, which in my experience is 100% correct.

Edit: FYI, the system did not have GFWL installed before I installed B:AA nor was it installed previously & uninstalled; it was a completely fresh install so there was no chance of any trace of a previous install (or old GFWL profile) causing it to mess up. Also, the system was completely isolated from any network - no LAN or 'net access.

[FirestormXVI]

Connect, for the love of god stop using that huge, bold, red text. I'm surprised anyone is replying to you at all in a serious manner.

Don't forget GFWL has an activation limit.

and of course I agree that having SecuROm on steam is stupid.

I can live with 15 activations. I do understand that the game is using Games for Windows Live for a variety of functions and that is reason enough to include it. Also, I am more than willing to take that fairly liberal amount of activations for integration with my Xbox Live profile.

If it's like Fallout 3, Games for Windows Live is optional. People saved their game fine with an offline profile. It is of course required for multiplayer, for gaining achievements, and for communication with your Live friends list.

2K Elizabeth, could you please see if there's any way to remove SecuROM altogether from the Steam version of Bioshock 2 as there is already a date check in place with Steam? SecuROM is deterring some people from the game on Steam as they do not like having additional DRM technology on top of their Steam games. If it provides identical functionality to Steam, there seems to be little reason to include it.

[z3razerviper]

Why does 2k not want to use SSA. I just am curious?
And is the securom disk check now gone since its an securom online date validation?

[MTMA]

Also everything is directed at her because she is the only one on the forum representing 2k. You want to get the dev's, the CEO, the person who is in charged of what type of DRM to use on here, Be assured our barrels would be swiveling in their direction. I give her props for having the balls to stick it out, But is this also not her job?

Again I asked for the name, number, and email of the 2k moron who came up with the idea of using this type of DRM (SecuROM and GFWL activation Limits). I have yet to receive the info.

I understand... It's just that some people (Being new, I prefer not to reference anyone directly) are being aggressive on their responses... But many here also are asking politely to her what can or cannot be done. And with some weeks before release I think small changes still can be done to the game...

[Connect]

Also, I am more than willing to take that fairly liberal amount of activations

Liberal? Would 14 still be liberal? What about 10? Maybe 5? How about just 1? You see, you are not an authority to decide what is liberal for the customers and what isn't.

If it's like Fallout 3, Games for Windows Live is optional.

It's not at all like Fallout 3. 2K have screwed it up big time. You *need* it to activate the game (with the "liberal" 15 activations). So it is not optional at all. I have talked about what optional means to Elizabeth in my previous post but she doesn't want to answer. Silence is an aswer too.

By the way, speaking of 2K Elizabeth. You said just 2 days ago that "We are using SecuROM only as a disc check method for the retail copy of BioShock 2. That is it's only use." And then you make a topic called "Scaling Back BioShock 2's DRM". But inside it we have this statement: "SecuROM will be used only to verify the game’s executable and check the date". Checking the date is obviously done by connecting to an external server, as otherwise anyone would just modifiy the system date. So just exactly HOW is the DRM "scaled back" when SecuROM is doing *more* things than initially stated? Care to explain that?

[Void(null)]

As a side thought:

If I buy BioShock 2. I can only activate my game 15 times and have to prove to MicroSoft that I am a legitimate customer if I go over.

If I buy Mass Effect 2, I can reinstall the game as many times as I like and I will be given Free DLC for being a legitimate customer.

One is giving customers an incentive to buy the game, the other is treating its paying customers like criminals.

One of these company's is treating its legitimate customers wrong... and its a sad day when that company isn't EA.