A message about PC specs, Games for Windows Live, and SecuROM from Elizabeth

[z3razerviper]

The "activation limits" are a standard thing with Games for Windows Live. If you have ever played a game with them and used a non SSA-key for installation, you most likely used the exact same process as we have.

BioShock 2 doesn't have any SecuROM installation limits for the retail box. And again, I promised Steam details, and they are coming soon.

Elizabeth its that standard GFWL flaw I believe 2k could help correct. If a major publisher pushed microsoft for a revoke tool/unlimited activations they would listen. They have not been listening to the gamers that's for sure.

I am sorry to sound pushy but could you test the process we have described for batman with BS2 on a fresh PC just to be sure?

[mark_t50]

ok.

1). I'm confused at how this all work still, I've read this thread from the first post and I still have no idea what on earth is going on. My head hurts I think 2k need to take a timeout, gather a definitive list of information, and then come back and let us all know exactly how it works.

2). Ok, I'm prepared to look like the class thicko and ask the question, urmm what is an SSA key that keeps getting mentioned ?

[JubalHHarshaw]

DRM Information: SecuROM offers unlimited activations on up to 5 PCs.

This is the new info about act. lim. at steam. This UNLIMITED means nothing, since if you upgrade your machine, etc., you lose an activation the same. So, we still have a 5 activations limit at steam.

Also, not a word about online play for the countries not included at GFWL.

Are you addressing that or just avoiding the question?

[jamyskis]

I'm sorry but I feel there's been a lot of beating around the bush here, and I find it insulting how evasively this question has been approached, so I would appreciate it if someone from 2K would be courteous enough to answer the question simply and directly with a simple yes or no to the following questions:

Does the game have to connect to any kind of server, be it SecuROM, GFWL or 2K's own servers to authenticate the game in order to play single player BioShock 2?

If not, is the authentication discussed here solely for achievements and multiplayer?

[z3razerviper]

ok.

1). I'm confused at how this all work still, I've read this thread from the first post and I still have no idea what on earth is going on. My head hurts I think 2k need to take a timeout, gather a definitive list of information, and then come back and let us all know exactly how it works.

2). Ok, I'm prepared to look like the class thicko and ask the question, urmm what is an SSA key that keeps getting mentioned ?

A Games for windows live SSA key is a key that is permanently linked to your gamertag. Some new games use them the problem with them is they are linked to one and only one XBOX Live Gamer Tag and cant be changed. But they dont have activation limits so as long as your on the same gamertag your good. Non-ssa keys are limited in the number of times you can use them and once you use them up microsoft will replace it one and ONLY one time.

Personally I prefer SSA

[army123]

Elizabeth, please read this and forward this article to your supervisor,


It's total bull**** the PAYING CUSTOMERS have to install the ****ty bloatware when we PAY -- while the pirates have to install NONE of the GFWL or Securom:

http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/01/22...t-legitimately

[Mellifluous]

ok.

1). I'm confused at how this all work still, I've read this thread from the first post and I still have no idea what on earth is going on. My head hurts I think 2k need to take a timeout, gather a definitive list of information, and then come back and let us all know exactly how it works.

2). Ok, I'm prepared to look like the class thicko and ask the question, urmm what is an SSA key that keeps getting mentioned ?

http://www.microsoft.com/games/en-us...lwpublish.aspx

Personally I wouldn't buy SSA games.

I recently decided to abandon a 7 year old hotmail identity (basically one matures, no?). I needed to change my Games for Windows login too. Unfortunately this cannot be done by Games for Windows (I phoned them to check).

As a result, I created a new hotmail account with my real.name@hotmail, then a new Games for Windows account with this identity. I was able to login and play Fallout 3 and GTA 4 with this new Games for Windows account, even though they're associated with my old one. And that's how it should be. AFAIK, SSA would prevent that.

[mark_t50]

A Games for windows live SSA key is a key that is permanently linked to your gamertag. Some new games use them the problem with them is they are linked to one and only one XBOX Live Gamer Tag and cant be changed. But they dont have activation limits so as long as your on the same gamertag your good. Non-ssa keys are limited in the number of times you can use them and once you use them up microsoft will replace it one and ONLY one time.

Personally I prefer SSA

Thankyou I have to say that this solution sounds much better imho. Sounds more like most of the other steam games where it is just tied in with your steam account. Sounds like a much more customer friendly solution to me.

[z3razerviper]

http://www.microsoft.com/games/en-us...lwpublish.aspx

Personally I wouldn't buy SSA games.

I recently decided to abandon a 7 year old hotmail identity (basically one matures, no?). I needed to change my Games for Windows login too. Unfortunately this cannot be done by Games for Windows (I phoned them to check).

As a result, I created a new hotmail account with my real.name@hotmail, then a new Games for Windows account with this identity. I was able to login and play Fallout 3 and GTA 4 with this new Games for Windows account, even though they're associated with my old one. And that's how it should be. AFAIK, SSA would prevent that.

You can detach a gamertag from a liveid via an xbox console but not pc. If you have access to a friends xbox you will be able to do it. But fallout and gta4 have activation limits because they are not ssa. Also LiveIDs createed with Hotmail, liive.com cant have the email changed non ms hosted email addresses can so say you used a gmail, yahoo etc changing the associated email/liveid would have been easy.

PM me if you want me to look up how to do it

Hope that helps.

[hatrox]

Why do you guy's do this? I really want to know if you understand that you create more pirates this way. If people are going to pirate you cannot stop them. What you don't want to do is screw over paying costumers which you and other company's do over and over again making us jump through hoops.

Well Microsoft have bigger wallets than Valve, so they probably payed 2K to use their terrible software. That's the only reason I can come up with. Steam will always have better DRM capabilities than GFWL, and nothing could convince me otherwise. Using Steam is simply a pleasure for me and I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way. So what other possible reason would 2K have to choose GFWL, when the vast majority of population prefers Steam and quite a large number of them won't actually buy the game, while it's "infected" with GFWL. Even the fact that GFWL "works great with the multiplayer portion of the game" isn't enough reason to punish the PC gamers with this...thing...

[zippy476]

So in order to play this game if I use up my 15 activations I have to jump through another hoop and call MS (who doesn't even make the game) who if they want to can deny me.

This is how it is going to work. I am going to buy this game for $50 - $60, I will then be able to play this game for life. Installing it and uninstalling it for the rest of my life. Without having to call people or mess around with revoke tools and non sense anti pirating stuff that is a joke and you know it, That eventually you will end of taking it off like you did with the old one. Otherwise you can keep your game. There is plenty of other media out there.

The thing that upsets me is you know that once the game comes out enough people are going to complain you will end up having to take all this stuff off anyway. You did it with the last game. So why keep playing games? Just remove it now, or work on a patch that removes it once the game ships.

People hate SecuRom, Starforce and the rest. GFWL is annoying and has some BS activation limit.

Again why do I even want this game? I mean for all the hoops I have to jump through this game must be better then sex. In order to play it I have to take it out to dinner, take it to the movies, listen to it, make it laugh, show it my sensitive side.......Heck I should just take my money to the bunny ranch, at least I will feel better about using my $60 to get screwed over.

[Oppopji]

Is that how you did it for Batman?

It's the exact same thing.

B:AA works for me like this (just tested on my notebook system which is why this reply took so long):

• Insert disc
• Run the installer (installs B:AA then "additional software required to run it" i.e. PhysX/GFWL)
• Run the game (with disc in the drive)
• After the intro videos a GFWL popup appears giving me two choices: "Create New Profile" or "Use Existing LIVE Profile" (I created an offline profile)
• Play the game

At no point does it need to go online for anything except if I use an online profile - it didn't even ask for my GFWL key as I was using an offline profile.

Basically, there's no form of online authentication or activation required unless I want to use the online features. If this is the same as how BS2 works then I'm fine with it - could you confirm this for me please? I would like to be 100% certain about this

[2K Elizabeth]

DRM Information: SecuROM offers unlimited activations on up to 5 PCs.

This is the new info about act. lim. at steam. This UNLIMITED means nothing, since if you upgrade your machine, etc., you lose an activation the same. So, we still have a 5 activations limit at steam.

Also, not a word about online play for the countries not included at GFWL.

Are you addressing that or just avoiding the question?

This is not how our SecuROM works. At all. There is no machine limit, nor there is an install limit. It is actually unlimited. As in, no matter how much software you upgrade or if you revamp your OS every 2 months, you will not run in to any problems with SecuROM. Because there are no limits.

[army123]

This is not how our SecuROM works. At all. There is no machine limit, nor there is an install limit. It is actually unlimited. As in, no matter how much software you upgrade or if you revamp your OS every 2 months, you will not run in to any problems with SecuROM. Because there are no limits.

Then what's the point of even having Securom if there are no activation limits enforced?

Pirates don't need it, yet the paying customer is forced to use it.

http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/01/22...-legitimately/

[z3razerviper]

B:AA works for me like this (just tested on my notebook system which is why this reply took so long):

• Insert disc
• Run the installer (installs B:AA then "additional software required to run it" i.e. PhysX/GFWL)
• Run the game (with disc in the drive)
• After the intro videos a GFWL popup appears giving me two choices: "Create New Profile" or "Use Existing LIVE Profile" (I created an offline profile)
• Play the game

At no point does it need to go online for anything except if I use an online profile - it didn't even ask for my GFWL key as I was using an offline profile.

Basically, there's no form of online authentication or activation required unless I want to use the online features. If this is the same as how BS2 works then I'm fine with it - could you confirm this for me please? I would like to be 100% certain about this

Great description of the process Oppopji

Elizabeth can you confirm this on a machine that has never had BS2 installed else GFWL will find your first activation.

[zippy476]

This is not how our SecuROM works. At all. There is no machine limit, nor there is an install limit. It is actually unlimited. As in, no matter how much software you upgrade or if you revamp your OS every 2 months, you will not run in to any problems with SecuROM. Because there are no limits.

No but you will hit an install wall on GFWL, then you will have to go to M$ hat in hand and beg for them to reactivate it.

[mark_t50]

B:AA works for me like this (just tested on my notebook system which is why this reply took so long):

• Insert disc
• Run the installer (installs B:AA then "additional software required to run it" i.e. PhysX/GFWL)
• Run the game (with disc in the drive)
• After the intro videos a GFWL popup appears giving me two choices: "Create New Profile" or "Use Existing LIVE Profile" (I created an offline profile)
• Play the game

At no point does it need to go online for anything except if I use an online profile - it didn't even ask for my GFWL key as I was using an offline profile.

Basically, there's no form of online authentication or activation required unless I want to use the online features. If this is the same as how BS2 works then I'm fine with it - could you confirm this for me please? I would like to be 100% certain about this

lol, now do that 16 times, just be to sure

Seriously though, if BS2 worked like the above I'd be happy with that.

[2K Elizabeth]

Then what's the point of even having Securom if there are no activation limits enforced?

Pirates don't need it, yet the paying customer is forced to use it.

http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/01/22...-legitimately/

Essentially, what SecuROM is doing is checking to see if your disc is in the drive. It is not the same implementation that we used for the first game. It is much, much less.

[Santar]

B:AA works for me like this (just tested on my notebook system which is why this reply took so long):

• Insert disc
• Run the installer (installs B:AA then "additional software required to run it" i.e. PhysX/GFWL)
• Run the game (with disc in the drive)
• After the intro videos a GFWL popup appears giving me two choices: "Create New Profile" or "Use Existing LIVE Profile" (I created an offline profile)
• Play the game

At no point does it need to go online for anything except if I use an online profile - it didn't even ask for my GFWL key as I was using an offline profile.

Basically, there's no form of online authentication or activation required unless I want to use the online features. If this is the same as how BS2 works then I'm fine with it - could you confirm this for me please? I would like to be 100% certain about this

Just a reminder, in order to play any sort of DLC for G4wl games you HAVE to use the online live enabled gamertag. if you use a offline gamertag you can't play the DLC.

[z3razerviper]

Just a reminder, in order to play any sort of DLC for G4wl games you HAVE to use the online live enabled gamertag. if you use a offline gamertag you can't play the DLC.

I know its a bummer that's why I don't buy dlc for non-ssa GFWL games because of the activation limits on the main game. Maybe if a revoke to was available for non ssa games my opinion would change.....maybe if 2k could pressure MS into integrating a revoke tool into the GFWL client...

[FLAMINGPINECONE]

This is not how our SecuROM works. At all. There is no machine limit, nor there is an install limit. It is actually unlimited. As in, no matter how much software you upgrade or if you revamp your OS every 2 months, you will not run in to any problems with SecuROM. Because there are no limits.

What he is saying is that it's still probably 5 activation limits. It's all the same, you just put 'unlimited' in front of it to make us feel better. What does that even MEAN? It's still considering your PC as it is and if you upgrade your hardware, say a new graphics card or your Windows box crashes and you have to reinstall Windows, it still consider it a new PC and you still lose that activation, am I correct?

Also, is it 5 activations or 15? As I understand it we have 5 on SecuROM (which is only supposed to be a disc check method...right?) thus negating the 15 we got on GFW-L resulting in your legitimate customers being under not ONE deal breaking obtrustive DRM method but TWO?

You know, I loved the first game enough to endure one ****ty DRM. But two? Get rid of SecuROM at LEAST and I will buy this game. I've never had a problem with GFW-L. It's SecuROM that will break this deal for me and many others who want to buy your game.

[Crezth]

No but you will hit an install wall on GFWL, then you will have to go to M$ hat in hand and beg for them to reactivate it.

Earlier, 2K Elizabeth said that if (for whatever reason) Microsoft doesn't renew your activation limits, you can contact her and she'll fix it.

You have to be a crazy patient person to work in PR, Christ Almighty...

pages 1-40

SecuROM does not have anything to do with activating your game. The only activation limit is with GFWL, which is 15 activations that can be renewed. SecuROM does not have a 5-activation limit. SecuROM has no limits. SecuROM does not activate your game.

[zippy476]

Earlier, 2K Elizabeth said that if (for whatever reason) Microsoft doesn't renew your activation limits, you can contact her and she'll fix it.

You have to be a crazy patient person to work in PR, Christ Almighty...



SecuROM does not have anything to do with activating your game. The only activation limit is with GFWL, which is 15 activations that can be renewed. SecuROM does not have a 5-activation limit. SecuROM has no limits. SecuROM does not activate your game.

You are missing the point. I shouldn't have to call anyone. Once I buy the game it should work period.

I mean I know we are PC gamers and not the majority, but could you imagine what would happen if something like this happened on 360?

Why have SecuRom on steam? Why have SecuRom at all when people just use no-dvd cracks.

Why does a paying customer have to jump through a hoop to get a game reactivated. Or have to use crapware like SecuRom and a pirate gets to have a clean install without hassle? It is true about nice people finishing last. Seems like the people who always do the right thing are always the ones getting screwed.

[Crezth]

You are missing the point. I shouldn't have to call anyone. Once I buy the game it should work period.

I mean I know we are PC gamers and not the majority, but could you imagine what would happen if something like this happened on 360?

Why have SecuRom on steam? Why have SecuRom at all when people just use no-dvd cracks.

Why does a paying customer have to jump through a hoop to get a game reactivated. Or have to use crapware like SecuRom and a pirate gets to have a clean install without hassle? It is true about nice people finishing last. Seems like the people who always do the right thing are always the ones getting screwed.

Should is now divorced from what is, if reality is any indication. I agree with you. But roasting 2K Elizabeth and spreading lies is NOT the way to get your problems addressed.

For instance, SecuROM is not on Steam. Elizabeth said as much. It's a disk-check utility for the retail version of Rapture Adventures 2.

Why does the paying customer jump through hoops? Japester gave one explanation for why, earlier on. You're going in circles, I hope you know.

[hairbear31]

so secuROM is only for disk check on retail, so it does nothing with BS2 on steam, but does it still install secuROM on my computer anyway?

[FtRapture]

You are missing the point. I shouldn't have to call anyone. Once I buy the game it should work period.

I know it is frustrating; however really it comes down to whether or not you feel you should have to.. that's the way it is on many PC games.

If Xbox games ever became as widely stolen as PC games I am sure we would be headed down that same road.

[Purple44]

A Games for windows live SSA key is a key that is permanently linked to your gamertag. Some new games use them the problem with them is they are linked to one and only one XBOX Live Gamer Tag and cant be changed. But they dont have activation limits so as long as your on the same gamertag your good. Non-ssa keys are limited in the number of times you can use them and once you use them up microsoft will replace it one and ONLY one time.

Personally I prefer SSA

Thank for explaining SSA and non-SSA. I was wanting to know this information too.

SSA would work find if live in one the 26 supported GFWL countries, but if live in one the over 166 countries not supported by GFWL, you could get rob of your $40-$70 if you wanted to race online with DIRT 2 and did not know to lie when setting up a new LIVE ID:

Cannot play online with Live Account. Possibly unrecoverable key?

Hello guys at Steam,

I haven't been a steam player for too long and this is my first post here at the forums.

This is my problem:

Last week I bought a Radeon 5850 and with it I got a coupon to download and play Dirt 2 via Steam. I entered the key onto my profile, downloaded and installed the game. When it ran, a screen popped up requesting a Windows Live login. I had never used it. All I knew about it was that Live was the multiplayer component of the Xbox360, but never had I tested it on the PC.

As it was requesting a Live ID, I typed in my hotmail login and password. On the next screen I was prompted to insert the game CD Key and I did so.

After that, it started some sort of validation process and a message came up telling me that Live was not supported on my region and/or with my login.

I live in Brazil where the consoles and hardware from Microsoft are supported, but - as I discovered in the most terrible way - Live is not.

I googled the fore-mentioned problem and discovered that everyone, from countries where this service is not officially supported, creates an account with a US address and so they are able to play.

I also tried doing the same, but now when I try and register, it tells me that the CD Key I am inserting is already attached to another Live account, which, I cannot access.

I am sorry for the harsh words, but is utterly ridiculous. How can Steam sell a game world-wide, which is NOT world-wide supported? How come there are absolutely not warnings that this, which has happened to me, could happen?

I have possibly lost my serial number because of the absolute lack of care and interest from both parts, Steam sells a game that does not work world-wide which uses a service from Microsoft that doesn't work world-wide either.

It simply makes you fell worthless. You are supporting the work of developers by using an original game and you get this? It's simply appalling.

Is there a way for steam to cancel this possibly "lost" serial and send me another one? I have the original card with the serial and I can provide them with a Scan or picture of it. It's just too sad to be in a situation like that when no warning or hadsup has been given.

I hope this can be solved.

Thank you beforehand for any help.

Best regards,
Henrique

************************************************


For a SSA key to work well with all players, Microsoft world need to stop blocking players from unsupported countries from going online. Microsoft could easily do this by just warning players from unsupported countries that there will be no GFWL tech support and they will not be able to download DLCs, but they will be allow to race\shoot\play online.

Just like they can if they know to lie when setting up a new LIVE ID.

[FLAMINGPINECONE]

From Steam: DRM Information: SecuROM offers unlimited activations on up to 5 PCs.

Off Steam, still up there. Also the retail box apparently has 5 SecuROM activations listed on it.

I understand 2k Elizabeth said it was just a disc check method however she has just recently more or less admitted in the thread that SecuROM is used for more than just 'disc check'

There is no machine limit, nor there is an install limit. It is actually unlimited. As in, no matter how much software you upgrade or if you revamp your OS every 2 months, you will not run in to any problems with SecuROM. Because there are no limits.

But...wasnt it JUST FOR DISC CHECK? HMMM?

I really want to trust what she is saying but I'm getting conflicting information from her which doesn't make sense Why would they pay money to license SecuROM for each box they sell when they could just as easily grab a programmer to make a quicker easier disc check for them? It doesnt make sense they would put SecuROM on this game just for that when there were ENDLESS complaints of it on Bioshock 1 and will cost them prolifically more money here...for a disc check. Right. I would be more trusting if they hadn't of screwed us over before on Bioshock 1 (a problem we just recently got solved 2 years after the fact) and if they trusted us enough to leave it to just ONE DRMs, not two.

Just please tell me the Steam version doesnt have SecuROM. I will be happy to buy it off there if that promise is made. But I will not buy a game loaded with 2 horrible DRMs.

[zippy476]

Should is now divorced from what is, if reality is any indication. I agree with you. But roasting 2K Elizabeth and spreading lies is NOT the way to get your problems addressed.

For instance, SecuROM is not on Steam. Elizabeth said as much. It's a disk-check utility for the retail version of Rapture Adventures 2.

Why does the paying customer jump through hoops? Japester gave one explanation for why, earlier on. You're going in circles, I hope you know.

Spreading lies? I have yet to hear anything about the steam version so how do you know what is on it? All I heard was that the pre order info was wrong and she is gathering info on it the steam version now.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/35010/

Buy Batman: Arkham Asylum

3rd-party DRM: SecuROM™
4 per month machine activation limit

I want to make sure we don't get stuff like this. If you get the steam version why not just use steam? For DRM and MP. The disc version can have SecuRom disk check (easily bypassed) and GFWL.

I honestly don't care what Japester thinks is the reason unless he works for the company. I want to hear it from the company's mouth as to why we have to jump through hoops.

[FLAMINGPINECONE]

I know it is frustrating; however really it comes down to whether or not you feel you should have to.. that's the way it is on many PC games.

If Xbox games ever became as widely stolen as PC games I am sure we would be headed down that same road.

The sick thing is I've seen more modded Xbox 360's than stolen PC games. Just harder to do.

Also, why should the legitimate gamers be punished for the actions of the pirates? It's like selling me a Ford Taurus that can only be driven so much in so many places and if you have an accident or want to drive in a different state you have to renew your proof of ownership because Ford Tauruses are tops on the most stolen list. OH get this! You only get to renew this ownership so many times and if you run out then you car get towed. Tough luck, my legitimate purchase is being taken away because obviously its a Ford Taurus and its perfectly clear I stole it.

Anyway have fun playing Bioshock 2 on your Xbox. Glad you have a console where people trust you. Sucks to be me because I have a PC and people just happen to like to steal on my platform.

[Crezth]

Spreading lies? I have yet to hear anything about the steam version so how do you know what is on it? All I heard was that the pre order info was wrong and she is gathering info on it the steam version now.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/35010/

All things which 2K Elizabeth has discredited and is currently doing additional research on. You might not be spreading lies, but you're certainly spreading rumors, with very little information which is stand-on-its-own verifiable.

I want to make sure we don't get stuff like this. If you get the steam version why not just use steam? For DRM and MP. The disc version can have SecuRom disk check (easily bypassed) and GFWL.

Steam MP is a complex affair, you know. Just saying. It'd be awkward for 2K to shoehorn in a Steam MP for Steam users as well as the GFWL MP for retail consumers.

I honestly don't care what Japester thinks is the reason unless he works for the company. I want to hear it from the company's mouth as to why we have to jump through hoops.

And you're hearing it, that's why 2K Elizabeth is here. So if you want to hear stuff from the company, would you kindly bother reading her replies?

Off Steam, still up there. Also the retail box apparently has 5 SecuROM activations listed on it.

AFAIK, according to Elizabeth, no SecuROM on Steam. Yes, it still hasn't been addressed. They're working on it.

As for the box, I don't know. But she said SecuROM doesn't do any activating. Since she is representing the company I'd say that is pretty trustworthy information.


But if we choose not to believe anything she says, we might as well hole up in our respective basements for the end is nigh, and nobody shall convince us otherwise.

[LavaGoblin]

SecuROM == NO SALE!!!! I don't care why or how you are using it.

-LG

[Crezth]

The sick thing is I've seen more modded Xbox 360's than stolen PC games. Just harder to do.

No you haven't.

Also, why should the legitimate gamers be punished for the actions of the pirates? It's like selling me a Ford Taurus that can only be driven so much in so many places and if you have an accident or want to drive in a different state you have to renew your proof of ownership because Ford Tauruses are tops on the most stolen list. OH get this! You only get to renew this ownership so many times and if you run out then you car get towed. Tough luck, my legitimate purchase is being taken away because obviously its a Ford Taurus and its perfectly clear I stole it.

This sort of thing does happen, actually, and is usually the result of racial profiling. By and by a far more critical issue than precious video games.

Anyway have fun playing Bioshock 2 on your Xbox. Glad you have a console where people trust you. Sucks to be me because I have a PC and people just happen to like to steal on my platform.

I'm a PC gamer, thank you very much. That said, it is pretty annoying, but from what I've heard GFWL isn't even that bad.

[FLAMINGPINECONE]

I wanna trust her. I do. But when there is a major contradiction within just the information she is providing here alone I'm left to wonder. If she comes in here and says "Steam is SecuROM free" I will believe her and be happy to go preorder it there.

But so far she hasn't said that outright. So I have no choice but to question her.

[zippy476]

The thing is even if SecuRom is only for disc checks you still have an activation limit because of GFWL. I mean how man people even knew GFWL had an activation limit This was the first time I had heard about it. It seems like a dirty little secret.

I always thought it was just a way to get the xbox live interface on the PC. With achievements and friends lists.

It sucks that games require you to download something you don't want in order to either play or save your game. And on top of that it has a hidden activation limit. Does it do this for all GFWL games?

[Crezth]

I wanna trust her. I do. But when there is a major contradiction within just the information she is providing here alone I'm left to wonder. If she comes in here and says "Steam is SecuROM free" I will believe her and be happy to go preorder it there.

But so far she hasn't said that outright. So I have no choice but to question her.

Because she's still researching the subject. That is to say, nothing is solid at this point. Nothing. So fearmongering at this point is beating a dead horse, a dead horse which may or may not actually exist.

The thing is even if SecuRom is only for disc checks you still have an activation limit because of GFWL. I mean how man people even knew GFWL had an activation limit This was the first time I had heard about it. It seems like a dirty little secret.

Nobody knew. You're right, it's rather disingenuous of 2K. At least they're doing some damage control.

I always thought it was just a way to get the xbox live interface on the PC. With achievements and friends lists.

In a sense, it is. At this point we don't know what kind of model they have in mind for it, but it's a safe bet they won't start charging. They don't have enough leverage (if user outrage doesn't make that apparent) to do so, and Steam is a free and mighty competitor to such a business practice.

It sucks that games require you to download something you don't want in order to either play or save your game. And on top of that it has a hidden activation limit. Does it do this for all GFWL games?

I guess but it's still better than buying an XBox that breaks frequently and has inferior graphics and controls (no hate meant here; I like the XBox but it's not for me).

Also, Elizabeth said that you don't have to be online to save, if that's anything. You do still need the damn program, and it seems to me that is an irreversibly sad truth.

[The_KFD_Case]

Bioshock on steam right now only uses steam stuff. Why wouldn't Bioshock 2 only use steam?

http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/01/22...-legitimately/

Why do you guy's do this? I really want to know if you understand that you create more pirates this way. If people are going to pirate you cannot stop them. What you don't want to do is screw over paying costumers which you and other company's do over and over again making us jump through hoops.

What I would suggest is put together a team, Go on the internet pirate your games. See how easy it is and then say to yourselves "man everything we do to prevent pirating doesn't work, maybe we should find a way to take care of our paying costumers better".

Again your stuff doesn't stop pirates. You only make it more of a hassle for real costumers. Pirates actually have a better experience with your games. Take that to the people who make decisions.

This.

Forget about all the corporate waffle and platitudes. The above succinctly encapsulates what a lot of customers feel. We want to buy your products! Please give us a good reason to throw money your way so that you can get what you want (i.e. money) and we can get what we want (i.e. a game that just works out of the box without any hassle). It really is that simple.

[FLAMINGPINECONE]

I'm down like a clown man.i think i've expressed my concerns over a product I'm buying and sorry if i came off as an ass about the 360 thing. for all my complaints about PC gamers getting the short end of the stick the response i typically hear is "Get a 360" which...is no help. i really want to buy this game because its one of the first games in a long time to drop on PC with it's respective console release and I really wanna support it.

also most of my friends are 360 addicts, two of which own modded xboxes. neither steal games. one was banned for it so i guess justice was served.

[zippy476]

All things which 2K Elizabeth has discredited and is currently doing additional research on. You might not be spreading lies, but you're certainly spreading rumors, with very little information which is stand-on-its-own verifiable.



Steam MP is a complex affair, you know. Just saying. It'd be awkward for 2K to shoehorn in a Steam MP for Steam users as well as the GFWL MP for retail consumers.



And you're hearing it, that's why 2K Elizabeth is here. So if you want to hear stuff from the company, would you kindly bother reading her replies?



AFAIK, according to Elizabeth, no SecuROM on Steam. Yes, it still hasn't been addressed. They're working on it.

As for the box, I don't know. But she said SecuROM doesn't do any activating. Since she is representing the company I'd say that is pretty trustworthy information.


But if we choose not to believe anything she says, we might as well hole up in our respective basements for the end is nigh, and nobody shall convince us otherwise.

Last time I heard she was still checking on the steam situation. I have read everything she has written and most of it is about SecuRom on the RETAIL version. Last thing she said about steam was that she is still gathering info and will post it ASAP.

And when did she address why they are screwing people over with activation limits and SecuRom. About GFWL all she said was why they are using it and that she will look into getting more activation.

So while she has stated SecuRom on the RETAIL version is disc check only, It honestly doesn't matter because GFWL has an activation limit and if you run out you have to call and beg for your key back and if that doesn't work you have to call her and tell here what is going on. What happens 10 years down the road. I know this was already asked and she said 2k has put things in place to insure that it will still be usable if these companys go away or stop support the software. But my point is why do we have to go through all this anyway.

Way does GFWL have an activation limit, and why is 2k supporting that? And why is there a disc check when its easily bypassed?

Again pirates have to deal with none of this and paying customers have to deal with all of it.

Sorry that 2k and Liz have to bare the brunt of the whole DRM fight. 2k isn't the only company at fault, But right now they are the ones in the spot light.

[Crezth]

I'm down like a clown man.i think i've expressed my concerns over a product I'm buying and sorry if i came off as an ass about the 360 thing. for all my complaints about PC gamers getting the short end of the stick the response i typically hear is "Get a 360" which...is no help. i really want to buy this game because its one of the first games in a long time to drop on PC with it's respective console release and I really wanna support it.

also most of my friends are 360 addicts, two of which own modded xboxes. neither steal games. one was banned for it so i guess justice was served.

You said it well. Those people saying "get a 360" won't convince me, however, for reasons I'm sure you're intimately acquainted with.

If you really want to effect policy change, you've done it. I'm sure Elizabeth is now well aware of the outrage and will take it to her friends in the business. If you want to raise more cain, go complain to Microsoft about GFWL. Hey, it worked for Vista.

Last time I heard she was still checking on the steam situation. I have read everything she has written and most of it is about SecuRom on the RETAIL version. Last thing she said about steam was that she is still gathering info and will post it ASAP.

Yes, so be patient. There will still be time to pre-order it when all the cards are on the table.

And when did she address why they are screwing people over with activation limits and SecuRom. About GFWL all she said was why they are using it and that she will look into getting more activation.

Yes, she said Microsoft imposed the activation limit, and that using GFWL worked for the team very well. Remember, this is 2K Marin's first time doing multiplayer. It probably looked good to them to package it all succinctly, possibly because Microsoft makes GFWL look very attractive. For all we know, GFWL might to an excellent job delivering the game to PC users. The only difference between GFWL and Steam is one is better than the other.

So while she has stated SecuRom on the RETAIL version is disc check only, It honestly doesn't matter because GFWL has an activation limit and if you run out you have to call and beg for your key back and if that doesn't work you have to call her and tell here what is going on. What happens 10 years down the road. I know this was already asked and she said 2k has put things in place to insure that it will still be usable if these companys go away or stop support the software. But my point is why do we have to go through all this anyway.

Please, no begging will be involved. Liz is laying her own head down on the line for you. She already said she, personally, will get involved in activation issues, and said 2K has plans to keep BioShock 2 supported effectively "forever."

Way does GFWL have an activation limit, and why is 2k supporting that? And why is there a disc check when its easily bypassed?

You know why GFWL has the limit, and you know why 2K went with it. And the disc check is a pretty standard part of DRM.

Again pirates have to deal with none of this and paying customers have to deal with all of it.

Pirates actually have to go to the trouble of cracking the damn thing. As was said earlier, most pirates aren't patient enough to wait for the cracks and purchase anyway. That's what DRM deals with. True, however, pirates who get the cracks are set to go (minus multiplayer) and often consumers deal with heavy collateral damage. I'd say "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs" but this is really several thousand eggs being broken, and one really does wonder if the omelette is worth it.

Sorry that 2k and Liz have to bare the brunt of the whole DRM fight. 2k isn't the only company at fault, But right now they are the ones in the spot light.

When you get right down to it, a company wants to please you. That is all it wants to do. The decision regarding non SSA-keys, for instance, was made with the consumer's well-being in mind, even though some disagree with it.