So basically GFWL downloadable content is a mess? Can someone else verify this from experience? Has your computer ever messed up or ran slower because of GFWL? Or are you just upset over the Downloadable content problems?Originally Posted by Nytewulfe
This just keeps getting worse and worse for Pc players. It's no wonder we are slowly becomming extinct!
1) You WILL be able to play singleplayer by using an offline GFWL account, but you won't be able to play multiplayer, or receive achievements.
And if you go over your 15 installs, your screwed.....well at least from what I've heard.
I'm upset over how difficult it was to make work. When I tried to use it for Fallout 3, the entire website was one of the most useless I've ever seen with a dodgy interface, and absolutely no information what-so-ever on how to use the content once I'd purchased and downloaded it.
The computer itself has never had any trouble with it as the only use I had for it was when I was using the web interface to make my purchase, and download what I'd purchased.
Fallout 3, the game, has a built-in interface to GFWL, but it didn't seem to work. I'm not certain whether that is the games fault, the services fault or my fault because I didn't know how to make it work (reference my point about lack of documentation). I've steadfastly avoided it ever since. Fallout 3 was the only time I'd every been exposed to, or tried to use GFWL. Once was enough.
It was so bad, that I'm loathe to ever try it again. It is possible that it has been improved since. I might check, because Bioshock was so good, but I think I'll play through Mass Effect 2 first... No hoops to jump through there.
Maybe by then these folks will come to their senses and I won't even have to deal with it.
One can hope right?
Last edited by Nytewulfe; 01-21-2010 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Fixing typos...
One word GFWL xbox live acheivments oh yes
Dear Elizabeth
There is no GFWL in poland. This means that I must pay full price for product that dosent have full funcionality. I wont buy Bioshock 2 beacuse of it. I hope that other customers from (in MS opinion) 3rd world countries wont buy it either.
Regards
Tomasz Stańczak
Having expressed my displeasure on another gaming website where a poster provided a link to this thread, I've decided to register simply to inform you, 2K, that due to the excessive measures you have taken with "Bioshock 2" I will not be purchasing it for the PC. Furthermore, I also won't be purchasing it for the Xbox 360 nor any other platform either. I don't believe in rewarding corporations for making poor decisions that make their targeted customer group jump through more hoops, and possibly causes more grief to them, than an illegal pirated version might do.
You don't have to worry; I don't pirate games since I have more than an ample amount of disposable income and generally have little problem with paying a perceived fair price for a fully functional product that doesn't require me to visit X amounts of websites for guidance carried out by private net citizens whom do a better job than the official "Customer Support" people. If commercially successful games such as "Fallout 3" and "Dragon Age: Origins" (soon to be followed by "Mass Effect 2" by all expectations,) manage to get by with a simple disc check then please give me a good reason why I should give 2K a pass on using non-user friendly methods? Please note that any comments about "WAAAH! Piracy!, etc." are not sufficient because quite frankly that is not my problem as a potential customer. It's yours. Sadly it appears that 2K continues to insist on focusing on the pirates (whom have repeatedly demonstrated their ability to beat developers and publishers at their own software games,) at the cost of the paying customers. Call me unorthodox but I really don't care to pay for being treated poorly.
It seems 2K has learned little to nothing from the previous "Bioshock 1" debacle. A pity. "Bioshock 2" looks promising but I'll likely never know from personal experience as I value my peace of mind and my PC - which is my property, not yours! - too much to subject either to the insane anti-piracy methods you have decided to include in "Bioshock 2".
There's a lot of talk about piracy in this thread. My impression of the current state of DRM in the PC games industry - with limited activations becoming more common - is that the main purpose is to squash the used games market. Limiting piracy appears to be of secondary importance.
DRM is rarely effective in preventing piracy, but it can stop the reselling of used games very efficiently: With a limited number of activations the resale value of a game quickly falls to zero.
Despite this, the game publishers keep rallying under The Righteous Banner of Piracy Prevention. It is easier to make people sympathize with the goal of stopping piracy.
I disapprove of this trend, even though I'm not personally interested in purchasing used games. Activation-based DRM will make my games useless when the activations run out or when authentication servers are shut down, whichever comes first. I often buy or replay old games, even ten or more years after the release date, so this is an issue to me.
It is argued that legitimate owners can simply call a support service to reset the activation limit; this does not work in all cases however. Most such services require some sort of proof of purchase - if you lack proof, if your documentation is deemed insufficient, or if the support person simply does not like you, you won't be able to play your game.
I realize that I might be preaching to the choir here, but I felt like explaining my point of view.
Last edited by osterman; 01-21-2010 at 11:48 PM.
I have pre-ordered it, and I live in a non-GFWL country. I'll wait until the game is released, and IF I don't get the full functionality of the game (I don't care how), I'll request a refund and consider pirating the game (I know I shouldn't, but I'm saying this out loud). One way or the other I will get to play BioShock 2. I'll let 2K choose which.
Last edited by hatrox; 01-22-2010 at 12:33 AM.
So...45 pages and the message is clear "your pleas are falling on deaf ears, we don't care"
That's a pretty lame attitude to take, a lot of purchases are resting on the decision to remove the need for GFWL activation.
I agree, a lot of it is probably to do with killing used games. There are so many reasons why this is a bad idea...possible inability to play old games you've paid for, inability to pick old games up in charity/thrift shops...inability to trade in an old game to buy a new one...
However, if publishers are trying to target impatient pirates who will buy a game if it hasn't been leaked, there may be a point there.
But this doesn't explain why publishers don't patch out the DRM or make it better once the zero day piracy window has closed. Not doing so is disrespectful to people who've bought the game. I've posted a couple of times, and emailed Take 2 support, that with the impending release of BS2 NOW would be a good time to patch out the DRM of BS1.
Will it happen? Hmm.
Like many others I have just registered on this forum to file my displeasure with Bioshock 2 including Securom and GFWL, and to inform 2k Games that I am no longer planning to purchase Bioshock 2.
I have been a PC gamer for over 20 years with a huge collection of purchased PC games and as I loved Bioshock, I was looking forward to adding Bioshock 2 to my collection.
However, the combination of Securom and GFWL has regrettably made me decide to skip purchasing this game.
I made a decision last year to avoid all games with GFWL due to bad experiences with the "service". Smilarly, problems with Securom has made me cautious of buying Securom enabled games.
As mentioned before, I will not be buying Bioshock 2 unless of course you bring out a Steam version which does not use Securom or GFWL.
2K Elizabeth, thank you for all your efforts in liaising between us, the customers and 2K Games, and we all look forward to any of your updates. Please note, our frustrations are not with you, but with the decisions in limiting the usability of what promised to be a great game.
Last edited by Mar^ith; 01-22-2010 at 01:08 AM.
This is another lost sale here if the Steam version contains Securom or activation limits. GFWL is also total BS. I will not buy Bioshock 2 if it contains 3rd-party DRM or activation limits.
The problem is that it's probably too late to change anything anyway. Disclosing this information just weeks prior to release means that no matter how upset (potential) customers are, the decisions have already been made. Pity.
You are probably right. Operations dealing with products - especially products that have taken years to develop - entail logistics that do not just turn on a dime. That said, 2K made this decision - whether recently or not - and it is hard to imagine that after the spectacular fallout resulting from their first "Bioshock" outing, that they aren't aware of at least some of the issues here. It is also equally hard to imagine that they weren't aware of the possibility of this sort of public outcry.
Personally I'm a bit insulted by what I perceive to be a patronizing tone (i.e. "Oh it's going to be a-okay! We are doing this for YOUR benefit and the service is ever so much improved now and doesn't have any limited activations...Oh except for the first 15 activations, but they are still limitless since you can call up MS or whomever and ask them nicely to reset them", etc.) Excuse me? What sort of country idiot do they take me for? I recognize corporate lala speech when I encounter it. But hey, if 2K want to play hardball then I'm game. Until they stand down and follow the recent example of Zenimax/Bethesda with "Fallout 3" and EA/BioWare with "Dragon Age: Origins" and the upcoming "Mass Effect 2" I won't buy any games on any of the gaming platforms that are released or developed by 2K. Time is on my side in this instance, 'cause you see I don't need their games to survive. My livelihood isn't dependent on how well their games sell. Their livelihoods on the other hand are.
Hi 2k Liz, is there an official communications channel asides from this where I can get someone from 2k that actually makes decisions regarding DRM, activations etc. etc. on their products to listen to my complaints regarding this ATROCIOUS decision regarding DRM?
Activation limits = fail.
Securom = fail.
GFWL = just kill me now please
Combining it all together for your paying customers to enjoy the experience of playing the sequel to one of the most atmospheric and amazing single player experiences of the last few years = priceless draconian mockery.
Last edited by yogibbear; 01-22-2010 at 03:49 AM.
What really makes me upset in this entire ordeal is the fact that 2k offers pre-purchase of a game BEFORE disclosing this information. That's a dishonest approach and hopefully, atleast some guy (or girl) in charge will take note of how their fanbase has reacted to this b/s and don't do the same mistake with their next release.
Prosecuted for... what exactly? Doing with their property as they see fit (modding the Xbox)? Hold on a minute! I thought that once you bought something you could do whatever you wanted with it!
Kids these days.
GFWL could be patched out if 2k really wanted to and they could tell microsoft to allow UNLIMITED activations or lose them as a customer for all future games. If you really want to make a difference with GFWL call microsoft and voice your displeasure with their activation limits. If they got hundreds of calls a day for a week or so complaining about the issue it would be noticed. One cause it costs them money and two for its typically thought that for every customer that calls 100 are annoyed.
US phone 1-877-274-4349
See link for other countries
http://www.microsoft.com/games/en-US...ctsupport.aspx
Well guess what? You are wrong. Jurisdiction in a lot of countries (such as Sweden where I'm from) has legislation that prohibits attempts to circumvent DRM.
You miss the point modding your console is legal stealing software is not. That being said I dont like pirates but at the same time think circumventing DRM is perfectly ok for software I have purchased if such drm is preventing me from using my product. But a better solution is to simply not purchase from companies that use it.
AFAIK nobody has ever been imprisoned for stealing software because it's almost impossible to find them. I didn't "miss the point" because our mutual friend said that people who would be booted off of XBL (or, people who modded their XBox) should be prosecuted and sent for jail.
Everything else you mentioned, it is well within your right to not buy the game from a company that includes DRM. That's a matter of principle.
If you by "stealing software" mean downloading pirated software then you are probably right - nobody has gone to prison for it since nowhere in the world do they send people in prison for such petty crimes.
You mean theft? Yeah, theft is a pretty petty crime. Property ownership is only the foundation of our civilization.
No einstein, I don't mean "theft" since the very concept of "theft" implicates that you take something away from somebody without consent. When you make an illegal copy of something, the original is still there, untouched.
Also, I'd like to hear more about the foundation for civilization. Please, enlighten me!
Until death! I truly perceive these overtures of various software companies as an assault upon my customer rights and I hugely resent them for it. This has become a war and I personally will not surrender nor capitulate. If that means having to see the gaming world burned to the ground, or giving up gaming as a hobby - unhappy as that would make me - so be it. These companies let the proverbial genie out of the bottle yet they have the audacity to ask the paying customers to trust them when they clearly don't trust us?! The door swings both ways. I don't trust any of them further than I could throw them (i.e. not very far).
I appreciate that the companies are businesses and as such must make enough profit somewhere down the line to stay in business. I also appreciate that they aren't charities and thus they want payment for their efforts. I'm okay with all of that so far, but where I stop drinking the kool-aid is when their methods of trying to curtail piracy not only fail miserably at stopping said piracy, but also manage to actively undermine customer rights, hurts the customers' end experience and has even been known to cause physical damage. I've personally had two brand new DVD drives' firmware destroyed by SecuROM. Guess whom didn't pay for the replacements nor ask for permission to install secret software on my PC that actively tried to hide itself much the way malware and viruses do? Yep, the publishers and developers.
If these companies want my continued support as a customer both for their products and in their ongoing struggles against piracy they will have to come up with a system that: 1) Actually works. 2) Doesn't cause undue hardship nor any form of damage to the paying customers not caused by user error or faulty equipment. 3) Doesn't try to curtail customer rights nor artificially diminish the re-sale value of a product due to limited activations, one-time account tying online registrations, etc. It is my right as defined by the first sale doctrine to be able to sell any legal product that I have bought legally to another person in usable condition. If the publishers and developers don't like this right they can take it up with the US Supreme Court (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus and Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109) and/or the EU's Court of Justice.
I'm a grown adult; I already have two parents (whom I love very much). I don't need nor do I want a faceless corporation acting as a parental figure trying to manage/tell me how, when and where I can play a game I've paid full retail price for. If they want to use the current approach then I'm not willing to pay more than 5 to 10 Euros per game. They simply aren't worth anymore than that since they are in effect glorified rentals, and if the DRM measures are sufficiently harsh I wouldn't take the games off their hands for free.
That is how committed I am to this and such are my terms. They are not negotiable. Get other methods or GTFO - their current approach only feeds piracy, antagonizes potential customers and brings hate from all sides. It's time they focus on their customers and not on the pirates. If they don't they may just wake one day to find that they have lost both groups.
It's one part of the foundation of rights that form the foundation of many societies. The companies are not the only entities with rights and the violation of their IP rights does not grant them carte blanche to violate others' rights. If they can't comprehend this distinction then they have no place in civilized society except perhaps in a correctional facility.
Last edited by The_KFD_Case; 01-22-2010 at 04:51 AM.
Such a Shame
Lifetime activation limits for a game, regardless of the method utilized, is completely unacceptable. Calling a customer service representative to reset activation limits in a game I have purchased a license to is not a solution and is ridiculously inconvenient. If I had to call someone the 500th time I ran my dishwasher, I'd be just as upset.
For example, I've had my Steam account since September 2003. Since that time, I've had 5 different personal computers. Must have reformatted/upgraded HDDs and reinstalled a Windows operating system at least 20 times on those PCs. Let's not exclude 2 more computers I access my Steam account from when I visit a friend and family member. So, for a game like Counter-Strike, I'd have used at least 25+ activations as of 2010.
When it comes to games that have lifetime activation limits imposed, I wait for them to go on sale, if and when they do remove such lifetime activation limits.
"Recent Steam Store Transactions
Date Items Event Total
Dec 28, 2009 Bioshock (NA) Charge $4.99
Purchased for this account"
Finally, with lifetime activation limits, you're telling me that your multi-player component isn't that entertaining and won't have an established community within a year after the game is released.
I'll be spending my money on the hotly anticipated games being released within the next month that don't incorporate lifetime activation limits.
Last edited by Bored of Trade; 01-22-2010 at 05:09 AM.
Elizabeth, I found your post to be deceptive and absolutely disgraceful. Deliberately attempting to mislead gamers into believing that there is no online activation is the lowest of the low and is comparable to the mess that was Modern Warfare 2. I sincerely hope that 2K Games is investigated for misleading advertising. I shall certainly be bringing this to the attention of the consumer protection authorities here in Germany.
Needless to say, after the mess that was BioShock 1 and DRM, I will NOT be be buying part 2. In fact, apart from BioShock, I don't think I've bought a single 2K game since Vietcong 2, which I believe was the last DRM uncontaminated title.
Nice step forward
I´m happy we´ve made some progress since Bioshock 1. Abandoning dangerous unnecessary OpenSSL authentications
I´m looking forward to test the disk check. You know if the "blacklister", which has almost infinite configurations, isn´t too hard we may end with few "emulation detected" errors.
If you want to play safe, use the same disk check, with the same Securom configuration as the Bioshock 1 disk check
However, I have one major concern, If Steam version has Securom online activation, added with GWlive and Steam itself that version of the game will have RYG´s worst puntuation for sure.
Keep up the good work
Later
Blade
Removing SecuRom only to add Install Limits to GFWL? That's a B*tch move 2K.
I am all ready to buy this game once you get your Sh*t in order, but I will never pay $50 to rent a game from SecuRom, from GFWL... no one.
Best of luck, brother! We should unite and contact the European Comitee too and other institutions. 2K has to stop with deliberately violating people's rights and then LIE US TO OUR FACE about what a fantastic decision they made for us. LIES! It's obvious you have NO CLUE what we want.
SHAME ON YOU!!!
I personally really like how Games for Windows Live is evolving, and how it integrates the 360 features on the PC. I do hope that Elizabeth has some good news for folks in non-supported countries however. Until she comments back with specifics, remember that everything is speculation.
I hope this gets to their attention.
I can confirm that GFWL DLC works flawlessly. I bought all 5 Fallout3 DLC and never had a problem. GFWL also works very well. Only major issues are related to your ISP & or router NAT status & open ports. All can easily be adjusted & only need doing so once if your PC security/firewall/UAC settings stop the GFWL client from doing it automatically. I have been using GFWL since it launched in 2007 & never had any major issues. GFWL does not slow your PC down at all its just an urban myth you can even easily have it running in an invisible mode so you will never even know its working in the background like any other Windows service!!
MS have plenty of GFWL support staff now & even a very detailed website with most of the tech help you may ever require. 99.9% of all GFWL issues are user security related. If you live in an unsupported country you can even create a new gamertag & MS let you select any country to get around the 26 countries supported issue.
Most PC gamers hate GFWL because it stops them from easily pirating the games & getting the benefits of GFWL like leaderboards & achievements!
PM me if you need any specific help but this page & the links on the righthandside covers most issues anyway:
http://www.microsoft.com/games/en-US...s/default.aspx
Now that's something I didn't know. Are you 100% sure I won't have ANY problems in the future whatsoever with DLC, achievements, multiplayer, etc.? Can someone confirm this?
Good for you. In the meantime I will take the word of professional magazines and reviewers over yours. Not to mention that GFWL in no ways improves the paying customer's experience. At best it is yet another step one has to take before getting to play and that's only if it goes off without a hitch. Since that has not been the case for everyone whom has tried to use GFWL it amounts to a lottery. I'm not prepared to spend 30-50 Euros for a game whereby my hands get tied without asking me if I'm okay with it and which may, or may not, work. It's simply not good enough.
No, he lives in a supported country and he spreads intoxicated informations. He never had any experience with an unsupported country like the rest of us.
TRYING TO 'FOOL' GFW LIVE WILL NOT WORK. Just look at all the people who got their DIRT2 key hijacked because they registered it with GFW LIVE and now they can't get it back because it is permanently tied to a LIVE ID.
Not to mention say goodbye to the massive dlcs they planned for Bioshock 2.
AWPC GFWL has thus far done NOTHING to prevent piracy what it has done is prevented a lot of Dawn of War users that are used to having a game tied to their steam account become limited in the number of installs they can do and successfully play online....which is really funny since GFWL is based off of XBOX live which actually does things correctly and Ties something to the account not machine.
By the way it has been stated that they dont use SSA keys so its not permanently tied to the liveID but because it isnt we have non revoke-able activation limits. Live really needs a revoke tool personally I prefer SSA keys but if you could revoke SSA keys and non ssa keys that would solve most everyones problems.
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