A message about PC specs, Games for Windows Live, and SecuROM from Elizabeth

[2K Elizabeth]

Elizabeth,

First - I just want to say thanks for trying to clear this up for all of us. I can only imagine the headache it must be causing.

My question is why did 2k decide to go with GFWL at all? Especially for the multi-player achievements? Steam is a vastly superior in every way.

I seriously dislike GFWL and sadly will be missing out on achievements, etc because GWFL has already messed up one computer...

~LoA

I can't fully answer that question without talking to a lot more people, but the 10,000 foot view is that the system worked best for us for all the different things we were trying to do. There are several ways to go about delivering a game, and GFWL made sense for us in the case of BioShock 2.

I'll try to get you more details than that - and I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences in the past. If you want help getting up to speed with this game, let me know and I'll put you in contact with my tech support when you install so they can help you through it.

[army123]

The activation limit is from Microsoft, not 2K.

Games like Fallout 3 and the new Batman game have GFWL,

It's set by the publisher - 2K games.

Batman uses GFWL.
Batman doesn't have these GFWL activation limits.

[Seidnerz]

I'm not a PC gamer so I'm a little confused about the anger regarding the 15 install/activation limit. While I would be angered if I had to call microsoft to continue playing how would one ever uninstall bioshock 2 or format, upgrade, or replace the computer enough to ever reach that limit? There's probbly something obvious I'm mssing but I can't think of it. Anyway good job Elizabeth. This thread stresses ME out. I can't imagine what it's doing to your mental health. Allthough I suppose that's what a community manager is for.

[Freddo]

Well, this is how I think it is, based on the post by 2K Elizabeth and my previous experience with GFWL (from playing Fallout 3 and Kane & Lynch on the PC).

• Games for Windows Live wants to go online when the game starts to get connected to a LIVE account, and automatically update the game if patches are available.
  
• GFWL wants to be activated, there's a limit of 15 activations.
  
• SecuROM is only used for a disc check so no limited online activations from that, like the last time. Only GFWL wants to go online, not SecuROM.
  
• Steam version won't use SecuROM, seeing it's not discbased.

EDIT: reading more it seems like it's confirmed there are 15 GFWL activations. Strange move.

[Questions_and_answers]

The activation limit is from Microsoft, not 2K.



Games like Fallout 3 and the new Batman game have GFWL, so you'll probably have to use it later anyway.


The retail game can't be activated on Steam like Modern Warfare 2, can it?

I don't have Fallout 3 and batman I only have steam supported games.
I know it is possible because I got orange box retail And could download through internet if I needed to because I was out of state and didn't have my disks.

[2K Elizabeth]

The problem is that when buying a game, you're not actually owning it; rather owning a "license" to play it.
The same is true for all other software (such as Microsoft Windows).

Anyway, I think it's great that Elizabeth is taking such an active role in the community (very rare thing to see from Developers / Publishers these days).

Right then questions...
1. Is it possible for you (2K Games) to actually patch this "activation" limitation out of Bioshock (if wanted to)?
2. If yes to Question 1, then is it safe to assume that such a patch will be released within a year or 2 of the game's release (as done with Bioshock)?

Games for Windows - LIVE has never gave me much trouble, but I do find it "awkward" and unnecessary.

The thing I don't understand is why on earth are people so upset about a 15-limit activation (assuming this is correct)?
Realistically, only the "hardcore" hardware enthusiasts will ever come close to this limit (unless you have extremely bad luck with hardware failures and/or viruses).

I'll ask about the idea of lifting the limits, but this is a completely different system than what we used in the past, and from what I know from my meetings getting more activations is not difficult.

And I'm not the only one around here - Jordan and several others have been hanging out the past week or so. I hope you stick around and get to talk to them, too.

[Grimhound]

I want to clear this up: SecuROM for the retail version is ONLY a disc check, and there are NO limits for it. As for GFWL, there are 15 activations that can be reset if you reach the cap. There is no 5 activation limit anywhere with this game - in any version whatsoever.

Considering a GFW Live activation code only works with one account, why even have the machine activation limit?

[CiTyOfRaPTuRe]

I'm glad I own a 360.

Lucky, just found out today my 360 doesn't work cos it has an e74 error .

[dchalfont]

Well, this is how I think it is, based on the post by 2K Elizabeth and my previous experience with GFWL (from playing Fallout 3 and Kane & Lynch on the PC).

• Games for Windows Live wants to go online when the game starts to get connected to a LIVE account, and automatically update the game if patches are available.
  
• It is probably not a requirement to register the game on GFWL if one just want to play the single player part, as other GFWL games play their single player part fine without registering them. But it will still ask for it.
  
• But it is required to register on GFWL to get achievements in your LIVE account and to play against others in multiplayer who have a LIVE account.
  
• SecuROM is only used for a disc check so no limited online activations from that, like the last time. Only GFWL wants to go online, not SecuROM.
  
• Steam version won't use SecuROM, seeing it's not discbased.

That sounds more like what I expected, but I need to know for sure, i've never ever heard of games using GFWL as an activation method, I do understand the need to register for online games though. If it is as you say, not need for the single player component, then I will be more than happy.

[2K Elizabeth]

It's set by the publisher - 2K games.

Batman uses GFWL.
Batman doesn't have these GFWL activation limits.

I believe it does from the research I have, but I'd have to double check that for you, as I'm not an official person at their company of course.

I know they don't use SSA-keys, which is the other option.

[BeaconClose]

The problem is that when buying a game, you're not actually owning it; rather owning a "license" to play it.
The same is true for all other software (such as Microsoft Windows).

So what? that license practically says as along as you own it you can play it, these days you add DRM and that license can be revoked at any point, you are paying FULL RETAIL for a rental.

If you want to be the sucker who agrees to that then more fool you.

[army123]

I believe it does from the research I have, but I'd have to double check that for you, as I'm not an official person at their company of course.

I know they don't use SSA-keys, which is the other option.

I think Batman uses the securom for their activation limits.
GFWL for Batman only has activation + achievements


My point is, could the PC version just have GFWL for Activation + Achievements but NO activation limits?

[2K Elizabeth]

Considering a GFW Live activation code only works with one account, why even have the machine activation limit?

It isn't a machine limit. It's just the activation limit on the key. We aren't limiting machines.

[that_splicer_guy]

im buying the retail of BS 2 pc, so if i wanna play single player AND get achievements im pretty much ****ED ARNT I!?!??!??! for i have no internet on weekdays, sometimes

[2K Elizabeth]

Well, this is how I think it is, based on the post by 2K Elizabeth and my previous experience with GFWL (from playing Fallout 3 and Kane & Lynch on the PC).

• Games for Windows Live wants to go online when the game starts to get connected to a LIVE account, and automatically update the game if patches are available.
• GFWL wants to be activated, there's a limit of 15 activations.
• SecuROM is only used for a disc check so no limited online activations from that, like the last time. Only GFWL wants to go online, not SecuROM.
• Steam version won't use SecuROM, seeing it's not discbased.

EDIT: reading more it seems like it's confirmed there are 15 GFWL activations. Strange move.

This is pretty much correct except for the Steam part - I am checking on what exactly is the parameters for Steam, and I'll get that to you guys soon.

[Rapture_Reminder]

im buying the retail of BS 2 pc, so if i wanna play single player AND get achievements im pretty much ****ED ARNT I!?!??!??!

Not if you have an internet connection, and you obviously do.

[InsaneMatt]

I'll ask about the idea of lifting the limits, but this is a completely different system than what we used in the past, and from what I know from my meetings getting more activations is not difficult.

And I'm not the only one around here - Jordan and several others have been hanging out the past week or so. I hope you stick around and get to talk to them, too.

Thanks.
As I said, GFW-L has never gave me much trouble but it is pretty pointless for people like me who don't care about "achievements".
Despite me not liking this activation non-sense, I'm glad I've pre-ordered this game; I loved the original that much I've brought it twice (originally on the Xbox 360, but the console kept dying, and then recently from the Steam Holiday Sales - still haven't completed it though ).

And yes, I will definitely be at least lurking around this forum from now on as it appears a very welcoming environment... erh I mean forum.

[2K Elizabeth]

im buying the retail of BS 2 pc, so if i wanna play single player AND get achievements im pretty much ****ED ARNT I!?!??!??! for i have no internet on weekdays

Not at all! You can definitely play Single Player and Multiplayer and get achievements. You'll need an online profile with GFWL, which you can make when you install the game (or use your existing one if you already have it.) But you can play Single Player on offline mode when you don't have internet.

The game is designed to be played with both modes, and get the achievements.

[Questions_and_answers]

Elizabeth Is there any chance that down the road in the future, support will be added for retail version on steam?

Thanks in advance

[that_splicer_guy]

i feel like a n00b asking but whats, games for winows live???
is it like 360 live??? cus i dont have that

[Rapture_Reminder]

Elizabeth Is there any chance that down the road in the future, support will be added for retail version on steam?

Thanks in advance

To add to this question, I assume that currently the retail version cannot be activated on Steam (like Modern Warfare 2).

[Oppopji]

I believe it does from the research I have, but I'd have to double check that for you, as I'm not an official person at their company of course.

I have Arkham Asylum (retail ofc) & it doesn't require any form of online activation in order to install or play it.

[Jacks]

i feel like a n00b asking but whats, games for winows live???
is it like 360 live??? cus i dont have that

Pretty much Xbox Live for Windows.

[that_splicer_guy]

so i have to pay moneys to play bioshock 2 online?........THATS WHY I BECAME A PC GAMER IN THE F-IN FIRTS PLACE *BIG DADDY ROAR*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Questions_and_answers]

Pretty much Xbox Live for Windows.

You don't have a monthly fee though right?

[dArKnEsS_2]

So you want to treat the paying customers like criminals? People WILL find a way around the DRM within 1-7 days. Why treat the paying and true customers like crap? Also, Games for Windows Live sucks and you know it. All the reviews are horrible for it and it is considered a failure by EVERYONE!

[Questions_and_answers]

So you want to treat the paying customers like criminals? People WILL find a way around the DRM within 1-7 days. Why treat the paying and true customers like crap? Also, Games for Windows Live sucks and you know it. All the reviews are horrible for it and it is considered a failure by EVERYONE!

Great that makes me feel fuzzy inside.....
I haven't even heard of games for windows live before right now.

[Jacks]

You don't have a monthly fee though right?

I'm almost certain GFWL is free. Only thing you'd have to pay for is DLC with Mircrosoft-Points.

[Rapture_Reminder]

so i have to pay moneys to play bioshock 2 online?........THATS WHY I BECAME A PC GAMER IN THE F-IN FIRTS PLACE *BIG DADDY ROAR*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Ignore.

[BeaconClose]

Not at all! You can definitely play Single Player and Multiplayer and get achievements. You'll need an online profile with GFWL, which you can make when you install the game (or use your existing one if you already have it.) But you can play Single Player on offline mode when you don't have internet.

The game is designed to be played with both modes, and get the achievements.

From past experience with GFWL games he would be stuck if he has no net. GFWL ties your saves to your gamertag, so if he logged in to GFWL as "that_splicer_guy" during the week, played, saved then at the weekend he has no internet he can't sign in to that profile so GFWL will prompt him to make a new offline profile, meaning he starts over.

Unless something has changed very recently to the GFWL client software for bioshock 2?

Edit: Yes, GFWL is free.

[InsaneMatt]

So what? that license practically says as along as you own it you can play it, these days you add DRM and that license can be revoked at any point, you are paying FULL RETAIL for a rental.

If you want to be the sucker who agrees to that then more fool you.

You do realise that it's been this way since the dawn of time (so to speak)?
Software, music, movies / films, etc. all are sold to you as a LICENSE, not as property.

If you owned a music track (in the true sense), you'd be within your rights to share it... In the real world, sharing a music track (even if you brought it) is illegal as you do not own the copyrighted material. The same is true for other media.

I agree that all this DRM now-days is horrible; but you've got to accept that companies do and will try and protect their media.

i feel like a n00b asking but whats, games for winows live???
is it like 360 live??? cus i dont have that

Yes. It's like a "Gamertag" you have on Xbox LIVE.
The difference is that it's a FREE service, as opposed to the subscription-based service it is on the Xbox.

[dArKnEsS_2]

GFWL is free, but is buggy, clunky, and just another thing that runs in the background of your PC. I've heard bad things about the updating features on it.

[Lagging]

i hope that securom doesnt install crap on my machine, itd be great if i didnt get any random 'security' programs to make sure i didnt pirate the game, or so the issue i hear with "rootkits" and what not, i dont exactly know what they are but from what ive heard, they're bad news.
anyone care to explain to me how bioshock 2's securom is going to work? because im getting it for the PC, and i dont really want useless security stuff messing with my computer

[Questions_and_answers]

I'm almost certain GFWL is free. Only thing you'd have to pay for is DLC with Mircrosoft-Points.

Sigh *mild rage* For all my games DLC is free on steam (don't mean to brag or boast)
Where do I get Microsoft points? Your talking to a guy who doesn't have an xbox 360.

I'm seriously thinking of getting the special edition selling the game back to gamestop then getting it on steam.

[that_splicer_guy]

oh, so im just getting ripped off, except for free this time...that convenient

[dArKnEsS_2]

The thing is a cracked version will be available within one week of the release. This will not protect your game, but make paying customers frustrated.

I also apologize about my behavior. I joined these forums just to discuss this.

Also, I am pissed.

[BeaconClose]

Sigh *mild rage* All DLC is free on steam (don't mean to brag or boast)
Where do I get Microsoft points? Your talking to a guy who doesn't have an xbox 360.

I'm seriously thinking of getting the special edition selling the game back to gamestop then getting it on steam.

Any game store or direct from microsoft, you buy "xbox live" points or "zune" points or "microsoft" points if you buy online direct from microsoft.

[InsaneMatt]

Sigh *mild rage* All DLC is free on steam (don't mean to brag or boast)
Where do I get Microsoft points? Your talking to a guy who doesn't have an xbox 360.

I'm seriously thinking of getting the special edition selling the game back to gamestop then getting it on steam.

I don't know where you got "DLC is free on Steam" from, but Steam do sell DLC too.
A example is Railworks - it has new DLC every Friday.

EDIT: "Microsoft Points" can be brought directly off Microsoft, via GFW-L client, or from game stores as a scratch-card sort of thing.
Think of Microsoft Points as monopoly money; in the real world it means NOTHING.

[Jacks]

Sigh *mild rage* All DLC is free on steam (don't mean to brag or boast)
Where do I get Microsoft points? Your talking to a guy who doesn't have an xbox 360.

I'm seriously thinking of getting the special edition selling the game back to gamestop then getting it on steam.

You can get them at Gamestop. So lets say you make a Gamer-tag, free (Silver, you can still Download DLC as far as I know) then you buy the points, 1600 points, or 2400, then you add them to your account. THen go to the DLC, then press Buy and Download.
Something along those lines, I'm not exactly sure how they work on PC. Xbox right here, so.

[dArKnEsS_2]

Why not just use steam? GFWL is just a clunky horrible application that really shouldn't ever of been made.