Conservatism at war with itself over evolution

[Raveness]

Split Emerges as Conservatives discuss Darwin

I read this article today with some interest. It opens with this two paragraph quote:

Evolution has long generated bitter fights between the left and the right about whether God or science better explains the origins of life. But now a dispute has cropped up within conservative circles, not over science, but over political ideology: Does Darwinian theory undermine conservative notions of religion and morality or does it actually support conservative philosophy?

On one level the debate can be seen as a polite discussion of political theory among the members of a small group of intellectuals. But the argument also exposes tensions within the Republicans’ “big tent,” as could be seen Thursday night when the party’s 10 candidates for president were asked during their first debate whether they believed in evolution. Three — Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas; Mike Huckabee, former governor of Arkansas; and Representative Tom Tancredo of Colorado — indicated they did not.

I guess it's good that these three politicians are honest about their beliefs, and I guess I am not necessarily surprised about the Kansas connection here, but it is disappointing when political leaders don't want to accept knowledge about biology that has led to improvements in our understanding of disease, and thus has prolonged their own lifespans.

Debates over Darwinism became more pointed in 2005, however, as school districts considered teaching intelligent design, and President Bush stated that it should be taught along with evolution. The conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer wrote in Time magazine that to teach intelligent design “as science is to encourage the supercilious caricature of America as a nation in the thrall of a religious authority.” George F. Will wrote that Kansas school board officials who favored intelligent design were “the kind of conservatives who make conservatism repulsive to temperate people.”
I'm definitely not surprised about the views of "the Decider", as I've heard them before. It is nice to see other conservatives come out in opposition to these views. These conservatives I believe can be classified as the classical fiscal conservatives (my term), who became conservatives because of economic thinking, and not religious thinking. There is a split within the Republican party in the US that has long been papered over, between these two camps.

I'm definitely not surprised about the views of "the Decider", as I've heard them before. It is nice to see other conservatives come out in opposition to these views. These conservatives I believe can be classified as the classical fiscal conservatives, who became conservatives because of economic thinking and not religious thinking. There is a split within the Republican party in the US between these two camps that has long been papered over.

To many people, asking whether evolution is good for conservatism is like asking if gravity is good for liberalism; nature is morally neutral. Andrew Ferguson in The Weekly Standard and Carson Holloway in his 2006 book, “The Right Darwin? Evolution, Religion and the Future of Democracy,” for example, have written that jumping from evolutionary science to moral conclusions and policy proposals is absurd.

In principle I do agree with the "nature is morally neutral" comment. I'd hate for us to be getting our morality from the praying mantis, or to structure our societies like bee colonies. This idea, discussed in the article, that conservatism can use Darwinism to justify its positions, seems off-base to me. One should base one's political philosophy, it seems to me, upon what one thinks, or believes, or establishes is better for society, in terms of structure and flow.

Nevertheless, the debate is a healthy one. Perhaps American society, and by parental association western society, is preparing itself to lift its eyes back up towards the horizon. One can always hope.

[splicer]

WTF Take my advice,read something a little less weighty,you'll sleep better!

[Hatesink]

I think the term 'conservative' in the sense it's being used by this article basically refers to extremists, and is almost akin to fascism (it's become a euphemism); I think when you label that type of person 'conservative' you force the backs of radical extremists well and truly up against the wall.

I consider myself conservative, but in the wider sense of the term, not in the political sense— in political terms I would probably be most easily categorised as 'liberal'.

I think partisanship is also a problem— I think a lot of these people just toe the party line for their own gain. They 'make the right noises' because they can see the benefit in doing so, but deep down they probably know how wrong it really is (it's just not in their interests to point that fact out, to others and sometimes even to themselves).

For example, belief in intelligent design isn't based on logic, it's motivated by a commitment to a particular ideology. Anyone with even a modicum of sense should be able to see quite clearly that intelligent design is absolute bunkum— it's unproven and unprovable, basically because it's a nonsense (an obvious and self-evident fact to anyone with at least a basic education (which is probably why the 'conservatives' (read 'extremists') are trying to stop the teaching of evolution and Darwinian concepts (basic scientific facts) in favour of mumbo-jumbo)).

And personally, I wouldn't believe a politician when they say they don't believe in evolution— it would be professional suicide for them to say otherwise, and I'm sure they must have at least enough sense to understand the basic facts of evolution.

Edit: My advice is not to take what's reported by mainstream medias at face value. As long as the media is controlled by the 'conservatives' they can call themselves whatever they want.

[splicer]

I wish polititians would evolve........grow fins and crawl back into the unearthly quagmire where they belong!

[Jeff]

Hatesink is right to fix his drain to partisan politics, but I think he goes a bit far in calling intelligent design nonsensical gibberish mumbo jumbo. Looking at the idea of intelligent from a strictly biblical point of view, straight from text, it is a bit of a lofty assertion. However intelligent design has recently moved away from directly opposing evolution, more toward supporting evolution with intelligent design. While I personally feel that in any standing the idea of intelligent design is probably a pile, the fact that it is currently unproveable deem that it should be given the respect of being a feasable idea at least until it's proven or disproven. You can't up and say "That doesn't make sense, it's obviously ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺" if we all discounted every "illogical" idea, the world would still be flat darnit!

No really, I don't think intelligent design should be taught in school, mainly because when this article says "school" it refers to government funded public school, and here in canada at least we have 2 school systems, the public system and the religious system (catholic). The catholic system is free to teach it's hibbity hoop-lah in religion class and the public system teaches a mandated curriculum. Since the public system is funded through the government it should be given the same treatment as the government and should be kept seperate from religious teachings.

Jumping back to partisan politics for a minute, because I think this is the root of the larger portion of our modern woe's. The fact that we force people to feel, think and act 1 of 3 or 4 ways is outdated to the extreme. I stopped voting several years ago because there isn't a party, there isn't a representative, there isn't any being in the political spectrum that acts according to how I feel the leader of this country should and I refuse to change my beliefs or be less vehement about them in order to cast my "oh so important" vote, I'd rather toss it in the ol' dust bin. At this point though I also feel like government in it's current incarnation has been skewed so desperately far from the vision it's creators had that the only way to well and truley fix it, is to do away with it entirely and modernize our system of governing. There's too many years of past political fodder, fights and unburnt fuel bubbling beneath the surface, festering and rearing it's ugly head every time something of real importance dips it's toe in the political water. Am I the only one who seems to notice the leaders of this country (regardless of party) (the U.S. included) getting less and less done every year. Every term further clogs the political channels with poor decisions, huge balls of red tape and untold horrors of bureaucracy.

I could ramble on for hours, but I get further off topic with every sentence so I'll end it now.

[Raveness]

Thanks for the input Jeff I also find myself frustrated with the political spectrum available to vote on, so I usually go with an independant that fits my views closely. I know it's a throwaway vote, but it's not like I can deny the democracy I want within Canada. Proportional voting should get a head of steam soon, at least that gives us a better system to prevent lowly approved parties from winning a minority %

[Adabiviak]

I like how they treat the 'canon' of evolution like that of the bible: just figure out how to make it justify your cause (good or bad) and endorse accordingly.

"Nonsensical gibberish mumbo jumbo" sums I.D. up fairly accurately.

[Club Heaven]

We generally think and believe whatever's more convenient to us. Politicians or not, we're driven by fear and doubt a lot more than we want to admit it. But we use our "nice person" mask all the time because showing real emotion and anger is equal to stamping "loser" on our foreheads. It's so hard to be yourself and speak your mind when everyone just wants to look successfull and be told that they're beautiful and smart and that in the end, everything is gonna turn out fine. A culture of glittering weakness where average people are desperately trying to fit into the average mold. Honesty is viewed as a cancer, and anemic unoriginal people are assaulting you from all sides with their wisdom on choosing the perfect sofa and even the perfect partner.

The inconvenient truths are best kept hush-hush, no use in bothering ourselves with reality when there's so much (illusion of) pleasure to be bought. Just try to have sex as much as possible and gain power over your peers so you can control their minds. That's pretty much your average human's ideal in life. May it grow from a selfish or even a kind intention. And if you refuse to adhere to their rules, you're gotten rid of sooner or later, one way or another. And living can be very difficult when you're not part of the flock.

This world is a jungle and we're all fighting eachother. And even more, we're fighting ourselves. We try to deceive whatever traces of a conscience and human kindness are left in us because we can't live with the shame and burden of a life wasted on trivial matters. While smiling and congratulating in every direction we plot how to beat the other guy because surely we deserve more than he does. "He's uglier, he can't dance, his grandmother is middle eastern, surely I'm a better person !" And of course, there's also the small matter of death that makes people chase a so-called better life like crazy, while in fact all they do is run past it... what I'm trying to say is there's an overload of useless information and lies everywhere. And it pollutes and changes you especially if you think you're strong and after a while you become just another standard guy, a puppet on a string. Feeling more and more satisfied with your little success at work and confident about your manhood because ladies melt when they hear you preach your ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺. In fact, the more comfortable you are with yourself, the lower your expectations and the narrower your horizon is.

Humankind's eternal motto goes something like this: always project an image of success, seduce and conquer, blindly believe in your leaders/gods/fears. You don't need no heartache, so build a wall in your head and choose the easiest way possible to be at peace with yourself and the world. Ignore unpleasant things as long as you can afford it... because, you know... they're bad for you.

My cliched advice is always think and feel for yourself. It WILL hurt like hell but maybe this way you'll earn some self respect before you die. Maybe even earn the right to call yourself something other a hypocrit. Also, doubt everything. Doubt is real strength, doubt means you're flexible and alive. When a radical change comes, you bend. Fanatical, overconfident and strong men break.

[splicer]

If ever there was a statement that articulates my own philosophies so fluently then Club heaven has written it.Peoples beliefs make them safe,make them conform and in turn hand on a plate the power to those who seek to prosper from it.Sadly in my own experience,I've met few truly independant thinkers-we are a dying breed-Society spoon feeds us Hemlock and expects us to swallow.I choose my intellectual nourishment far more carefully. Dont become one of the flock....I'd rather jump!

[Hatesink]

if you refuse to adhere to their rules, you're gotten rid of sooner or later, one way or another. And living can be very difficult when you're not part of the flock.

Personally, I see it as a form of class differentiation— I act in accordance with my beliefs and trust that that will take me to a place where I'm happy. I know full well what it's like to be outside of (and even at odds with) the flock, and yes it can be difficult, but personally I'd rather either be on my own or working towards getting myself to a place where I like and appreciate the people and their attitudes, than to be stuck pretending I'm something I'm not amongst people I have no respect for.

what I'm trying to say is there's an overload of useless information and lies everywhere. And it pollutes and changes you

There is, and it's basically the media. It serves a purpose but it does so at a very great cost— basically the cost (as I see it) is what you're describing. It's the media that indoctrinates the people into what they've become. Everything you see in the media is created to make profit for someone; none of it comes from a truly authentic place or is based on truly healthy, nurturing values. It's exploitation and it's all about the bottom line. The government etc. condone this exploitation since it's that that generates and accelerates profit that results in the taxes etc. that feed the system, keeping the infrastructure intact and the armies fed, clothed and trained. It's basically a huge survival mechanism fueled by an exploitation of the people that's becoming more and more damaging to the individual as new ways of agitating the population to increase profit are discovered.

[splicer]

well said

[Raveness]

Those are some intriguing thoughts, Club Heaven. Maybe I'm missing the message written between the lines, but what does the stuff you've said have to do with the subject matter of this thread? It looks more suitable for that depression thread.

Could you possibly explain more in-depth how it parrallels Conservative splintering or theories of mans beginnings? Just ignore me if you intended to go off on a tangent anyways

[Jeff]

I was going to ask the same question as Raveness, we need some "tangent ahead" road signs in here.

[Hatesink]

I was going to ask the same question as Raveness, we need some "tangent ahead" road signs in here.

...or maybe a 'mind narrows' sign

or one that says 'Please think inside the box.', that we can include in the first post of threads such as this one.

[Jeff]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying sink, I hate it when threads stay on topic, it's like, if I'm having a conversation with someone in real life I should be able to barge in with completely off-topic stuff, just because. That's real freedom baby.

"So, we were discussing the pro's and con's of nuclear energy?"

"Indeed we were, I was pointing out that nuclear waste is probably the largest drawback of this push toward nuclear energy"

"Ahh, very good point sir, To counter, I went to a mets game last night and had a delicious hot dog."

[Hatesink]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying sink, I hate it when threads stay on topic, it's like, if I'm having a conversation with someone in real life I should be able to barge in with completely off-topic stuff, just because. That's real freedom baby.

"So, we were discussing the pro's and con's of nuclear energy?"

"Indeed we were, I was pointing out that nuclear waste is probably the largest drawback of this push toward nuclear energy"

"Ahh, very good point sir, To counter, I went to a mets game last night and had a delicious hot dog."

I personally don't think I'm off topic.

Edit: Also, I think Raveness is probably confused because it seems she's added me to her ignore list and so can't view my posts...

Those are some intriguing thoughts, Club Heaven. Maybe I'm missing the message written between the lines, but what does the stuff you've said have to do with the subject matter of this thread? It looks more suitable for that depression thread.

Could you possibly explain more in-depth how it parrallels Conservative splintering or theories of mans beginnings? Just ignore me if you intended to go off on a tangent anyways

[Raveness]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying sink, I hate it when threads stay on topic, it's like, if I'm having a conversation with someone in real life I should be able to barge in with completely off-topic stuff, just because. That's real freedom baby.

"So, we were discussing the pro's and con's of nuclear energy?"

"Indeed we were, I was pointing out that nuclear waste is probably the largest drawback of this push toward nuclear energy"

"Ahh, very good point sir, To counter, I went to a mets game last night and had a delicious hot dog."

HAHA nice

I'm just wondering if Club Heaven's stuff may have do to with the subject of this thread, because it somewhat sounds like it does. His first paragraph speaks of beliefs and political/apolitical truths and lies, but kinda goes off towards a more personal view of society's inescapable and unwarranted pressures on the ego's of men and women. Nevertheless, I am riveted as always by Club Heaven's musings, and wholeheartedly agree. These kind of tangerines are the sweetest tasting.

EDIT: I had read your thoughts Hatesink. Found them quite agreeable. No, I do not have you, or anyone on a ignore listing

[Hatesink]

HAHA nice

If she thinks that's good she should see what I'm posting.

The ostrich approach to relationship management.

I'm just wondering if Club Heaven's stuff may have do to with the subject of this thread, because it somewhat sounds like it does. His first paragraph speaks of beliefs and political/apolitical truths and lies, but kinda goes off towards a more personal view of society's inescapable and unwarranted pressures on the ego's of men and women. Nevertheless, I am riveted as always by Club Heaven's musings, and wholeheartedly agree. These kind of tangerines are the sweetest tasting.

His response is in light of mine?

[Adabiviak]

I disagree with a lot of what's been said, agree with some, but if defining your argument means off-topic rants, I'll sit this one out.

[Hatesink]

I disagree with a lot of what's been said, agree with some, but if defining your argument means off-topic rants, I'll sit this one out.

Alternatively you could always try and bring it back on topic.

[Corgano]

"Ahh, very good point sir, To counter, I went to a mets game last night and had a delicious hot dog."

***Multi-Non-linking-Non-linerar-tangents-with-lobster-sauce-ahead***

^^ Well, Sir Jeff, we know that you are absolutely being silly by the very unchallengeable fact of facts, that: There are NO DELICIOUS HOT DOGS at a Mets game! No Sir, none at all... *Shakes head*

*Some place in Chicago a car trunk slams loudly followed by muffled screaming and banging from inside. A man dressed in all black wearing a fedorah and dark shades turns around and slaps the trunk*

"Here that Vito, you're in luck. There is no God, so we're all going to Hell!" *Insert Evil laugh here*

Hey, where's our Borg Drone?
He knows what's going on...
Resistance is Futile... after all.

Peace,
Cor

(This silliness brought to you by the letter T. T is for Turkey! Gobble, gobble!)


EDIT: Forgot the Lobster Sauce! DOAH!!!

Also... by going off topic in this thread I am actually conforming to the forum we are currently in: Off-Topic Discussion.