Will Stealth Attacks Require Sneak?

[Hatesink]

I'm posing this question because I feel like I need to redress the balance re. the whole stealth-attack dynamic and having to sneak to get into position for 'sneak-kills', basically because I've always very heavily criticised the changes made to the basic stealth attack of the Hitman franchise, and I feel I might have done the series an injustice by doing so.

I just want to say, hopefully to in some way redress the balance, that I've been playing Blood Money and although I still do miss being able to walk straight up to an AI and coolly wire it without having to crouch-sneak, the way the stealth-attack dynamic is contextualised in Blood Money has totally changed my mind with regards the whole crouch-sneak stealth-attack dynamic.

As a huge fan of this kind of gameplay I only hope that whatever similar dynamic that might be implemented for BioShock is closer to that of either Thief or the Hitman series (which I personally used to think of as a kind of Thief: 'Modern' Age ) than it is to that of say something like Manhunt (because manhunt really does suck).

The suggested combination of 'Sneaky Smasher' and 'Chameleon Skin' has made me think the stealth-attack dynamic in BioShock might be a lot like Manhunt (with Chameleon Skin standing in for Manhunt's shadows. The worries me a little, since Manhunt sneak-attack dynamic is way too repetitive— it's the same thing repeated over and over again. The only way in which it's context sensitive in any meaningful sense is basically the location of the shadow to hide in. With chameleon skin it seems you might instead carry that shadow with you and so can effectively hide anywhere at any time (I'm guessing).

With the Hitman series it's all context sensitive. You have to pick your moment and the location and sometime even manipulate the AIs into a certain position to perform the stealth attack, so the entire dynamic stays fresh and exciting more or less throughout.)

I thought I'd just add this, since I feel I've done the latest iteration of the Hitman series (Blood Money) an injustice by criticising the Hitman stealth-attack dynamic based purely on it's implementation in the previous incarnations of the game.

Edit: I'm guessing that if the functionality of Chameleon Skin is time-limited it might mix things up a bit, make it more exciting and more tactically challenging.

[v.dog]

It would depend on the disposition of the NPCs in question. If they didn't see you as the threat, there's no reason why you couldn't walk right up to them and attack. If however, they're prone to flight, or liable to attack anything that moves, your probably wouldn't want to reveal your position to the last possible second, if at all.

[Hatesink]

I guess so.

There's a guy in the training level of Blood Money who's talking to another guy (who's blindfolded). With the 'simplify strangle' option turned off it's possible to just walk right up and wire him without sneak, just like in the original. If the guy he's preoccupied with wasn't blind-folded I guess he'd react to you approaching and make it impossible for you to wire the other guy.

I must admit the crouched sneak approach has really grown on me. I think the Hitman series is going from strength to strength, and with Blood Money I think it's really matured— for the first time I'm totally sold on the whole crouch-sneak stealth-attack dynamic

[Laser Eyes]

I'm wondering just what enemies you are going to sneak up on and kill, because the enemies I've seen so far in videos would be awfully difficult to kill in a sneak attack.

[Hatesink]

I'm wondering just what enemies you are going to sneak up on and kill, because the enemies I've seen so far in videos would be awfully difficult to kill in a sneak attack.

Who knows, but it seems like there are plasmids that facilitate that kind of gameplay so I'm guessing there's got to be at least a few characters you can take out that way. It's already been said that it will be possible to hide in shadows etc. and that stealth could very well make up at least part of a player's approach. I guess we just have to wait and see.

[jovialjester]

I hope that there is some sort of stealth aspect in the game. While I understand its a FPS, and history shows fps's to be run and gun...its still nice to have the option of sneaking in nice and close before whacking the target. It adds a whole knew level of game play imo.

[^ilovebioshock!]

man stealth for me is like going in to the shadows pulling out a silenced pistol and takin a good ol headshot,dropping down from overhead and landing on someone below,or being on the edge of some water with someone standing on somthing in front of you and given em the ol grab,pull,drown,repeat move

[splicer]

I'n not against an element of stealth,but hope it doesnt turn us into an agent 47 a 0r James Earl Cash killing machine,after all we are supposed to be an everyman with no particular training.

[Hatesink]

I thought one of my responses from the 'Say Anything You Like' thread might be pertinent to this discussion, so, here it is...

I'm hoping it's going to be open ended enough that it'll let you play in a variety of styles. I really love the Hitman series and have played it really a lot, so I'm going to be entering rapture with that gaming skill-set. I'm hoping I'm going to be able to play as if I were 47, on my way to an assignment when the plane ditched.

[^ilovebioshock!]

I thought my response from the 'Say Anything You Like' thread might be pertinent to this discussion, so, here it is...

that qoute you put there that won't show up when you said as if you were agent 47 on your way to an assignment is what i think i heard somewhere is what playing your character is about in BS creating your own back story for them

[Hatesink]

that qoute you put there that won't show up

The quote isn't showing?

Here it is...

"I'm hoping it's going to be open ended enough that it'll let you play in a variety of styles. I really love the Hitman series and have played it really a lot, so I'm going to be entering rapture with that gaming skill-set. I'm hoping I'm going to be able to play as if I were 47, on my way to an assignment when the plane ditched."

[splicer]

I guess all of this discussion about different combat options is a good sign,as most games dont have any room at all for improvisation.

For once,I think we may be able to believe the hype that no-one gamer will experience Bioshock the same as another.Personally,I'm not crazy about the whole stealth/sneak/kill mechanic,so I'll be tuning up my shotgun and wading in,but the very fact the game allows us our own playing style is very exciting.

[Hatesink]

The only thing is, Ken's calling the shots and he doesn't like stealth, so the game probably isn't going to have as extensive a stealth element as many of us might like. It seems Bioshock does have a stealth aspects, but it's primarily a shooter, and it seems to me that a good stealth game needs to be designed as a stealth game from the ground up.

[splicer]

Thats a shame HS,I was hoping it would cater for all our styles,I dont mind stealth,I loved sneaking about in thief for example,-for some reason Bioshock strikes me as more of a survival horror/rpg/Fps than anything else,thats probably why I've been drawn to it.

[Morovir]

You would think that this would be the one time where a stealth option would be nice. Seriously, if any setting cried out for a stealth method, this one does.

At the very least, there should be:

1) the ability to hide in dark corners/pipes/ducts/. etc.
2) a silent weapon, like a crossbow or dart gun.

Of course, I'm a bit biased. I always play as a "mechanic". I've tried the "RAMBO"(tm) style, and always end up going back to a sneak/stealth mode of play.

[Hatesink]

Apparently it will allow the player to hide in shadows and (I think) it was mentioned that it's possible to hide from characters and not have them walk directly to your hiding place as though they're somehow psychic.

Also it's been reported that there are plasmids named 'sneaky smasher' and 'chameleon skin', so there should be some kind of rudimentary stealth element at least (but from the ground up it's a shooter, so there might not be that great a scope for stealth gameplay (or at least that's my opinion, since it seems to me that a good stealth game needs to be designed almost from the ground up with stealth in mind.))

[Jeff]

I tend to be very weary of stealth aspects of games, not because it's not fun but more because in almost every game where stealth wasn't the main goal, all stealth or sneaking aspects felt forced and trite. Fable's stealth system drove me insane and the only time you really use it is when a specific mission forces you to, ala "sneaking" into the bandit camp. It took me at least 5 tries meaning I had to kill 15 bandits before "sneaking" in. The main problem is that alot of the time in games NPC's are given a specific range of awareness, this range is always a circle around the NPC that if you enter, it becomes immediately aware of you. You could be sneaking up behind it in the dead of night, not making a peep but the second you get close enough the NPC flies around and engages you. It's really aggrivating.

[Hatesink]

From what I've seen of the games I've played tacked-on stealth never really works. I just hope BioShock's stealth is at least passable. I'm guessing it should be, after all didn't they make Thief?

[Irrational_Alexx]

As I've said before, BioShock is *not* a game about stealth. Stealth is a tool that will be useful for some players in some circumstances. If you tailor your plasmid loadout towards the stealth-y side, you'll have more fruitful opportunities to use stealth, but no one is expected to be able to use stealth *all* of the time. Conversely, we never demand that a player use stealth to succeed.

Alexx Kay, Designer, Irrational Games

[Hatesink]

I guessing that basically means don't get your hopes up.

[Havok4]

I hope it will have a system similar to deus ex, which was very natural feeling, but I also like the idea of sneaking being completely optional, as I tend to not be very good at it.

[nyoe]

I'm posing this question because I feel like I need to redress the balance re. the whole stealth-attack dynamic and having to sneak to get into position for 'sneak-kills', basically because I've always very heavily criticised the changes made to the basic stealth attack of the Hitman franchise, and I feel I might have done the series an injustice by doing so.

I just want to say, hopefully to in some way redress the balance, that I've been playing Blood Money and although I still do miss being able to walk straight up to an AI and coolly wire it without having to crouch-sneak, the way the stealth-attack dynamic is contextualised in Blood Money has totally changed my mind with regards the whole crouch-sneak stealth-attack dynamic.

As a huge fan of this kind of gameplay I only hope that whatever similar dynamic that might be implemented for BioShock is closer to that of either Thief or the Hitman series (which I personally used to think of as a kind of Thief: 'Modern' Age ) than it is to that of say something like Manhunt (because manhunt really does suck).

The suggested combination of 'Sneaky Smasher' and 'Chameleon Skin' has made me think the stealth-attack dynamic in BioShock might be a lot like Manhunt (with Chameleon Skin standing in for Manhunt's shadows. The worries me a little, since Manhunt sneak-attack dynamic is way too repetitive— it's the same thing repeated over and over again. The only way in which it's context sensitive in any meaningful sense is basically the location of the shadow to hide in. With chameleon skin it seems you might instead carry that shadow with you and so can effectively hide anywhere at any time (I'm guessing).

With the Hitman series it's all context sensitive. You have to pick your moment and the location and sometime even manipulate the AIs into a certain position to perform the stealth attack, so the entire dynamic stays fresh and exciting more or less throughout.)

I thought I'd just add this, since I feel I've done the latest iteration of the Hitman series (Blood Money) an injustice by criticising the Hitman stealth-attack dynamic based purely on it's implementation in the previous incarnations of the game.

Edit: I'm guessing that if the functionality of Chameleon Skin is time-limited it might mix things up a bit, make it more exciting and more tactically challenging.

i find it a shame you didnt like manhunt the attacks were a bit repetitive but what about the overall styling of the game

[nyoe]

sorry about double post but for me stealth always meant not killing or if killing was a must it had to go by unnoticed and in in quick motion look at splinter cell where your encouraged on the harder difficulties to not kill anyone and just use deception and whatnot to sneak by to me thats true stealth

[Hatesink]

...what about the overall styling of the game

I liked it— it reminded me lot of Kingpin, which is a game who's style and tone I absolutely love. If there ever was an 'old-school' game that should have a sequel, it's absolutely Kingpin (it's my opinion that it should be a classic, just the tone and atmosphere alone (if it could be captured in a sequel (probably no easy feat)) would be enough to set it apart).

As for Manhunt, I felt more could have been made of the visual filters. Sometimes those kinds of filters are put in place with movies because it has the effect of lessening the impact of a particular scene, and so can get a movie past the critics (at least where TVs concerned). It wouldn't surprise me if the whole 'movie' contrivance utilised in Manhunt was to get as extreme a set of images into the game as possible through the use of visual filters to please the critics (that's conjectural).

But I did think that they could have made much more of those filters and the whole VHS video motif (make it a real addition instead of just leaving it as, what I perceived to be, a conceit to please the critics).

I didn't play past the segment with the attack on the crane, since I wasn't really motivated to continue playing enough to keep re-trying the crane segment.

[Bioshock_FTW!]

I liked it— it reminded me lot of Kingpin, which is a game who's style and tone I absolutely love. If there ever was an 'old-school' game that should have a sequel, it's absolutely Kingpin (it's my opinion that it should be a classic, just the tone and atmosphere alone (if it could be captured in a sequel (probably no easy feat)) would be enough to set it apart).

I'll back ya on that one! I LOVED Kingpin. One of the prominent FPS's during the original Half-life and SS2 era...I'll bet not many people remember it. It was quality for what it was. Definitely deserves a revisit.

[Hatesink]

I'll back ya on that one! I LOVED Kingpin. One of the prominent FPS's during the original Half-life and SS2 era...I'll bet not many people remember it. It was quality for what it was. Definitely deserves a revisit.

Kingpin's atmosphere and tone are very cool. If it could be captured for a sequal I'd absolutely want to play it, but I'm guessing it'd basically be impossible.

[lurchibald]

i NEVER crouched in hitman blood money to use the wire i would just walk behind someone and click the mouse and bang you got em

[Morovir]

In Deus Ex, I used stealth to get to the nearest computer console, so I could let the security system help out. This way, I not only conserved ammo, I also took less damage.

The trick was that there were two kinds of stealth - IR and EM. You had to pick one or the other (unless you used cheats) So, you could be invisible to people, or bots, but not both. That, combined with the limited amounts of bioenergy, made it interesting.

My favorite levels were the ones where I flipped the security system, and led the bad guys into an ambush.

[Raveness]

The trick was that there were two kinds of stealth - IR and EM. You had to pick one or the other (unless you used cheats) So, you could be invisible to people, or bots, but not both. That, combined with the limited amounts of bioenergy, made it interesting.

Incorrect. You could use both Cloak (humans) & Radar Transparency (machines) in the two Subdermal augmentation slots if you wished. This route chewed up bioenergy if both were turned on, but if you added the Power Recirculator, it was something you could hold for 30 seconds at full power.

I'm protective of misinformation for that title