X800 users: Warning

[Stardog]

Its just some idiots feeling butthurt that they bought a crappy card when shader model 3 was already out.

I don't get why you're all insulting people that don't have SM3 cards. SM2-only cards make up 50%'ish of the pc gamer userbase. They won't be able to play the game. I won't be able to play the game and I couldn't care less.

At the end of the day, these people will not be buying the game and it'll only hurt Irrational at the end of the day.

As it stands, I'll have to downgrade paying £95 ($190'ish) for a X1600 that runs worse than an X800 to play Bioshock. It ain't going to happen.

[beaver]

I'm not pissed at any company or anything in particular I'm just bummed. I know the card is 3 years old or whatever, but when I bought it, it was pretty close to top of the line. I think I paid $300-$400 for it. Now I knew it wasn't going to be good forever but to totally become practically unsupported overnight sucks.

And to those who are saying just upgrade your card for $50 or whatever you have to be serious. I don't think this card even came in a PCI-E version which means everyone who owns it is running an AGP motherboard. Meaning they would need to get a new motherboard, CPU, RAM, Vid Card, and most likely power supply. For parts that (hopefully) won't be obsolete in a year this would run about $700 (trust me I was thinking about upgrading before I saw what my cart total was at newegg.

There are still computers put out today that use crappy onboard or just inept video, so arguing that most people will be able to play this just isn't true. In fact I can only think of one of my friends that will be able to play it at its recommended settings and that's only because he is nuts and spends all his cash on his PC and consoles.

Like I said, I don't blame anyone in particular, it's just disappointing. I've never had a piece of computer hardware go from sufficient to useless overnight.

[legendale]

What some of you people don't seem to realize, it's more then just going out and buying a new card. Most of us 800 series card owners have AGP ports and not PCI-E ports. If it was only a matter of going out and buying a 8800 GT card that would be fine, but it's not. We have 2 (rather ☺☺☺☺ty) choices - go buy a higher end AGP card that will not have DX10 support - or do the whole motherboard swap-out with new processor, memory and then the 8800 card - and now we are really talking a major expense.

My point is, this is a bigger deal to us then you flamming, smug, self-imoportant, pompus ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺s are making it out to be.

[Sloblocks]

You guys at 2K Games better be prepared for a ☺☺☺☺-load of complaints about this. I understand that progress is progress and moving up to SM3 is a solid step in the right direction, but what you stated on the box is by no means clear enough.
"X1300 or better"... well an X800 is a way better card than the X1300.
DX9.0c compliant... not specific enough... I've had 9.0c on my machine for a while and it's been pretty damn compliant up to now.

You have to realize that 95% of people buying this game aren't PC-overclocking-extreme-video-card-weenies like most of the people replying to this post. Do you really think your average Joe in the street who bought a recent PC and is buying the game for his kid is likely to know that his video card is fully DX9.0c compliant?!? I think not.

Hope your re-packaging guys are on acid because you're going to see a whole bunch of returns.

So... ☺☺☺☺☺ing session over... what's the best value DX10 card for around 250-300 bucks these days? 8800GTS??

[quakemazer]

Well, Bioshock kind of came out of left field what with going gold, and demo, and launch happening so quickly. I wasn't following it too closely and thought it would be out sometime after Crysis. Wrong.

When I started seeing the stellar reviews for Bioshock I knew I would have to upgrade my x850xt platinum edition (pci-e, hey I only paid $100) to be a part of this wonderful game. But after looking over my upgrade options, and thinking back to my upgrade experience for Doom3/HL2... I've decided to wait for the next gen DX10 cards to even think about upgrading. When I do upgrade, I'll be looking for a heavily discounted 8800GTX or 2900XT.

The downside is that I'll have to wait to play Bioshock and whatever goodies come out until I'm seeing this generations High End cards selling sub $250. Hell, when the 8800gts 320mb drops to near $200 I may just snatch one of those up due to impatience -that can't be too far off unless no new cards hit before Crysis-.

The suckiest part about the state of things now is ATI's total failure to up the performance ante and drive prices down with their 2xxx series. So it's a waiting game.

Besides, if you can hold off to upgrade, the game will be cheaper, patched up, and your hardware faster in relation to this game. It's all relative dudes.

[ScottJG]

Guys, I am working on a fix to this. Check out my thread here

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5689

Or just look down the page a little

[quakemazer]

Scott has it working on SM2.0 cards check his thread immediately.

[Shockme]

Thanks for the warning. I have the X800xt pro and was really looking forward to this. Oh well. I will check back for a fix often.

And to all the kiddies who bashed the OP. ☺☺☺☺ you.

[CrushU]

I'm similar to quakemazer. (And I agree with alot of people that the OP is a jerk. Nice that he's warning, but honestly, stop ranting. One rant is enough.)

I bought my computer, knowing that I'd have to upgrade. I bought it around the time of Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, and it ran that at high quality, no bumps at all. What is my PC, you ask? Dual-core AMD 3200 X2, 2GB DDR2 800 RAM, and a x850 Radeon. PCI-Express, thankfully. The ONLY thing I didn't go for was a second PCI-E port, because 2 cards running together gives 120% of 1 card, so it's better to just spring for a better card.

Now, I'm very technically minded, and I knew that DDR2 would need to run double the clockspeed of my old DDR400 memory to be worth it. I also found very good CAS latency RAM that worked great. When I looked at video cards, I had previously had an nVidia Gf4800 Ti, and was happy, but looking at comparably priced nVidia and ATI cards, ATI had more power. And I mean that. The x850 is a very powerful card for its price, while it may not have alot of texture memory. Texture memory, however, is not important. I had not noticed the lack of Pixel Shader 3.0 support, and had never had a problem with it... Until now.

I said all that to say this: I KNEW I got a somewhat cheap card (2005) and that I'd need to replace it to become Seriously Badass, so it isn't surprising to me that newer games won't run great. I'm not saying they should. So I will buy a new card, simply because I had planned on it, and prepared for it. I hadn't expected to buy one *quite yet*, however.

I followed Bioshock very closely. I followed it back when most people didn't know it existed, and in fact it existed as a mere whisper of a rumor to a sequel to System Shock 2. System Shock 2 is one of my favorite games for the very rich and exceedingly creepy atmosphere that was finely-crafted and imminently noticeable throughout the game. The depth behind that game was overwhelming, and few games match it for me. So I followed Bioshock closely, with every intention of buying it the day it came out. I buy games very rarely because there is alot of quality freeware out there that I can spend endless time with. It takes something very special to capture my hard-earned money from my cheapskate fist. This game qualified.

I had NEVER known about the lack of support for my card. I'm not exactly pissed, or outraged, I understand that the market moves on.

I *am*, however, a programmer. Not a very talented or extensive one, having dabbled with DirectX briefly before I lost the time to dedicate to learning it. But I *know* what is necessary for backwards compatibility. Depending on how extensive the differences between 2.0 and 3.0 are, that's how difficult and extensive the workarounds must be done. As someone earlier said, at least half the market now uses 2.0. The difference between All the Market and Half the Market is not worth 'higher quality water effects'. There should have been an option to use simpler pixel shaders. That there isn't breaks my heart that I can't play this game yet, that I have to wait longer. It doesn't kill my thoughts for 2K as a good company, after all, they got lots of positive points for being willing to pick Bioshock up in the first place, but it does make me cry inside.

Done ranting now, I just want to point out a small thing... Anyone notice the center logo of companies on the back? The Havok symbol? I know that symbol. I've played other games that used them to make their physics engine, and they totally Own. ... It makes me want to play the game more. :P Oh well. This is my first and probably last post. Bye.

[TurdFergasun]

I think what the op has failed to realize, and that most of the sheep replying fully understand is: that 2K has produced a game here, and if you could just comprehend the fact that 2k was, and is involved in this process, it's a rational course of action to get your mommy to buy you a new peripheral every time you everytime the back of a box commands you to do so. seriously tho with 2k games involved i would be hard pressed not to sell my left nut to chinese organ dealers just to get a sm 3.0 card because some random un-nameable game company produces a game based on bottom dollar economics. It's truly laughable to all the sheep browsing/replying in this thread about what the op should have done, and what superbest lucky EXTREME hardware he should have, when for some unforseen reason they are also in the bioshock technical support forum. along with 800+ other damned souls both with nvidia/ati sm 2.0/3.0 cards viewing the bioshock troubleshooting forum. thinkin alot more money was placed in the marketing budget of this game than programming. If i could only remember what company produced this game I would lodge a serious complaint.

[Shockme]

Well I think it has to have something to do with them having their heads up Microsofts ass and trying to drive the market. I think they will fail with the majority of gamers on the PC platform because they are targeting, at a majority, an older bunch of gamers. Before the elder bashing starts with the kiddies I just want to say that 1 game will not force the majority of gamers to run out and get that sweet new overpriced card just to play it.

[Twinsen]

They'll probably get quite a few people to step up and upgrade their cards. But a much larger amount of people are just going to return the game to their local WalMart and pick up a copy of Gaylo 3 when it comes out next month.

[zulfy26]

*WOOSH*
2K!2K!2K!

This post brought to you by 2K.

Well, I didn't feel the need to deeply research the game before I purchased it. I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) that I figured I'd be able to run this one at minimum settings.

This post brought to you by 2K.

Deep research is reading the box?

[3elevenX]

So a brand new, hyped game using the new UT engine comes out and you assume your x800 4yr old card can run it without checking out the specs.

Take $110 and go purchase a x1800xt, problem solved.

[sugaki]

So a brand new, hyped game using the new UT engine comes out and you assume your x800 4yr old card can run it without checking out the specs.

Take $110 and go purchase a x1800xt, problem solved.

It's amazing how stupid these posters are. For one, x1800xt is at least $170--not the money I want to spend for a mediocre video card. Has the same pixel pipelines and only 2 more vertex pipelines than my X850. An overclocked X850 easily trumps the supposed mid-range X1600. If you were any type of "computer expert" as you claim to be you'd know that.

Second, the box never tells the whole story. There are countless "DirectX 9.0C required" games that run just fine on my SM2.0 cards (of course, if you're a 2K lackey that has mommy buy everything for you you probably won't understand that). Call of Duty 2, STALKER, Company of Heroes, heck even Sims 2 expansions lists DX9.0c on the box, and they all worked without any problems.

Nor do I care to invest in a quad core CPU until games are optimized for them, and for the newer-gen DX10 video cards. Really, Bioshock could've ran on SM2.0 cards easily. They were just too lazy to do so. Games now don't really take advantage of unified GPU architecture (GeForce 8800 series), nor does Bioshock NEED SM3.0 to reduce the computational overhead for API. And I bet what I just said flew over 90% of the vapid trolls on this thread.

[Twinsen]

So a brand new, hyped game using the new UT engine comes out and you assume your x800 4yr old card can run it without checking out the specs.

Take $110 and go purchase a x1800xt, problem solved.

The box does not say that you need 3.0 SM. It says you need an x1300 or better. I have a better card than an x1300, and that's an easy call to make. It doesn't say x1300 or newer, and it didn't make any reference to the shaders. It also says I need a Pentium proc, but like all system requirements, they're just random ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ that they put on the box so you have some idea of what you need to run the game.

[KelsieKatt]

I figured that since I can run any other PC game in the entire world (read that again) that I figured I'd be able to run this one at minimum settings.

Sorry but BioShock isn't the only game thats shader model 3.0 exclusive, some games are starting to require it and have for some time, such as Splinter Cell and Rainbow Six off the top of my head.

[SaintCinderella]

I have 2 choices now. Refund the game or buy the card.

Since I will be selling my computer next year, I think it would be easier for me to refund the game.

What a pity. This is supposed to be a great game.

[KamikaZe]

I have 2 choices now. Refund the game or buy the card.

Since I will be selling my computer next year, I think it would be easier for me to refund the game.

What a pity. This is supposed to be a great game.

Since when can you refund games nowadays? I sure as heck can't because of the copying and stuff

[KelsieKatt]

Also I think it's more a matter of the developers are tired of having to support SM 2.0 because people are too lazy to upgrade and would really like to rid the world of it considering that its been around since 2002 (if I remember correctly.) Sure the X800 series isn't too old but think about this, if they add shader model 2.0 support then guess what, they have to make it work on computers dating back to 2002. (And don't say they wouldn't because thats utter bull, I've seen my fair share of tons of ☺☺☺☺☺ing about FX 5200's etc not being fast enough for something that supports X800's. Take Oblivion for example.)

[SaintCinderella]

Since when can you refund games nowadays? I sure as heck can't because of the copying and stuff

I bring it back to the shop.....

I almost cried when I can't run this game. I been living on instant noodles and bread for a month just to save up for this, and when I bought it, it doesn't run because of SM3!

Now the thought of doing it again for a SM3 card really put me off. I guess if I can't refund it, I will just have to sell it online.

It was such a STUPID thing to do to save up for this.

[KamikaZe]

I bring it back to the shop.....


It was such a STUPID thing to do to save up for this.

Then WHY didn't you try out the demo first for crying out loud. I asked this question like 100 times but not one person who is angry because it doesn't support sm2.0 has answered this question.

Or why not reading the minimum requirements. They have been posted like 2 months ago. That looks to me enough time to find out if your computer can play it or not.

[KelsieKatt]

Note that in my earlier post I do feel a little sorry for the X800 Series people, but that's ATI's fault for not thinking about this in the first place... Not like they saved people any money for not including 3.0 either.

Also unfortunately stores won't take back PC games because a lot of people think its cool to pirate a game and sell it as a so-called "Used" copy. The only thing you can do is trade it in for the same game if there is something wrong with it.. otherwise you're out of luck sorry...

[KelsieKatt]

Then WHY didn't you try out the demo first for crying out loud. I asked this question like 100 times but not one person who is angry because it doesn't support sm2.0 has answered this question.

Or why not reading the minimum requirements. They have been posted like 2 months ago. That looks to me enough time to find out if your computer can play it or not.

Lol you have a point there ^_^

[Jerry]

Yes the x800xt is a good card, it beats a lot of the lower end pcie range on sheer grunt, but it lacks 2.0. I knew this, I'm no hardware expert. I personally have an x800xt too, but I knew what I was buying, I bought the card primarily for BF2, which it still runs very well.

I don't however expect to be able to play any of the latest releases at a reasonable rate. Things move on, you have to accept it, at some point all games will require 3.0 anyway, something has to give, sooner rather than later. If your not in a position to keep your rig upto date, it's hard.

[KelsieKatt]

Yes the x800xt is a good card, it beats a lot of the lower end pcie range on sheer grunt, but it lacks 2.0. I knew this, I'm no hardware expert. I personally have an x800xt too, but I knew what I was buying, I bought the card primarily for BF2, which it still runs very well.

I don't however expect to be able to play any of the latest releases at a reasonable rate. Things move on, you have to accept it, at some point all games will require 3.0 anyway, something has to give, sooner rather than later. If your not in a position to keep your rig upto date, it's hard.

finally a reasonable response

[Stardog]

Yes the x800xt is a good card, it beats a lot of the lower end pcie range on sheer grunt, but it lacks 2.0. I knew this, I'm no hardware expert. I personally have an x800xt too, but I knew what I was buying, I bought the card primarily for BF2, which it still runs very well.

I don't however expect to be able to play any of the latest releases at a reasonable rate. Things move on, you have to accept it, at some point all games will require 3.0 anyway, something has to give, sooner rather than later. If your not in a position to keep your rig upto date, it's hard.

At the end of the day Bioshock is a 360 game. They're not too bothered about the PC market. Clearly there's more sales on consoles.

I've known that Bioshock required SM3 for a while, but the fact remains that 2K will lose sales because a lot of pc users can't play this game. It really is that simple.

I don't think Bioshock is a massively commercial game that will appeal to casual gamers. You only have to look at gaming threads on sports forums to see what type of games they're looking forward to - PES7, Saints Row 2, GTA IV, MGS4 etc.

You just better hope it sells loads or say hello to an expansion pack rather than a sequel.

[Jerry]

I'm on the 360 anyway, which will sell millions, the console has been crying out for a decent story driven FPS.

I obviously made a mistake in my post I said 2.0 when I meant 3.0. You guys understood me anyway.

[MeanDinosaur]

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

I don't really support either video card company, neither has done everything right yet. They both have downsides each generation. The problem is that the game costs $50, very few people are willing to spend an additional $150 to upgrade their already very capable machine to TRY OUT one game and then have worse performance on ALL of their other games.

Do you guys all assume that everybody has SM3.0 cards?

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

First, It's your fault you bought that POS card. Nvidia already had cards out that supported SM 3.0, ATI even knew they messed up not supporting it and did on their later cards. The main thing said about that card when it came out was "It will perform like Nvidia's, but you need to understand you won't have SM 3.0". That's two generations before the current cards. That's a lifetime in graphics technology. It was made abundantly clear to people buying that crap card at the time that they would have to upgrade sooner than everyone else.

Second, don't come in here trying to defend your stupid decision from the past. You didn't know what you were doing when you bought your video card. It's your fault.

The world isn't like your parents. It isn't going to hold your hand and tell you everything will be ok because you screwed up. Deal with your own crap. Next time don't blow your money on ☺☺☺☺.

[sugaki]

Then WHY didn't you try out the demo first for crying out loud. I asked this question like 100 times but not one person who is angry because it doesn't support sm2.0 has answered this question.

Because the demo came out one day before release, and I tried out the 360 demo a week before.

Or why not reading the minimum requirements. They have been posted like 2 months ago. That looks to me enough time to find out if your computer can play it or not.

Not everyone lives on the forums and reads about whatever sliver of info they can find. People assume that a high-end video card from the previous generation (which are almost always faster than current-end mid-range cards) will run games fine. The X850XT may be old, but it's by no means outdated. People who think so probably buy their video cards from Bestbuy, look at higher numbers (oo 500MHZ clockspeed! 512MB RAM!) and assume it's better. Hence the laughable suggestion of "upgrading" to a slower, inferior X1600 from this board. The X850 is roughly equivalent to an Nvidia 7800 GS. Newer doesn't mean better.

SM3.0 doesn't really look any better, it just takes advantage of less computational overhead from particle effects and other frivolties. It's not that hard for a game to run on SM2.0, and it doesn't hurt the game in doing so, either. Devs were just lazy, or in a rush. Lack of widescreen support (are we back to 1998?) is evidence of this.

[Stardog]

sugaki said it.

Note this screen:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6...ed1copygu3.jpg

You're telling me SM3 is so much of a step forward that they dump SM2 users who can run this screenshot about as smoothly as Doom 3?

[Chrushev]

you do realize that Nvidia had pixel shader 3 in their cards for the last 4 years right? (starting with GF6 gen)...

I think its a fair bet for them to expect that anyone wanting to play bioshock has a system that is newer than 4 years.

PS - i think its funny how everyone was bashing Nvidia at the time, and all the ATI fanboys were screaming how X800 > 6800 and that X800 can just emulate the PS3.0

Im in no way an Nvidia fanboy... i have both ATI and Nvidia cards in my PCs.

[Nil Einne]

I was planning to post here but I ended up summarising my thoughts in a FAQ. Feel free to perview them here. http://www.geocities.com/nil_einne/BioShock_FAQ.html

In summary though while I agree some of the X800 etc people here may be going a little far, I also completely agree that lack of SM2.0 support is ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺. And I do in fact have a SM3.0 card, 6600GT...

[pilferk]

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

I don't really support either video card company, neither has done everything right yet. They both have downsides each generation. The problem is that the game costs $50, very few people are willing to spend an additional $150 to upgrade their already very capable machine to TRY OUT one game and then have worse performance on ALL of their other games.

Do you guys all assume that everybody has SM3.0 cards?

2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K2K

No, but I do assume (I know...you know what they say about assumptions) everybody can read...as in...the side/back of the box (or, in steam's case, the purchase page).

[pilferk]

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/?article_id=602522

Um....that's great for Unreal3...and the U3 engine.

'Course, I don't see a single comment about Bioshock, or from one of the Bioshock devs.....

[aznpxdd]

But the point is that 2K DID NOT list SM3.0 as one of the requirements on the box. It was extremely vague - a Direct 9.0c compatible card.

Plus if you want to compare raw power, a X850XT PE is more than capable for running BioShock. It still beats the 7600GT and is very close to the 8600GT when it comes to raw speed.

[pilferk]

Yeah, it is the fault of x800 owners. Rrrg. Shame on us for buying a good card. We should base all of our buying decisions on a game that came out less than 2 hours ago.

No, you should base your buying decisions (of the game that was out 2 hours ago) on what's clearly printed on the side of the box CONTAINING what you're purchasing. If you can't be bothered to read the minimum specs, clearly printed on the box...why should anyone else (2k included) care?

[bwl2]

Yep, my x850xt PE has been screwed over. I will not take this lying down however.

[robottik]

Let 2k know we want them to support SM 2.0

Vote here:http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=125696&posted=1#post125696

[pilferk]

But the point is that 2K DID NOT list SM3.0 as one of the requirements on the box. It was extremely vague - a Direct 9.0c compatible card.

Plus if you want to compare raw power, a X850XT PE is more than capable for running BioShock. It still beats the 7600GT and is very close to the 8600GT when it comes to raw speed.

X1300 or better (and yes, I know you're all going to argue the x800 and x850 is "better" than the x1300....but the fact is, traditionally in specs "better" has meant "newer").

Your "number" is lower than an x1300. It's a pretty easy comparison to make for the "average joe". People here are overthinking it, simply because they're ticked off they can't run the game.

It's a game. It's clearly stated what the specs are. The devs have been completely up front about the specs. They've practically shouted them from the mountain tops. So, what's the issue again?

Oh yeah...people are pissed so want to rant. Let me sum this up. You have 2 (productive) choices: Upgrade or don't play. ☺☺☺☺☺ing gets you exactly zero.

Eventually, SM 3.0 is going to be the baseline. This happens literally EVERY generation of hardware...something always has to go "first". And whatever it is....from Wizardry requiring a CGA graphics card, to Ultima VII requiring a 386...all the way to Bioshock requiring a SM 3.0 vid card...that product gets grief from the gamer community. Same story, different day.