my H2H running record...

[JackHall2003]

Logged on early this morning in the hope that duke was up late - no to be, so I took on dan in ranked.

My Japanese vs his English.

At the north of the map I walked the only direction available, west. Named a tile and got a friendly. The land was dire though and I settled on a hill next to a barb (blocking me) with 1 tree rather than walk back to my original position (the only 2 tree spot) in the hope the barb revealed something nice - it didn't!

Kept that warrior going south and rushed another for a barb north, tech'd HBR. My southern warrior can see Egypt (Henge) with a unit in the Cap (33-3200bc?) and befor I can get any info/gold dan takes them out. damn. Warrior takes a barb for pottery and shows me Angkor Wat, but I have no way of getting to it. Next barb gives me bronze - don't you just hate that!

Anyway, get a horse out and that gets me a caravan that spots one of dan's warriors heading to another barb, so I dance round the barb and kill his warrior before taking the barb. Threaten the mongols for 25g and sell a warrior to get 100 - a milestone I reached just before dan. He had a WA approaching Kyoto but moved away again.

I see him settle a city just across from the AW and he soon takes it for the great wall. I set sail with a galley myself hoping to find something and put the HA in to take Karakorum. A friendly tells me there is only 1 artifact. I take 4 pop Karakorum making my army march but dan immediately flips it.

Sorry, big anti-climax, but I called it. A few nice dye spots around the Mongol area and I had nothing. GG.

[JackHall2003]

Next up I took the Mongols. Up against K9Mur's Chinese.

Named a tile while walking and spot the German borders. I took a bit of a risk here. I could see the borders covering two tiles, and the walk-in would be available if one of those tiles was the cap. It wasn't. I stepped on the tree anyway, attacked 1vs2, retreated double injured and made peace. Next turn the German warrior steps out anyway so I get the cap.

Obviously not feeling threatened by my double injured warrior - Is this a reliable trick? or just the Germans being weird? (a bit like the Arabs sometimes).

Anyway, I get my HA together around 2700bc and know where Tripoli is. Looking good. About to position my vet warrior and 2 experience HA on a hill outside Tripoli for the attack next turn when K9 takes them out. Hmmn... my chances of fundy gone?

I guess K9 changed government as it locked up next turn. He quit immediately. Not a bad start as the Mongols (got 3 barbs btw, and none had grass), but against china - who knows?

[Zefelius]

Next turn the German warrior steps out anyway so I get the cap.

Obviously not feeling threatened by my double injured warrior - Is this a reliable trick? or just the Germans being weird? (a bit like the Arabs sometimes).

That is a good question...

[Frelinder]

i would put the frequency of barb cities with at least 1 grass at closer to 2 out of 3 instead of 1 out of 3.

Next up I took the Mongols. Up against K9Mur's Chinese.

I guess K9 changed government as it locked up next turn. He quit immediately. Not a bad start as the Mongols (got 3 barbs btw, and none had grass), but against china - who knows?

Yea well this is very hard to say. 2 out of 3 is more then half the barbs having grass. Impossible to prove but I'm pretty sure of that its less then half of the barbs that got grass. If you counting plains you are probably correct though. However growing in 10 turns with a barb I think is stupid. I would never, ever, ever do that..

*cheers*

[elthrasher]

Obviously not feeling threatened by my double injured warrior - Is this a reliable trick? or just the Germans being weird? (a bit like the Arabs sometimes).

I think I've seen this before. Somebody should test it and add it to Duke's thread. Could definitely be good to know!

However growing in 10 turns with a barb I think is stupid. I would never, ever, ever do that..

I've done this a lot in kitten games. I wouldn't do it if I actually had to play well to win.

[Frelinder]

Duke's thread mostly has old games and we don't play now like we played then. I document all of my games on this site. Read about them in the king title threads that I hold or in the bracket games threads. My games rarely last more than 30 turns.
.

I have noticed that the agression have stepped up one more notch the last year. However you are saying that your games rarely last longer then 30 turns. Well thats because you are very agressive early. Either it works or it don't work. From this you draw the conclusion that long games doesn't occur so therefor setting up and planing for a little longer game is foolish. When you are being very agressive early and you loose. What conclusion do you make then? do say to yourself that the other guy simply had a better start or out-played you? Or do you ask yourself if being that agressiv early was the wrong move?

Im not saying being agressiv is bad. Its always good to put presure on your opponent but can't it be so that in many games there could be other options that are better? Why risk an early attack that might fail and now you got few cities and all the hammers you invested in that early attack is gone. maybe an later attack when you got 10+ cities with cats or knights would have been much better?

Your games rarely last more then 30 turns because you wan't them that way. That doesn't nesecearly means this is always the right play.

*cheers*

[elthrasher]

I have noticed that the agression have stepped up one more notch the last year. However you are saying that your games rarely last longer then 30 turns. Well thats because you are very agressive early.

Or the other guy is. Or one party got such a superior start there was no point in playing it out.

Either it works or it don't work.

As with all things, yes.

From this you draw the conclusion that long games doesn't occur so therefor setting up and planing for a little longer game is foolish.

No, that's your conclusion. My preferred method of play is simply to win as quickly as possible. Why? Because I've played bazillions of games and dragging things out is just boring to me. If I have the upper hand, I strike. If I'm weak, I strike because striking in weakness is better than curling up into a ball. Plus I've had games against great players where that worked out and gave me the win while turtling most certainly would not have.

When you are being very agressive early and you loose. What conclusion do you make then? do say to yourself that the other guy simply had a better start or out-played you? Or do you ask yourself if being that agressiv early was the wrong move?

Obviously it depends on the game, but generally I don't find being aggressive early to be a mistake. Sometimes I misplay tactically and lose where I might have won. That and I almost always hedge my bets, if I'm able. And finally I mix it up. I beat Scottie in a close game a couple of weeks ago by not getting aggressive and going for expansion.

At the moment, I'm struggling to think of a game in which it was a big mistake for me to get aggressive. See if you can find one and we can talk about that. I certainly have lost games in which I was aggressive, but that doesn't mean that aggression was a mistake.

Im not saying being agressiv is bad. Its always good to put presure on your opponent but can't it be so that in many games there

could be other options that are better? Why risk an early attack that might fail and now you got few cities and all the hammers you invested in that early attack is gone. maybe an later attack when you got 10+ cities with cats or knights would have been much better?

And that's what I will tend to do vs. a turtler, but top players don't usually turtle. Instead they build a bunch of lightly-defended cities. I can do the same and hope I do it better or I can go to war and take those cities faster and with more armies than they expect. The latter usually works out better.

Your games rarely last more then 30 turns because you wan't them that way. That doesn't nesecearly means this is always the right play.

I don't think needlessly dragging games out is ever the right play. Look at the games I post where I get aggressive early and you'll see that I have a very high success rate. Playing for the longer game just introduces more random elements. Say we're playing and we both want to get Oxford bombers. I get a tech advantage and beat you to Monarchy and Invention so I have three GP to your one, but I don't get a scientist. You get a scientist as your one GP. Who will win that game? You will, even though I (probably) played better. Between that and the increased chance of freezing and the fact that I don't actually have a lot of time to play, quicker is always better in my book.

[danthechan]

Yea well this is very hard to say. 2 out of 3 is more then half the barbs having grass. Impossible to prove but I'm pretty sure of that its less then half of the barbs that got grass. If you counting plains you are probably correct though. However growing in 10 turns with a barb I think is stupid. I would never, ever, ever do that..

*cheers*

alright, maybe the truth lies somewhere closer to half. i don't count plains as grass, but i do like it when the ai takes the trouble to grow those.

[JackHall2003]

Played 3 and lost 3 against the same guy this morning,.

Mongols v Zulu. I moved a couple of turns and spotted his borders from a hill. no gold so had to move back. Picked up 50g then standing on a hill spotted a nice place to settle, but problem, one of his impis in striking distance, the guy had played it exactly right passing up 3 barbs with that impi in favour of exploration. I waited a turn, be he of course came right at me. settled and lost the warrior battle.

Mongol v Mongol. Moved and settled Karakorum in a nice spot. 3 warriors out netted me 4 barb towns (3 with grass). He found me early and planted a warrior in each of my trees, but I wasn't too worried yet, had grown 2 of the barbs and was sitting on 92g mostly from friendly huts. a turn on gold and then the 1st HA would come soon enough but the game locked up, must have been me as I had to power off. who knows, could have been good.

Russia v Russia. This has to be one of the dumbest I've played in a long time. I took Zimbabwe, he got Tripoli and Fundy. I then got the 7C long before he got 100g but I just done nothing, indecisive between units/expansion the whole game resulted in neither happening particularly well. Realising I had to be on my way to work, I threw together some legions to go with my horse armies and had a failed attempt at Moscow. What a waste of a fairly decent start.

The other player did seem good (2nd account anyone?)

[JackHall2003]

I did have a decent game as the Mongols last night after playing forum.

My opponent, as all too often is the case, was Zulu. 2 warriors out for North and South and bank hammers. First barb has grass, grow it. Next barb has 2 grass, grow that.

I then met the zulu to the south (he got Paris at 3 pop). His impi army kills my vet warrior on a hill and takes a barb. I finish HBR and can immediately rush 2 hosemen in Karakorum. I also rush a warrior in the barb town just south of that. a single impi comes along with the army in tow, I kill both with the HA. My northern warrior takes another barb (so 4 barbs this game, all great with grass (3 with x 2) and trees. Grew the ones with 2 grass to get some more settlers, a barracks in Karakorum and 2 HA's patrolling.

He gets the SoC, 7C & Angkor Wat for the pyramids. Then I get the notification he has switched to Monarchy, game over.

I out expanded, produced and teched him. Under no illusions this was a 'good' win, but i'll take what I can get with Mongols vs Zulu

I'm really liking those 3 movement HA's and I had a peachy inland city with 3 mountains, 3 trees and cattle. Fantastic.

EDIT: The guy sent me an FR afterwards. If you come here and read this, sorry, but that's a total noob move with the pyramids. So much more you could have done in that game.

[JackHall2003]

I think I've seen this before. Somebody should test it and add it to Duke's thread. Could definitely be good to know!

I started a couple of player matches on my own to try and test this. twice I managed to engineer meeting The Japanese at 3500 to keep their warrior in the cap and twice I won 1-1.5 without injury

Further thinking about it, It's probably very hard to pull off getting double injured without striking a blow to the ai (they would then heal their turn, right?). I will try again.

[elthrasher]

My opponent, as all too often is the case, was Zulu. 2 warriors out for North and South and bank hammers. First barb has grass, grow it. Next barb has 2 grass, grow that.

So you grow your barbs immediately? I wouldn't recommend that. When are you teching horseback? When I get barbs that have grass, I use them to tech hbr immediately (or bank hammers if they don't have sea), then work gold until I have at least one Keshik army out, then maybe still tech or work gold for some other purpose and only then will I grow them.

Yes, Pyramids for Monarchy pretty much means you're in for an easy game. If I were a sneaky person with a 2nd account, I might do that against a forum member just for laughs, but I'm not going to pay $60 to do it.

[JackHall2003]

So you grow your barbs immediately? I wouldn't recommend that. When are you teching horseback?

Ehh... Yes, when I can, but I'm a noob. I don't know, maybe i'm missing something obvious, I had 2 barbs at that point, 5 turns to grow then 2 turns for HBR (Karakorum on water 1 turn), but then I had more pop for gold/trees? Bigger risk/reward n all that?

[elthrasher]

Ehh... Yes, when I can, but I'm a noob. I don't know, maybe i'm missing something obvious, I had 2 barbs at that point, 5 turns to grow then 2 turns for HBR (Karakorum on water 1 turn), but then I had more pop for gold/trees? Bigger risk/reward n all that?

I think you'll usually get your Keshik army out faster if you wait until later to grow. That should be your main goal.

[Legatus]

Regarding early aggression: the only time where it may not be a good move is if your civ is one that starts out weaker than your opponent's, but gets better than his as the game goes on.

Had a game India v. Aztecs a week ago.
I settle in place, explore around, eventually spot him. I actually try to walkin on him, but I'm stopped.
In hindsight, that was probably dumb, because only a kitten would allow that to happen, so the risk wasn't needed. Then again, I think it did put him on the defensive for a little bit.

I decide at first that I should go fundy legions, but realize immediately that it's not effective against the Aztec auto-heal.

I set up a choke and repel a few of his attacks (more on that later), and actually camp one of his oaks with an archer.
I expand and head towards feudalism. I actually get attacked by the nearby AI, but it amounts to little. I end up stealing a GB from it.
He actually reaches Knights before I do, but I've been banking hammers so I have to KA ready to go. I pop the Samurai Castle, go back to fundy, and kill his KA. He quits before I even attack his cities; he said he knew he was toast with that combo.

I knew it that game as long as he didn't find the Ark, I'd be in better shape as the 10 hammer settlers for India out trump anything the Aztecs have late (though I didn't really use it), and no anarchy and religion are better late than the Aztec bonuses.

And, FWIW, if he'd have focused all his attacks at me instead of going after the AI, he'd have done better, or at least wrecked my plans. The one HA he sent each time wasn't hard to take out. 2 or 3 of them might have been.

[Liam_Sutty]

Sounds very similar to my indian game against zulu. I'm near the bottom of a mountain peninsula and send a warrior out north and south after settling on a cow/oxen/3 tree combo (landlocked). The first barb gives me 40 gold so I rushed last warrior for 4g. The barb shows me another barb north which quickly disappears so I know where his army is. There is a hill choke to delhi so i return to hammers and get a warrior army on it fortified. I just about meet french with the north warrior before it's killed by zulu army but I get to threaten france for 25g before he takes them. I hammer first settlers out of delhi which grows back to 3 in 4 turns and set it on another settler. Just south is a whale/fish/dye spot so I settle it and switch to gold doing 4g+ 2growth. I had rushed earlier warriors to get that choke so I have something like 38g. I was just going to get to 60g and rush galley to explore but after 10 turns 2nd city grew and I had 78g so was worth waiting a few more turns. Hammered 2 more settlers from delhi rushed galley and put all 3 settlers on it to try for some nice islands south east. There were plenty fish/dye combos so I settled all of them and met arabs who had lots of cash. I switched to alpha and then sold it to arabs for 35g. Got a friendly for 25g and rushed a library in that whale/dye/fish city. Techs were 11-1 at this point and my galley finds AOC. I get it and first GP is a GH so I add to all my cities. I switch to tech and backfill everything below 60 beakers and get monarchy/feud and have already built a barracks as 10 hammers per turn in delhi. I was doing 32 cult per turn so wouldn't be long till my second GP all the while he has taken moscow and their 2nd city. Don't know what he was doing in zimbabwe as never saw it. I had enough hammers for nearly a full knights army so built two and sent one NE and NW for a simultaneous attack on Paris and a city he'd built. Techs are something like 17-11 now. I get a builder and rush sam castle and switch to fundi. I attack first city and overrun it 27-3 and he quit before I could even attack Paris!! This was a slow slow slow boring start but I stuck it out and got there in the end!

[newsgothic]

Liam, did you ever hit 100g? What kind of defense do you use to prevent galley drops? Were your island cities one tile?

[Frelinder]

Liam how many cities did you have when you played that friendly game England vs Dukes Russia that you won?

*cheers*

[newsgothic]

My Spain v. Arabs. Named a tile and found Mongols in 3700. Nothing but desert on my side so I decided to go beyond their city. Felt a little risky, but I had a hunch it would work out. Settle in 3500, rush warrior, declare war, take their trees, walk in 3400. Now I have cities with 2 trees each.

First barb shows me 7 cog. Second barb gives me a galley. Getting gold is a little slow until I reach 7 cities, but I have a couple of HAs by around 2500. 100g city on nearby whale.

My first warrior finally reaches the Arabs and he requests peace and offers religion for nav. Two HAs on the way... sounds like a good trade. (do you find that those who offer peace and tech trades at the beginning are not as aggressive?)

My horses finally get there and now he has an AA in his cap (it was empty a few turns earlier). But, I figure I've got 2 HAs with defending warriors in his trees and I doubt he has much else in there... I'll roll the dice. The 9 v. 9 battle makes me vet and the other HA finishes off his warrior. He takes Rome, but a few turns later and I've got his other city... he quits.

Anything you'd do differently? Is the 9 v. 9 too risky even if you have another HA?

One of those rare games where everything goes well—karma shines on me for enduring a Zulu wipeout yesterday.

[JackHall2003]

The 9v9 is correct play. You just retreat and attack with the next if its looking risky.

I would have been wary of the trade considering he gets free math, but generally those that offer to trade are not great anyway.

[newsgothic]

You just retreat and attack with the next if its looking risky.

Would retreating vet his AA?

I would have been wary of the trade considering he gets free math

You mean because of the possibility of surprise cat attacks via galleon?

[danthechan]

were is the other HA? if i was facing that i would wait and use them both on the same turn, so you could back out of the 1st attack if it looked bad. not that it mattered. everyone but him knew he wouldn't win the second he gave you religion.

[danthechan]

Would retreating vet his AA?

it would, but jack is assuming you would have had the 2nd HA to use. thats why, if it wasn't in range, waiting was the right play. if you lose the 9 v 9 he is vetted, and will be 15 when you get there with the next army. if they are both there you can retreat, give him vet, and attack his wounded aa either 9-8 or 9-4.

[newsgothic]

They were on separate tiles but both attacked on the same turn.

[danthechan]

i might be a fuddy duddy (just using the term fuddy duddy makes me one) but in that situation i would tend to take a few more turns and rush a barracks before forming the 2 armies (assuming you knew you weren't going to vet them in the field). 2 HA's rolling with at least 13.5 attack are hard to stop at any point pre pikes. plus you get the added bonus of vet galleons cruising the seas. you can attack anything short of cruisers with total confidence.

[danthechan]

They were on separate tiles but both attacked on the same turn.

then there you go. attacking 9-9 was the right call. just make sure you deal with all other units in the field before launching the 2 pronged attack. you don't want your cursor flying across the screen, giving him a chance to heal between attacks.

[elthrasher]

Tech trading in H2H is just silly. Anyone attempting it is sending up as big a red flag as the guy who picks Monarchy after getting the Pyramids.

And attacking 9v9 is fine. Who cares if you vet up somebody's archer army? Of course getting near an Arab archer army is always dangerous since it has a base attack of 6.

[newsgothic]

but in that situation i would tend to take a few more turns and rush a barracks before.

Yeah, that would have been good too. I guess his empty cap + 2 fundi HAs gave me some confidence. Plus, I could almost hear Thrasher saying, ATTACK!

[newsgothic]

Tech trading in H2H is just silly.

Would you have taken religion for nav?

[danthechan]

of course, i think thrasher was speaking to the guy offering the trade. now, if you are not planning on being aggresive, or can't because of lack of gold, giving him navigation just negates your exclusivity to the open sea. if you hadn't have been in position to form the 2 HA's you might have hammered them out only to get mashed by arab catapults. also, like you mentioned earlier, he would have only needed 3 minor techs to get free math. your trade could have landed a fundy CA next to your cap not long after you made the trade.
the trade was good because you were in a position to exploit your advantage.

[elthrasher]

Would you have taken religion for nav?

No, I won't trade at all. That he offered shows he's a noob. Fundamentalism is enormously powerful, especially in the ancient era. It adds 100% attack to your warrior and 50% attack to your horseman. Yes, Navigation is very powerful as well. By making this trade, you are both agreeing to amplify whatever map luck and/or skill whoever is in the better position has. In short: somebody is making a stupid noob mistake in that trade. Looks like it was him. This will be true of all trades in H2H. There are a scant few cases in FFA where tech trading makes sense - imagine you are Japan starting with Ceremonial Burial and the Zulu player is preparing to run you down. If another player in the game has Bronze Working, the trade makes a lot of sense. Why does he want the Zulu taking you out? It's better that you both burn lots of gold and accomplish nothing. And the trade makes sense for you. Giving up Ceremonial Burial isn't a big deal and having Bronze Working probably is what keeps you in the game. So there's that.

But you can never have that situation in H2H. It's simply you vs. him. There's no way to have an even trade. One of you is just giving away the game. If my opponent offers a trade, either it's to my great detriment or he's a noob and I don't need his dumb tech to beat him.

[ShowtekGER]

no bombers any more, elite cats in ancient, cats preferable to legions. much has happened since i last played civ rev. can someone fill me in?

[SVPM]

no bombers any more, elite cats in ancient, cats preferable to legions. much has happened since i last played civ rev. can someone fill me in?

Now when two elites play, they check what civs the other has. They look at the map for couple of seconds and decides who win. No time to lose by playing the whole game.

[elthrasher]

Now when two elites play, they check what civs the other has. They look at the map for couple of seconds and decides who win. No time to lose by playing the whole game.

Yeah, sure if we want to play a long game we'll do that.

[Zefelius]

Now when two elites play, they check what civs the other has. They look at the map for couple of seconds and decides who win. No time to lose by playing the whole game.

Such a joker!!

[Zefelius]

Two quick games with ITZ DENIED. In the first I'm feeling good because my French quickly take India in a few moves and then I grab the KT Knight. But I should have known he'd have an Arab HA by 2800 when I arrived---and thus it was dumb of me to give him a horse for bait as he overran it and then next took the knight.

In second game I have an even luckier start when my Aztecs take Athens in a couple of turns and apparently ITZ DENIED's Germans are stuck on an island so he quits.

Our two games together took less than 10 minutes!

[SVPM]

Played two games this morning both random

First Russia against I don't remember

Got a nice map see two goodies and 1 hut. Walk a bit get one hut for 25 and settle next to a barb with a nice 4 trees 2 grass spot one of them oak. I get the barb for alphabet, shhhh. Then in 3400Bc the AI zulu walk in moscow!!!

Second game Arab against DEZZI1994 roman. Takes Aztec at 3 pop in 3100 with WA. Continue with horses towards Madrid. Buy BW from them, but didn't get nav anyway. This made my 100g comes really late. The other guy drop Tripoli really late and gets nav. I retake it with cats I was building in Technoticlan. This delayed my CA a lot. I discover his empire couple of turns later with my HA. He has a nice 6pop Rome and Thebes!!! He repelled my HA and WA in Rome with AA and wall. Going for irrigation with 2 cities for the win. I get Thebes with CA and HA combo and sail back towards Rome. Attack fro hill with cats after switching back to fundy. Win the 30 VS 27 and get march for two attacks. Kill another archer and my bltiz HA finish the game for the fifth caps.

My CA was slow I build 100g + 1 settler cities. His galley drop delayed everything, but I think it was like 100 AD when my CA arrived. I wasn't sure if I should have expanded instead. I know in this game it wouldn't change anything as the guy was a kitten (copyright Thrasher), but in a ''real'' game I think it would have been good anyway.

Do you sometimes makes a AA rush as arabs. What a pain it would be for the other guy...

[newsgothic]

AA rush? Funny, never considered it. But it might be fun to try.

[JackHall2003]

Haha, nothing fun about having a vet fundy AA in your forest early.

[elthrasher]

Yeah, the thing about a vet, fundy archer army is in addition to 9 attack, you also have a base 9 defense, 12 in a forest. It's a horse army killer, that's for sure. You win attacking and you win defending.