Originally Posted by Zefelius
Ive said this before, but Zulu Zulu is more about luck. Use China. Unless he is close, or is really lucky you should win. As China you can take irrigation most games, and if the games gets to medieval it should be no problem to out expand him. I would play as China against Zulu players and then grind out long boring wins to irritate them.
I like to play one of these every few months. It's funny to be down 20 techs and then win.
Right. Whatever you do, don't play the game your opponent wants you to play. This guy Squeaks is probably pretty good with his Impis. I imagine Zef is better at most other aspects of the game, but when it comes to Impi vs. Impi, luck plays a big role. Why go for luck when you can actually out-play your opponent?
I do tend to get the Arabs in a lot of games and take them out giving me fundy.
I guess I wasn't specific enough in my posts. Most games I do get the ability to change to another government while in ancient. Which is usually fundamentalism from the Arabs.
But it might not make sense to you, but it does to me. I'd rather save on the rush costs and then settle them in medieval. Most of the time I will backfill the 20 beaker techs which puts me in medieval and then settle my other cities for the extra pop and then backfill the 30 beaker techs the next turn. I'm flexible in that regard, but I will usually rush/produce 8 settlers while in ancient (not all will be planted obviously).
Also I guess one thing that has been missing that might help some of you understand this playstyle is that i will usually find the AoC rather early (I would say at least 75% of my games). I then proceed to camp a unit next to it while I expand to that city count and then take the AoC. Maybe that will give you a better context to my previous statements.
I don't thnk AoC is even on 75% of the maps... and I doubt you USUALLY get Fundy early in the game. Demo or Monarchy probably isn't worth switching to.
Rushing settlers in ancient and settling them in medieval is a common strategy if you have a lot of gold. If you are hammering settlers you might as well be at 5 techs so you can plant them as soon as you get them.
I'm not doubting your strategy. There are times where it is the best. But it seems like either you are exaggerating the extent at which you use it OR you are playing ranked FFA which offers the largest selection of noobs in my experience.
it is amazing how many people rage quit the 1st time something bad happens. last night i had an excellent start as english. a walk-in on france, an arab quit showing me an empty cap 7 spaces east of london. then, as i explored further, senor boom's chinese HA is all up in my grill. i should have given up tripoli (with a hill next to it) but i was stubborn. i had to buy a road from london if i had any hope of holding. it was a huge risk, as if he broke thru there the road would have sunk me. he ended up getting blitz and losing while attacking wounded. then he immediatly quit. dude, your china. man up. he could have easily taken the noob india that was just north of him. he also could have come in to my area from behind and messed me up.
I understand your reluctance, but i do not exaggerate. I have gotten the AoC 8 of my last 10 games, and in my last 5 straight I have either gotten AW or taken out the arabs for fundy by 2000 bc. And a few times before that I got the GW instead as the english were in the game.
I don't thnk AoC is even on 75% of the maps... and I doubt you USUALLY get Fundy early in the game. Demo or Monarchy probably isn't worth switching to.
Rushing settlers in ancient and settling them in medieval is a common strategy if you have a lot of gold. If you are hammering settlers you might as well be at 5 techs so you can plant them as soon as you get them.
I'm not doubting your strategy. There are times where it is the best. But it seems like either you are exaggerating the extent at which you use it OR you are playing ranked FFA which offers the largest selection of noobs in my experience.
These things don't happen every game, but they damn sure do happen a lot more often than not.
Playing as the Aztecs I seem to always start by either AW, the AoC, or 7CoG every game. But this is my experience not yours. Your experiences may be very different.
The greatest joy in civ might be slowly crushing a Zulu player(hold ur tungue?) who picked up 7 cities, AW, and all capitols (America, China, Russia), but mine. And he said I was lucky.(ok so I talked a little trash at the end but its what I do). Apparently he thought it was a good idea to wait out each turn, which made double moves work really well.
I was the Germans. Moved my settler one turn next to a barb. Take it and get alph. Later on he takes Russia, and I can see his cultural borders because it was close to my cap. I decide to come at him with a warrior army because letting him run over the map isnt my style. For some reason he sends his warrior army away to take a barb, and then I double move(he can see me) to take his cap. He heads south to my cap, but I had put a militia in front of my city (built/rushed a galley), and it double wounded his WA(which was good because I couldn't get a WA in my cap soon enough unless he got one wound). I bring a second WA to his cap and retreat when it looks bad at my 4.5 to 4. At this point he has taken China, and has AW(fundie) and will soon have 7 cities.
He uses fundie to take the Americans with horses, and I see that he put his horses on a boat(I had a WA on a hill waiting for his horses and when he doesn't come in two turns I am sure he is going on a boat for my cap). I decide to move my warriors towards Washington as he is working on a second library. I double move(sort of) Washington the same turn he arrives at Moscow and my 100 g city with two vet horsearmies. Too bad for him I anticipated this. It took luck(I won two 6 v 6 battles), but in one turn I took Washington and killed two vet horsearmies.
I thought he would quit, but instead he stayed in. He brings back his horsearmy from a boat, and double moves to kill my WA fortified outside Washington(my mistake). With no injuries and only two archers inside Washington, I let him attack with fundie horses. The next turn I sell my archer, and he takes back Washington. Now things look bad for me.
All was not lost because I was the Germans and had 5 elite WA, soon to be legions with 3 near his cap. I think it will have some defense, but it had none(just a scientist and a barracks). I take his cap and 3 pop city behind it. I've also killed his fundie horses that tried to come for Berlin.
At this point I am surprised he doesn't quit, but whatever. I build a galley to go and attack Beijing. I have fundie infl. legions and will soon have Sams Castle(I got a GB).He tries building cities when I arrive at one with an inflt. legion army that is about to be a Knight army(and enough production saved in Berlin for 2 more knight armies).
I tell him to learn a new civ, and he says I was lucky and that he wasn't trying because he didn't think I was actually there. If I wasn't there who was taking all his cities and killing all his units?
Side note-Never built a settler and the game lasted into the ADs. The early boat picked up no artifacts, but allowed me to see what he was up to. This and the ample time he was giving me gave me the chance to think every move through.
Last edited by TyShine; 03-22-2011 at 09:41 PM.
Tyshine
hold ur tungue is classic, he claims no one plays this game anymore(then why does he play civrev).When he has frozen me on multiple occasions.He has a foul mouth and I got bombarded with voice text after voice text, slagging the $hit out of me when I beat his pathetic zulu.He also claims he is the greatest player that has ever walked the earth, as I said he is "classic".
We already know this, but all Zulu players(guys who almost always just use them) are very unimaginative. It's like there is another website that teaches them. Step 1: build impis. Step 2:attack everywhere. Step 3:libraries. Step 4: irrigation. Step 5:win. It's a strat that will work against a lot of players that will give them the false impression they are skilled. I would have quit the game a year ago if I hadn't found new ways of playing and improving.
I agree......
H2H match; Random Aztecs vs Spain.
Settler walk off a peninsula and run into a barb with no trees. Turn back and see a thin but of land I had missed to the west. The strip led me to the Zulu cap, which I walked in on in 3100BC.
Spanish player found a whale, fish, tree spot behind a 1 tile choke. By the time I got there, he had an AA fortified on the choke.
Got three HAs and a galley out thanks to a nearby 7cog. Galley paid for itself in spades this game! Take COL Thebes with HAs, tech'd to CoL and settler spammed the continent. He settled some deep islands and was up 14-6 in tech.
Long story short, I catch him in tech early enough to get IND and bombers. Think he thought it was in the bag, cause he was all turtled up with a settled GS and GE in Madrid. Two bomber wings and a couple singles emptied his cap. He was in modern and I'm sure replacing units was costly.
Point of all of this babbling and rambling is the lesson I learned from the game...
"If you're going for Oxford Bombers with the Aztecs, get them before modern!" Call it inflation, call it supply and demand, call it whatever you want, bombers in a city with no hammers banked were going for well over $400!!! Even with 18 cities, all working gold, plus the IND bonus, I was hard pressed to get a bomber out each turn. If I hadn't banked hammers in three cities, it would have taken a while to close that one out...
While you guys are destroying 7C Fundy Zulu players, I once again lost to a player who didn't seem so great and made some rather poor choices. I'm not crying yet, so don't give me any pathetic sympathy!But I just find it fascinating that I see players do okay while working balanced cities. How? How?
And what really amazed me in this particular game, in Spain verus Spain (JVK), was that JVK GSed Automobile at one point. Wow. I got to bombers first, and sent a whole bunch of them his way, but he seemed to have endless infantry (which he GSed just in time). So I fought the economic war with him. I also got Corp. Yes, I got Indust and Corp. How does someone beat me when I get Indust and Corp? Don't tell me. I don't want advice. Purely rhetorical question. How the F do I lose economically? I also built that wonder I never build, something about Trade doubling in one of your cities. Okay, that was a mistake perhaps---should have saved the GB for the WB. But still---I get EiTC, Indust, Corp, Currency, Banking, the wonder that doubles trade, get to 8/8 on economy first, and still lose economically. And the other guy GSes Auto. Did I mention that?
I understand my game isn't perfect, but what is it that these guys are doing well when I see players do okay even as some of them settle GPs, GS crazy stuff, work balance, build libraries, etc.? That's my question. That's what I don't comprehend. I want to know what players are doing right when they do so many things so obviously wrong. I sort of wish more of them posted here so I could hear it for myself. Weird. Again, not looking for advice at this point---just bemused more than anything!!
http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-1212...1036109&sr=8-1While you guys are destroying 7C Fundy Zulu players, I once again lost to a player who didn't seem so great and made some rather poor choices. I'm not crying yet, so don't give me any pathetic sympathy!
And what really amazed me in this particular game, in Spain verus Spain (JVK), was that JVK GSed Automobile at one point. Wow. I got to bombers first, and sent a whole bunch of them his way, but he seemed to have endless infantry (which he GSed just in time). So I fought the economic war with him. I also got Corp. Yes, I got Indust and Corp. How does someone beat me when I get Indust and Corp? Don't tell me. I don't want advice. Purely rheotrical question. How the F do I lose economically? I also built that wonder I never build, something about Trade doubling in one of your cities. Okay, that was a mistake perhaps---should have saved the GB for the WB. But still---I get Indust, Corp, Currency, Banking, the wonder that doubles trade, get to 8/8 on economy first, and still lose economically. And the other guy GSes Auto. Did I mention that?
I understand my game isn't perfect, but what is it that these guys are doing well when I see players do okay even as some of them settle GPs, GS crazy stuff, work balance, build libraries, etc.? That's my question. That's what I don't comprehend. I want to know what players are doing right when they do so many things so obviously wrong. I sort of wish more of them posted here so I could hear it for myself. Weird. Again, not looking for advice at this point---just bemused more than anything!!
BTW, can you even use a GB for the world bank? Shows you how many eco games I've won.
Good point. I feel better about that---my GB wasn't wasted at least!
I think the Internet is the best late game wonder to GB for eco victories. Doesn't it double your total gold production?Good point. I feel better about that---my GB wasn't wasted at least!
Maybe I'll get the HD-PVR when Civ Rev 2 comes out. My master plan in life is to be really good at one of these games at some indefinite future point!!
I think JVK did that. Good move on his part. I rarely play late games so I forget about it more often than not...
To even things up a little, as I'm getting destroyed lately, I go Zulu. My opponent is Egypt. He gets HGB. I find him in the 2000s. Put my first vet WA on one of his 4 desert tiles. Start placing archers on the other 3 (and militia on the only forest). Somehow in the 1000s he builds CoR. And soon thereafter also has barracks---not sure where he's getting gold. I also put 2 galleys on his two sea tiles. He eventually takes back his desert, and at one point has 16 tech to my 1. I don't worry too much even when he has a free galleon and KA b/c I'm hoping he attacks with just that, as I have vet legions. But he doesn't and keeps teching so I know I'll lose b/c he's prob heading for something like cruisers and knights.
Hmmmm... I need something more powerful than Zulu, archers and WA camped on opponent tiles, as well as galleys on their sea access if I want a fair game!!
I made an Aztec strategy a while backing saying this very thing. Unless you are getting corporation to get into modern then yeah its a waste.
You quit a game when you had your opponent completely locked down and in one city? Holy crap, dude. He can't even build cruisers if you have all his sea tiles blocked. What were you doing with the entire rest of the world at your disposal?To even things up a little, as I'm getting destroyed lately, I go Zulu. My opponent is Egypt. He gets HGB. I find him in the 2000s. Put my first vet WA on one of his 4 desert tiles. Start placing archers on the other 3 (and militia on the only forest). Somehow in the 1000s he builds CoR. And soon thereafter also has barracks---not sure where he's getting gold. I also put 2 galleys on his two sea tiles. He eventually takes back his desert, and at one point has 16 tech to my 1. I don't worry too much even when he has a free galleon and KA b/c I'm hoping he attacks with just that, as I have vet legions. But he doesn't and keeps teching so I know I'll lose b/c he's prob heading for something like cruisers and knights.
Hmmmm... I need something more powerful than Zulu, archers and WA camped on opponent tiles, as well as galleys on their sea access if I want a fair game!!
My guess is you aren't killing him fast enough. What year was it? How many cities did you have? How many did he have? Details are required if you really want an answer.
The bad buildings, stuff like temples, harbors, courthouses, etc., that bad players like to build do pay off eventually. The reason we don't recommend them is the game can typically be won before they would pay off. But if you don't kill your opponent fast enough, this stuff will pay off and he'll have the advantage.
Also, you should have your 500 hammers banked by the time you reach 8/8 on econ. Shame on you for not!
Ok Zef Ill give you an example of a game where a terrible player out-teched me(my last game played), while having a stupid mega city. I was Indians and he was Zulu.
I had a solid start. Took HGB Egypt and got 100 g in an ok time. Even got irrigation first.
Anyway he got AW for Demo and 7 cities for libraries. He beat me to a bunch of techs(his host took literacy) while most of my gold was wasted on a Horsearmy that lost to a single unit legion from the AI.
Anyway I tech up to 14 techs, build a bunch of cities. He attacks with knights, but my scouts allowed me to know where the attack would be. I rushed a road to the city he would take and took it back. I only had one cat army and a single cat with a couple of scouts, but it was enough. Anyway I never got a scientist, and decide to tech stem power. I use a GB on oxford, and use my production cities settled in industrial to send a bunch of fighters his way.
So whats the point of all this. Well I dont know, but I did want to say I got out-teched by a player with only a few mega cities. He even settled an artist. In the past I would have got annoyed by his stupid strategy that was beating me and tried for too early of an attack. Indians or not I knew I needed to buy my time and keep expanding. Also since he is a weak player his attack will be obvious. It would be better to wait for his attack then make him spend all his resources on defense.
I guess my tip would choose the right time to attack an overly defensive player.
Don't want to take away from Zef's self help session, so I'll keep it brief...
Tyshine, I find it mildly entertaining that I'm learning new lessons that you guys have known for years. I don't play the Aztecs much, random only really. But that one will stick.
It would be nice if you guys could get together and make one thread comprised of everthing I don't know...
Yes, I've learned that painfully recently, as I've lost my last 3 games where I got bombers, mainly due to a lack of stored production.
To my knowledge, a Great Builder can not be used on the World Bank.While you guys are destroying 7C Fundy Zulu players, I once again lost to a player who didn't seem so great and made some rather poor choices. I'm not crying yet, so don't give me any pathetic sympathy!
And what really amazed me in this particular game, in Spain verus Spain (JVK), was that JVK GSed Automobile at one point. Wow. I got to bombers first, and sent a whole bunch of them his way, but he seemed to have endless infantry (which he GSed just in time). So I fought the economic war with him. I also got Corp. Yes, I got Indust and Corp. How does someone beat me when I get Indust and Corp? Don't tell me. I don't want advice. Purely rhetorical question. How the F do I lose economically? I also built that wonder I never build, something about Trade doubling in one of your cities. Okay, that was a mistake perhaps---should have saved the GB for the WB. But still---I get EiTC, Indust, Corp, Currency, Banking, the wonder that doubles trade, get to 8/8 on economy first, and still lose economically. And the other guy GSes Auto. Did I mention that?
I understand my game isn't perfect, but what is it that these guys are doing well when I see players do okay even as some of them settle GPs, GS crazy stuff, work balance, build libraries, etc.? That's my question. That's what I don't comprehend. I want to know what players are doing right when they do so many things so obviously wrong. I sort of wish more of them posted here so I could hear it for myself. Weird. Again, not looking for advice at this point---just bemused more than anything!!
Regarding Thrasher's comment on buildings, I did a guide on building workshops that kind of touched upon this. You could see how long it took for one to pay for itself. Even a workshop in a one-hill city will benefit you after 30 turns or so.
Right. You can't GB the World Bank or UN.
Deferred benefits have a cost that is difficult to measure. If you spend 60 hammers on a workshop and then the game lasts 50 more turns, you could point to 20 turns of pure profit. But maybe there was a better use for those 60 hammers.
it depends on your end-game. if you are going for an eco victory then anything you spend on a iron mine/workshop/factory will end up saving you turns, especially if you have oodles of gold.
True. Econ victories are better suited to a FFA though, IMO. This is the H2H thread. I think I've only done econ victories in ranked H2H in walkaway situations. I've done a couple in player matches, but not many at all.
just had a fun game again kchaos factor. his egypt vs my spain. he walkedto end of penninsula and settled there with a couple desserts, lot of water and 2 forest. i walked a turn till i found whale+2trees. his HA kills my warrior when i meet him. my HA kills his same turn. then his WA takes out my HA, so that was exciting turn. I end up getting another HA, show it to him then get on galleon and run to arab island. lost 10 v 4 on second attack. had lots of gold and was still at 3 techs (nav, HBR, BW (from early taking of kyoto by HA)) with about 200 gold and 30 coming in each turn i decide to pick up IW and go for legions. build barracks and start rushing out 4-5 legions a turn. build 3rd galleon from barracks city to complete the fleet. right about now arabs offer to trade nav for fundi... i end up attacking thebes in 0 BC with 15 total vet/fundi legion armies... built a couple more ships and sent 3 to tripoli, 5 to athens, and 7 to thesbes. he quit right when i unloaded tho. fun game.
good thinking on your feet, going for the ancient legion spam. probably more than you needed, but there was no preperation he could have made given the extra time.
i had an unfun game last night against s4lof, or something like that. it was looking good for my greeks when i found 7 cities very early. then he showed up with a HA of a galleon. no big deal as i rushed a 2nd pike, then intended to rush a 3rd before he attacked. i almost got it done, then he paused while attacking and it was game over. he had to win a lucky 6 v 6.5 to pull off his nasty trick. do not play this moron. what really makes me mad is i already had him on my avoid list. i just forgot about it. there needs to be a way to see that before the game. as soon as you start playing you can check it on the met players list, and on the avoid/prefer setting. nothing beforehand that i am aware of.
ya i had an unfun game against him last night too. but in ours he settler walked into knights templar on 2nd turn... and that found me before i had my 2nd warrior up. couldnt think of anything i could have done. vet knight isnt bad in 3400Bc. and ya i knew it was a bit much with the legions. but i wanted to take all the caps incase he had too many more cities.
besides, "overkill is underrated"
Like Thrasher said you cant really measure this without taking into account how the resources would have been used otherwise. Its simple to measure how many hammers are saved vs. how much gold was spent on the building. However, its overly simplistic way of looking at things. This game is built on settlers and offensive units because of the multiple advantages they provide.
Well its overkill, but I like your style. I think we played teams before. My Indians vs. your Romans(our teammates either left or were killed). If I remember right you had some nice defense with a road and legions and it surprised me a bit, but my fundie HAs were too much for the last cap.
Just got to their profile and click mute. In the lobby every time after that there will be a red microphone with a line through it. I use this as my avoid list as it does not require me to keep a list and look for it. I recognize it immediately.
And I don't play that person either for similar reasons.
That is actually a pretty smart way to go about avoiding a noooooooob head.I will copy you, I like that idea.
Agreed. If I remember to do so, I will mention this trick on RevCast. It's a good one.
I thought I had him locked down... at one point I had 3 of his 4 deserts covered... but somehow he had vet horses pretty quickly and won back his desert. I think before that he even won an AA versus fortifying archer at some point, giving him a couple of desert tiles---which is decent with CoR. I don't know how he had CoR in the 1000s, unless Egypt gets their GP that early.
Anyway, I actually had most of his science covered and I still let it get away from me. I had a Zulu army in the neighborhood so when he settled his first 100 gold I attacked from a hill---something like 10-4 and I lost.
I'm pretty amazed at my own noobery! Not looking for answers right now, I'm just enjoying how bad of a stretch I'm going through---it's like a miracle from God.
Last edited by Zefelius; 03-26-2011 at 05:45 PM.
Although you guys are being nice and sharing sound advice, I can't help but add one more good story to my current slump.
As noted above, I'm using Zulu to give me an edge to balance my horrible slump, but today it was once again to no avail.
My opponent played like a super noob (we're both Zulu). I'm continually surprised by how many players leave their cities on balance, but that's exactly what he did (privatepile78, I think). And he didn't know about selling tech to AIs, which I noticed whenever I sold mine to Greece. But I can't poke too much fun at him, of course, as he did in fact win the game!
I was on a stretch of land that was pretty much blocked off from most of the map. Kind of a big peninsula. I saw him early. He went past me to America, which he got eventually, and I went in the direction from where he came, but obviously his defenses were up. I guess that was my first mistake, although I'm used to going for cities early.
I later learned that China was on the far end of my peninsula in the opposite direction. I took them in the 1000s. But my hunch is that he got a lot of gold and that gave him the lead. He also got SoC.
But still, even if I'm cramped on a peninsula, don't have much gold or access to the fun islands, it doesn't seem that a player who keeps cities on balance and doesn't sell tech to the AI should know how to win. Eventually I got knights b/c I had a bunch of dye and I GSed currency for some gold. But just not enough when your opponent is at around 20 tech to your 8 or so and he has pikeman armies and knights as well.
Oh well, I'm enjoying the ride as long as it lasts---the slump won't last forever and I have to seize the moment and bask in glorious failure while I still have a chance!!!
It's funny that this guy doing all these noob things is listed as one of the "legends of civ rev" in that thread. He was definitely one of the players I was referring to as non-deserving in my post in that thread.
Haha! These guys (Ty, Thrash, Duke, Pedal...) have been trying to help me for the last 2 years! They should know better by now!
BTW, now that REM has been inducted into Not So Great Knighthood... maybe you should seize the new title! If you can defend it you too will be recognized by all as vaguely sort of good!
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