my H2H running record...

[Hellogoodbye123]

It works so long as you have overwhelming force & do it quickly in the game. A 2-front war (or more) will stretch your resources thin so you have to be quick & powerful for it to be effective. If it's slow & weak, you're likely to lose all your units & get nothing for the effort. Better to have slow & powerful in 1 location, than slow & weak in 2 locations. Well, those are my thoughts anyway.

My guess is your cannon/cruiser attacks are considerably later in the game (1000 ADish) on average. In that case, you may be in trouble. Bombers love to take down cruiser fleets & you can have bombers usually before 1000 AD w/Oxford (usually, not always however).

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

yes its in my strategy with the french... you need 4 cannon armies and 1 riflemen at every front with cruisers.. if the war goes on too long then i suggest you go for battleships, and if you still cant finish the job.. it is game over.. you probably lost, and you'll feel like hitler in 1945.. "Game over" lol

[Pedal2Metal]

a little off topic for this thread.. but as youve been talking about the germans, i will bring it up..

i dont know why german players feel that they MUST have 3 upgrade elite armies.. the one city barrack approach will give you 8 elite (single uprgrade) knight armies much quicker and easier than only forming armies with elite units approach..

it is nice to have a blitz/march/infliltration army at a city, but i think it is much nicer to have 3 armies (blitz, march, infiltration) instead.. this also allows you to tech a little faster, as you only need 8 warriors to come out of your barrack city before you can earn over 30 beakers a turn (build legions anywhere and add them to elite upgraded legions for armies)..


also, regarding your (most players) disdain for the zulu..

have you /your son truly tried to play the zulu for victory? in ffa it is a joke.. you will easily kill 1 or 2 caps and take a ton of barbs.. free techs, gold, and area to expand.. you can build 2 armies for the cost of 1 amer horse army, plus you dont have to spend time getting HBR.. 3 of 5 games are over within 15 turns.. add city growth and + to gold, and the game is yours.. 1/2 price rifleman makes your cities incredibly tough to take in later stages of the game..

h2h is a bit different.. really i am just curious if you have ever tried them..

Good point on the 1 upgrade vs. 3 tradeoff. My son will do this in games where time is especially critical to speed things up as you're right, you can usually go even faster & get back to teching/expanding sooner. There is a tradeoff however as inf/blitz/march is an extremely powerful combination & it's like having 2 inf/march armies for the price of 1. So it all depends on the game dynamics to decide which path is the better choice. He does both but usually goes for 3 upgrades except for final 2 armies (saves a couple of turns).

Yeah, my son has played Zulu in FFA & it's pretty ridiculuous. He typically only plays Zulu if that's what random gave him or he's in a "mess around" mood, similar to myself in H2H. Yeah, in H2H, it's usually ridiculuous as well. I once got AW & went into religion. Had 2 vet inf warrior armies & took all 4 civs (3 AIs + player who was Greeks) in like 20 turns. It was ridiculuous & not fun for the other guy I'm sure. He had hoplites in his 2 cities but it didn't matter. W/Zulu I'll tend to play more aggressive like my son as 30 hammers isn't a big loss of material.

I don't mind the Zulu as a civ choice. They are a fun civ w/lots of power all through the game, not just Ancient. What I mind is Zulu as a crutch. Guys who only play Zulu are a dime-a-dozen because it always boils down to: they try to find your cap as quickly as possible & hopefully undefended for walk-in w/warriors. After that, they might go for the 1 knight army rush (since you typically have to build archer armies to prevent overrun). Otherwise, I can't remember the last Zulu player who actually took a game past 1000 AD skillfully & did something more than the typical 1-2 punch laid out above. There have been a couple but they are so few & far between as to be inconsequential & drowned out amongst the ocean of noobs. Most other one-civ players (typically Chinese/Americans/Aztecs) can at least produce a semi-reasonable game past 1000 AD. Anyhow, Zulu are fine, just a nuisance mainly. They certainly pose little challenge to the Americans so when I get walked-in at 3400 BC by Zulu when playing a non-power civ & I play the same guy again, I really enjoy playing America & watching the same guy quit before 2000 BC after I kill his 2 warrior armies & he's left to build archer armies as my horsemen rule the land & prepare to expand to 15-20 cities while he grows his 1-3 cities.

In general, I wish non-military victories were equally viable strategies in MP play but it's a fact of life that 99% of all games are won militarily in MP. I do pretty well w/Spanish but even then I tend to favor military action over going pure eco as it just makes it easier. I guess there is a certain satisfaction in crushing your enemy w/brute force that isn't easily duplicated & everyone likes that feeling.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Grayson]

I don't understand what your standards are for 50% win ratio against the Americans. I guess I'm wondering if you don't count anyone who is not skilled with them. If you are counting American players in total, then I've got that with just about all civs. If you're saying players that at least know how to horse rush well with them and can expand with them, I think I have that too with about 5-6 civs. If you are talking top players, it's probably only the top 3 civs for me, but maybe not.

I won 3 games Zulu vs. Americans tonight. 2 were pretty good players, one wasn't. I boxed them in, killed their horsemen, got caps before they could, and never let down the press. This seems to be effective. In all the games, I got a cap before 3000BC, which is probably only going to happen about half the time with the Zulu. In those games, I built 3 warriors armies, got my 100 gold at the latest 2700BC, and pretty much dominated the map.

In one game, the Americans got a horsearmy out fast, and declared war on the Japanese, who I had just found from a hill. I waited till he killed them, and then took the cap the same turn. He played on for a few more turns, but I had Code of Laws and Navigation by 1500BC, and he had no where to go on the mainland.

I think finding the Americans early is key with the Zulu. Keeping the press on to box them in as best you can on one side of the map while you dominate the rest of it is very effective. If you don't find them, then it's harder, but you've still got a shot, as long as the normal zulu game is playing itself out.

I don't really share your disdain for one civ only players anymore. I really do think it's whatever people want to do to have fun. If they just wanna impi rush, and get high ranked for that and that only, it's fine with me, I'll take some of those points of their hands . Not everyone geeks out on strategy like we do, so if they wanna play single minded strats, that's fine with me, makes it all the more easier to rank up. And you must be playing better zulu noobs than I am, because I rarely see the knight rush out of them, just impis and then they try to tech up, if they even attempt to do that.

Anyway, I stomped on SxxyBeast w/ the Chinese the other night and he was Americans. I've had a few more wins w/ Chinese vs. Americans, and they might be my civ of choice right now to beat the Americans. I hate Americans vs. Americans matchups, so I'd rather have two different giants slugging it out.

[Pedal2Metal]

I don't understand what your standards are for 50% win ratio against the Americans. .

All things being equal. Ultimately, assuming equal skill (which means in your case playing someone like my son/Kyodai/Morte, not the ranked H2H skill distribution of which you are in the 3rd sigma portion of the bell curve), you can pick any civ you like & if you're playing against America (again: equal skill), America is going to win 50%+ of those H2H matches. At your skill level, you can probably beat the ranked H2H distribution more than 50%+ of the time w/all 16 civs. So that's not a good normalization of all non-civ variables which is necessary to distill the relative civ power indices (CPI).

There are a LOT of American players in H2H, but only a handful of truly skilled ones IMO. My standard is simple: If I'm better w/America than you are, you aren't truly skilled w/America. Why? Because I'm NOT truly skilled. My son is. Kyodai is. I've never seen Morte play w/America but I suspect ihe's pretty darn good w/them too based on his 175-15 record (& probably most of those are non-American game losses or freezes) & the fact it fits his aggressive style well.

I'm NOT that good w/America but I was able to win all my games as America months ago in H2H (it was like 40-60 games in a row) when I started playing them to get to top-10 in H2H quickly. The ease of winning vs. playing other civs was simply astounding to me (yes, China & Zulu are also easy but America is even easier). It gave me some indication of the relative power of America which is undeniable even by the staunchest of opponents on these forums.

Here's my list of top civs for each format:
H2H: America
FFA: China
Teams: America (China is arguably more valuable in teams)

I like China a lot. I think they are well-balanced civ across all game types & always competitive but that's my list for top civs for each format. I can defend each one but hopefully that's not necessary. I think that it's a foregone conclusion that China or America is the strongest civ for any given format & Zulu are relegated to third place & a distant third at that IMO.

I have mild disdain for Zulu-only players. It's not because it's "bad" or anything like that, just mainly because they are so irritating in the early game & predictable strategically which means it's boring. After that, it's a don't care & I still play them, even when I'm not America although I may not stick it out if I'm playing Pedal2Metal2. If they enjoy playing them, that's fine.
I enjoy crushing Zulu w/America. Quite fun!

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[MorteEterna]

All things being equal. Ultimately, assuming equal skill (which means in your case playing someone like my son/Kyodai/Morte, not the ranked H2H skill distribution of which you are in the 3rd sigma portion of the bell curve), you can pick any civ you like & if you're playing against America (again: equal skill), America is going to win 50%+ of those H2H matches. At your skill level, you can probably beat the ranked H2H distribution more than 50%+ of the time w/all 16 civs. So that's not a good normalization of all non-civ variables which is necessary to distill the relative civ power indices (CPI).

There are a LOT of American players in H2H, but only a handful of truly skilled ones IMO. My standard is simple: If I'm better w/America than you are, you aren't truly skilled w/America. Why? Because I'm NOT truly skilled. My son is. Kyodai is. I've never seen Morte play w/America but I suspect ihe's pretty darn good w/them too based on his 175-15 record (& probably most of those are non-American game losses or freezes) & the fact it fits his aggressive style well.

I'm NOT that good w/America but I was able to win all my games as America months ago in H2H (it was like 40-60 games in a row) when I started playing them to get to top-10 in H2H quickly. The ease of winning vs. playing other civs was simply astounding to me (yes, China & Zulu are also easy but America is even easier). It gave me some indication of the relative power of America which is undeniable even by the staunchest of opponents on these forums.

Here's my list of top civs for each format:
H2H: America
FFA: China
Teams: America (China is arguably more valuable in teams)

I like China a lot. I think they are well-balanced civ across all game types & always competitive but that's my list for top civs for each format. I can defend each one but hopefully that's not necessary. I think that it's a foregone conclusion that China or America is the strongest civ for any given format & Zulu are relegated to third place & a distant third at that IMO.

I have mild disdain for Zulu-only players. It's not because it's "bad" or anything like that, just mainly because they are so irritating in the early game & predictable strategically which means it's boring. After that, it's a don't care & I still play them, even when I'm not America although I may not stick it out if I'm playing Pedal2Metal2. If they enjoy playing them, that's fine.
I enjoy crushing Zulu w/America. Quite fun!

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

China is still good in h2h to beat Americans. The trick is still taking capitals. In FFA, China could be the best because there are other people, and Americans could expand not in the same way. Reaching medieval is not easy to do. On teams, double America is ok, but China and China is really good. You can have an horse army after 7-8 turns and it's not all about luck, then you can expand like a crazy and get a lot of good bonuses. After that you only need some tactics to press the Americans and stop them. In industrial era, China gets another +1 population while Americans gets +100% price on units. Then, China can use libraries to outtech the Americans, use gold to rush units, and stop them in some way. There are a lot of ways to trap them.

However, I'm still playing H2H but more I play, more I find I should stop it.. Last game I got disconnected and I was like " ". I was still there and 30 points lost after that (the maximum)

[elthrasher]

Germans vs. Egyptians.

My son took 2 caps, Washington & London, w/warriors. Expanded & teched to Fuedalism but no strong production cities until late, 300 BC. Settled 1 production city near Thebes, the other by London. Had 6 elite (3 upgrades) warrior armies by 50 AD. However, this is where he screwed up, he forgot to get Legions FIRST & then finish Fuedalism on this turn instead of IW. As a result, he go no knight upgrades & now he's got 6 elite warrior armies. So he camps out on Thebes, gets Legions, starts teching to Religion which w/Infiltration will give 18 attack so not too bad a loss. Anyhow, get all 6 legion armies delivered + vet knight army by 700 AD. Sends in spy, attacks w/knight army, 22.5 vs. 15, wins. Attacks w/legion army vs. pikemen army, 18 vs. 18, wins (but he's got 5 more so it's inevitable even if he had lost). Thebes falls, it's the only city Egypt has due to Germany getting 2 caps & taking the land. Egypt tried to take Russia (AI) but was unable to get it done.

Notice, the above mistake illustrates one issue w/Germans. They require a LOT of micromanagment & 1 key mistake can cost you the match. My son was fortunate this time that he had already essentially won the game in Ancient w/2 caps + expanding well. Otherwise, it could have cost him. As it was, it cost him 11 turns as the game would have been over in 150 AD otherwise.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

The Egyptian player just had one city? I think your son could've afforded to make a lot more mistakes than just failing to get knights. The Egyptian player should've done anything and everything he could do to get out more cities. I assume he moved and didn't have a port to get settlers out by galley? This guy's only hope was your son getting disconnected. There's no way to win by teching up with one city against a good opponent.

Talk about a tiny island start. This guy put himself on an island.

[Pedal2Metal]

China is still good in h2h to beat Americans. The trick is still taking capitals. In FFA, China could be the best because there are other people, and Americans could expand not in the same way. Reaching medieval is not easy to do. On teams, double America is ok, but China and China is really good. You can have an horse army after 7-8 turns and it's not all about luck, then you can expand like a crazy and get a lot of good bonuses. After that you only need some tactics to press the Americans and stop them. In industrial era, China gets another +1 population while Americans gets +100% price on units. Then, China can use libraries to outtech the Americans, use gold to rush units, and stop them in some way. There are a lot of ways to trap them.

However, I'm still playing H2H but more I play, more I find I should stop it.. Last game I got disconnected and I was like " ". I was still there and 30 points lost after that (the maximum)

H2H, yes, it's possible but I still give the edge to America as they can usually get there (HBR) faster than China & have more map knowledge & therefore have more tactical options. You're still right in that China has a shot.
Lots of tactics can be used but just keep in mind that goes for both sides, not just 1 side so all things being equal, it can be a tough fight trying to take the Americans on in a pure military slugfest. Usually America will be trying to take the fight to you in Medieval to capitalize on the 3x boni. I agree if you survive this period & force them forward, you have genuine shot to outtech due to 1/2 price libraries & eventually hold your ground & get tech victory or kill them.

In FFA, yes, China can immediately expand vs. America & getting $$ isn't as easy in FFA so America gets slowed down naturally. That's why I think they are the best FFA civ. I'm amazed at how strong China is in FFA. It's like the Americans in H2H. Simply incredible really. Americans are still good but China gets the edge IMO in FFA.

I think China/America is another nice strong Team combo. I don't like the same-civ types of teams for reasons of boredom & predictability although I agree China/China & America/America are both strong but China/China probably benefits more due to teching 2x as fast. I do like the HBR trick where both civs can get a horse in 5/6 turns w/0 gold. That's a nice one. I actually prefer China/Rome myself. Can't really say why but it seems to work just fine. Of course, if you have a good China teammate, you're likely to win anyhow in Teams (I always do as I only play Teams w/my son).

Yeah, I'm losing my rank-orientation even w/Pedal2Metal now. It's too easy to get reset (I've been reset 3 times in H2H for not playing for 2 weeks each time, FFA is just random resets, etc...). That's why my son is using Germans now in H2H. Once he gets to top-10, he'll probably stop & then he'll pick another civ. I think we'll start working on a personal challenge to get each of the 16 civs into top-10 in H2H. I expect only the Mongols/French will be challenging due to all the power-civs that frequent H2H. It should be keep us interested for at least another year or so.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Pedal2Metal]

The Egyptian player just had one city? I think your son could've afforded to make a lot more mistakes than just failing to get knights. The Egyptian player should've done anything and everything he could do to get out more cities. I assume he moved and didn't have a port to get settlers out by galley? This guy's only hope was your son getting disconnected. There's no way to win by teching up with one city against a good opponent.

Talk about a tiny island start. This guy put himself on an island.

He had 1 ocean square but unfortunately all the land was towards Germany so no available city spots for a long long time (like 10+ turns of galley movement). My son sat on him from early on so he was hampered in terms of production/tech/growth as well.

Yeah, he had 2 options as my son took all the near mainland w/the 2 early caps. He could go to oceans and/or take Russia. Russia was the most logical choice given the situation. However, even if he had managed to go to oceans he still would have lost as the German armies would have simply taken Moscow after taking Thebes. Would have taken maybe another 8 turns.

I find that H2H games (maybe other formats too) are often decided in first 20 turns. If your opponent takes 2 caps & puts you on a virtual island on the mainland, you are really in trouble usually (Spanish excepted who thrive in island starts, virtual or real). I'd say this is a really good strategic ploy: get caps early, expand, & box your opponent in forcing them to build a galley & go to the oceans. You should be able to tech up to Navigation & destroy his galley before he gets too many cities settled. I'm pretty sure I've heard Morte talk about this a time or two.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[TyShine]

I find that H2H games (maybe other formats too) are often decided in first 20 turns. If your opponent takes 2 caps & puts you on a virtual island on the mainland, you are really in trouble usually (Spanish excepted who thrive in island starts, virtual or real). I'd say this is a really good strategic ploy: get caps early, expand, & box your opponent in forcing them to build a galley & go to the oceans. You should be able to tech up to Navigation & destroy his galley before he gets too many cities settled. I'm pretty sure I've heard Morte talk about this a time or two.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

When I see someones galley roaming around and I am America I just put together a galley fleet and then sell it, but other civs would need nav. of course.

When I first played Morte H2H I had less than 10 H2H games played. The only thing I knew how to do was horserush. He killed mine with his and said to be more careful, but he wont kill him. Instead he put in front of my city completely boxing me in. The only chance I see someone beating your son or a good America player is to get to them quickly. This can be easier if they start on a island, because you should have horses faster. Money + space=win for America. I dont see the Zulu as good match up unless they are very close, I can see only the Aztecs and China as potential problems.

I agree that often the first 20 turns decide a H2H game. Although I haven't played a lot of H2H, when I beat other Americans it was by going after their horses. I don't think its a good idea to try and take caps and expand yourself, maybe if your China or America yourself of course. If I played your son I would put all my efforts into killing his horses, probably building two armies myself. If I couldn't get them I would have to concede. This is the only way I see beating America with consistency. Maybe there is a better way, but I dont see it. Although stopping them before they get to medieval isnt cake.

[Pedal2Metal]

When I see someones galley roaming around and I am America I just put together a galley fleet and then sell it, but other civs would need nav. of course.

When I first played Morte H2H I had less than 10 H2H games played. The only thing I knew how to do was horserush. He killed mine with his and said to be more careful, but he wont kill him. Instead he put in front of my city completely boxing me in. The only chance I see someone beating your son or a good America player is to get to them quickly. This can be easier if they start on a island, because you should have horses faster. Money + space=win for America. I dont see the Zulu as good match up unless they are very close, I can see only the Aztecs and China as potential problems.

I agree that often the first 20 turns decide a H2H game. Although I haven't played a lot of H2H, when I beat other Americans it was by going after their horses. I don't think its a good idea to try and take caps and expand yourself, maybe if your China or America yourself of course. If I played your son I would put all my efforts into killing his horses, probably building two armies myself. If I couldn't get them I would have to concede. This is the only way I see beating America with consistency. Maybe there is a better way, but I dont see it. Although stopping them before they get to medieval isnt cake.

Our experience matches up well with your comments. The Aztecs & Chinese are the 2 civs I've seen that can cause problems consistently when myself or my son play as America. He usually still wins but they do cause problems. Zulu don't. Since this is all coming from the same statistical distribution which is the ranked player H2H pool, I have to conclude that Chinese & Aztecs are better counters to America than Zulu. I agree the Zulu can cause problems if they are close which means it's not a statistically sustainable strategy as the map-dependency is high which isn't good for statistically sustainable strategies. The Aztecs & Chinese rely more on the civ strengths which means less variance which means more consistency, i.e.: better shot.

Yes, you've basically got the Ancient Era to stop America. If you don't succeed, it's likely over especially in H2H format due to lots of easy gold & AI caps which just feeds into America's strengths. Yes, it's not easy typically. You need the right combination of aggression, strategy, battle tactics, & luck (button-pressing races, map locations, etc...) to make it happen.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zso_Zso]

I brought up that Zulu are the problem for America, and that is just my experience. Recently, I played about 100 H2H games with America trying to reach a top-ten rank coming from the bottom of the pile (I started from 0 score ~40,000 rank on ps3). During these ~100 games, I had about 10 losses by the "official" record on the board, but many of them were freezes or incorrectly recorded wins. I have been actually beaten about 3-4 times and all of those were Zulus. Granted, this statistic is also subject to the typical H2H ranked distribution pool, i.e. most games against noobs. However, it also means that Chinese and Aztec opponents occurred also frequently as these 4 civs are still the most popular (along with Zulu and America). So, the point I am making is that my experience is that the Chinese and the Aztecs could not "get" me, but the Zulu could. Of course, all of those cases the Zulu started fairly close to me. I also had 2 games where a Chinese horse army reached my cap before I found his cap. But I managed to stop the horse army in both cases. Once by rushing warriors each turn until my horse army got back to take out his, the other time by rushing an archer army before he attacked while my horse army was going for his cap.

ps: of course, it is likely that I did not fight against any strong enough Chinese player

[Pedal2Metal]

I brought up that Zulu are the problem for America, and that is just my experience. Recently, I played about 100 H2H games with America trying to reach a top-ten rank coming from the bottom of the pile (I started from 0 score ~40,000 rank on ps3). During these ~100 games, I had about 10 losses by the "official" record on the board, but many of them were freezes or incorrectly recorded wins. I have been actually beaten about 3-4 times and all of those were Zulus. Granted, this statistic is also subject to the typical H2H ranked distribution pool, i.e. most games against noobs. However, it also means that Chinese and Aztec opponents occurred also frequently as these 4 civs are still the most popular (along with Zulu and America). So, the point I am making is that my experience is that the Chinese and the Aztecs could not "get" me, but the Zulu could. Of course, all of those cases the Zulu started fairly close to me. I also had 2 games where a Chinese horse army reached my cap before I found his cap. But I managed to stop the horse army in both cases. Once by rushing warriors each turn until my horse army got back to take out his, the other time by rushing an archer army before he attacked while my horse army was going for his cap.

ps: of course, it is likely that I did not fight against any strong enough Chinese player

Yes, close Zulu can be a problem. Far Zulu usually aren't. It's all map-dependent. Chinese/Aztecs have less map-dependence since civ boni (+1 pop, early gold + healing respectively) help to press America early. Having less map-dependence is usually better for strategy development.

I appreciate the data which is great. I've always thought very highly of your posts because they are very concrete. Much appreciated.
This post illustrates lots of valuable insight:
1. America is crazy strong in H2H (90-10 or 90-4/90-3 ignoring freezes).
2. Delay tactic works well. You don't need to kill enemies in 1 turn, just delay long enough to bring counter attack either through superior defenses or superior offenses.
3. Map-dependency can't be ignored in this game. It's critical, especially in early game. Close Zulu can be a threat so one does need to be careful to determine your "safe" perimeter in a game w/Zulu, even as Americans.

I think I'm still comfortable w/my position but it's great to see data that makes that it clear the Zulu can definitely be a threat if close by.

thanks & best regads,
Pedal2Metal

[Hellogoodbye123]

Once by rushing warriors each turn until my horse army got back to take out his, the other time by rushing an archer army before he attacked while my horse army was going for his cap.

ps: of course, it is likely that I did not fight against any strong enough Chinese player

seems like you need tips from pedal2metal.. lol

[Hellogoodbye123]

well i played morte...

and i lost, yes a shocker!!..

in the chat.. he said lets do random.. then i said no.. and he said he would, and that i could choose.. i didnt want to choose america/china/zulu because if in that one out of a million chance that i won.. i didnt want to feel cheap.. so i used rome.. he was randomnly egypt, he started with hanging gardens

i made my two warriors, reached 3 pop, started researching pottery, got my 100g settlers.. settled close.

the barbs showed me the ark being like 3-4 spaces away from rome.. i find 2 good bottleneck positions.. and then i see a galley.. at this moment i have no defenses, i rush a warrior incase of a galley drop..lol turns out a whole egyptian warrior army comes out.. the next turn i complete pottery.. its pretty useless.. i have around 140gold, so i buy bronze from the greeks at 40g.. and im there rushing archers every turn.. just to stay alive..i sell my warriors and i see a horsemen army.. he never comes.. so i was safe..

surpringly i get to mansory first...and now rome is in peace for atleast 2000 years... he had like 10 turns to steal the ark from me.. but i took it from him.. after that mortes galley went all crazy trying to find mine.. atleast thats what i think.

he found soc, and agkor wat....

i think he got an artist from his culture, and a great builder and explorer from soc.. so he rushes collusses... and im guessing agkor gave him the great wall.. i think england was the Ai..

at one point he has 18 techs, 2/8 gold 4/20 culture i have 8 techs... and 1/8 gold.. luckily i get a great builder and rush the east india.. jokingly in the chat i told him i would catch up.. i never did

as the game progress it seemed like it.. it ended around 1250-1350ad me having 20 techs he had like 32..

me and jaguar are joking to see who can last the longest agaisnt morte.. right now my score is around 1250-1350ad.. so lets see if he can beat me.. lol

[MorteEterna]

well i played morte...

and i lost, yes a shocker!!..

in the chat.. he said lets do random.. then i said no.. and he said he would, and that i could choose.. i didnt want to choose america/china/zulu because if in that one out of a million chance that i won.. i didnt want to feel cheap.. so i used rome.. he was randomnly egypt, he started with hanging gardens

i made my two warriors, reached 3 pop, started researching pottery, got my 100g settlers.. settled close.

the barbs showed me the ark being like 3-4 spaces away from rome.. i find 2 good bottleneck positions.. and then i see a galley.. at this moment i have no defenses, i rush a warrior incase of a galley drop..lol turns out a whole egyptian warrior army comes out.. the next turn i complete pottery.. its pretty useless.. i have around 140gold, so i buy bronze from the greeks at 40g.. and im there rushing archers every turn.. just to stay alive..i sell my warriors and i see a horsemen army.. he never comes.. so i was safe..

surpringly i get to mansory first...and now rome is in peace for atleast 2000 years... he had like 10 turns to steal the ark from me.. but i took it from him.. after that mortes galley went all crazy trying to find mine.. atleast thats what i think.

he found soc, and agkor wat....

i think he got an artist from his culture, and a great builder and explorer from soc.. so he rushes collusses... and im guessing agkor gave him the great wall.. i think england was the Ai..

at one point he has 18 techs, 2/8 gold 4/20 culture i have 8 techs... and 1/8 gold.. luckily i get a great builder and rush the east india.. jokingly in the chat i told him i would catch up.. i never did

as the game progress it seemed like it.. it ended around 1250-1350ad me having 20 techs he had like 32..

me and jaguar are joking to see who can last the longest agaisnt morte.. right now my score is around 1250-1350ad.. so lets see if he can beat me.. lol

It mostly depend on my.. I was lazy and had 1000 gold every turn (I wasn't gaining 1000), still rushing buildings everyhere.. Then I wanted to finish you with riflemen.. However I god the builder in 25 turns and rushed colossus. When you got ark, it wasn't a problem for me.. I wanted to get it with 2 cities however it was ok. Then I explored right of you and got angkor wat. 10-15 turns later I got SoC (I knew about it) and got explorer and artist, while I got another artist normally. Then I got a scientist with invention and rushed corporation (I didn't even need university)

[Zso_Zso]

I played a fun h2h game with Elanza, America vs America. Main land was a big octopus shape, long tentacles, I started at the north end of one branch, he started at the south end of another, literally the opposite end of the world, he even thought at first that he was on a big island, but it was connected after all. There was Arab AI in the middle, English on another north tentacle (but very far on land from me) and India on another south tentacle (again far on land from Elanza). I started with GE, he started with GA. I built a horse army and took several barbs getting to 100g quickly. Was shown the Ark and AW locations by barbs, but both were in hard-to-reach places from my location. I pushed out a 3rd city from my cap after growing it to 3pop when I found Tripoli -- it was already 4pop. It took me several turns to kill of single archers and warriors in it, and when I finally took it, Elanza GA flipped it right away with my elite horse army in it. He found 7cities in the meantime, then picked up AW and got the great wall. At this point it looked pretty bleak for me: he had a 4pop 2nd cap, plenty of gold, 2 horse armies while I had none. I rushed a galley and set out on a long trip trying to get to the Ark, hoping he does not know where it is -- I did managed to grab it with 3 cities. I spammed militia to slow down his horses when I got to medieval (before COL), then I researched to COL (got it first). He tried to attack me with 2 horse armies, but he got damaged killing a forted militia on a forest so I counter-attacked with a non-vet horse army and killed 1 of his horse armies. He ran away with the other (it was also damaged, but I could not take it having used up my move and no other attack units around). Then he setup a choke with forted warrior army patrolled by the horses from behind, locking me into a small area, so I could only settle 6 cities with tight packing (every 2nd tile) and then I had to find islands, but there were not too much, only 2 1-tiles close by, the rest hard to reach by galley. So I expanded onto another tentacle close to the English under danger of culture flip, they also settled a GA in addition to the Monarchy. I got irrigation 1st, then went for knights (1st again). In tech numbers we were head-to-head all the time, but he was going for democracy and navigation while I was going for knights. I backfilled some techs so got into Industrial before I could rush enough knights (only had 2 armies at that point), so it became twice as expansive to build my armies. However, I got a GB and rushed Sam.Castle, plus used Fundy to attack him with 4 knight armies with archer army support. I could kill his pike armies but got damaged each time and he had many armies of them and they kept coming from behind (from other cities) so it was a standing-war for his 1st city, that took many turns with reinforcements coming from both side each turn. In the meantime I managed to tech to Steam (1st again) and the cruiser fleet support have finally decided the battle. However, he also got cruiser very soon after me, so again it became a close-cut for the remaining cities. But I got 2 GG for all those battles and all knight armies were ninja (I stole a GL from London). So eventually I managed to grind down all his defenses, even though he started counter-attacking with cannons at some point, I had elite pike armies defending my attack force, plus the cruiser fleet naval support (with Sam castle). I think what won me the game was that he stopped expanding once he reached democracy, but I kept expanding all the time, once I openned the choke with my knights I started filling the land towards the Indians (and taking over their cities too).

[Jaguar-Man]

H2H with hgb today. I was Spain for a change! and HGB told me he was going Aztec. I didn't belive him and was quite shocked to find he had. AI were Romans, China and Germans. Move my settler to avoid hill and still get food and trees, takes 2 turns. Get my first warrior and go NW and find barb 2 tiles away (50g). 2nd warrior goes south and finds Barb (30g). Advisor tells us Barbs have taken Rome No easy COL then, not that it would have helped me in the long(ish) run. Move my first warrior east and see Aztec culture border and a barb 3 tiles away with 1 flag. Next turn barb returns to 2 flags. Get another out of cap and send that up to Aztec barb area as well. HGB messages me that he can see me as I name desert tile. Make Galleon and send setllers off on boat trip. Meanwhile HGB sends a horse unit to my side of barb hut. By now both my warriors are on a hill next to said horses and Barb hut. We have both been in a stand off on this hut for like 5 turns. I think I'll let him end turn whilst settling my settlers and picking up KT Knights. Turn back and he's knicked the hut. Now I should have killed his horse unit with warriors but didn't (hgb usually plays peaceful). Next turn he has horse army. I'm 2 turns away from BW and now rush back with galleon and knight unit. Drop off Knights on hill and hgb takes them out, dropping warriors back to cap and fortifying whilst getting archers as quick as I can. Manage to rush my third archer just on the turn hgb attacks. I even get it to army using the partly fortified unit, but its all in such a hurry that i still only get 6 defence and lose madrid but he gets pottery as I just complete it. With my one remaining warrior I find anuther barb hut and get a spy, then find china, use spy to steal gold and get 4! Declare war on China to get them to build archers and explore what i can with warrior. Find another barb hut around where Rome should have been. Built 3 settlers in my 2nd city and find a whale peninsular to settle one on. Notice Aztec galley and attack 3:1. LOSE 2 settlers gone and HGB flips city I just made. Back to my last city and think now for some fun. HGB has taken germans by now, but lost his horse army on the chinese. My city is on a V-shaped (in the middle) 7 tile island with whale and fish, and the rest is pretty much trees with one oak next to it. I build 2 archers and then barracks and tech to construction to use oak. Then get the archer army in place. Now i build 2 more settlers and place them at each end. I now hammer out archers and block every tile with Vet Archer armies - like to see him land now. He is teching away and gets Steam with GS. I now start on Cat Armies and get one in each city as he arrives. Then it freezes - So A draw me thinks

[Hellogoodbye123]

H2H with hgb today. I was Spain for a change! and HGB told me he was going Aztec. I didn't belive him and was quite shocked to find he had. AI were Romans, China and Germans. Move my settler to avoid hill and still get food and trees, takes 2 turns. Get my first warrior and go NW and find barb 2 tiles away (50g). 2nd warrior goes south and finds Barb (30g). Advisor tells us Barbs have taken Rome No easy COL then, not that it would have helped me in the long(ish) run. Move my first warrior east and see Aztec culture border and a barb 3 tiles away with 1 flag. Next turn barb returns to 2 flags. Get another out of cap and send that up to Aztec barb area as well. HGB messages me that he can see me as I name desert tile. Make Galleon and send setllers off on boat trip. Meanwhile HGB sends a horse unit to my side of barb hut. By now both my warriors are on a hill next to said horses and Barb hut. We have both been in a stand off on this hut for like 5 turns. I think I'll let him end turn whilst settling my settlers and picking up KT Knights. Turn back and he's knicked the hut. Now I should have killed his horse unit with warriors but didn't (hgb usually plays peaceful). Next turn he has horse army. I'm 2 turns away from BW and now rush back with galleon and knight unit. Drop off Knights on hill and hgb takes them out, dropping warriors back to cap and fortifying whilst getting archers as quick as I can. Manage to rush my third archer just on the turn hgb attacks. I even get it to army using the partly fortified unit, but its all in such a hurry that i still only get 6 defence and lose madrid but he gets pottery as I just complete it. With my one remaining warrior I find anuther barb hut and get a spy, then find china, use spy to steal gold and get 4! Declare war on China to get them to build archers and explore what i can with warrior. Find another barb hut around where Rome should have been. Built 3 settlers in my 2nd city and find a whale peninsular to settle one on. Notice Aztec galley and attack 3:1. LOSE 2 settlers gone and HGB flips city I just made. Back to my last city and think now for some fun. HGB has taken germans by now, but lost his horse army on the chinese. My city is on a V-shaped (in the middle) 7 tile island with whale and fish, and the rest is pretty much trees with one oak next to it. I build 2 archers and then barracks and tech to construction to use oak. Then get the archer army in place. Now i build 2 more settlers and place them at each end. I now hammer out archers and block every tile with Vet Archer armies - like to see him land now. He is teching away and gets Steam with GS. I now start on Cat Armies and get one in each city as he arrives. Then it freezes - So A draw me thinks

lol.. yea that was a fun game on my side.. took out madrid and berlin.. destroyed your galleon.. flipped your city.. had temples everywhere.. lol

i finally succesfully horse rushed with the aztecs.. it was a little late though. 2700bc

[Hellogoodbye123]

It mostly depend on my.. I was lazy and had 1000 gold every turn (I wasn't gaining 1000), still rushing buildings everyhere.. Then I wanted to finish you with riflemen.. However I god the builder in 25 turns and rushed colossus. When you got ark, it wasn't a problem for me.. I wanted to get it with 2 cities however it was ok. Then I explored right of you and got angkor wat. 10-15 turns later I got SoC (I knew about it) and got explorer and artist, while I got another artist normally. Then I got a scientist with invention and rushed corporation (I didn't even need university)

that early attack with the warriors drain all my cash, i went from 140 gold to 4 pieces of gold.. i had to build everything..

[MorteEterna]

that early attack with the warriors drain all my cash, i went from 140 gold to 4 pieces of gold.. i had to build everything..

It was your fault.. I had one warrior army, and I had no religion. If you wanted to waste all your gold, well, next time use it better.

[Hellogoodbye123]

It was your fault.. I had one warrior army, and I had no religion. If you wanted to waste all your gold, well, next time use it better.

how was i supose to defend???????????? if i didnt rush my archers/buy bronze.. i would of died

[MorteEterna]

how was i supose to defend???????????? if i didnt rush my archers/buy bronze.. i would of died

No, you wouldn't

You payed bronze 2 times its price, you wasted all your gold, anything else?

You needed only 40 gold to set up defences, nothing else

[Hellogoodbye123]

No, you wouldn't

You payed bronze 2 times its price, you wasted all your gold, anything else?

You needed only 40 gold to set up defences, nothing else

i told him give it to me for 30.. he was like no deal..

so i had to buy it for 40.. he was laughing at me.. he knew i had to take it.. otherwise i would of died.. he could of asked for 100 gold.. i wouldnt be able to refuse..

and 40 gold?... you mean 60 to ruwsh the archers?.. and i research pottery, which helped me get mansory first..

[MorteEterna]

i told him give it to me for 30.. he was like no deal..

so i had to buy it for 40.. he was laughing at me.. he knew i had to take it.. otherwise i would of died.. he could of asked for 100 gold.. i wouldnt be able to refuse..

and 40 gold?... you mean 60 to ruwsh the archers?.. and i research pottery, which helped me get mansory first..

I tought you were a smarter player.. You are failing down now, so much..

[Pedal2Metal]

No, you wouldn't

You payed bronze 2 times its price, you wasted all your gold, anything else?

You needed only 40 gold to set up defences, nothing else

Why not spell it out Morte & write down what you would have done in his situation? I think that would be more constructive & hopefully provide you a better game next time you both play if a similar situation arises.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[MorteEterna]

Why not spell it out Morte & write down what you would have done in his situation? I think that would be more constructive & hopefully provide you a better game next time you both play if a similar situation arises.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Didn't I tell him? Just building warriors was enough to stop my warrior army. A veteran warrior army could have 7.5 defence, then, no problem..

[Pedal2Metal]

Didn't I tell him? Just building warriors was enough to stop my warrior army. A veteran warrior army could have 7.5 defence, then, no problem..

Obviously, he wasn't getting it so teaching requires we "step-up" to become a better teacher sometimes. Thanks for doing that.

So either he had a barracks in which case 40 gold to get 3 warriors takes 3 turns: 12 gold/turn + 4 hammers/turn, assuming he didn't have any other warriors around.
OR
he had a vet warrior around & then needed 2 turns to get an army.

So this illustrates why scouts are important. You need the time to build the defenses even if you have the resources. Good example.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[MorteEterna]

Obviously, he wasn't getting it so teaching requires we "step-up" to become a better teacher sometimes. Thanks for doing that.

So either he had a barracks in which case 40 gold to get 3 warriors takes 3 turns: 12 gold/turn + 4 hammers/turn, assuming he didn't have any other warriors around.
OR
he had a vet warrior around & then needed 2 turns to get an army.

So this illustrates why scouts are important. You need the time to build the defenses even if you have the resources. Good example.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

He had a veteran warrior army but he sold everything while he could press me. He had 2 warriors around and why barracks? He didn't need. 36 gold and 4 hammers per turn (pretty normal) to build warrior army already fortified with 7,5. Not hard to do

[Pedal2Metal]

He had a veteran warrior army but he sold everything while he could press me. He had 2 warriors around and why barracks? He didn't need. 36 gold and 4 hammers per turn (pretty normal) to build warrior army already fortified with 7,5. Not hard to do

Yes, you're right (vet would be 9.0 defense) but 3 turns is necessary. So it does illustrate the value of "scouting". Sounds like he was already aware you were coming so I agree. I think lots of us (myself included) don't use warriors or legions to their fullest extent. Definitely something to improve in our gameplay.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[MorteEterna]

Yes, you're right (vet would be 9.0 defense) but 3 turns is necessary. So it does illustrate the value of "scouting". Sounds like he was already aware you were coming so I agree. I think lots of us (myself included) don't use warriors or legions to their fullest extent. Definitely something to improve in our gameplay.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

I've used warriors a lot of times to take capitals with no use of Zulu/Arabs/Egypt.. And that works really well.. However he had time to defend.. Last time defence is not good unless you can build army and get fortification

[Hellogoodbye123]

it wouldnt of help, true i had one veteran warrior, like 4 spaces away from my capial.. but when my non ve warrior came close to rome, you attacked it.. so I wouldnt of had a chance.. archers are build for the same hammers.. so i was playing a good defense.. i didnt want to build the army, and gamble by losing to your warrior army, you were fortified in my forest square.. so it be pretty hard..

[Jaguar-Man]

it wouldnt of help, true i had one veteran warrior, like 4 spaces away from my capial.. but when my non ve warrior came close to rome, you attacked it.. so I wouldnt of had a chance.. archers are build for the same hammers.. so i was playing a good defense.. i didnt want to build the army, and gamble by losing to your warrior army, you were fortified in my forest square.. so it be pretty hard..

I think you are catching the over cautious bug from playing me too much. That is something I must stop doing - over defending

[Jaguar-Man]

Sat in lobby for ranked H2H. Opponent came in and left on countdown. 10 minutes later game starts with just me

So turtled away for tech win with America

[Zefelius]

Sat in lobby for ranked H2H. Opponent came in and left on countdown. 10 minutes later game starts with just me

So turtled away for tech win with America

Talk about turtles: I played against a Japanese player today who watched me beat the other civs after I took his cap. He sheltered himself in one island city up by the north pole which I hadn't even seen until around 1000 AD or so. I guess we're both getting strange opponents!!

[Grayson]

here's a match worthy of posting :
I got French from random on my "test Grayson" account, against a top 30 player (Asmodeios), he had the Chinese. I thought, oh well, I'm screwed.

So I built a warrior and set research to HBR, I figured a horserush might be my only chance. I got a barb, and quickly realized I was on an island w/ the Zulu, with nothing else. I took the Zulu at 2700BC with my horsemen and built a galley.

I send my galley to the south because I saw the Ark there, but to my surprise, all I found was a Chinese settler. So I dropped my horsemen there, taking the city and getting Writing. He had archers, so I went south. He only had 3 cities at the time, all with temples, but he was kinda blocked into a corner, w/ the mongols to the south, and no good spots to settle.

I took one mongol city, and started getting some techs before him. I got irrigation first, which was a nice boost. I got code of laws first too. I then set my research to navigation, and started pumping out archers to choke off his cities, I camped out on his resources, an archer army on his cattle, and choked him off to where he couldn't expand. He only had 2 sea per city, so I had him tied up, I sent a few galleys down to choke those out, while I teched slowly, but making sure to get all the bonuses.

He got a GL in his biggest city, and built some super legions, eventually taking my mongol city, and then the mongols, all with the legion army with march, infiltration, blitz, and a GG.

I started expanding to the ilsands, hammered out HGB in Paris, and then stole a GB from from the Greeks and rushed EIC.

After that I was making 256 science per turn and had all the good bonuses, and the GPs were rolling in.

I got two GSs, one from 500 gold, and one from invention, in subsequent turns, and held onto them. A few turns later I got Metallrugy, and GS'd Comustion and Corportation, and he quit.

If i hadn't gotten that settler, I would've been dead. But I also think that pressing him, as I know to do against Chinese player that just go on auto-pilot, that I could be in the game. Eventhough after he took the mongols out and started expanding to more cities than I had, and I was killing him in tech, and slowed him down just enough to beat him to tanks or riflemen, had I been about 10 turns slower, he would've probably been able to hold on.

It was fun, vive la France

[Hellogoodbye123]

the matched required zero skill.. u got lucky and thats how your supose to play the french.. hold out ur hands, with ur eyes close and let the magical present fall on them... works everytime

[Zefelius]

the matched required zero skill.. u got lucky and thats how your supose to play the french.. hold out ur hands, with ur eyes close and let the magical present fall on them... works everytime

I used the French for the first time tonight. My first "present" in the first game was the fact that the other guy quit after a couple of turns. I think he couldn't find a good spot to settle city #1. Oddly, he was French too, which I didn't really expect with my first use of Napolean. My second present, against the same guy, was the artifact AW. I got the Great Wall. He got 7 Cities and later on the City of Atlantis with the Romans. Unfortunately he didn't know that the Great Wall = Peace, as he ignored all my diplomacy requests and furthermore requested a couple of times that I "go raster." Ha! I was actually moving "raster" than him half the time. Oh well. I think I would have kept up with him on tech if he didn't keep ignoring those requests. I won some battles with warrior/cat traps, but it wasn't enough.

Maybe next time I'll get better luck like Grayson and actually know what to do with that luck!!

[Hellogoodbye123]

how was ur mind set those games?.. were you confident? if u read graysons post he clearly says "im screwed" u have to be humble to get a bigger present.. that was your problem there.

[elthrasher]

I've been playing a fair few H2H player matches against the headless 10, had one against MadDjinn and a few against Grayson a while back. I've observed that it's really tough to have an evenly matched game. My game against MD was the closest I've had. Most of the time one party just completely dominates and it's really just a matter of how long that guy wants to play with his food.

I think that's why I prefer FFA. It's tougher to gain an unstoppable advantage while there are good players remaining and it's easier to make a comeback after a slow start.

[Grayson]

how was ur mind set those games?.. were you confident? if u read graysons post he clearly says "im screwed" u have to be humble to get a bigger present.. that was your problem there.

I kind of agree with this. And I know your just joking, but I'll run with it

Whenever I'm using the French, or some other weak civ, up against a power civ, or just about any civ vs. the French, I always say "I'm screwed". Whenever I start to do well, or if I start to get an advantage, I get cocky, and start to disrespect the other player's skill.

I'm always thinking "I should be dead by now, or losing really badly." When that doesn't happen, then I try to analyze if I'm really winning, or if the other guy is just laying low and scheming up something powerful. If I can't find what that is, then I start thinking of how I'm gonna win based on my analysis.

In this game, I don't know if it was the other guy's skill, or just a bad map for him (my starting spot was worse, but I stole his settler and then chocked him out). Then I was sure that he'd just build a galley and expand, or come kill my city that I stole. When he didn't do that, and I was able to start getting techs and was able to expand more, I realized that I could tech up easily and get a huge advantage.

Once he started taking the Mongols, I still knew that I could get tanks and all the other good bonuses first, but if the game had lasted a while longer, he could've matched my tech with half priced libraries, so it worked out.

I think mindset can actually play a role in games, but I'm a psychology student, so I think this kind of stuff affects pretty much everything we do. I don't believe that I'm gonna get lucky, I've lost enough with the French to know that that doesn't help. I just know that when things are going my way with them, it helps my confidence, and helps me not make dumb moves that I often make when I feel like my chances of winning are bleak.