i hear ya zef but i also understand the dirty feeling 1 gets 2 try and keep rank, i played 2 games last night against a known zulu user using french and luckily won, and now i have decided 2 run for flashgordans(brent33) spot so until i lose 30 points il be using power civs for the next few days, and i also get a bit petty when i lose 2 a stronger civ , but hey thats life
I haven't played a game for about a week, I have been busy with work.I need to play some forum members because just like xbox ranked H2H is not much of a challenge.Originally Posted by Mawpawk
Mostly I get pesty with the players who never mix it up. In the last month I've prob used power civs less than 2%, but last summer I used America for about 30 games straight to see what they were like, and I remember winning all those games except one. Also, when I got the Arabs into the top 10 I probably used power civs (China and Zulu) in 15-20% of those games to help give me a little nudge. So it's not like I've been pure in any way. But I get so tired of playing some players who've been using almost all Zulu last year as well as this year. I'm not suggesting it's immoral or anything drastic like that, but I think after a while I start losing respect for them because I think they're afraid to branch out. It's as if they're trying so hard to prove their skills and their worth, because they have to be in the top ranks, but never have the courage to take a chance and try a more challenging civ. This, obviously then, does NOT apply to you.
Nor does it apply to truly, truly bad players. As Thrasher has said many times, some players may need Zulu or China to play an okay game. But I think the top 30-50 players are a different story---especially those in the top 10 or 20. I say that because those players are good enough to know the basics of the game and win the vast majority of their games. But several of them absolutely refuse to use other civs. That can only be because they are afraid of losing rank---which to me is ironic since they are simultaneously trying to earn respect and prestige for an accomplishment that isn't all that demanding or noteworthy, i.e., getting the Zulu or Americans or Chinese into the top 10-30.
P.S. This is why, conversely, I have respect for players like Chief and Jack. They both used to play power civs quite a bit (Chief with America and Jack with China) and they both got into the top 10. Jack then took a chance and now uses all the civs. And in my experience with Chief he too mixes it up and is willing to risk his rank by using India, Egypt, and so forth.
I agree with everthing you have said Zef, players in the top 30 should mix it up a bit, and when they do the game will become fun all over agian.When i stopped abusing china i had to play catch up, playing power civs doesn't require much skill at all.Once you know how to use them, you really only need to use a power civ at %50 and you will win most ranked H2H games.
Im not having a go a Lord P, im just saying playing power civs became boring to me, and to alot of forum members.Your'e lucky Zef that you started off with the lesser known civs.Because playing power civs can be very addicitve, and when your'e in rank mode no other civs come close, nor do you even think about using a non power civ.
It's funny you left out my post script, b/c I actually gave you kudos for doing exactly that---taking a risk and branching out. I always think of you when I think of players who were already good players, in the top 10 with a power civ, and yet decided to make a leap into new territory. That's one reason why I respect you and your game.
Anyway.... just finished one of my luckiest games ever: I'm England and the other guy is Rome. I move my settler to dye and two trees---even just one tree would be fine of course with England.
Then I find 7C.
And then I find the SoC for... a GA and a GS. Holy Crap!!!!
So I flip a city that was far, far away from me, start building knights at around 1500 BC and attack him from within his empire. No hope for the guy. I can't imagine a better start for the Brits, although I'm sure a few others have done better.
in 40-50% you see a friendly in 4000BC? you must know some kind of secret, then, as this absolutely is not the case when i move the initial settler. i think i can state this quite confidently. don't you think you're exaggerating a little? i'd say 10% of the time would be a good rate. if i move around until 3500BC, i don't think i will have found a friendly in "most" cases. i gotta find the thread about this issue.
"Try the punch, it's great!" How did you know I was going to say that?P.S. I know what you're going to say Thrasher so don't say it!!!
You should try playing that Egyptian guy who gets taken out by the AI. It'll make you feel better.
You're unlucky then. I get at friendly at around that rate. Moving makes for a very strong game. It can backfire sometimes, but not very often once you get the hang of it. I am taking an early AI cap in a lot of my games thanks to moving my settler. Here's a rundown of my games since my most recent reset.
Game 1: settled in place due to getting random America (no need to compound on broken bonuses), but got a galley-drop on the AI anyway.
Game 2: random America again and opponent decided not to play.
Game 3: moved and didn't find an AI, but found opponent's wandering settler shortly after I settled.
Game 4: blocked on a peninsula by a barb.
Game 5: moved and got Madrid and Navigation out of it.
Game 6: settled in place due to getting random Zulu against Greece and walked in on his cap anyway.
Game 7: settled in place again due to getting a stupid overpowered civ again.
Game 8: moved and found nothing.
Game 9: island start.
Game 10: moved without finding any AI but got massive map knowledge and a good spot to settle.
Game 11: moved and got Madrid and Navigation.
Game 12: didn't wander far; forget why.
Game 13: walked a little, but stopped because I thought I might be on an island.
Game 14: walked to find AI America and got the walk-in.
Game 15: walked to find AI China, but opponent died before I could take it.
So in five games I basically stayed put. That leaves 10 games where I moved and I got AI caps in four of them. That's about right, I think. I would have moved in those other games, but America vs. Spain and Zulu vs. Greece is already so unfair, there's no reason to try to grab additional advantage.
i'll have to take some notes to get a hard number. in 2 games last night i had a 1st turn friendly in 1 of them. i know its way more than 10%. if i tempered my estimate then i would still confidently stick with 40%. it isn't a secret but i do get a good feel for which way to move to find the treasure.
yes, it's sounds interesting and should also add some more fun to the game as doing nothing the first three turns and doing not much for the next few turns can be quite boring. i will try to do it more although my experience tells me that i will often have difficulties finding a spot i can be satisfied with.
i played three games yesterday, first time after almost half a year. planning to get into playing again. only wish i was on xbox. albeit it's prolly better for all of your egos if i stay on the ps3.
that's strange. i will keep an eye on that. usually i find that barbs appear more often than friendlies and in 10% of my games neither barbs nor friendlies are nearby. you can look two tiles far with your settler, right? so in order to find a friendly in 4000BC you would have to have it within 4 tiles. sounds unlikely to me at a rate of 40-50%. but i will see.
Not a bad success rate. I used to move further in order to get close to AIs, a few months ago, but I seem to recall some bad luck, as in reaching an opponent early before I have gold, bumping into an AI's early warrior thus making the walk-in difficult and simultaneously noticing that trees aren't close by---or even if they are my forming a warrior army wouldn't seem to be any faster or better than if I had settled earlier for gold and HBR research in order to take out the AI maybe a few steps later but thereupon having a vet HA---or actually finding an empty AI cap but not having gold and thus having to wait until it's too late.
All those reasons, poorly described as it's been awhile since I tried more AI walk-ins, have motivated me to settle almost as soon as I have a good spot--further away from the poles, or two trees near a barb, sea tiles near a great artifact--b/c then I figure I can get gold quick, do quick research, and still grab an AI with a HA with less risk.
But as you and others have such a high success rate, I'll need to revisit my earlier approach and see if there's a dependable way to circumvent some of my earlier problems.
P.S. I knew you'd say something about the punch!!Actually, my hunch is that you would say that in 95% of most games there's no reason to worry about close Zulu or power civs, and that proper tactics will take care of most situations against the average players in H2H who don't take advantage of their broken bonuses. Am I right!?!?
Depends. A Zulu player who knows how to find you early, take your barbs and camp your trees is going to be really tough to beat. Even if he goes and rushes libraries, hardly expands and techs up to Combustion, he might get you before you do anything useful. But if you have some distance or get 100 gold before the Zulu finds you, you should have an easy time of it. Kind of the same with the Aztecs, but they can be dangerous longer.P.S. I knew you'd say something about the punch!!
When playing from any kind of deficit (be it playing against a superior civ or a superior player), you should always move. You need to gamble on a lucky break. When I random France vs. America, you bet I'm settler rushing somebody.
On a scarcely related note, what is it with these America players who settle their GP after like five turns. Are these guys smart enough to walk their GP around to explore but then not smart enough to know that settling is the worst thing you can do?
I shouldn't post when im half a sleep, I started a new job and have been working too many hours.
I have the same respect for you Zef.I didn't take the post the wrong way, i was just trying too show my man Lord P, that you will get more respect if you convert to non power civs.
P.S. thankyou for your kind comments.
Your'e a top bloke professor Zefelius.
Ok, I just played a ranked h2h game which was funny for me but not for my OP.I went random got spain, cool for me, my OP picked china.I was like this is a good match up, but he was a noob.He did his typical chinese city spam, but he had no defences, and i found 7cog, game over, i took rome got COL, settler rushed at the start took zimbabwe, by 1800bc i had 9 cities, 2 of which had whales and I was in COL, anyway what made this funny was that my OP sent me texts asking me for peace, and basically begging me not to take his last city.I had to laugh
It's China night! Why didn't anyone tell me?
First I got The Henge against a guy I've played a few times. His tag is kind of generic and I can never remember if he's good or not. Anyway, he had hbr fast and took over Berlin pretty early. I took a walk and was notified of the Seven Cities. Can't really beat that. I parked it at a 2 tree, 2 water (not much else) spot and noted that I'd been Henged as per usual. Okay, fine. I built a galley and went got the money, got a couple of horse armies together. I scouted with my galley and found Beijing defended by an archer. I figured I should be able to take it with my two armies. Turned out I only needed one. I got Beijing. He took Zimbabwe. I went looking for him. I found Berlin with an archer army and kept moving as neither of my armies were vet. Just after that I found Rome with only single archers. No sign of my opponent's horses. A friendly gave me CoL and I was maybe about to get to Literacy first when he quit. Yeah, sucks to lose your cap, but he had two others and presumably 100g settlers somewhere. I think he could have tried to come back.
I got Germany in the next game. I walked a little ways and got 10 gold and settled right next to Beijing. We had a big warrior fight that I ultimately won.
Back in the lobby. Same guy again and I got Germany again. Weird how that's been happening lately. This time I settled two tiles from Tripoli, walked in and got Religion. I got a march warrior army that I failed to make useful, but I put together a horse army and took Spain for Navigation. My opponent pushed some warriors at me, but I had lots of gold to rush units and kill them. Then I beat him to the Ark and galley-dropped one of his cities and he quit.
I love stomping China players!
Hey Jack, when do you usually play(GMT)? Im quitting my job this week so ill have some free time for civ rev! Im looking forward to playing you.
I can play sunday.I will look for you online.I look forward to playing you too, should we go random or pick a civ before hand.
During the week is tough for me, I just started a new job and have been working extra hours, im the newbie at work, so I gotta show them that I wan't to be there.
after seven absurd ffa games, which all ended in the horse rush phase (with me winning) except for one, i have now started to play h2h again. in the first game i immediately received a challenge. unfortunately, this wasn't at all due to my chinese opponent who is a total library building noob but to the fact that i was on a goldless 10 square island with india. well, actually it wasn't a challenge at all, it just took longer. that noob could have killed me anytime with warriors, legions, horses, cats or knights but chose not to. alright with me. i got my first gold after 20 turns or so, mass expanded and crushed his 1 warrior defense with vet oxford bombers and he quit at an instant. derp! seems like i could have ended the game with legions, horses, cats, or knights as well! this opponent is not worth 1 hour of playing.
looking forward to good players!
i do have to say that h2h is more challenging. but what's up with the lack of sportsmanship? two times my barb reward was stolen. the one time the guy seemed conscious about it but avoided admitting it, the other guy said, "lol whatever, it happens get over it". of course, both experienced abasing losses, much to my pleasure. but i've also played one forum member here who didn't know it was me because i use a new account, who stayed in the game after he lost, apparently to make me leave and get a loss. he didn't answer me but left after he received my message. he still doesn't know it's me.
good competition, fast games, but low sportsmanship!
moving in the beginning turns out okay. i still have problems walking in on ai caps, though. i often do not get enough gold or find it hard to predict when a warrior is going to be in the cap. in my last game i had to win 3-2 with an arab warrior from a hill. tripoli was in the crappiest position ever. had i lost that battle, i would've lost the whole match.
At first I read that as a "godless 10 square island." Haha!
Too bad about the bad sportsmanship. Did those players steal your barb rewards while you were vetting up?
It's frostingbarbs and marshmallowmesh. I've already kicked the other guy (the other turtle) off my friend's list. I tend to keep my list short, but you seem pretty cool and it would be fun to play you!
yea, they were. i hate when people do that. it happened twice in 5 games now. pretty high rate. one of those who did this also paused the game once every turn. don't know why. maybe an attempt to cheat?
the goldless island was godless too, i can tell!
the problem with all this cr*p is we want to hold ourselves to a higher standard or fair play, but some guy not on a board will think if the game lets you do it then its fair. nobody is dumb enough to think freezing is fair play but to a novice they have no reason not to take the bard reward.
Yup, that's cheating too. When people pause it often during early turns they're doing something with barbs from what I've heard.
And attacking cities, or attacking anything.
true. but people should admit that they're doing something wrong when they are told. though, i always turn into a flaming monster when this happens to me, so not so surprising when people are stubborn about it.
wow. do you know more about this? i.e. is this cheat supposed to freeze the game or to make you gain some unusual advantage? the latter would suck most.
Typical day at the grindstone. I played an America guy twice. Man was he bad. First I got China and galley-dropped him after he attacked my militia 1-1.5 and lost. He had settled on fish with one tree and settled his GS. When you see my militia, by all means don't bother with defenses. I'll probably be fooled by that GS. Hmm...I dunno 0.5-0.0 those are tough odds!
He was in the lobby again so whatever. I got the Aztecs and decided I was going to settler rush somebody. I wandered a long way and picked up 50 gold, settling with 75 ha. I settled by London which was on an island so I decided to execute the first ever settler rush galley drop! But apparently the Londoners knew there was nothing to find and their warrior stayed home. I had to hammer out two more warriors (fortunately settled on trees) and then do the ol' 1-2-3. At which point my opponent starting screaming profanities at me over the mic.
I put my warriors on my galley and went looking for this fine gentleman gamer. I rounded a peninsula and saw I'd gone on the wrong side. Couldn't galley-drop him from that side. I moved my militia by his city. Again on fish and guarded by a great scientist. Such a good strategy. So I figured I'd see how trusting he was in that scientist, loaded my army back up, sailed all the way around the peninsula and then galley-dropped him! It's just comedy, man.
After that I played the China player from yesterday. I got the Arabs, found a friendly right away and settled two tiles from Madrid. It was so close I might have been able to do a walk-in by settling in place. So I got that and Nav. I quickly took out Berlin and Moscow as well. Figured I'd give my opponent a chance to catch up a little. He was at 2 techs while I was at 6. Obviously a lot to learn. I moved my galleon next to his island city and he quit. I guess he knew what was coming, so that's progress!
My next lobby contained TheDragon1520. Sure, why not. It would be cool to beat him, even if he tries some of those tricks everyone says he likes to pull. Alas, I got Japan and he had America. Not really a favorable match-up. I went for a settler rush and settled by Rome. I had no gold, but I did the 3200 BC walk-in, which I'm thinking was maybe just too little too late. Meanwhile he got Seven Cities. He didn't attack any AI. I was a turn off horseback when he dropped Rome. I still had just 60 gold. Maybe I should have gone for Bronze or a bunch of warriors or something. Anyway, he had an infiltration horse army and a single horse. I had to finish horseback in empty Kyoto (highly dangerous!). The only thing more useless than horseback riding tech in this situation is 16/20 on horseback riding in this situation. I had some hammers banked and some gold. He moved a single horse at me. I killed it off a hill, managed to get out of the way of his army and then won the button race next turn to do 3-6. Yeah, that didn't work. I managed to rush a second horse even as he took Kyoto. I didn't get the fight, but it would have been 12-1.5 so I can't complain about that too much.
Not sure what I could have done differently here. Maybe he's bad at the long game and I could have done archers and legions or something, though there wasn't really time for that. I think I was right in just hoping he wouldn't find me in time, though I could have built more warriors and tried for four warriors defense I suppose. Anyway, he didn't cheat (or need to) so I guess I have to keep playing him until I get a better game.
I played one more and got the Arabs against Spanish. We both settler walked and met in the middle. I had gold and he didn't.
Oh yeah, thankfully my favorite civ switched to Japan after that game. I am not an America player!
i lol'd my ass off reading this.
we all know it. but there's one problem: don't you, too, think always playing noobs gets boring at some point?
Yes. I can only play about five games in a stretch. I think I'll play some more hoping for good competition. Somebody save me from this with a player match!
i should stop being such a moralistic wuss when i myself am not better. in my last game, we both wandered around a bit, saw each other, and met in the middle of our newly found cities with a warrior on a hill (him) and a horse in a forest (me), respectively. i had two spots to go for his empty capital so it was time for button racing. apparently, we moved simultaneously because after he bet my horse 1.5-1.5, i had an invisible horse in front of thebes. and walked in! my moral logic was something like, "if we walked simultaneously, it's unfair that i have the disadvantage". funny, how moral laws can be bent according to the one who makes them. i vaguely apologized.
I got that China guy yet again. This time he went America. I got the Aztecs, walked a couple turns and settled right next to Madrid with 70 gold. All too easy. He quit again. I've directed him here to improve his game.
I got the Greeks vs. Zulu in my next game. Worst match-up ever! I was going to do the ol' "I'm not really all that Greek" strategy, but when I moved my settler I noticed I could settle by two fish, oxen and three trees (as well as various additional sea tiles and grasslands). That is pretty sweet. Turned out I was on an island anyway with Seven Cities close at hand. I had grown up to 4 pop, rushed a library, settled my other city on yet another fish in medieval and would have had Irrigation in a couple more turns, but my opponent just quit rather than face my ferocious Greekness!
After that I randomed French and my opponent had the Mongols. Nice match-up (but his advantage). I moved my settler a little way and found Beijing. I tried the 1-2-3, but lost on the 3rd one at 3-1.67. Bah. Good thing about stupid China though is you camp his trees and he'll just grow. So I actually went back for another 1-2-3 and won this time (on 2 actually). All that took nearly 20 turns, but I got a 4 pop city and Writing, so that's a fairly good use of my time. I put together a horse army, then worked on settlers in Beijing (4 pop = 2 settlers in 10 turns). Meanwhile my opponent had gotten 100 gold surprisingly fast for the Mongols and I found the other two AI, Japan and Colossus Egypt.
I tried rushing Japan, but a stupid wall appeared the turn I wanted to attack. I guess I got there a little late. No idea why Japan was teching faster than Egypt, but they actually got to Irrigation first too. Weird. Anyway, my opponent must have gotten Confucius because he GS'd Code of Laws. Good move. I had to slowtech it. I then got Literacy, which gave me a tech edge, I think. I saw he was building lots of archers. I wasn't. If he'd put those hammers into keshik, legions or settlers, I think he would have beat me. He did beat me to Navigation (another GS) and Monarchy (I knew because he switched). I figured okay enough's enough. Paris was a production town without many trade tiles and I already had a barracks there. I got catapults and a vet galleon of my own and went and took his nearest city. He just quit. Too bad. It was a good game up to that point.
Last edited by elthrasher; 01-15-2011 at 05:25 PM. Reason: forgot about 2nd game
you mean attacking with 1st warrior, 2nd warrior, and then as an army after retreating a lot? how often do you use that?
also, what if you get hbr from a hut instead of gold and aren't able to settler rush? do you build a warrior or a horsemen when you have two trees? this situation seems to come up fairly often in my matches.
I'm pretty sure that's what he means. The army has good odds against the injured opponent. And I imagine that's what makes settler rushing even easier if you end up with trees but no sea tiles.
Yes, that's what I mean. I'm doing that a lot now although several times I've taken a cap with just two warriors. It seems like two warriors have pretty good odds even against 2.5.
I never take horseback from a hut anymore. I prefer gold. I can get horseback quickly once I have two capitals. The gold is better because it helps me take a capital faster.
I played a couple more. Spanish vs. English. I had a nice start and my opponent quit. Bleah.
Then I played that guy who I've been beating the past two days. This time we chatted a little and I figured I'd take the game at a slower pace, make more of a game about it. He was back to China and I got England.
Well, turns out that his early game was weak but his mid game is pretty good. That was unexpected. You don't really see many players who get better later in the game. Anyway, I didn't bring any pressure because I wasn't expecting anything and he expanded a bunch, then build libraries. I realized how bad it was getting and tried to get to modern/cruisers fast, but he attacked me before I could get there and I started losing cities. I did get a cruiser fleet but was still at just 23 techs making a paltry 60 per turn. I had a cat army and went to try to get one of my cities back to increase my tech rate. I figured I should have a scout by London in case he was bringing more knights. I climb a hill. Oh look, tanks. So London fell. I tried getting it back with my catapults, but since I wasn't in modern yet, they weren't strong enough to beat tanks. He brought up a cruiser fleet, which I sunk, but then he started making battleships in London. Oh well. No mercy next time!
Played three more. Romans vs. China, but turns out China didn't actually want to play and quit the first turn.
Next was fun. I got Mongols vs. Aztecs, somebody I'd played before and in fact played Mongols against before. He always goes Aztec, kills somebody with a warrior army, then turtles and works on culture. Not the strongest opponent. I moved my settler of course and was notified of the Seven Cities nearby. This is why moving is so strong. I was able to completely change up my strategy based on that. I took it early and got several horse armies out. Didn't do me much good though because he had built lots of archers. I tried attacking Moscow but got unlucky.
So I expanded and teched up. Late in the game one of my Keshik armies found a bunch of his cities. He'd expanded some and each city was defended by a single archer. I tore through them for the fun of it. Didn't matter because I was about to GS Industrialization and have bombers in a few turns. Funny thing is I didn't have a GS, so I stole one from Moscow, then I got one for Invention and one for 500 gold. So I had these three scientists and two artists in my capital (there was never a city I could flip). I got bombers and GS'd Corporation, but he quit before I could do anything.
Then I got Zulu vs China. This guy was another slow-teching turtler. Good thing because I'm not very good with the Zulu. I got a walk-in on Karakorum and a decent barb town, but I got unlucky and lost at Paris. My opponent rushed libraries and teched Irrigation. Then Paris' culture started becoming really annoying and one of my cities flipped, another was about to go. My first GP was a GL (unusual for Zulu, I think) so I was working on elite catapults, but I was getting horrible promotions. Gosh, should I take guerrilla or medic? Anyway, I almost wanted to go take out Paris, but that wouldn't really advance my cause. I was heading to Beijing when my opponent quit. I dunno, maybe because I got Monarchy first or something.
I'm ranking up fast now. Just three points behind Zef!
You'll be in the top 10 again in no time at all. Indeed, one of the historical great accomplishments should go to you: first, if I'm not mistaken, to reach the top 10 via random.
Hey, have you read the recent Grow Your Mind article in Newsweek. Apparently they recommend aerobic exercise, meditation, and certain video games like Rise of Nations and Space Fortress. If I'm not mistaken, the first is a bit like Civ, so it looks like we're all getting a little smarter each time we play!! Ha!
I win plenty of games, but for some reason I like to relay my horrible ones. And there's nothing as horrible as losing to the French with the Spanish!!! Akhab just did a wonderful job of destroying me. I pulled off a walk-in just as I had hoped, but then we met early and he got more early gold compared to me. I think if I had stuck to my original plan of getting the first good spot (indeed, he took the spot I skipped over next to a barb), especially in the middle, I would have had more access to the continent. But I went for Japan off to the East, which didn't represent much of the map, and then took forever to get to 100 gold. Only Kyoto was next to the sea as well---so it just really took a long time to expand.
I don't know---I'll give settler rushing more of a chance, but so far I'm more comfortable with the safe route of moving a couple of turns and grabbing a good spot.
i'm also still skeptical about it. i find it really unsafe sometimes. yesterday i didn't find anything but 25 gold and was chased by the human player before i settled in 3000BC. and in many cases, it's just up to warrior battles. lame! but especially when i find a good spot adjacent to a 1 flag barb with some gold in my pocket and 2 trees, i am very tempted just to settle instead of looking for more gold or AIs.
i want to try out the 1-2-3 warrior tactic a little. i predict one problem about it, though: many times it's probably not so easy to retreat in time, notably when someone has already set off the timer and the animations go 1.5 times faster or so.
some really weird glitch just happened. of course, it happened in the best match i have had since i started playing again. i got the americans with a GS but locked by the german player with a failed horse rush. no biggie, i'm american. so i power expand and do the knight thang but unfortunately he takes one of my many empty cities and thereby feudalism upgrading his still fresh legions to knights. so an epic knight battle begins, however, amidst the animation of me attacking one of his cities, the game simply collapses (black screen) and after a few seconds i am transferred back to the ps3 menu! never experienced that before and i really hope this is not a glitch.
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