my H2H running record...

[Pedal2Metal]

Another tough H2H match. This time I was playing the Indians, as the Spanish of course. AI: China, Zulu, Russians.

Settle in 4000 BC, have 3 trees, 3 grassland, 2 sea tiles.
Do the usual 2 warrior start then grow. Get my 100 gold in 2700 BC & put 3 settlers on the boat. Find the Indians quickly so I'm teching to BW now & trying to get some defenses going in preparation for legion rush.

Settle 3 cities w/whales, find KT (only 2 artifacts in game), find Atlantis, just leave Atlantis for now. I tech up to Irrigation & get it first this time. Go for CoL, have CoL by 800-900 BC, continue expanding. Drop off KT + warrior army for attempt at his second city. Too late, he's got an archer army. Leave KT on a hill to keep him honest. Have archer army + walls in Madrid, I feel safe now. Tech to Currency, get the free market (yeah!). Go for literacy. Hoping to get before China gets 5th tech, don't make it but need it for democracy anyhow. Start banking hammers in capital for EIC (although I select TF for this purpose). I've got 6 cities & built 5 settlers once I get 100 gold from banking, 11 cities will have to do. It's like 100 BC. I look forever & don't find many whale cities. Ouch. This is going to be a rough game most likely. The Indian player is good. He's attacking all the AI cities & making trouble all the while having good defenses where needed. No easy drop-offs here. I go for Democracy, after Engineering getting +1 prod bonus. Get it around 100 AD or so & have 14-16 techs. All cities have some defenses w/Madrid well fortified.

Anyhow, I'm ahead in tech but I know it won't last forever as I simply don't have enough cities & India can do like America at 14 techs. So I decide I'll need some "GP power" to help out especially since India can get culture w/religion. So I get first to Monarchy, then 500 gold, then Invention in the span of 4 turns. Nice. I get 1 GH, 2 GS. I pop Corp + Ind w/GS. Pop GH once I have 7 cities (no more whales on the map so I'm floating around w/settlers looking for save settling spots). I go aheah & pop the GH. I get 2000+ gold for +1 pop & now things start getting messy as the Indians are taking AI caps like candy. Indians pop Oxford for Atomic Power, it's obvious he's going for the nuke & 4 cap dom victory. Ok, I probably won't stop the nuke as Oxford put it out of reach so I just go for Steam Power. I've got to take 1 cap before he takes mine. I go for Moscow & get it w/3 vet cat armies, 2 pikemen armies. Of course, on the turn I do that, he gets GB for nuke, pops Madrid & takes it w/archer army. Great. He'll be after Moscow next but I have to try & get the EIC back otherwise, I'm likely toast due to his city advantage. I send cruiser fleet back w/2 cat armies + pikemen army, forgetting my 3rd cat army (which almost costs me the game!). In the meantime he's coming w/knights + riflemen. Oh yeah, did I mention he got Leonardo's & upgraded all his units to riflemen armies! Yeah, he did.
So now he comes after Moscow. I've got riflemen now & he attacks. He takes my knight, my cats, my warrior, my pikemen army. I'm left w/1 riflemen + 1 militia. He has a riflemen army + knight army + cruiser outside Moscow. It looks hopeless. I scramble another cruiser which I had built the turn before from a nearby island. I've got over 40 hammers banked so I can rush 2 riflemen. I put them on the cruiser & run the cruiser over Moscow. I've got 2 cruisers now. I've rushed a barracks in Moscow so I can build vet riflemen. I check to make sure nothing is going to finish this turn & put my cursor on the cruiser w/the riflemen in it. Turn ends, I immediately move riflemen into Moscow, I'm safe for another turn. Rush another one. Now I've got 4 riflemen. He attacks but his knights get damaged. He attacks w/riflemen army & wins. Down to 2 riflemen. Build another cruiser in island city. Make non-vet fleet. Rush another riflemen in Moscow. He attacks & loses his knights. I destroy his cruiser w/fleet. He moves his riflemen army away. Ok, I've bought some time. I'm teching to Combustion hard via Metallurgy. 1 turn before I finish, he uses GS to pop Mass Production & Combustion. Great!

I've now got my 2 cat armies at my capital w/pikemen army + cruiser fleet. I begin attacking even though he has riflemen army. It's like 33 vs. 30. I win. I keep doing this & retreating when necessary. I lose 1 cat army but kill like 5 riflemen armies. He's burning everything he has on trying to defend as we both essentially aren't teching much anymore. I'm working on getting a tank army. His original 2nd city is a key city w/12 pop & is blocking his empire & feeding Madrid w/units. I decide I must take this city as it will cut off the Zulu cities, his cities, & Madrid all in 1 fell swoop or else I'm going to lose.
I build tank army + 4 riflemen & take them to this choke city. I attack Madrid first trying to make him desperate. Sure enough he moves his riflemen army out of this choke city leaving it open. I put riflemen on road to block reinforcements & dump all the other units into the city. I make a riflemen army as I know he'll try to take it back immediately. Sure enough he tries but I've got 40 defense & he loses his army. I finally lose my 2nd cat army but now he's cut off, w/no production in Madrid & down to 1 last riflemen army. I see he's moving a MI army trying to walk it over (he couldn't do it by boat as I have cruiser fleet in Madrid's port & other port isn't accessible). I move my pikemen army north blocking Madrid completely from the north. I leave my militia on the trees fortified. Now he makes a huge mistake. Next turn, he attacks my militia w/his last riflemen army in Madrid before rushing a unit there. I immediately take Madrid w/pikemen army. He has meanwhile moved his MI back & is next to my city on the hill. I have a vet battleship fleet now at this location (needed to ensure it was never taken back). I attack w/vet tank army from hill w/battleship support. 95 vs. 36, I win. Now I know he's hurting as he's burned lots of gold on 6 riflemen armies, he didn't get Ind/Corp. BTW, he takes another city of mine that I left underdefended but that's fine I had to make decisions as I was rushing 2 riflemen + 1 tank per turn now to stop his 2 simultaneous tank army attacks in 2 locations (Moscow + other city I had).

At this point, he sends "gg" & quits. Definitely worth a "gg" back! I think I was going to roll through his cities now thanks to the roads but it was a hard fought game. Geez, it's been a tough day today. 2 wins but neither of these games was a walk in the park. I think the 6 week hiatus has hurt my Spanish play considerably.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[MadDjinn]

Just had a really really long game against Zef.

I moved my cap to a hill that had a whale beside it and figured I'd tech HBR while my warriors wandered to get cash.

It was only after I got HBR that I found out I was on an island, and nowhere near the mainland.

I got a free galley and grabbed the AW for the great wall early. I decided to put out 3-4 cities before teching and found the Arc not long after. I went to drop my first settler down (didn't get my 100 g settler for some time) and saw an english city pop up on the same island where I was going to have 2 fish. so I made the city anyways (he was using one of the fish) bought a temple in my cap and hit the arc with 4 cities. It took til I hit 8 pop to finally flip his city.

I got to COL and expanded out to more islands. I finally went east of my cap island and found the SoC late in the game. I went straight to Engineering to grab the +1 prod/city and then Nav to use all of the whales I had.

I settled my 1 prod city on my cap island, but had to wait for a courthouse to use most of the hammer tiles (I had a forest, marble and 3 hills in courthouse range, and wheat/fish/iver w grasslands + 2 mountains in my 8).

I got out to 12 or so cities and was finishing university when I found Atlantis. I hadn't built many defenses, so I was hoping to find it before he did. since I had grabbed the Arc, I had to keep building temples everywhere to ensure I didn't fall back in culture. This took a long time.

I grabbed and kept the tech lead around there, and kept getting GS's from culture/SoC/Invention/500g mark. I had 4 saved for the end.

I didn't step onto the mainland til the end. Once my prod city was up and running I GS'd Communism (for the cheap factory) then Steel, Artillery and finally Adv. Flight.

Zef. was busily taking out the Aztec, and I was wondering why he hadn't taken the german and american cap's by the time I got there.

I grabbed a bunch of extra units and went for London (which I had blockaded). On the way I built the Oracle (was surprised it was still available) and I was happy for it. I would have lost a few units at London had I not gotten the Oracle (all would have been my advantage losses).

Zef. quit about then.

[Pedal2Metal]

My son played 3 H2H games today. 2 as Spanish (I asked him to) & then he played a player we've played often (good & fair) who we knew was going to be Americans so he plays Chinese.

The first Spanish game was forgettable against some Egyptian player who put everything on food. Over in 3400 BC.

The second game, he played a good Zulu player. I won't mention his name but I respect this guy. He expands well, techs well, & plays fairly. Always a good game. He got tanks while my son got bombers (he rarely does this but this time he said "I'll try it your way"). He had the ability to do 2 bombers/turn (1000+ gold/turn) so it made sense. Eventually my son wore down 1 of his good cities (Kyoto I believe) as he had cut off the roads w/bombers so he couldn't bring in reinforcements. These are the things that never make it into the "how to beat bomber thread". It's not easy, even w/half-price riflemen. The Zulu got tanks & tried to make a run but couldn't get there due to road being blocked. However, it was close as if it had taken a few more turns, he likely would have gotten Flight. Of course, the beauty of the situation then is you simply go for Eco victory. My son got EIC, Oxford, & Leonardo's that game. Worked out well. But it was a good game nonetheless.

The third game was Chinese vs. Americans. A good game & my son had to fight to get his footing due to some tough battles w/Americans & the GA flip of his horse army after he took Kyoto. He got a little lazy on that one. You can usually avoid the GA flip but you have to always keep in mind that America could have a GA about 50% of the time & never get lazy about protecting against it when you're on the attack. On the other hand, sometimes getting that GA to be spent early is better than letting them keep it around for later. My son just pestered the American w/horsemen the entire game. Of course, the American was able to take his cities back pretty quickly (as I've always pointed out to folks) but it kept him busy & the American lost a horsemen army & knight army in the process. Meanwhile, my son had built an awesome production city (4 hills) & got the free workshop as the gatekeeper city to his empire. He built 3 vet archer armies & fortified before knights got there. 21-24 defense, vet knights don't win that usually. He also built 2 cat armies & had 2 cats in the city & another cat army in another city he was bringing to take all the caps. Also he kept teching up & expanding once he had his defenses in order (550 AD or so).

The American brought 3 knight armies I think (he had lost 1 earlier), it might have been 4. He attacks a fortified vet archer army, was losing, so he retreated. Nice. Upgrade for the archers. My son attempted to attack his injured knight army w/vet cat from hill but he miss-hit & attacked a vet knight army w/12 defense (trees I think). Anyhow, he ended up winning the battle. So the American player quits. If the game had gone on, I expect China would have pulled away at this point. They had taken Rome out (got CoL early in the game), took Aztecs w/cat army, & would have had Kyoto too but GA flipped by America & had a ton of cities all 4-5 pop. My son plays a very particular way when he plays against America w/China (extremely aggressive, even for him which means it's crazy aggressive) & it appears to work. I can't imagine anyone else being able to expand, attack, & defend so well (maybe Rome) but anyone else, you're going to have a tough time. Yes, I won w/Spanish today against America but it's never easy. Even my son's Chinese game, my son was on his toes the entire game. It gets old always playing America/Zulu in H2H but we at least got 1 decent non-American/non-Zulu game in today out of 5. The Egyptian game doesn't count. 3400 BC walk-in just doesn't make the competency grade.

That's all for today.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zefelius]

Zef. was busily taking out the Aztec, and I was wondering why he hadn't taken the german and american cap's by the time I got there.

I grabbed a bunch of extra units and went for London (which I had blockaded). On the way I built the Oracle (was surprised it was still available) and I was happy for it. I would have lost a few units at London had I not gotten the Oracle (all would have been my advantage losses).

Zef. quit about then.

Those are fair observations, without a doubt. MD is unquestionably a much more flexible player than I am: that's the simple, straightforward answer to why I didn't take out the 2nd and 3rd caps. Any truly good player would have. I had a decent enough start, and grabbed COL, Currency, Feudalism, and Construction first. But compared to the great players, I can't say that once my plans go awry I know the best adaptation. Case in point: once I lost my market city to a culture flip, and realized that my expansion would be slowed down with less money, I decided to go to war against the AI once my cities abutted theirs and I procured Feudalism. I forget just how many Aztec cities I captured -- I think 4 or 5, as well as one German -- but since it took me too long to expand in the beginning, and then I spent some turns at war with the Aztecs w/o taking advantage of Democracy in the way that Japan was able to do so, I presumed that soon enough MD would be on the continent and I should consequently refocus on tech rather than taking out the Americans and Germans. But by that time it simply didn't matter: the game was inexorably drawing to a close despite any of my decisions at that stage, insofar as he had already teched far ahead of me and was able to amass a Battleship fleet and other necessary items to take out my cap after another one of my cities near my cap had been flipped.

Ultimately, then, the early game put its indelible imprint on the late game: my insufficient response to MD's city flip of my market city, as well as other developments, is the sign of a player who has one or two basic strategies but is incapable of adjusting to any significant challenges beyond that. The game was mine to lose, and MD did an absolutely fantastic job of turning an island start into an impressive win.

Best,
Apple Zefelius Pie

[MadDjinn]

yeah, the early game decided most of this one, wrt me getting the Arc and AW.

The only thing I really had to overcome in that game was my expectation to horse rush the AIs, and all the turns it took to prepare for that, and then finding out I was on an island. that was rough, and set me back a few turns/gold, but the japanese can actually do great from an island start due to the +1 food from water. it doesn't matter where you settle (if the island had food or not) you still get to grow.

me wasting a bunch of times on temples to prevent flips took too many resources. though, once I had 3-4 14 pop cities doing tech I had no problem overcoming the lack of early production.

[Zefelius]

Played 2 games today: French (me) against China and Japan (me) versus Russia. I still haven't figured out how to expand properly with France. I think there may just be some civs which necessitate a slower path to either play with their strengths or weaknesses. I lost that one.

I sort of won the second, except I was disconnected. Although several strats suggest going for archers as one of the first techs (undoubtedly it's contingent upon circumstances and will thus vary from situation to situation), it seems like whenever I read someone's story in H2H or FFA it more often than not begins with aggression (and thereby keeping the other person on guard). So in the same way that MD started his Japan game against me pursuing horses, I copied him and made HBR my first point of research. As I feared with this kind of opening, there just so happened to be a dearth of gold, and so it took me some time to get my 100 gld and horse army. But it didn't seem to matter too much, and I got a cap by around 1800/1700. At that point I think I must have had 4 cities, so I was able to catch up in my expansion. Definitely had 10 by 0 AD, but I guess that's not too difficult with the Japanese. Once I was clearly winning with Knights, I was unfortunately disconnected. Oh well, it was still fun.

Zef

P.S. Does anyone know how long you have to be at war against the AI to give them archer armies against a rusher? I usually declare war on them and soon afterward sign for peace so I can get $$ from them. But I realized not too long ago that perhaps they stop making their archer army if you peace up with them. Any thoughts????

[MadDjinn]

the best thing to do to make AI create archer armies is to get within their 8 tiles of the capital.

if no one gets close to them, they'll head to Iron Working and start making legions.

[Pedal2Metal]

Played 4 games tonight. 2 as Spanish, 1 as Zulu, 1 as Americans.
Won 2 Spanish & American games. Lost the Zulu game to an American player.
I'll talk about the loss first.

AI Civs: Aztecs, Greeks, Spanish. The American took the Greeks & Spanish so he got Democracy & Navigation. Sweet! This game was going to be a cinch. I tried to take his second city w/Infiltration warriors. Didn't work as he built a pikemen army. I did manage to cause him to build an archer army in his cap. I sat on him for a while. Ultimately it came down to expansion & tech. He outexpanded me & got the key city techs for Americans (literacy for one). I did win battle to Monarchy & Knights as I tried to use aggression to take him out. I got Religion & went on the offensive. I came w/knights but didn't stage them well. I foolishly attacked his cap w/only 1 knight army & lost. Oh well, live & learn. I did manage to take Athens but I lost the army when he GA flipped Athens. I was being lazy. Oh well, live & learn. That one essentially broke my back. At this point, he likely would have won anyhow as he got GunPowder about 3 turns earlier w/GS.

Anyhow, it was a good learning experience as I rarely play the Zulu & I definitely need to make some adjustments when playing America.

The Spanish games were forgettable so I won't even mention them.

American game AI: Chinese. Never met the other 2 as it was over quick.
The American game was because I knew the guy I was playing (we've played him several times, a good & fair player) would be America so I wanted it to be an even playing field as least Civ wise.
I got a GE. I made 50 gold & rushed 3 warriors as I was in middle of the map & started on HBR. I got like 140 gold in like 8 turns. I had my horse army by like 3000 or so. I was told by a barb hut where he was. He was across some water about 2-3 moves away so fairly close. I could see he was on grassland & had 1 tech. I checked & he got Alphabet. I think he was trying something different out this time as I don't think he usually does this. Anyhow, I decide I'm going to put my horsemen army on a galley as I've got 45 gold left. I put 2 trees for 2 turns & rush galley for 44 gold. I'm on my way. Meanwhile I've settled my second city on a hill next to AW & am building a galley. I've managed to keep his 1 warrior wandering around out of my area as I've still got my 3 warriors. I put 1 in my second city & push the other 2 towards him. I get to his city & I can see he only has a GA in it. I go to attack w/horsemen army & he rushes a horsemen. Ok, I attack anyhow as I figure I can always retreat since it will take him 2 turns to build a horsemen army & he doesn't have his 100 gold yet & he just burned a good amount of it. 3 vs. 1.5, I win. I put militia on tree to slow his production. He's doing 4 hammers a turn now. Sweet! Same thing next turn. Now he brings a warrior back. I attack. I win. Now I'm veteran. Sweet! He rushes 1 more warrior. I attack, 4.5 vs. 1.5, I win. Next turn I take the city. 2100 BC game over. Not very interesting but I felt good about it as I had to be a little different from my usual playstyle.

I'm trying to get a game in w/Zef but he's already playing.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zefelius]

Just finished a tough game with some guy named ElThrasher. At first I thought he was a noob, but it turns out this dude can really play. He was Mongols and I was the Japanese. I never remember details too well, because I sort of get lost in the moment. I think we had about the same number of cities---almost 20 for both sides, unless I missed something. He really wanted Hanover, and even took it a couple of times, but ultimately I kept it (that is, until I lost the game!!). I'm not sure how he started out, but my beginning was filled with bad luck. Of course, I'm just rationalizing. Good players make their luck, right!! But twice I got to barbs just in a nick of time for the French and Germans to take them before I reached them. This one perhaps I could have avoided: I moved a caravan right in front of a French dude. I suppose I could have been more careful and moved him two tiles instead of 3. Oh well. That meant I started with very low cash, and it took me some time to get my gld city and horse rush going---but finally I did and I took Berlin and another German city late (I forget when---1700/1600?).

ElThrasher had already captured his cap... so after that point in time we were running pretty even in terms of techs---I recall getting some bonuses and I'm sure he got plenty as well. I won some battles and he won some battles. The first one I lost---I knew it was a trap, and yet I was impatient with my first set of knights, grabbed one of my cities back (Hanover), and he proceeded to destroy my knights with a horse army. I didn't do that again!

I tried to press a little bit, but he pressed better. He's an awesome player. I think one of the things I have to learn to do a bit more wisely is my timing of war against the AI: I took over Paris when I felt safe to do so, but then I delayed taking Democracy (I think I saw the 1 on it when I began attacking Paris and another French city) and shifted trade to gold so the French wouldn't sue for peace. It took long enough to get those cities so that by the time I was done, ElThrasher had snatched Democracy, GSed Industrialization, and teched ahead in a number of areas. Once he went on the attack at that point (with Samarai Castle as well), I was just outclassed by superior weaponry. I'll have to ask him about his view of it later on.

Oh, I should add that even if that game was slightly close at first, the one previous to that was not at all: he obliterated me in just a few turns with a KT knight and horse army. Anyway, fun to play ElThrasher at last!!

Zef

[Pedal2Metal]

2 more games tonight.

First game:
Players: Spanish (me) vs. Egyptians
AI: Aztecs, 2 unknown

I started on an island & since I saw hills I whale-hunted. Found a whale, settled in 3900 BC. Had 1 barb on island got 50 gold, it showed me where 7 cities of gold was. I had 59 gold so next turn I rush a galleon. Took about 3 turns to get 7 cities. On turn I popped it, I also rushed a settler in Madrid. There was another whale spot on the island 3 squares away. I found another double whale on an island next to mine (actually 1fish/1whale & 2 whale so 2 awesome cities). Given the plethora of close whale cities & my island start & the fact I was playing Egypt, I decided I would got hard tech/expansion route although I'll admit I didn't have a good end-game planned out. So I settled a double whale/fish & 2 whale cities (cap + 2nd city). I was soon doing 16 tech/turn. I teched alphabet, writing, CoL. Then switched everyone to gold. I rushed 7 settlers. Yes, 7. I also rushed a 2nd galleon. I put 3 settlers on each galleon. 1 settler I moved up on the second island to get the double whale spot & transition my double whale/fish to a whale/fish city. I now researched BW & got my fifth tech. All my new cities would be 3 pop, no irrigation needed & my original 3 were already 3-4 pop. Anyhow, I found KT next. I found some Egyptian settlers but couldn't catch them w/warrior I dropped off from galleon. I tried to take one of his cities w/KT but he made an archer army quickly. So I moved the KT onward. Found his third city up north & he also had archer army. So he had 3 cities w/archer armies. At this point I had 11 cities w/2 more settlers to settle & great sites picked out, every first to research bonus except literacy & construction. He went for Monarchy & beat me to it. So I teched Fuedalism & backfilled Monarchy. He quit after this. I think I had 21 techs to his 13, no libraries, 1 market. I was doing 140 tech/turn around 100 AD.
Anyhow, that game was unlucky for this player. We've played him several times so I felt a little bad for him as he's a fair player. The map was full of whales, I got every artifact starting early w/7cities, then KT, then Atlantis. I had 11 cities by 500 BC all with whales, all on islands except 2. I built 1 settler in democracy due to great city w/whale/fish, etc.... I also recognized the map so I wasted no turns getting to the whale spots. It was probably the fastest I've ever teched w/Spanish as I simply went full expansion tech & intended to back-fill defenses w/pikemen once I got Engineering (I did this).
I think he got a little frustrated as he was ending the turn immediately while I was busy moving galleons, settling cities, checking the tech tree, trying to sell techs for money, etc... so I was taking most of my turns & he would hit pause every so often to let me know "hurry up man!". Sorry but that's just how I am. A slow player & I usually take the whole turn. Anyhow, really bad map luck for him. It's pretty much a lock if Spanish start on an island, get the 7 cities before 3000 BC, there are tons of great whale sites on the map, & the Spanish player knows the map.

The second game was Zulu (me) vs. Americans. I didn't recognize the name so I assumed he'd be Americans. What do you know, I guessed right. I settled in 4000 BC, warrior in 3700, took barb in 3600. I had noticed during 4000-3800 he'd been moving his settlers (I have no idea why an American player needs to move his settlers but whatever). The barb hut gave me a galley. I moved it up 2 squares, dumped off my militia & lo & behold I see a blue city outline. So I decide to go for it. I have my warrior on the galley in 2 turns. I move up my militia to get a better look. He has settled a decent city w/2 trees, 1 grassland, 1 plains, barb hut + 2 sea tiles + something else. The barb hut had 2 flags but goes down to 1. I can see his warrior is damaged. I dump my warrior 2 squares away diagonally on the other side. I've got another warrior in my cap so I bring the galley back & put him on. I move militia up to sit on his trees & I bide my time for 1 more turn. I dump my 2nd warrior out. I decide to go for with my first warrior. 1 vs. 1. He loses but damages him 2 guys. Next turn I attack & win. Take capital in 3300 BC, game over in 3200 BC. That's probably the fastest game I've ever won although I've lost faster, 3400 BC . I'm not very good w/Zulu but I can see why people like them. That 2x movement is quite useful early on in the game.

Anyhow, that's a wrap for tonight.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zefelius]

2 more games tonight.

First game:
Players: Spanish (me) vs. Egyptians
AI: Aztecs, 2 unknown

I started on an island & since I saw hills I whale-hunted. Found a whale, settled in 3900 BC. Had 1 barb on island got 50 gold, it showed me where 7 cities of gold was. I had 59 gold so next turn I rush a galleon. Took about 3 turns to get 7 cities.

Now that's the kind of island start I like! And with the Spanish!!?? Deadly.

[Zefelius]

I think he got a little frustrated as he was ending the turn immediately while I was busy moving galleons, settling cities, checking the tech tree, trying to sell techs for money, etc... so I was taking most of my turns & he would hit pause every so often to let me know "hurry up man!". Sorry but that's just how I am. A slow player & I usually take the whole turn.

I'm the same way: a slow player. As I sell techs to the AI, think about city locations, fight barbs, sail the seas, check my city settings, etc., I will sometimes get the same response: some guy out there hitting the pause button. This happens maybe once every ten games. I was even slower than usual when I played my first tourney game, and I definitely felt sorry for MD as I was overthinking every move!! But he never hit the pause button as far I can remember. In any case, I can see both perspectives: if a player is slow every single move, that could be frustrating. But it's equally frustrating when you know the other guy only has 6 cities and isn't really doing much yet expects you to finish your moves just as quickly as he. I figure the compromise is that I speed up when I can and think the other guy should understand when I'm not always able to do that.

Is that your approach?

Zef

[Pedal2Metal]

I'm the same way: a slow player. As I sell techs to the AI, think about city locations, fight barbs, sail the seas, check my city settings, etc., I will sometimes get the same response: some guy out there hitting the pause button. This happens maybe once every ten games. I was even slower than usual when I played my first tourney game, and I definitely felt sorry for MD as I was overthinking every move!! But he never hit the pause button as far I can remember. In any case, I can see both perspectives: if a player is slow every single move, that could be frustrating. But it's equally frustrating when you know the other guy only has 6 cities and isn't really doing much yet expects you to finish your moves just as quickly as he. I figure the compromise is that I speed up when I can and think the other guy should understand when I'm not always able to do that.

Is that your approach?

Zef

Yeah, if I don't need the whole turn, I don't use it. However, if I hit 10+ cities & I'm still expanding & still doing things, I'm probably going to take the whole turn. I don't worry about it. The game provides me with 1 minute. If the other guy can't give me 1 minute based on the game rules, then that's his or her problem. They didn't have to play MP & that's just the rules of the game.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[elthrasher]

Just finished a tough game with some guy named ElThrasher.

Those were fun games. You aren't bad. I don't know that the Japanese are the optimal choice for a H2H match, but whatever you please.

The first game was just absurd. You recall you suggested I play the Russians (I do like them). My map showed no friendlies or barbs, but I saw I could move two spaces and have the same good resources but be closer to all the action, so I did that. I also had a dye tile when I settled in 3900 BC. And I immediately realized I was two tiles from London. There was a barb between us, but it gave me a galley which I wanted to use to get the Ark and whatever else lay out there, so I had to attack London with a non-vet warrior army. I won 3-2 and got Monarchy (remember that dye in Moscow?).

The map was just insane with dye. I think I had like ten dye tiles within reach and probably would've been able to do over 100 beakers by 0 AD. Anyway, I took Zimbabwe with a horse army, found the KT. At that point I got a GB so I rushed the Samurai Castle.

Don't feel badly about losing this game. I really don't think any player with any civ at an average start would've been able to take me. At the point you quit, I was already working three dye tiles and had five cities. I would've easily had three more dye cities in a couple more turns.

The next game was a lot closer. I'm not that great with the Mongols, but I can at least get a horse army together with them. I got four barbs and had a choice of going east or west with my horse army. I went east, which was good because I found the Romans and got Rome and Code of Laws but bad because you were killing the Germans to the west and my defenses were very, very thin at that point. Um, in fact, all of my cities were empty and I had 6 gold. I switched my cities to gold for five painful turns in order to rush an archer army to go on the choke between us. Five turns of no growth or tech. Bleah. But then I got Rome and could immediately do 9 trade there and also could switch to Republic. That made things a bit better.

I got Irrigation and grew most of my cities to 3 pop (two barbs had only plains, but I went through the 10 turn agony of growing them to 2 pop). I think you could've beaten me to Irrigation. Even if you don't need it, denying it to your enemy can be huge. Don't listen to Pedal.

I got some cities out and got some good techs, but you beat me to Currency, which hurt. I actually didn't hit my 100 gold until 550 AD. Ha ha. I love the Mongols for that. You can actually play the game with no gold.

I was worried about your knights. I think it was probably a mistake for you to war on the French when I went to Democracy. You should've either attacked me with like 5+ knight armies or gone to Democracy yourself (but then why have all those knights?). Hitting me with multiple knights earlier than you did probably would've worked as my defenses were still lean and I didn't have much income. I just had a cat army as you'd killed my horses.

Anyway, fun games. I'd be glad to play you again any time. I doubt I will continue to win every game.

[Pedal2Metal]

I got Irrigation and grew most of my cities to 3 pop (two barbs had only plains, but I went through the 10 turn agony of growing them to 2 pop). I think you could've beaten me to Irrigation. Even if you don't need it, denying it to your enemy can be huge. Don't listen to Pedal.
.

Cute...

Now, just to be clear, I was talking about the Spanish & making a general statement about their tech strategy & the rationale. I also mentioned that several civs you have to watch out for (Japs, Greeks, China) but no mention of Mongols. I stand by the general comments but vs. the Mongols case, it might very well be a good play as the Mongols will likely have 5+ cities very quickly in H2H & getting Irrigation really helps them a lot. Now, ironically, if a Mongol player decides to go hard for Irrigation, they somehow got 20 tech/turn ability by 2500 BC, you're likely to lose. I've done it before in H2H where I got 7 barb huts by 2500 BC. W/that kind of start, it's tough, real tough to beat them to Irrigation. Once they get it, they are doing over 30 tech/turn & can produce gold/tech, etc... & just run over you.

It's definitely true that the Japanese can get Irrigation quickly & it can really help. As mentioned, the Mongols can REALLY benefit from it. So yeah, if I'm playing the Japs & you're playing the Mongols, the Jap player should shut the door on that opportunity.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[elthrasher]

Cute...

Now, just to be clear, I was talking about the Spanish & making a general statement about their tech strategy & the rationale. I also mentioned that several civs you have to watch out for (Japs, Greeks, China) but no mention of Mongols. I stand by the general comments but vs. the Mongols case, it might very well be a good play as the Mongols will likely have 5+ cities very quickly in H2H & getting Irrigation really helps them a lot. Now, ironically, if a Mongol player decides to go hard for Irrigation, they somehow got 20 tech/turn ability by 2500 BC, you're likely to lose. I've done it before in H2H where I got 7 barb huts by 2500 BC. W/that kind of start, it's tough, real tough to beat them to Irrigation. Once they get it, they are doing over 30 tech/turn & can produce gold/tech, etc... & just run over you.

It's definitely true that the Japanese can get Irrigation quickly & it can really help. As mentioned, the Mongols can REALLY benefit from it. So yeah, if I'm playing the Japs & you're playing the Mongols, the Jap player should shut the door on that opportunity.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Yeah, I was just picking on you. I figure you would've gotten Irrigation in that situation. I don't know why Zef didn't. I think he got CoL really fast in the other game too. Maybe it's just his basic strategy. I don't really think it's necessary to get CoL that fast, especially if the game is still in the "trying to kill each other with ancient era armies" phase. Spreading settlers around is just gonna be bad when you suddenly lose your horse army and have no way to protect them.

I only had three barb cities very quickly, two of them had only plains and one had no food. I had to work on gold for the first few turns after getting these barbs in order to get my horse army out and then I grew them, so I got Irrigation pretty late. I forget the year. I think Zef already had CoL. He may have had it before I did (I got it by killing the Romans). My fourth barb (and the only one with decent food) was on the other side of the Romans.

Anyway, we were both pretty slow in this game. Me 'cause of bad barbs and slow growth/expansion (all with hammers - I spent zero gold on settlers) and he because of similar woes, Japanese-style (no gold).

[Zefelius]

Yeah, I was just picking on you. I figure you would've gotten Irrigation in that situation. I don't know why Zef didn't. I think he got CoL really fast in the other game too. Maybe it's just his basic strategy. I don't really think it's necessary to get CoL that fast, especially if the game is still in the "trying to kill each other with ancient era armies" phase. Spreading settlers around is just gonna be bad when you suddenly lose your horse army and have no way to protect them.

Interesting. I'll have to think about that more. It's true I go straight to CoL more often than not (unless I'm French), and it's probably because I've read so many strats in the forum that say to expand as quickly as possible and get CoL uber-fast. In our game I also wanted to try for currency and construction before making knights---for an easier rush. But reading through H2H and FFA stories, it often seems like there's a lot going on (violent-wise) before expanding to 10 cities. That's one reason why I've added HBR lately to my early tech repertoire: in case there are some fights. But I see your point: one horsearmy will have a tough time fighting the early round by itself, and thus pursuing a couple other techs (some violent, some growth, etc.) might be good for me.

Speaking of early fights: I lost to a Chinese player just now (I was a middle-tier civ) with my horsearmy against his fortified warrior. Ooops! I thought: why not vet up on the way to an AI cap? Haha! I always have better luck against the AI!

Zef

P.S. I figured Russians would be good practice for me, since I don't see them in action often and Grayson might use them tomorrow in the tourney. Thanks for using them!

[Zefelius]

After losing my horsearmy to a warrior three games ago, I just finished two more games in the space of 5 minutes. They were against the English and the Chinese (I think I was Arabs). After two or three turns each, they quit the game. So I can't complain too much when I lose a game in 15 turns: it usually evens out.

[Pedal2Metal]

Interesting. I'll have to think about that more. It's true I go straight to CoL more often than not (unless I'm French), and it's probably because I've read so many strats in the forum that say to expand as quickly as possible and get CoL uber-fast. In our game I also wanted to try for currency and construction before making knights---for an easier rush. But reading through H2H and FFA stories, it often seems like there's a lot going on (violent-wise) before expanding to 10 cities. That's one reason why I've added HBR lately to my early tech repertoire: in case there are some fights. But I see your point: one horsearmy will have a tough time fighting the early round by itself, and thus pursuing a couple other techs (some violent, some growth, etc.) might be good for me.

Speaking of early fights: I lost to a Chinese player just now (I was a middle-tier civ) with my horsearmy against his fortified warrior. Ooops! I thought: why not vet up on the way to an AI cap? Haha! I always have better luck against the AI!

Zef

P.S. I figured Russians would be good practice for me, siince I don't see them in action often and Grayson might use them tomorrow in the tourney. Thanks for using them!

There's nothing wrong w/going for CoL as a general tech strategy. It's a key tech. However, I think the issue is more with adaptation during real gameplay. This is key in my observations to doing well & it's virtually impossible to put this type of thing into written form on these forums. It's why noob players who have read the forums are still noob players until they get more gameplay experience. It's why I can't play the Chinese like my son or Morte. They adapt so much better than I do & make it look easy, but it's not on every level: strategy, tactics, timer. I find when I adapt well & predict accurately, I generally win. If I don't predict accurately &/or don't adapt well, I often lose or make the victory much more difficult. Ok, enough gameplay philosophy... you get enough of that right?

Back to the specific application...
If you're playing against the Mongols & you're the Japs, you've got the early tech advantage. You should be able to tech Irrigation first w/o much trouble. Now you force the Mongolian player to sit on food for anywhere from 10-15 turns to grow to 2-3 pop or else he lives w/1 pop cities. Meanwhile, all these cities are likely to be undefended for some time so getting a horsearmy roaming early through his lands is key. You don't need the cities but he absolutely does as he gets no $$ so typically a Mongol player has to put all those little barb cities on gold for a few turns for his 100 gold, his horsearmy, a few archers, etc.... You can just wreck havoc on Mongols w/horsearmies OR as the Spanish w/multiple archers on a Galleon if you get there early enough. You can still do your usual thing to CoL but check the tech tree & make dynamic adjustments as needed to win key first-to-research bonuses and/or make strategic defensive plays depending upon the civ you are playing against. In this case, I think getting Irrigation before Ghenghis Khan is running rampant is pretty important especially since if all those barb huts turn into 3 pop cities, you are in serious trouble as they cost him next to nothing (maybe 10 hammers on average per city) & they were adding to his power very early in the game.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[elthrasher]

P.S. I figured Russians would be good practice for me, siince I don't see them in action often and Grayson might use them tomorrow in the tourney. Thanks for using them!

Don't worry about that. Grayson is a noob when it comes to Russia. He never gets the Samurai Castle in 1000 BC. I don't think he even knows it's possible.

[Pedal2Metal]

After losing my horsearmy to a warrior three games ago, I just finished two more games in the space of 5 minutes. They were against the English and the Chinese (I think I was Arabs). After two or three turns each, they quit the game. So I can't complain too much when I lose a game in 15 turns: it usually evens out.

Yes, I see the same thing sometimes. It's just bizarre. English, ok if you were dye-hunting & didn't find any. Chinese? Why in the world would they quit? Who knows. I've had American players quit on me when I'm the Spanish. Huh? Who knows. Just bizarre. English, Spanish, Greeks, I understand quitting early sometimes as you may have gambled on moving your settlers & it didn't work out. Also horrible luck island starts & you're not Chinese/American/Spanish, I can see quitting as well. I'll never know why people quit in the first 5 turns but it's true what you say.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[spatenfloot]

People often just get disconnected or crash. It is buggy in multiplayer.
On the other hand, many people quit when someone takes a capitol early in the game or something simply doesn't go their way.

[elthrasher]

Yes, I see the same thing sometimes. It's just bizarre. English, ok if you were dye-hunting & didn't find any. Chinese? Why in the world would they quit? Who knows. I've had American players quit on me when I'm the Spanish. Huh? Who knows. Just bizarre. English, Spanish, Greeks, I understand quitting early sometimes as you may have gambled on moving your settlers & it didn't work out. Also horrible luck island starts & you're not Chinese/American/Spanish, I can see quitting as well. I'll never know why people quit in the first 5 turns but it's true what you say.

Dye-hunting with the English - I just don't see it. I've seen a few people try it and lose horribly to my walk-in or galley drop because they lost turns wandering around. I just don't see why it would be very important to have London on dye.

I don't ever quit a game unless I'm horribly behind and my opponent is taking long turns while I've got nothing to do. There are just so many players out there who bungle the mid and late game that I feel against a random opponent, I've got at least a hope of catching up, no matter how poor my start or outlook.

[Grayson]

Don't worry about that. Grayson is a noob when it comes to Russia. He never gets the Samurai Castle in 1000 BC. I don't think he even knows it's possible.

psssh...

the motherland doesn't care for puny castles. The proletariat is oppossed to such extravagence.

just give us some plains and we'll do the rest.

[elthrasher]

psssh...

the motherland doesn't care for puny castles. The proletariat is oppossed to such extravagence.

just give us some plains and we'll do the rest.

The people's samurai castle is not extravagant. It is a monument to the determination of the people, but I wouldn't expect a France-playing bourgeois noob like you to understand!

[Pedal2Metal]

Dye-hunting with the English - I just don't see it. I've seen a few people try it and lose horribly to my walk-in or galley drop because they lost turns wandering around. I just don't see why it would be very important to have London on dye.

I don't ever quit a game unless I'm horribly behind and my opponent is taking long turns while I've got nothing to do. There are just so many players out there who bungle the mid and late game that I feel against a random opponent, I've got at least a hope of catching up, no matter how poor my start or outlook.

Yeah, I think dye-hunting w/English is extremly high risk but people do it. I've seen Chinese players move their settlers, Americans, etc.... I just don't get these high-risk tactics myself on the first turns of the game. Whale-hunting isn't as high-risk as dye-hunting as whales are usually plentiful on the map (there are a couple of maps where this isn't true) & food is the most powerful resource in the game over time as it allows you to increase your empire's most fundamental strength: the population. As the old adage goes, it's the people that matter most.

I rarely quit myself unless I feel it's hopeless (like my American game once he had riflemen armies) although sometimes I start a game & have to leave for unexpected reasons.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zefelius]

Yes, I see the same thing sometimes. It's just bizarre. English, ok if you were dye-hunting & didn't find any. Chinese? Why in the world would they quit? Who knows. I've had American players quit on me when I'm the Spanish. Huh? Who knows. Just bizarre. English, Spanish, Greeks, I understand quitting early sometimes as you may have gambled on moving your settlers & it didn't work out. Also horrible luck island starts & you're not Chinese/American/Spanish, I can see quitting as well. I'll never know why people quit in the first 5 turns but it's true what you say.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Agreed on just about everything. Personally, I also think that if someone wants to have the superior advantage of the Chinese and Americans, when I've chosen a middle-tier civ, they should at least be willing to take the disadvantage of an island or some other such bad start. It evens it out a bit. It's as if some players don't want to have any hardship whatsoever: they're more than happy to enjoy a game against you if they're a top tier civ with a great start and you have the Japanese or Greeks, but as soon as the game evens out suddenly they're not enjoying the game so much!!

Was I just on a soapbox?? I guess so.

Anyway, speaking of flexible adaptation (your other comment), I just played one of my best games ever. I was on an island, and unfortunately it was surrounded by 3 artifacts (7 Cities, AoC, and AW for the Pyramid), otherwise I could say that my tech choices went better than usual without having the caveat of those other positive variables in the equation. Nevertheless, I decided not to go straight for CoL this time. Instead I mixed it up and went for Literacy first. If I were playing against the Chinese (he was Arabs), maybe this wouldn't have worked as well. But a long story short: I see what you mean by adapting to circumstances. If you're able to add some bonuses to your city expansion, then why not? I don't think I've ever gotten Literacy first in a game against a good player, because I have one tech path. Now I'll start mixing it up more and fun with the tech tree.

Always something new to learn...

[elthrasher]

Agreed on just about everything. Personally, I also think that if someone wants to have the superior advantage of the Chinese and Americans, when I've chosen a middle-tier civ, they should at least be willing to take the disadvantage of an island or some other such bad start. It evens it out a bit. It's as if some players don't want to have any hardship whatsoever: they're more than happy to enjoy a game against you if they're a top tier civ with a great start and you have the Japanese or Greeks, but as soon as the game evens out suddenly they're not enjoying the game so much!!

It does seem like some players only want to play if they can get a big advantage right away, but at the same time, you never know why somebody is quitting. I like to imagine he just got some really good news like...

*ring, ring*
"Hello?"
"Bobby, grandma just woke up from her coma and she remembered where she buried her money. The doctors say she's gonna be fine and the family farm is saved!"
"Ohmigod it's the best day of my life! I'll be right over!"
*turns off xbox*

Just quitting because you don't like the map is kinda dumb though. You'd think they'd give it five minutes and see if the opposition is up to anything good. If you have a bad start and your opponent has 3 caps and is in industrial by 2000 BC, then sure, go ahead and quit. Only playing from advantage won't teach you anything.

[danthechan]

i love the start of games. i would never quit unless things are really bad and i have time for another fresh start. i don't like to dye huntwith english but when circumstances (lousy spot, hills to seek from, end of peninsula) allowed it in a h2h tourney game it was a big edge. after the 2 warriors were out i could research bw and have an archer in 4 turns. after that it is just a big jumpstart to getting early tech bonuses.

[Zefelius]

It does seem like some players only want to play if they can get a big advantage right away, but at the same time, you never know why somebody is quitting. I like to imagine he just got some really good news like...

*ring, ring*
"Hello?"
"Bobby, grandma just woke up from her coma and she remembered where she buried her money. The doctors say she's gonna be fine and the family farm is saved!"
"Ohmigod it's the best day of my life! I'll be right over!"
*turns off xbox*

Just quitting because you don't like the map is kinda dumb though. You'd think they'd give it five minutes and see if the opposition is up to anything good. If you have a bad start and your opponent has 3 caps and is in industrial by 2000 BC, then sure, go ahead and quit. Only playing from advantage won't teach you anything.

Once again, ElThrasher, you've proven you're the funniest guy in this forum. I'm really starting to think you went to Second City or write for SNL or It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia! Totally hilarious comment!!

Anyway... Since I'm usually somewhat self-deprecating on this forum, I don't think I'll mind gloating for a few sentences: I just came from behind to beat another top 30/40 Zulu player. That's not a huge deal to you guys, but I usually don't do so well against the top players. This guy (uncouth to name him?) took two caps very quick, so I thought: It's over, especially with me and my little ol' middle-tier civ (one of my tourny civs). But he only built up to around 8 cities. I'm still slow with my attacks, and by the time I got some knights to his area, he was protected by rifleman armies. But the third and fourth city I checked out he didn't have the armies completed. Plus I had a great general, so even though I don't remember the numbers, I wasn't bad off even when he completed those armies after I landed mine since they weren't fortified yet (what is that---24 vet gg knights versus 15 defense?).

I wanted to go for Oxford, but since he started attacking my side of the map with a tank army, I put my money into Leo's. Perhaps that's considered noobish, but I'm just not good enough yet where in some games I don't have to rely on an easy trick like that. In any event, it helped: my vet tanks with the GG and a fleet of cruisers turned the tide back to my advantage. He was fair, and quit the game without anything suspicious. Yay!

I'll enjoy and celebrate a good game for now... but I still won't think I'm any good until I win at least one decent game against a top forum player. With a busy school year ahead, that may be tough. But I'll find time to play at least every other weekend---perhaps more depending upon how addicted I am.

That's it, Zefelius

[elthrasher]

Once again, ElThrasher, you've proven you're the funniest guy in this forum. I'm really starting to think you went to Second City or write for SNL or It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia! Totally hilarious comment!!

I was going for sentimental, but glad you liked it.

I'd hate to have to be amusing to earn a paycheck. Too much pressure.

Anyway... Since I'm usually somewhat self-deprecating on this forum, I don't think I'll mind gloating for a few sentences: I just came from behind to beat another top 30/40 Zulu player. That's not a huge deal to you guys, but I usually don't do so well against the top players. This guy (uncouth to name him?) took two caps very quick, so I thought: It's over, especially with me and my little ol' middle-tier civ (one of my tourny civs). But he only built up to around 8 cities. I'm still slow with my attacks, and by the time I got some knights to his area, he was protected by rifleman armies. But the third and fourth city I checked out he didn't have the armies completed. Plus I had a great general, so even though I don't remember the numbers, I wasn't bad off even when he completed those armies after I landed mine since they weren't fortified yet (what is that---24 vet gg knights versus 15 defense?).

A little gloating is good for the soul. This also goes to show that it's often worth hanging around in the game, even if things look glum for a while. A few good plays and/or laziness on the part of your opponent can really turn things around.

I wanted to go for Oxford, but since he started attacking my side of the map with a tank army, I put my money into Leo's. Perhaps that's considered noobish, but I'm just not good enough yet where in some games I don't have to rely on an easy trick like that. In any event, it helped: my vet tanks with the GG and a fleet of cruisers turned the tide back to my advantage. He was fair, and quit the game without anything suspicious. Yay!

Seems to me like Leo's was the right play in that case. Getting bombers means you have to build them. You already had units to upgrade with Leo's. Just because Leonardo's Workshop is a tactic rather than a strategy doesn't mean it's a bad tactic.

I'll enjoy and celebrate a good game for now... but I still won't think I'm any good until I win at least one decent game against a top forum player. With a busy school year ahead, that may be tough. But I'll find time to play at least every other weekend---perhaps more depending upon how addicted I am.

That's it, Zefelius

I won't speak for anyone else, but if you play a few more games against me, I'm sure you'll win one. I have a little more experience at this point, but that will only get me so far.

[Zefelius]

I won't speak for anyone else, but if you play a few more games against me, I'm sure you'll win one. I have a little more experience at this point, but that will only get me so far.

Stop being so nice. I don't take compliments easily!!

[elthrasher]

Stop being so nice. I don't take compliments easily!!

Too bad. #1) it's a gentleman's game like billiards or dueling with flintlock pistols. #2) you're pretty good.

[Zefelius]

My "luck" with the French has ended. All of it was destined for unranked fun games, in which I won a couple with some great maps and artifacts. Well, I can't really say I won them: ElThrasher and I were just goofing around, having fun, and experimenting. Nevertheless, I was enjoying some surprisingly good fortune at the beginning of those games, and was starting to think that HGB was right all along: with the French you just have to think happy-go-lucky thoughts!! But, alas, as soon as I entered a ranked game where it counted, all of that good fortune ended. Well, not totally: I did a little walk-in on Thebes for Colossus of Rhodes. Yay! But on the way there I noticed a Chinese horse which maliciously grabbed my barb hut from me, and after I attacked him from above and lost (1.5-1.0), I put together a warrior army in addition to the roaming warriors I already had out there. I knew he'd be coming back with a horse army, but my little old warrior army couldn't protect both caps at once, and since I didn't yet have enough gld to put a warrior army into Thebes (I was still w/o archers as my research started with Masonry), I lost it with just one warrior there when my warrior army was on its way just 2 spaces away before his horses took it from me. I did the double move after that, but lost to those horses 3-6 (I think).

So that's 3 ranked losses in a row!! I was doing okay for a while and reached the glorious heights of #89, my highest yet. But after a freeze, an unlucky English versus English game, and now the French versus the Chinese, I have a hunch I'm back down to #200 or #300!! C'est la vie!!!

[Zefelius]

Lost again with the French---this time against TyShine with Egypt. There isn't much to say: he galley dropped one of my cities early as my warrior was on its way back from taking a barb hut as I figured he could make it. The warrior almost did too, but was just one space away from the city before TyShine took it! Oh well.

Perhaps the funniest thing is that I had 2 galleys. I'm not sure if this is just plain dumb or rather crafty, but I had one from a hut that was circling around the continent. I had seen the AoC early, but couldn't get to it. I soon learned that the AoC was between TyShine and myself, and that my galley would never get to it from the other side of the continent. I figured I could always sell my other boat later, so I had fun and made a galley to be sure Egypt wouldn't increase its already good culture. The negative side of getting the AoC early for the French, however, is that it increases the culture too quickly with 3 cities---so that the GP comes before Masonry is finished. So I got the GH instead. That was at about the same time as TyShine swooped down on one of my 3 cities. That left me with 2 to his 5, I think (I made another quickly so it was soon 3-5). I told him he had me. I was willing to play more, but I think he took my message as a sign of defeat. That's okay, though, b/c he was ahead in tech 10-4 and outexpanded me, so I'm sure it would have been painful for me!!

I definitely look forward to our tourney match tomorrow, and hope I put up more of a fight. Good game for him---he seems to do quite well with Egypt.

Zef

[TyShine]

I had six cities with one settler, just got the market in my trade post city so that was nice. I'm pretty sure I saw AoC first, but I don't care about that unless I'm the Aztecs. I had a vet horse army in 10 turns by moving my settler, which you killed with a single warrior, but it didn't matter. I had tons of gold, one or two archers in every city, and settlers being built.

The only reason I had a galley was because I couldn't get to you any other way, after I took Russia. Then I saw your empty city and dropped my hurt blitz horse army and militia. I thought it would attack the militia but oh well.

I am pretty iffy with Egypt. I played El-thraser earlier, he was America(I asked him to be). I got Stonehenge, no gold for a long time. I got together a vet horse army to attack him, but he got Kyto too soon, and got me as I was unloading my horses and an archer.

The two boat thing seemed pretty silly to me, but to each their own. I sold my boat, and wouldn't have gone after those temples until the free nav boat.

[Grayson]

well, my fav civ may change to zulu before long. Not out of choice, or kinda not out of choice, but I've been really liking them in H2H as a counter to the Americans. I don't know if it's the ppl that normally play in my time zone are all shifting toward the americans, or if it should be expected, but normally I don't face the Americans in 75% of my matches in H2H. When I use my test Grayson account, I never run into them, but with my main account (amazingrayson), all I run into is the Americans. So, I just start slaughtering them. none of the games are really that interesting to post here, none of the American players I have run into really have the total package, or I just get the impi game going to well for them to pull anything off, but I have used the zulu about 10 times in the last 3 days, all wins, all vs. americans (i think there may have been one non-american opponet that normally plays them, but they've all just blurred together). Oh well, at least it's a decent excuse to use such a retarded civ.

[Zefelius]

The two boat thing seemed pretty silly to me, but to each their own. I sold my boat, and wouldn't have gone after those temples until the free nav boat.

I think I agree, but since I'm experimenting with the French and having some fun with unranked, I'll try anything once. Overall you kicked my butt. I was hoping for the GB to get Colossus, because then there's less pressure on the French to expand as much. A library plus Colossus with 3 trade tiles (one on growth) acts like 6 science cities in the early game. With 4 trade tiles it's up to 32 science, I think, which is about 8 cities (assuming that in the early game for many civs each science city will be rather low -- about 4 beakers each -- if the player is expanding and thus dropping its pop every so often).

It seems like there's potential there to someone like me who hasn't used the French too often. But just like everyone says on these boards, they're not easy to use. I can see Egypt really taking them out of their game since Irrigation knocks that option out---likewise if they get Colossus. But otherwise I'm still trying to figure out the timing of expanding and teching with them. The tempo of the French is obviously different compared to most civs.

Thanks again for the practice game, Zef

[elthrasher]

I am pretty iffy with Egypt. I played El-thraser earlier, he was America(I asked him to be). I got Stonehenge, no gold for a long time. I got together a vet horse army to attack him, but he got Kyto too soon, and got me as I was unloading my horses and an archer.

We should play a longer match sometime. America vs. Stonehenge isn't really a fair fight at all.

My games against Zef were really awful. As the Aztecs I lost a warrior army to a Chinese warrior, then lost a horse army to his archer (advantage both times) and lost a 6-6 fight against Zef's knights templar. Bleah.

In the Indian game, my knights lost 6-4.5 against Zef's warrior army, giving him a GG. Then my horse army failed to damage his warriors leaving me trapped on a peninsula and unable to retake my city. Ugh.

[TyShine]

well, my fav civ may change to zulu before long. Not out of choice, or kinda not out of choice, but I've been really liking them in H2H as a counter to the Americans. I don't know if it's the ppl that normally play in my time zone are all shifting toward the americans, or if it should be expected, but normally I don't face the Americans in 75% of my matches in H2H. When I use my test Grayson account, I never run into them, but with my main account (amazingrayson), all I run into is the Americans. So, I just start slaughtering them. none of the games are really that interesting to post here, none of the American players I have run into really have the total package, or I just get the impi game going to well for them to pull anything off, but I have used the zulu about 10 times in the last 3 days, all wins, all vs. americans (i think there may have been one non-american opponent that normally plays them, but they've all just blurred together). Oh well, at least it's a decent excuse to use such a retarded civ.

I don't play a lot of H2H, but Ive been picking the Zulu lately too. I haven't ran into an American yet, but that's what I'm looking for. America is weakest in the ancient, and the Zulu tear up the ancient. I almost always get a warrior army in 5 turns, and another soon after. I get caps quicker, and take more gold. I think that unless I'm really far away from the Americans then I can put a lot of pressure on them before CoL. I can track their horses pretty well, and if I kill them its over.

My last Zulu game I started on an island, but I still had time to terrorize the mainland. I initially wrote off the Zulu because of all the weak players using them, but in the right hands they work as a good counter to America.

Maybe I should play you as Zulu vs America games. I'm an ok American player, and not so bad with the Zulu. We could switch roles and see what to do. Plus it could help me get better.