yeah, I had a last minute guest appear. I was online by the time you two changed your minds
yeah, I had a last minute guest appear. I was online by the time you two changed your minds
there are no more games waiting on this one to finish. i suggest you wait until all players can go. it took alot of effort for the entrants to get this far.
I would've been kinda bummed if we played without all four. To be honest, I was going to play Spanish in that semi-final match, but I switched to Aztecs because there were just three of us playing and there'd be more AI to abuse. I don't want the final to be about AI abuse. I want it to be a hard-fought 4-way all the way up through modern (after which I win).Originally Posted by danthechan
Guys,
I can't connect to the network for some reason so I'm debugging now. Give me the standard wait time of 30 minutes although I hope to be on much sooner than that.
thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal
Wow.. that last game was a marathon, and at some points, anyone's game.
too bad I forgot to choke off the area and P2M2 got 4 of my cities, and then my capital a few times.
Since I think we've conclusively proven the Spanish are the 4th civ, that's what I chose to play in the final game. I knew I could get them because I would pick second and MD (picking first) had played the Spanish two games ago. He picked the Greeks, Pedal picked the Aztecs and Headless picked the English.
I settled in my starting spot, even though it wasn't great. I just don't feel confident with moving, although I could've had a whale and two forests if I'd moved the right way. No problem. I had a city there soon enough.
Turned out I was on an island, which was great. There was room for about five cities (although I only ended up putting four on it). I also got a barb for, I think, 40 gold and a friendly that gave me a caravan, which I sold, but no exploration tiles. I had to sell my warriors and work gold for a few dull turns to get to 100 gold, but then I had a galleon and was off and running dropping cities as quickly as I could. I got an early tech lead and picked up some important techs. I think I only missed Literacy and Construction, which MD probably got.
There was a lot of combat on the mainland. Pedal pressed headless early (he'd moved his cap closer to headless) and also took out the Japanese AI. This pretty well let me go ahead and expand all over the place without really being contested. MD was briefly ahead of me in tech until I went to Democracy. From there on out I was at least a couple ahead of the pack. Meanwhile cities were changing hands at an alarming rate (I even took one fom Pedal, just to not feel left out). I eventually got 16 cities, all on islands, the only mainland one being the one I took from Pedal. MD flipped one of mine, but no biggie. I GS'd Corporation and teched Industrialization and was in good shape. Pedal came at me with catapults, but I had a cruiser fleet by then and was able to defend without any trouble.
I didn't go for the econ victory quite as fast as I might've because I wanted to make sure my defenses were solid. I spent a ton of cash rushing Oxford to make sure nobody could get bombers (I got Networking, which really secured my place as the tech leader). Pedal eventually took all the other caps, but didn't have the juice to come after me. I had battleships and modern infantry. Poor headless was eventually eliminated by Pedal's tanks just before I got my econ victory somewhere around 1700 AD. The game took two and a half hours.
yeah.. that map was painfull.. moved my first warrior one space to see an aztec warrior.. moved onto a hill to watch him take the barb near my cap, and attackd next turn 1.5 to 1 only to lose.. had a glimmer of hope when mad reminded us that if we were only 6 tiles apart we could restart (there were 5 spaces between our caps) but it was crushed when pedal told us that he moved his settler (his settler started with only 4 spaces between his and my starting spot, in a perfect diagonal).. any settler movement (even away from caps) negates the rule
..
my 2nd warrior was finishd the same turn i lost my first, and pedal already had hbr and knew exactly where my cap was (5 spaces from his cap).. heh.. risked moving my warrior out of my cap searching for anything, but then had to waste 3 turns building another warrior to stop an aztec walk in.. switchd to 4 science a turn to get bronze eventually, so i could hold off pedals horse army.. my risked warrior found a friendly which gave me a caravan, and i was forced to send it into mads (empty) cap not too far to the right of london, as i was desperate for gold to survive the first 10 turns.. but as i had a 2 pop city between pedal, mad, and thrasher (spanish to the north with a galleon settling cities on the island above me) and they all had multiple cities/techs, the game was over for me within the first 10 turns..
pedals horse army didnt attack my cap as i was english, but it sat on the hill overlooking my cap and eliminated any chance i had at expansion.. i double moved/galley droppd one of pedals cities, but it was quickly taken back.. watched the red sox also lose and every now and then sent knights towards pedal (losing a quick move situation, then a few 4v4s, then a few 6/7.5 v 4s to pedals single archer defended cities) while pedals armies continued to harrass me..
heh, after i was locked in at 4th place i was able to win a few battles that favored me (even one that was tied 6v6
good game to all.. i will happily rematch any of you (tourny-wide) given the opportunity..
i begged you all to eliminate me after the first 20 min, but nooooo.. you all decided to wait until the the very last turn of the 2.5 hour game to do it
I started out on a peninsula that, had I choked it off, I would've been able to keep until the tanks were rolling out. There was a nice forest/river spot on one side and a hill on the other side with moutains in between.
Unfortunately I didn't and p2m2's horse army got in later in the game and took out my poorly defended cities on the mainland (5 of them).
I got a few warriors out initially and was told that the SoC ws right above me. I waited to see if I could find another hut to get me above 100g, but headless and p2m2 had cleared pretty much everything on the other side of the mountains before I got there. so I rushed a galley from Athens and grabbed the SoC. I got two GA's. yay... not so useful. I did flip a Spanish 1 tile island which was nice, but the other GA flipped a poorly defended english city which p2m2 promptly took out with his horse army.
I teched a bit, but without the library or a 100g settler, I wasn't getting very far, so I spent a few turns on gold after finding a goodie hut and rushed the library. I went straight to tech (4 op Athens) and got writing/COL/Literacy/Construction/Math first. Athens got the trading post (4 deserts) and the free workshop (3 hills). At this point I hit Industrial era and switched to COL. (I got my 100g settler from overflow gold).
I put down 3 cities behind the mountains and 3 cities on islands south of my position. I had another settler that I moved inland near p2m2/headless, hoping to drop it and get defenses in so that I could make a courthouse and make use of the 5-6 mountains/etc between us later. unfortunately I hit the Y button instead of the A button to move them to the right spot and they ended up in an ok spot, just not great. it also had 0 prod and p2m2 grabbed it with his horse army shortly after I planted it. (it was closer to him than I planned). I should have grabbed a few more settlers and dropped them on the north islands, but El Thrasher went into Democracy so I knew that if I didn't he'd get too far ahead in tech if I didn't. I started getting a few libraries into my islands, but this is when p2m2 came and took out the mainland cities. I wasn't able to keep up to El Thrasher from that point forward since I had to keep switching back to gold/prod to retake my cities. (I galleon dropped a hoplite back into Athens and kept it. I finally killed p2m2's horsearmy, though he still had 3 of the cities close to Athens).
I started teching again, and decided to go for some big backup to take back cities. p2m2 had GB'd the EiTC really early (somewhere near 0 AD) but no one had bothered teching flight (I think it was tech'd ~1650 AD). I hit metallurgy/Steel first, and of course the cannon and battleship show up in Barcelona. the nice 1 tile island I stole. (eventually I got Automobile first and the free artillery showed up there as well. siege weapons on 1 tile islands are useless! not to mention it was far from my other cities).
so I brough the cannon down to one of my mainland cities and took it back. I was still in Dem. so p2m2 made peace. I brought the cannon to Athens and made another one there (I had a barracks there now) and went after my old double dye/fish city. p2m2 rushed a tank there and killed the fortified militia. so it was down to a button press war to see if the tank or the 1/2 wounded cannon attacked first. I knew I was going to lose that fight, so I moved another cannon and my vet hoplite army onto the hill next to it and waited for him to attack. he did and lost! a 1/2 health cannon beat his single non-vet tank.so I took the city back.
(somewhere around here I galleon dropped one of p2m2's cities elsewhere, but headless got there the turn after I decided not to rush a rifleman.)
I got another cannon out and brought the cannon army + the hoplites on the battleship over to one of El Thrashers 1 tile islands and attacked. I won and my cannons not had blitz. unfortunately I didn't move the battleship fast enough and el thrasher sank it with his cruiser fleet. It would have taken too long to get 2 more battleships out (80 hammers each at 13 hammers/turn). though, it would have likely been a better plan in the long run. p2m2 promptly ran a few tanks into my now open mainland cities and cleared me out, leaving only my 4 island cities.
roughly around here we started telling El Thrasher to hurry up an win.
I almost had combustion first, but p2m2 had GS'd it 2 turns before I finished it. I did get printing press first (and traded it to El Thrasher for Mass Prod) but that was about it. I hit automobile a few turns before El Thrasher won the econ victory, and was 1-2 turns away from Athens with a cruiser + the artillery army.
moral of the story is to remember to choke the area off and I could have kept up with El Thrasher and maybe stole one of Industrialization or The Corporation from him. If I had more patience when I had the battleship, I could've have gotten the fleet together and brought all my usually useless left over units and picked up a bunch of cities.
gg though to all. it was definitely an awesome final to a great tournament, thanks to all the participants.
edit:
for the techs:
I got writing, COL, Literacy, Construction, Math, University, Printing Press, Steel, Metallurgy, and The Automobile firsts. I almost had Engineering first, which would have made the island cities get their libraries faster.
Last edited by MadDjinn; 09-03-2009 at 06:00 AM.
I got Combustion two turns before that the ol' fashioned way. I even made a tank army, but of course I couldn't use it because you all liked me so well by that point they all wanted to be at peace with me all the time.
I got Masonry, Irrigation, Currency (huge!), Engineering, Banking (free from having gold), Steam Power, Gunpowder, Industrialization, Corporation, Railroad, Combustion, Communism, Flight, Mass Production and Networking first. I was a couple turns off Advanced Flight when I finished the World Bank (with 250 extra hammers - I had prod set to the Internet and it would've finished that turn if I hadn't changed production).
Yeah, it got pretty easy to keep the lead when Pedal took out a bunch of your cities, but had to constantly switch out of Democracy due to headless' attacks. Judging by the way you all kept trading cities, mine were the best-defended and least-attacked in the game. Kinda funny. Except for right after settling, I almost always had at least two defensive units per city and eventually (after Leo's) had modern infantry everywhere.
I thought about getting currency right after COL, but I needed the free workshop in Athens.
After you beat me to Literacy, I realized we had a tech race (I went up to Irrigation basically uncontested), so I went on full science to get to Currency first. Maybe you could've beaten me, but maybe not. Maybe it would've depended on which of us joined the game first. *sigh*
Next time you get a workshop in Athens, use it to build a couple hoplites. Sheesh.
I almost never go to Democracy as early as I did in this game, but my expansion stalled a little because I was having some trouble finding new islands (until I returned to the north to settle the not-so-good ones), so I think I got it as my 12th tech, hit Industrial a little after you, but then started really gaining momentum.
Just wanted to say congrats to Elthrasher. It was cool the way you finished off the tourney, rattling off wins in your last several games, after such a noobish start. Things really took off for you after you won that elimination game when you played against me for the only time in the tourney, and for that, I'll take partial credit for your win
I'm glad Spain took the top spot, and it wasn't even close. I am surprised at how well they did, but they are one of the more popular non-power civs, so I guess it's not surprising that people knew how to play them better than the other civs.
I got to use Spain in my first game, crushed the others, and then didn't get to use them again
Anyway, thanks again to MadDjinn for running the tourney, and keeping it going despite some bumps in the road. I thought there'd never be a tourney for XBOX, we had tried many times before and it never got off the ground. Looking forward to H2H now!
Thanks. You actually deserve some credit for schooling me on how to win with the Spanish. But actually, everybody I played in my first three matches (especially pythagorean cat) deserve credit for showing how lazy my play was. I'd developed horrible habits playing against the common gamer out there and obviously with my record of three dismal failures followed by four wins, I learned from my mistakes.Just wanted to say congrats to Elthrasher. It was cool the way you finished off the tourney, rattling off wins in your last several games, after such a noobish start. Things really took off for you after you won that elimination game when you played against me for the only time in the tourney, and for that, I'll take partial credit for your win
I think you would've won easily had you been playing in my place. I'm still not quite as speedy with the econ victory. I know the plays, but don't always have the confidence to zoom right in and make it happen, so I probably work a little more tech than I need to. I don't think this makes victory any less certain (perhaps it makes it more certain), but definitely slows the win.
lol... I do tend to forget those things, since Athens tends to be my early tech city.Next time you get a workshop in Athens, use it to build a couple hoplites. Sheesh.
but after a certain point, it also becomes the best prod city (especially if I get construction first with a few hills).
gotta start defending better and hitting those chokes.
While this will come off as trying to take away something (I'm not, both yourself & the Spanish did well & reliably so), I was a little disappointed the Spanish started on an island in the finals from a "fair fight" point of view. At this calibre of play, an island start w/Spanish is a virtual lock for a win. I absolutely love island starts w/Spanish. Those usually translate into bombers earlier than any other start which virtually guarantees victory. If you'd been on the mainland, I don't think it would have been so easy w/Aztecs running around.
People love to talk about pressing a civ that starts on an island (remember the American island start thread?) & make it sound like it's easy & even simpler than pressing a civ on the mainland but it's all bolagna & exaggeration. It's quite difficult to press any civ on an island until you know where they are located which takes time (lots of time usually). It's especially difficult to press the Spanish when they are on an island. They have a huge advantage on the oceans over anyone else. Given galleys move slowly & most likely you'll have to go to top/bottom edge of the map to find the island in question, it's going to be a long time before you find that civ. In most cases, you won't find them until late BCs or early ADs at best & sometimes not until 1500 AD or later! By then, they've expanded a lot & have much more power than when you found those other civs on the mainland. The finals match was proof positive of this fact. By the time anyone found you it was over & way too late to do anything other than a last ditch effort (my son used cats, I would have gone for Oxford earlier myself) which I knew was going to end in failure. Yet another reason why Oxford bombers work so well for the Spanish. They have their power offshore & early enough which allows them to focus on tech + wealth which is what you need to get bombers quickly & use them effectively once you have them.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
well, I did find an empty Madrid very early (before 0 AD). unfortunately I didn't bring a warrior on the galley.
it was luck that I found him, since I was looking for artifacts, and saw the island he was on.
A spanish on the mainland for the final would have had much harder times surviving, but El Thrasher was able to settle plenty of island cities where you needed to get to the bottom of the map in specific locations to get to them. There was little chance of someone else getting there.
by the way, I need some players to do the Spanish vs. american/zulu/chinese.
obviously El Thrasher/p2m2 will be using the Spanish (and can help with the other ones. I think headless wanted to also play.
I'll do this. I don't mind using any of these civs for the game. I'd be able to do it tommorow night (saturday) if others are able to. I'd be nice to know before I schedule any games for the H2H tourney.
Will there be duplicates of the power civs? Or will it strictly be Spain vs. americans, china, and zulu?
I think I'd prefer no duplicates, it seems more scientific. It'd be a lofty goal for either of the guys to win a game like this, and if it were 3 Americans vs. Spain, it'd be tough. But if someone could win this game, these 2 guys would be on a short list to do so (given that all players are good).
So, sign me up and we'll see if we can work this out.
definitely no dups. it's an FFA, not a 3v1 game, so everyone has to be on their toes.
it's also be 3-5 games, to mitigate 'luck' for any of the civs. (though if the american gets 7 cities every time, well.. )
I always try to bring a warrior or archer on a galley or galleon. The only time I don't do this is if I have to choose between a known reward & putting it on the galley. I've won so many games in H2H before 2000 BC w/drop-offs, it's not even funny. Just make it a rule of them (always try to put at least 1 unit on a boat) & you'll be glad you did.
best regards,
Pedal2Metal
I usually do. it was that exact risk/reward bit. go get the SoC as the greeks for 2 free GPs, or wait 4 turns for the nearest warrior to come and hope the Spanish didn't take it on the way.
Alas for the poor Greeks. I knew you were out in a galley and had found Confucius. The second you went to anarchy, I would've rushed a warrior.
#1 biggest problem with the Greeks.
There's no question I got very lucky in this game by starting on an island. As for a "fair fight"...well I've argued and supported arguments that skill is much more important than luck in this game. But there just isn't much of a delta in skill between those of us who got to the semi-finals and beyond. That makes luck hugely important. My point being if I hadn't been lucky, someone else probably would've.
As for pressing an island nation. I think first that yes, it is hard. But moreover, it was even harder because this was a FFA game with each player trying to get as much as he could out of it.
MadDjinn couldn't press me very well because he didn't have much gold and was desperately trying to stay even with me in tech. I had an income. He didn't really. Then he finally started getting things moving and what happens? Oh, he has all his mainland cities taken from him. Yeah, that kinda sets you back in how much pressing you can get done.
Pedal2Metal2 wanted like heck to press me, but every time he cast his greedy gaze my way, headless attacked another of his cities. Cities were changing hands almost every turn, sometimes multiple times. And Pedal was in Democracy, so headless would take a city and then force peace. Pedal would have to go to anarchy to get his city back. Ouch. He finally came at me with three catapult armies, but it was too late. I had a cruiser fleet and stopped them without much trouble.
the headless 10 never seemed too interested in pressing me. He just couldn't. He was pressed hard by Pedal from the start and couldn't really stay competitive in tech or expansion. I'm sure he would've loved to ram some knights down my throat, but he never came close to having the opportunity.
Oh, and the Japanese AI really wanted to press me, but Pedal took it out in like 2500 BC. A real pity.
If this hadn't been a FFA with four strong players, my being on the island still would've been okay, but it wouldn't have been quite as great for me. One strong player vs. two weak players on the mainland would've been a real advantage for the strong player.
if im really hard pressed for time, ill usually put my militia in my cap and put my warrior/archer in my boat.. i agree with pedal, it is a must having an offensive unit in a ship..
i would love to play in the games with the top 4 civs.. maybe thrasher/pedal would even give me a shot using the spanish.....
Spanish are not top4 after a useless tourney. That only served some fun to some players, and that's not a proof. Spanish are not even top5, maybe top6-7
it's true that the tourney, like the game itself, serves no use. but it was fun and funny.
This is absolutely an imperfect test. I don't think anyone would deny that. But it's the best test so far. The Spanish consistently outperformed the other 12 civs against solid comptition.
I think that's something. What I really think it is is that they are powerful and fairly easy to play. I think the Arabs and Romans can possibly be more powerful, but their strategies are tougher to pull off. With Spain if you get 100 gold, rush a galleon, defend your capital and settle 2-4 whale spots in the next 15 turns, you will at least do okay. That's not really too difficult.
The problem is probably one of defining terms. What does top4 mean to you? What does it mean to me?
It could mean how consistently can MorteEterna win with the civ.
It could mean how consistently can some random player with with the civ.
It could have something to do with how quickly you can win with the civ.
Those are all pretty different things.
In this context the answer to "what does top4 mean?" is "the civ the most players in this tournament consistently do well with." The answer here is the Spanish.
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