Mongol Strategy Supplemental
Mongol Strategy Supplemental
This is another batch of information that is meant to supplement the original thread here:
The Mongol horse rush is a bit slower than most civs due to the usual lack of gold. Additionally, to get it moving faster you need a goodie hut to give it to you rather than researching it. Not all is lost though, as your Keshik army will be needed most games for defense and taking on the AI. In general, donít use a single keshik army against a human opponent unless you know they are not going to defend themselves in time. The AIís are easily able to be horse rushed well into 0 AD with 2 or more keshiks. Just remember that the later you make the keshiks, the longer you'll have to pick off wandering units to get to vet (or use hills) before taking down a cap. If a cap defends too well, move on and get peace. Second cities and the human opponents expansions are all able to be attacked with Keshiks as they are unlikely to have archer armies already. If you get the infiltration upgrade, youíll be at 12 attack, 18 on a hill. So itís very plausible to take out expansion cities that didnít come with a vet archer army in tow. Even if it did, your job is done as they are wasting their production/cash on static defenses.
This section is for post-kicking out warriors, so I won't repeat that part. Here are a few ways to get keshik armies out. The mongols have options, unlike everyone else, and each one works situationally.
For All Cases
In each of the following options, once you start teching HBR, avoid goodie huts until you're done teching. nothing is more annoying than getting 12/20 or more beakers done and then getting it from a goodie hut. it's a waste. if this happens, just hang out by the goodie hut until you're done teching then take it (usually get gold this way). if there's a concern about someone else getting it, stop teching HBR for the turns it takes to get there and make gold instead. switching techs rarely prevents getting HBR.
Option Uno (Fast tech):
Once the 2nd warrior is finished building (3500BC) if youíve spotted a goodie hut leave your 2 workers on forests to make Stonehenge and grab the hut. if you donít get HBR from a hut early, then set both workers to tech. Set each new barb hut (or taken city) to tech to speed up getting HBR. Provided there are close barb huts, you'll get HBR before 3000BC. At that point, switch your cap to production (also other caps) and barbs to gold.
1) Iíve found that itís usually a good idea to spend the extra 2 turns on 2 tiles of forest to store the production before teching HBR. This also saves you the hassle of finding a goodie hut after 2 turns of teching. If someone comes to visit, you can switch back to warriors fairly quickly. If not, then youíve already got 2 turns worth of prod saved for the first Keshik.
2) This option works if you have 1-2 barb huts and can't find a good hut (not goodie) within a few turns and you need HBR fast so that you can start spending gold. (if you got naming tiles or were handed the 7cities on a platter) or if you got a walkin on an cap with a warrior. You'll be stuck with 1-2 keshik making cities and the rest storing gold, so ensure to spend the gold as fast as possible in case someone wanders in and takes a barb hut from you. (since they'll get a bit of gold)
Option Secondi: (slow tech)
Use your two+warriors to go get barb huts. Have your cap store production into the Stonehenge. That'll give you up to 50 prod stored (2.5 keshiks) if you're teching really really slowly via barb huts. Have all barb huts set to tech HBR as you take them. the more huts you grab, the faster the snowball rolls to getting HBR. walkin on a cap speeds this up nicely.
Switch to keshik production (cap + extra cap if you got a walkin) and all barb huts to gold.
a) This is a good strat if you only find 'tech' barb huts early. they can do the teching while you store prod in the cap which is the safest play if there are really early aggressors around (close human, or the usual suspects). You don't lose anything if you lose a hut and you can always switch back to warriors if someone gets too close to your cap.
Option Thrice: (best start)
Your best option is available when you find barb huts that have 2 forests and a grassland tile close to your cap. Grow to 2 pop in the barb cities and then set both workers to store production in stonehenge (along with your cap). Use the other barb cities to start researching HBR. After you get it (see notes) set all other cities to gold production until the first 4 keshiks are out. (1 army and the start of the 2nd army) With this set up you will have a full Keshik army every 5 turns or less depending on the cash you have. Itís best to get 2 or more Keshik armies going, unless you notice your opponent is massively teching by the time you get the second army out. Don't worry, you'll catch up after grabbing some cities. Though, if you know where 2-3 of the AIsí are at, then another keshik army is worth it.
i) Set the single plains tile cities to grow after the first keshik army is out as it takes 10 turns to grow and the extra 2 gold/turn will be less useful than the 4 beakers/turn later. For tech cities with grasslands, you can wait until the 2nd keshik army is out before switching to growth since it only takes 5 turns.
ii) The number of keshik armies to produce is situational. if your opponent isn't getting aggressive with the AI, then 2 is good. If they are, maybe more will be useful since they won't be teching much either. It also depends on how many keshik producing cities you have:
1-2 = 1 keshik army, maybe 2 if you've got enough gold income.
3-4 = 2-3 keshik armies. Situationally dependant (distance, etc)
4+ = 3+ keshik armies. you've got the production, so use it.
Once you are satisfied with the number of keshik armies out and about, go back to the starting strat and continue teching.
In ancient, 2 gold = 1 hammer. so for every water tile you work in the non-Keshik producing cities, you effectively add a hammer to your production city. Rush each Keshik as needed, but if you have the time to spare, only rush the keshik when you are at 2-3 turns left to completion (at 4 hammers/turn it takes 5 turns to make a keshik). This will minimize your expense of gold.
Don't forget that in a taken city, one water tile = 3g. So if you have a choice of 6g or 4 prod, take the prod since it's 8g. (unless it's soo far away as to be too slow, but it shouldn't be since you got a walkin).
In general though, check how much gold youíre production each turn. For each 2 gold/turn, you drop 1 turn off the time it takes to make the Keshik. Ie, if you work a one tile barb hut for 4 turns youíll have 8 gold. At the same time 4 turns of 2 forests means you only need 8 gold to rush. This means the more huts/water tiles being work = faster Keshik production.
If you can get to 8 gold per turn (very feasible), then youíll have 2 Keshik out every 5 turns = 8 turns for an army from a single city. Else, from 3 cities it's 4 turns/Keshik army and a bit of gold left over. Parallel production is the best.
Last edited by MadDjinn; 07-20-2010 at 03:08 AM.
General Keshik Tactics
Use the keshiks against the AI and find more barb huts/exploration tiles where you can as youíre building them. Non-vet horse armies tend to lose more often vs. 4 or 5 defense single archers, so vet them up as much as possible. So if an AI cap has archer armies in it, (or you just have non-vet keshik armies) use their other units (theyíll send out warriors and others) to get to elite status. One great way to do this is to declare war on them and not go to peace until you are elite (or have 2 vet keshik armies). If they had the archer army to begin with, then it won't matter if you're being overly aggressive. Use the 2 keshik armies to take down the archer army and remove them from the game (or leave them for a later strategy twist).
Depending on what your opponent is doing, you should harass them constantly. Donít always attack their cities, but just by having them know youíre there, youíll change what they planned on doing. If you do have 2-3 Keshik armies running around just take their cities. Vet keshiks will overcome archer armies.
Use a galley to drop the keshiks off way behind the lines, or run right past their defenses (in medieval) after harassing a border town.
if you can position your armies on a tile that is 3 tiles away from more than one city, fake attack the city closest to your borders before you move the Keshiks to the rally point, then strike the other city. Humans have this annoying habit of getting too focused on a single target, so when you can make them think that you really really want that border town, theyíll move everything over to prevent that, making it easier to hit them elsewhere. This includes them making roads and shipping legions/cat's to that border.
If they happen to build a road to that border town, definitely use it to strike at whatever cities are on the other side (not the border city) if you can, galley drop militias and archers onto the road (if it's long enough) before you go for that run. It'll mess them up every time. Once you are at 3 or 4 movement per turn, you can be anywhere really fast; make them afraid of that and youíll have the time and land to grow and expand. But don't forget to have one or more keshiks at home to protect your space. medieval keshiks are the best territory defenders in the early game since you can move them around very fast and won't be statically defending just cities (even counter legions and cats are considered static in that situation).
And last but not least, don't forget horse army basics. 2 vet horse armies take down an archer army by having the first one attack and then retreat after doing enough damage with the 2nd army attacking before the defender (if human) can heal. If you have a mix of attack values (vet, non vet, inf, hill, mix) , then use the lower attack value army to do the wounding and the higher attack value unit to do the clean up. worst case, the first army does no damage, so don't attack with the 2nd army. heal the first one, (peace if possible) and then try again. else, even with 1 would, the archer army will drop to even or less and you can kill it with the 2nd army.
Approach cities and hills from the diagonals in case they're camped. (city camp = scout or a courthouse) They won't see you til it's too late.
Use the extra movement to your advantage. if you know there's an opposing HA near you, bait them with a single move towards them, then run back. you still have a single move left, so you can turn around and attack them as they move into the space you left. If you're getting chased, then run them to a hill and turn around. (try to avoid going through forests to get there) Or bait them with one HA to have the 2nd one take them out.
As per upgrades:
Infiltration is best for assaulting a city with an archer army, it does bring your attack value up high enough to allow over runs against 1 def. units, but thatís rare until legions replace warriors. Blitz is best for defense and for hitting cities that arenít already defended by an archer army. I prefer blitz 9/10 times as you tend not to run into full archer armies everywhere. Itís a more useful upgrade as Infiltration doesnít help you against your opponents outside of cities. If you are attacking a city and get an upgrade with the option of March, then take it if you think thereís only 1 unit left or a GP/spy defending. Itís the MP auto blitz feature and the extra movement will help later in the game anyways (no one expects to see a keshik move 4 tiles in 1 turn). If you got the Arc and have a good cultural border, then getting guerilla makes sense if you are staying on the defensive. Medic is only needed against civs that have a built in culture spread or someone who settled a GA in their cap.
Defending against the rush
You have 2 options based upon how early the rush is and how many huts you have gotten. If you have more than 1 type of early rusher in the game (chinese, zulu, american) or a close arab, then try to settle your cap on a close hill if possible. (ensure you still have 2 forests, 2 water and 2 food tiles at minimum). It should go with out saying, but Iíll say it again: Donít settle beside a hill. ever. really. Unless youíre completely out of options. At which point, defend the hill better than your cap since everyone will want to be on the hill. With a hill, a warrior army will kill a horse army; just remember to attack first. If you know itís coming, send 2 warriors behind your cap (best when thereís no hills near you) and leave 2 fortified warriors in the cap. This keeps the flag small. After they attack, bring the 2 warriors back in and make the army to attack them if they were hurt. As long as itís not vet horses sitting in a forest, youíll have a decent shot at killing them. Warrior rushes are easier to deal with. if itís Impiís then just fortify a warrior army and theyíll go away after the first attack; or bring reinforcements. ensure you kill their first army after they attack. Arab warrior armies are a little harder, and you should follow the anti-horse rush strategy. The other option is to have a fortified warrior army and 1-2 more warriors. Attack them before they try to attack you with your single warriors. Youíll lose, but should be able to do some damage.
If you donít have a hill then the only real option outside of the warriors is getting your own Keshik army, or have warrior armies sitting on hills in their attack path. Kill them before they get to you, or let them attack the city when you have multiple units fortified so that they can be hurt before you attack.
This is one of the most common starts. It does help you as youíll have more time to get defenses together, but youíll be less likely to get more than 1-2 barb huts. If after your first 2 warriors are out you havenít gotten to the main continent, or got less than 2 barb huts/goodie huts, make a galley. Drop another warrior on it and check the local islands. Try to choke off the peninsula as best as possible then use your cap as a settler pump (aim for fish locations first). In these cases, making a horse army doesnít work well since it will take 15 turns to get it out and you will likely be left behind in techs and expansion while you make it. If you did get a few huts and can make the Keshik army in 8 or less turns then do it and try to find the AI or upgrade by attacking units wandering around. youíll definitely want to get a few settlers out so that you can get above 20 beakers/turn (10 water tiles being worked) to start. Take the islands where you can, preference going to fish and dye.
If you know right away, build one warrior then a galley. Walk the warrior around to see if thereís an exploration tile or a hut. If itís a big island, then you should have some huts on it to take. If itís a 10 tile or less island, donít expect much. Get the warrior on the galley and drop it off on the mainland. Have your cap make more warriors if the mainland is close so that you can come back and drop them off at other areas. Once youíre exploring ensure that you keep one warrior on the galley and look for potential galley drop spots. Your only real option at this point is to spread to the islands until you have 15-16 beakers/turn then get to Code of Laws. Keep expanding at that point (every city should be on gold so that you can rush faster). to all the islands you can and inconspicuous mainland areas (behind AIs, distant peninsulas, etc. once you get to 30 beakers/turn head to Democracy. youíll likely not be attacked unless your opponents actually go looking for you. Archers (yes Archers) are the only defence you should work on. If you have a 2-3 tile island put archers on the other tiles to ensure they have to attack with massive negatives just to get onto the island. this usually requires vet catapults or cannons.
Youíre basically not expected to win this game, but you can come back if the island was large enough and you got enough settlers out before your opponents got to Industrial. You should be able to backfill a lot of techs after you hit Democracy.
Last edited by MadDjinn; 07-20-2010 at 03:17 AM.
Getting the 100g Settler
If you didn't get the 7cities or enough cash while running around, then you should aim to get your 100 g settler once you've made it to the medieval era.
you should get some cash from overflow, and/or left over cash from the exploration phase.
Once you're in medieval switch to gold (if over 30 tech/turn) and sell a few units to get over 100g.
it's ok if you leave a few cities without defenders, but make sure they are cities with forests and far from the front so that you can make archers (which you should have backfilled BW by this point).
Settle your 100g settler on a settler pump (cow with 2 forests) if you need to expand more, mountains/forests and grassland if you need a production center or on 3 water tiles (preferably with fish) if you need more techs.
barb cities - how best to utilize them
Can you grow your cities?
If you have barb huts that have more than one grassland, and can either be tooled towards a production city (forests/mountains/hills) or a tech city (lots of water) then you should consider doing that. If you expect a long game (FFA game with 2-3 other players who aren’t rushing anyone) then this is a good idea to right away. Your barb cities should be at 2-3 pop (or 2 if you didn’t have the time to grow them before irrigation), before teching.
barb city/capital maximizing
If you have unused water or production tiles in a barb city that also has food available, then you should use all food tiles while growing to the level of pop to use all tiles shifting to food production on those cities to fill up the tech/prod tiles, provided that you can grow in 10 turns or less. If it takes more than 10 turns then just go to tech or production (early game all tech is best).
if you have a city that has 1 or more plains only, then just get to 2 pop and set to water. hope for irrigation and GH's to boost it up.
Last edited by MadDjinn; 07-20-2010 at 03:19 AM.
hmm.. heh.. can a mod move this to the strategy section
thanks for the move.
at least this is in the right section now
Thank you for your great strategies on the mongols Mad. Players will learn plenty from this.
I've updated this thread with newer information. comments welcome.