A German Strategy

[elthrasher]

A German Strategy

I know what you think. Germany is only good for beer and making fun of their David Hasselhoff obsession. Germany consistently makes the bottom 5 in everybody’s tier rankings. I think this is a result of them not having any great advantages in the ancient era (when a lot of the advantaging is to be done) and the belief that they are a one-trick pony; the misconception that Germany is only good for the elite warrior upgrade trick.

So I’m here to tell you that this just isn’t the case. If you can come through the ancient era okay, you will come into full bloom in medieval. This is the time to take the reins of the game and never let them go.

What do you have going for you?

None of your advantages suck. In fact, they all sort of complement one another. Most players don’t expect a whole lot out of Germany, so you could take someone unaware. Once you hit the medieval period, you become hands down the best production civ in the game. The trick is just to press whatever advantage you can gain.

What do you have against you?

You aren’t going to be that great at taking capitols in ancient. You have no technology advantages. You have no cultural advantages. You aren’t the best expander. One of your starting advantages (elite upgrades) doesn’t actually help at all at the start of the game.

So how do you make the most of it?

Production is key. Production can bring expansion (settlers), technology (libraries), culture (temples and wonders) and conquest (tanks and battleships). As long as you can out produce your opponents, you should be able to catch them in any other arena.

Starting out

There’s rarely a good reason to move your settlers as Germany. Sometimes you may want to look around and see if you could move a space to get more forest tiles to work later. Make sure you’ve still got at least two grasslands and two sea tiles (you could try going without sea tiles, but that’s really a tricky advanced strategy that will probably blow up in your face).

Your first goal is to produce 2-4 warriors. You will at least want to spend your first five turns with both workers on trees hammering out warriors. It may be necessary to spend the next five turns at that as well. This is not ideal, but sometimes you have a lot of ground to cover and you don’t get much money. In a perfect world, you will hammer out two warriors and switch to growth, quickly rushing a third warrior. Now go raise hell!

Veteran warriors

This is an okay advantage in the ancient era. For starters, your warriors may be able to bully those of your opponents’. You won’t win every time, even if you have the advantage, but players will tend not to want to attack your warriors as they will normally not do any better than 1.5-1.5. Your hearty warriors will also be able to claim barbs a bit faster. If your warrior has 1 wound, you’ll still have an even 1 strength, typically defeating the 0.5 defense of barbs. Normally I don’t like to attack barbs with wounded warriors. But if they are veteran, the odds are good enough and I’ll attack. This can help you beat your enemies to those precious barbs and get your 100 gold a bit faster.

Elite upgrades

As mentioned before, you’re not probably going to upgrade any units in the ancient era, but that doesn’t mean we don’t want to plan to take full advantage of this bonus later. You should try to get as many of your initial warriors as possible to elite status. Do not form these elite warriors into the same army unless you’ve got a real prize in sight (like a city that doesn’t have archers or something). The plan is to get through the expansion phase and eventually turn these elite warriors into armies using either warriors or legions (doesn’t matter because they have the same price). Then these armies will eventually become elite knight armies and then elite tank armies. I usually try to get two elite warriors, but more is obviously better. It’s just that you won’t normally find enough barbs to make more than two of your warriors elite.

Early rush

Even though your warriors start off as veterans, that doesn’t mean you’ll be very successful at rushing other civs very often. You will need to get to them very quickly, like inside of 10 turns. That’s tough with the plodding German warriors. If you find that you’ve started very close to another player or the AI, you should give it a try. You may have up until like 2500 BC to rush the AI with warriors, but eventually it’ll get archers as well. So it’s really nice to be able to get a free city with your warriors, but you shouldn’t hinge your strategy on it. Good players will never be defeated by your vet warriors.

Early defense

Your vet warriors actually make pretty good defenders against opposing horse armies. A great way to kill an enemy horse army is to pounce from a hill (attack 6) or wait until the horses have killed your archers, then counter attack. I once had an opponent come at Berlin very early with a veteran horse army. I hadn’t researched Bronze Working yet, but I saw him coming and rushed a warrior army. As soon as he came into view, I attacked and beat him 6-4.5. Note that your vet warriors should not be used in lieu of archers. Rather, they should supplement them by counterattacking or, in a pinch, may hold your city against Impis or other fast rushers while you get archers.

Staying in ancient

A trick I’ve been messing around with is trying to get Code of Laws while still in the ancient era, rush a pile of settlers, then get to medieval before settling a bunch of 3 pop cities. To do this, you need to research ONLY these techs: Bronze Working, Alphabet, Writing, and Code of Laws. If you get any other techs, you will end up in medieval and your rush costs will go up. Also, if you begin your turn with 250 or more gold, you’ll wind up with Currency and if your beaker count hits 20, you’ll probably backfill something. So you need to watch all these things and stay in ancient, but accumulate as much gold as possible (under 250) with 3-5 cities. All this can be a little tricky and really all you’re getting out of it is a savings of 20 gold per settler. That’s nice, but not worth bending over backward for. Just make sure you aren’t actually founding these cities until medieval or it’ll be all for naught.

Moving forward

If it doesn’t seem worthwhile to stay in ancient as described above, you should get to medieval as soon as possible. The forest production bonus is what Germany is all about and you want to have it immediately, if not sooner. You should still sort of direct your research toward Code of Laws (unless you got the Pyramid from Angor Wat in which case you need to switch to Republic, get to medieval and then really cut loose) and hopefully get there around the time you reach medieval. The point here is that you don’t want to settle too many 2 pop cities. Those will just take too long to become useful to you.

[elthrasher]

Medieval era

Now you have your +1 forest production. It is time to go nuts. You need to expand as much as possible. The only way to really take advantage of a perk like +1 forest production is to have as many cities as possible. Try to settle as many 2 forest + decent food + trade cities as possible. Those are the best. Of course, not all your cities can be like that, so gobble up the 1 forest spots as well. Although forest is our prime resource, you should still take up any good spots. 2 fish + hills? Sounds great. 1 tile island with whales and dye? Super. You will eventually have access to all of these resources, just like any other civ. You want to take advantage of them, just like any other civ. In addition to all the trade cities you’ll build, it’s a good idea to have an early production city. It will probably start as a settler farm and eventually start making units.

Most of the standard tech paths are appropriate for Germany. If you’re here in medieval and you notice you can still go back and get Masonry/Irrigation, then you absolutely should by all means. But most likely those techs will be gone if your opponents are any good at all. Just check the tech tree and see if any good bonuses are still available. Literacy, Currency and Construction are all good ones to get, probably in that order.

Most likely someone will be teching faster than you at this point and none of those will be available. That’s okay. If I’m a bit behind, I will tech Mathematics and then Navigation. I advise Mathematics, not just because it’s a prerequisite for Navigation, but also because there’s a fair chance someone will get to Feudalism before you do. A couple of well-placed Catapult armies will put an end to that threat fast. They don’t even need to be veteran. You need Navigation not only for better sea travel and possibly to find Atlantis, but also to take advantage of the whale resources, which are maybe the best reasonably-common resources in the game. Get some whale cities. Mmm…whale doener!

At this point you also really need to be assessing your enemies and evaluating the threat they represent. If somebody’s got twice as many cities as you, you need to get on that right now. You just aren’t going to win against those odds. If you’re facing a fast expander, I’d build a couple catapult armies (probably need them to be veteran this time) and an archer army or two in a galleon (galleon fleet, if you can manage it, but you probably can’t) and go get as many of those cities as you can. Catapults should beat archer armies well enough and many fast expanders don’t build archer armies everywhere. You could certainly take this a step further and use your cats to attack whoever you please. You can get pretty far with catapults, as long as you can get the cats to their destination.

Having a city somewhere near the AI is kind of nice at this point because you can just declare war and get an endless parade of useless legions to upgrade your units against. Remember, your elite units will upgrade, so never pass up an opportunity to gain those valuable promotions.

Once you’re done making settlers, you should build archers (build them sooner if necessary). With that +1 production from forests, you’ll have your archer armies together faster than you might expect. After that, most of your trade cities should shift to libraries. These will be done fairly quickly as well and you’ll start making some decent beaker counts. After I have a library, I’ll usually put most of that city’s workers on trade and growth, but if I have production left over, I may set it to a wonder. I’ve had larger cities hammer out the Colossus of Rhodes pretty quickly and gotten the East India Trading Company without having to use a Great Builder more than once.

Industrial era

As I mentioned, those libraries come together rather quickly and I normally have a few done in medieval, which helps to get to industrial faster. There’s really no reason to hang around in medieval, since by this point you shouldn’t be rushing very many units or buildings. You’re mostly hammering them out with your superior production. Now is also a good time to consider going for Democracy because your new cities will have 4 population, so taking 2 pop out of them isn’t that bad. Yeah, you should still be expanding if there are any decent spots available.

You get your weakest bonus at this point, 20 hammer barracks. This is a weak bonus because barracks are not a building you will tend to want to build in the majority of your cities like Libraries. Still, I usually save around 40 hammers per game. I’m often able to put off making a barracks until industrial, but that’s obviously not a good plan if you’re fighting a lot in medieval.

Feudalism should be a major goal in Industrial, if you don’t already have it. You will upgrade your elite legions to knights. Now unless you have a solid tech lead, I wouldn’t advise trying to kill your enemies with just these elite knights. You should build some more veteran knights and have them assume the bulk of the risk (and try to upgrade them). I normally like using my elite knights defensively because I want to make sure they’re still around to become elite tanks. Sometimes I’m teching hard enough by this point that I’ll reach Combustion soon enough and a knight blitz just isn’t going to make a lot of sense.

A normal tech path should probably still be the rule here. I like to get the production-related ones as well as Industrialization and Corporation.

Modern era

And right around the time you’re getting those awesome +5 gold per city bonuses (you remembered to build 20+ cities right? Good.), you’ll hit modern. Using a Great Scientist to get Combustion is almost always a good plan with the Germans. You now have two (or so) elite tank armies and can very quickly put together at least one more. Unless your opponents have a big tech lead on you, you should be able to roll over them very fast. I’m a big fan of tanks + cruisers if I want to try to end the game at this point.
So if you get to modern fast enough and have those elite tanks, you should be able to end the game very quickly. If that doesn’t work or if you prefer a more peaceful path, your 2% interest on gold reserves will provide a nice extra income for the rest of the game. You can do the math to figure out how much gold you’re getting. It can be fairly significant if your reserves are high. No, it isn’t as good for an economic victory as the Aztec, Spanish and Zulu advantages, but those civs are paying higher rush costs to compensate for their extra gold production. Your 2% interest is tax-free!

Playing Germany in the modern era is going to be a lot like playing any other civ, but keep in mind you still have a production advantage over most other civilizations. Your forest tile is worth 3 production. If you build a factory, it’s now worth 6 production. Mongols and Americans may have a few cities with bigger production than the Germans can muster, but overall the German civilization should still be able to produce more. This means if things get kind of tight at the end of the game, your path to victory involves overwhelming your enemies with units. Half-price barracks sometimes helps out again here as a city that had been a science city for most of the game turns into a bomber factory.

Germany is suited well enough for any of the standard victory conditions, but if your opposition is tough, you will probably fall behind in technology for a while. That means that even as you catch up in the modern age, you will need to use your military might to batter your enemy into submission. Your tech path should take you to things that can produce units like Steel and Advanced Flight. Technology and economic victories are also very possible with Germany, but you’ll only get there first if you’re way ahead. Otherwise, you’ll need to use your military to curb the advancement of your enemies. You may think Germany might be suited to a cultural victory because of all that extra production, but most of the time there aren’t enough wonders left to get all 20 cultural points.

[ninja_master]

i guess nice strategy overall. i usually try to build a barracks very quickly spam warriors to get elite w/o fighting. then after like idk however many warriors i spam get iron working to get a lot of legions. do units stay elite after upgrading? never noticed and what is the ugrade order? warriors- legions- knights- tanks? galley- galleon- cruiser- battleship? the best bonuses r probably forest production and gold reserve interest. germans r like idk full game rushers. they cant do like a american/ arab rush but have bonuses to constantly attack during the whole game with cheap barracks and super forests.

[mastermind79]

i guess nice strategy overall. i usually try to build a barracks very quickly spam warriors to get elite w/o fighting. then after like idk however many warriors i spam get iron working to get a lot of legions. do units stay elite after upgrading? never noticed and what is the ugrade order? warriors- legions- knights- tanks? galley- galleon- cruiser- no battleship? the best bonuses r probably forest production and gold reserve interest. germans r like idk full game rushers. they cant do like a american/ arab rush but have bonuses to constantly attack during the whole game with cheap barracks and super forests.

also, archer - pikemen - riflemen - modern infantry
and catapult - cannon - artillery

[RDespair]

Okay, you convinced me. I'm going to give Germans another try in FFA.

[elthrasher]

i guess nice strategy overall. i usually try to build a barracks very quickly spam warriors to get elite w/o fighting. then after like idk however many warriors i spam get iron working to get a lot of legions. do units stay elite after upgrading? never noticed and what is the ugrade order? warriors- legions- knights- tanks? galley- galleon- cruiser- battleship? the best bonuses r probably forest production and gold reserve interest. germans r like idk full game rushers. they cant do like a american/ arab rush but have bonuses to constantly attack during the whole game with cheap barracks and super forests.

I've tried the strat where you get a barracks fast and get a bunch of elite warriors to upgrade. The problem with that is the second you backfill Iron Working, it's over as you can no longer produce warriors. That means you need to keep your beaker count below 30. A faster techer will rush up to knights around the time you're getting legions and will have tanks by the time you get knights. 10 elite knight armies do not beat 2 vet tank armies. Anyway, that strat is already elsewhere on this board, so if you prefer it, follow that one.

The exception to this is if you get a Great Leader. I didn't mention it in the strat because it should be obvious. If you have a Great Leader, settle him in a city with a barracks and produce elite units all game. Totally worth it. It's just not going to happen very often.

Yes, units keep all their promotions when upgrading. Your naval units do not gain promotions, so they don't upgrade from the German bonus, but do upgrade from Leonardo's Workshop.

Right, nothing upgrades to battleships. They are in a class of their own. Horsemen upgrade to knights. Otherwise you've got it right. Thanks for reading.

[ShowtekGER]

Doesn't seem very logical, nor with this strat, that a skilled German player can keep up with an equally skilled top-5-civ player. I think there's much luck required and as soon as this is the case it's not really worth it but for the fun of a tough challenge.

Imo, production will not be able to adopt attributes that food offers. A city with lots of forest won't be a settler farm unless there's lots of food. It will give you a little advantage as you can produce the settler faster but, again, it's just a little advantage.

However, I'm sure this is a strat that really exercises the Germans' bonusses. And as I'm also sure that you're a very skilled player, I do not doubt that you're successful going with it.

I know what you think. Germany is only good for beer and making fun of their David Hasselhoff obsession. [...] Mmm…whale doener!

I do feel somewhat discriminated against. Is that how Americans think of my people?

yeah our beer is pretty nice..

[elthrasher]

Doesn't seem very logical, nor with this strat, that a skilled German player can keep up with an equally skilled top-5-civ player. I think there's much luck required and as soon as this is the case it's not really worth it but for the fun of a tough challenge.

I'm not attempting to make the case that Germany is a top 5 civ, although I just beat two Zulu players tonight, so that's something.

Imo, production will not be able to adopt attributes that food offers. A city with lots of forest won't be a settler farm unless there's lots of food. It will give you a little advantage as you can produce the settler faster but, again, it's just a little advantage.

A 3 pop city with 2 forests and 1-2 grasslands can produce quite a few settlers in a short time once you have Code of Laws. Obviously the food production is important. That's why I suggest getting Bronze Working for fish, Code of Laws for cattle and Navigation for whales as soon as possible. Germany won't be as fast at this as the Romans, won't have the early whales like the Spanish and won't produce high-population cities like the Chinese, but they will have more production faster for producing more settlers (and whatever else you want). That is their advantage.

However, I'm sure this is a strat that really exercises the Germans' bonusses. And as I'm also sure that you're a very skilled player, I do not doubt that you're successful going with it.

I'm better than most but not the best.

I do feel somewhat discriminated against. Is that how Americans think of my people?

Uh...some maybe. It's sort of an inside joke. I have a lot of German friends and have been to Germany three times. Consider it a complement that's all I could come up with. Imagine being an American and all the things people could say about you!

yeah our beer is pretty nice..

I'll drink to that!

[Grayson]

yeah, the germans don't have many great growth bonuses, but the a lot of the good civs don't. It's a matter of converting the civ's strong points into other areas of the game. The Germans are great at two things: domination and production (the 2% intrest gold helps later for eco stuff, but it's not that great that late in the game). Basically, the way to use the Germans effectively would be to either exploit those 2 areas at face value, either by killing everyone, or converting that production into buildings, units, settlers etc.

I think domination comes easiest, but it's a little slow sometimes to promote those units. So, it's the production that really is the key. After 5 techs, the Germans basically have communism for the rest of the game with no downside (not exactly the same as communsim, as it doesn't affect hills, mountains, or any other production bonus you may get like 1st to research engineering or railroad).

If you wanna solve the way to make the Germans have good growth or increase the population, just conver those extra hammers to that goal. This could be done by hammering out settlers quicker. But easier is getting libraries faster, getting markets, teching up to things like irrigation, nav, code of laws, etc.

I still suck with the Germans, but most of my prior exp with them has been trying to focus too much on promoting elite units, and I think this is what you have to limit yourself on. It is good to have a bunch of units that upgrade, but if you're not anywhere near you opponets in tech, it really won't do you much good. If you can find a really good production city very very early, then you can spam a few warrior armies after you build your barracks, but you basically need to have other cities out there too. Staying under 30 tech stinks, and if you are still in the BC and only producing >30 beakers per turn, you will most likely not be quick enough.

I like the idea of expanding, taking advantage of the production bonus, and hopefully get right up there with the other guys in tech. Having vet units all over the map after 14 techs is really nice, and Getting a city with 4 forest around it is killer.

It's just hard to find a way to make them a step faster, but I'm just gonna have to play with them more, because I really do suck with them. I've won more games with the Russians than I have with the Germans, and that's sad. All the Germans bonuses are decent, whereas the russians pretty much have the most average/terrible bonuses in the game.

[antone821]

[QUOTE=I do feel somewhat discriminated against. Is that how Americans think of my people?

yeah our beer is pretty nice..[/QUOTE]

Beerfest was not a movie to help then

[elthrasher]

Last night I was able to take advantage of elite promotions in the late game. I was playing against two Zulu, quite a pain. I got very little gold and had a slow start. I also didn't manage to make any warriors elite.

Eventually I got some island cities and forced my way onto the mainland and I was doing okay. One of the Zulu quit and the other was leading me in tech, but I was closing the gap fast like a marathoner in a taxi.

I was kind of struggling with my best strategic move when the three AI civs (oh, forgot to mention I gave them all Bronze Working in 3000 BC - HA HA Zulu!) sort of went haywire and attacked me. Did my opponent pay them to go to war? If so, thanks! I built just two knight armies, because I was going to have Combustion soon anyway. It didn't take long at all to make them elite. A couple turns later I had three tank armies in a cruiser fleet on the way to crush my enemy.

[ShowtekGER]

Last night I was able to take advantage of elite promotions in the late game. I was playing against two Zulu, quite a pain. I got very little gold and had a slow start. I also didn't manage to make any warriors elite.

Eventually I got some island cities and forced my way onto the mainland and I was doing okay. One of the Zulu quit and the other was leading me in tech, but I was closing the gap fast like a marathoner in a taxi.

I was kind of struggling with my best strategic move when the three AI civs (oh, forgot to mention I gave them all Bronze Working in 3000 BC - HA HA Zulu!) sort of went haywire and attacked me. Did my opponent pay them to go to war? If so, thanks! I built just two knight armies, because I was going to have Combustion soon anyway. It didn't take long at all to make them elite. A couple turns later I had three tank armies in a cruiser fleet on the way to crush my enemy.

I always thought this would only help when you have a massive amount of units as you mostly will chasing the other ones in tech. Especially by the time I hit combustion I can really, really easily have three vet tank armies due to a decent gold production which had set in a long time before that. But if it was enough to break the Zulu guy down - congratulations. I still think it's possible because you're more skilled than most other players.

[elthrasher]

I always thought this would only help when you have a massive amount of units as you mostly will chasing the other ones in tech. Especially by the time I hit combustion I can really, really easily have three vet tank armies due to a decent gold production which had set in a long time before that. But if it was enough to break the Zulu guy down - congratulations. I still think it's possible because you're more skilled than most other players.

I insult your people and you just respond with flattery.

I made a lot of mistakes in the ancient era in that game as usual, but I think upgrading the knights was pretty nice, even if I would've had tanks anyway. I didn't have a whole lot of money and I already had to rush a cruiser fleet (I was not first to Steam). One of my armies had Infiltration and the other had Blitz, so that was pretty great.

Even if I had all the money I needed to rush those tanks, it would still take several turns to rush eight tanks (I had one free). Instead I timed things so I'd have my cruiser fleet ready to go and could pick up a couple extra tanks along the way to make an army out of my free one. I was literally attacking my enemy with three tank armies three turns after I got Combustion. I don't think many other civs can do that as easily as I was able to.

[Swedish Chef]

First of all...good strat. By focusing on expanding while keeping pressure on your opponents, you will probably win a good number of games. However, I'm still not convinced that the Germans aren't one of the worst civs.

My problem with the Germans is that it takes so long to get to the point where they're strong in tech and population compared to many of the other civs. This means that just about every game, you're going to be playing from behind. The great situation for the Germans isn't better...or is only slightly better...than the average situation for most other civs. When I look at a civ, I consider the 3 different starts...great, average, and poor. Great is when you have land that fits your civ easily accessible, you're able to get an artifact or two that fits your civ well (7 cities for americans as an example or the ark for the Aztecs), and you get your 100 gold quicker than usual. If you're a rusher civ...maybe this means the AI near you is Spanish or Roman and you get their 4 pop city and then navigation or COL free early. Average means you get your 100 gold, there's some good land and some bad land. Poor means you don't get your 100 gold and you're pinned in on a peninsula or between multiple civs so you have little expansion room. Thus...I judge a civ based on what would makeup the great, average, and poor and how well it would do against the enemy civs that get an great, average, or poor start...and also what the likelihood of them getting a great or poor start vs other civs is. An example of this is that most civs going up against the Zulus are much more likely to get a poor start as the Zulu warriors will usually get to the middle of the map barbs and sometimes will even get to the barbs that are close to you first. Thus, you're less likely to get your 100 gold, which basically foobars every strat (and is one of the main reasons Zulus are good and everybody hates them). Arabians have a detrimental effect on their opponents starts most of the time as you gotta worry about them getting horses and coming after you. This slows you down as you gotta get bronze workign earlier and build some archers...which means you're not producing settlers or whatever else it is you would have wanted to produce. Germans, on the other hand, do not have anything that affects their enemies starts and are relatively susceptible to getting poor starts in a FFA where everybody is running warriors around (most civs are). However, the Germans also don't have anything that would easily lead them to a great start either. Their ideal land locations...lotsa forests, grasslands, water...won't push them ahead in tech for quite some time and they'll still need time to grow their cities to get caught up.

So...compared to other civs that have to deal with coming from behind techwise a lot, how well do the Germans do? I think some of the Civs worth mentioning here are the Russians, French, Romans, Arabians, Indians, and Mongols. Arabians (if they don't HBR rush for some odd reason), still have fundamentalism early and their cavalry bonus in industrial, plus early catapults, basically means that they're a very nasty threat for a tech leader all the way up to the point where they get rifleman (and even then its hard to *really* feel safe). Indians get fundamentalism early and a lot of times players intentionally get behind in tech as they go hard for legions and the pressure usually drops their opponents, even if they're defending well. Romans fall behind early a lot...but they also expand so well that they have a reasonable chance of catching up in tech by tanks. Mongols...in cases where they're not rushed...have more cities and their knights are a menace to society and easily produced with the mountains bonus. Its also pretty common to find a city location where you've got 2 mountains, 2 forest, and 2 food (while is uncommon to find a spot with 4 forests). Thus, in the come from behind scenario that is the average game, I'd say these civs have an advantage over the Germans.

Now the Russians and the French, on the other hand...don't really have good come from behind strategies. The Russians can find more viable city locations due to their plains bonus...but generally once they're behind, they stay there. French...well unless they get some sweet GPs or someone settles near them so they can flip their cities...they're basically a non factor.

[elthrasher]

So...compared to other civs that have to deal with coming from behind techwise a lot, how well do the Germans do? I think some of the Civs worth mentioning here are the Russians, French, Romans, Arabians, Indians, and Mongols. Arabians (if they don't HBR rush for some odd reason), still have fundamentalism early and their cavalry bonus in industrial, plus early catapults, basically means that they're a very nasty Smilies threat for a tech leader all the way up to the point where they get rifleman (and even then its hard to *really* feel safe). Indians get fundamentalism early and a lot of times players intentionally get behind in tech as they go hard for legions and the pressure usually drops their opponents, even if they're defending well. Romans fall behind early a lot...but they also expand so well that they have a reasonable chance of catching up in tech by tanks. Mongols...in cases where they're not rushed...have more cities and their knights are a menace to society and easily produced with the mountains bonus. Its also pretty common to find a city location where you've got 2 mountains, 2 forest, and 2 food (while is uncommon to find a spot with 4 forests). Thus, in the come from behind scenario that is the average game, I'd say these civs have an advantage over the Germans.

Most of what you're saying I agree with. The Germans often do end up having to come from behind. Well, I'm often in that situation because I play so many people who build four cities only and rush libraries, then get ahead in tech (of course). I think Germans have some great advantages for coming from behind. Romans might close the game by building a 100 hammer EITC or something, but other than that, their advantage was spent in the ancient era. Code of Laws? I've got that now too.

I really don't think Mongols edge out Germans at all when it comes to production. The German bonus comes a whole age earlier. Forests are more plentiful than mountains. Your Mongol 2 forest 2 mountain city produces 6 hammers in medieval and 10 hammers in industrial. Germans in the same spot produce 8 hammers in medieval and industrial. You've had however long it takes to get those 9 techs (maybe 20 turns? I'm bad at keeping track of these things) with extra production. The key is to get stuff done in medieval.

The Indians and Arabs are actually two of my favorite civs to play because you don't really have to worry about technology that much. It's kind of a relief. Just go take some cities. They are highly specialized in this way. Germany can maybe compete by producing an extra catapult army or by also having libraries and teching up to knights. I wouldn't consider Germany to be as specialized (or as able to be specialized) as those two.

I think Germany is actually a very good come-from-behind civ. You've got a lot of production and eventually cheap barracks to build lots of units to take cities from a fast expander. You can also use that extra production for libraries. 2 forests = 6-7 turns. 1 forest = 13 turns. You can do all this without needing very much gold at all. I usually hit modern with a tidy sum in the bank and start making good interest.

[Swedish Chef]

Most of what you're saying I agree with. The Germans often do end up having to come from behind. Well, I'm often in that situation because I play so many people who build four cities only and rush libraries, then get ahead in tech (of course). I think Germans have some great advantages for coming from behind. Romans might close the game by building a 100 hammer EITC or something, but other than that, their advantage was spent in the ancient era. Code of Laws? I've got that now too.

I really don't think Mongols edge out Germans at all when it comes to production. The German bonus comes a whole age earlier. Forests are more plentiful than mountains. Your Mongol 2 forest 2 mountain city produces 6 hammers in medieval and 10 hammers in industrial. Germans in the same spot produce 8 hammers in medieval and industrial. You've had however long it takes to get those 9 techs (maybe 20 turns? I'm bad at keeping track of these things) with extra production. The key is to get stuff done in medieval.

The Indians and Arabs are actually two of my favorite civs to play because you don't really have to worry about technology that much. It's kind of a relief. Just go take some cities. They are highly specialized in this way. Germany can maybe compete by producing an extra catapult army or by also having libraries and teching up to knights. I wouldn't consider Germany to be as specialized (or as able to be specialized) as those two.

I think Germany is actually a very good come-from-behind civ. You've got a lot of production and eventually cheap barracks to build lots of units to take cities from a fast expander. You can also use that extra production for libraries. 2 forests = 6-7 turns. 1 forest = 13 turns. You can do all this without needing very much gold at all. I usually hit modern with a tidy sum in the bank and start making good interest.

Well, the Romans would fall behind a good techer civ...but would be able to keep up in the cities department. They're more likely to be able to get 15-20 cities pretty quick than the Germans are. Thus...they might 'come from behind' in tech, but they're setting themselves up for that comeback a lot earlier. They can be countered if they don't do things right...but a techer civ usually doesn't press too hard. In an average game against the Germans, they'll have quite a few more cities and the Germans will be trying to catch up to them.

Mongols...they have a better upside as well. An average mongol game they're getting a few free cities. If played correctly, they can multiply those cities and thus get themselves into the position where they're the dominant civ...Germans probably won't get to that point anytime soon unless there are other factors at play (like the two other players fighting hte whole time). Its debatable I suppose...but I'd take the Mongols over the Germans too.

Anyway though...I'll give it a shot with Germans sometime. I guess I shouldnt' knock it till I try your strat out. I do know the elite knights thing doesn't really work...tried that a couple times to no avail (and countered it plenty of times myself).

[ShowtekGER]

Can you tell us about games you lost with the Germans and why you lost them? Nobody ever really reports their own defeats but instead how they were able to win using the particular strat. Would be interesing to hear what went wrong.

[antone821]

Now the Russians and the French, on the other hand...don't really have good come from behind strategies. The Russians can find more viable city locations due to their plains bonus...but generally once they're behind, they stay there. French...well unless they get some sweet GPs or someone settles near them so they can flip their cities...they're basically a non factor.

I know a ok come from behind strat with the Russian. Granted it will be stopped by someone who knows what they are doing. I call it the Russian rifle rush and basically just build 40 - 50 rifle armys with a battle ship fleet and you will overwell any city and an artillary army or two to get rid of tanks because they will heal and it not work. But even if got 5 fortified modern infantry armies behinf walls they will still fall.

[Think_Before_You_Speak]

I know a ok come from behind strat with the Russian. Granted it will be stopped by someone who knows what they are doing. I call it the Russian rifle rush and basically just build 40 - 50 rifle armys with a battle ship fleet and you will overwell any city and an artillary army or two to get rid of tanks because they will heal and it not work. But even if got 5 fortified modern infantry armies behinf walls they will still fall.

Lol at 40 to 50 armies. Ha. Seriously try to be realistic.

What happens if enemy is Aztec? - even if he is a bad player. You will lose because of autoheal if he has modern infantry as you say.

[elthrasher]

Can you tell us about games you lost with the Germans and why you lost them? Nobody ever really reports their own defeats but instead how they were able to win using the particular strat. Would be interesing to hear what went wrong.

Great question, and may others chime in as well. I tried the elite warrior upgrade thing three times in FFA games and it only worked once. I was able to put together 10 knight armies and take the capitol of a player who was far ahead of me in tech. I think this only worked because he didn't realize what I could do and figured he was safe in his superior tech. If he'd attacked first, I probably would've lost.

My other two games didn't work out well at all. In one, I had maybe 7 elite warrior armies when my opponent attacked with knights. Warriors don't kill knights very easily. I lost a couple cities and quickly researched Iron Working to upgrade my warriors. I killed a couple of knight armies and lost a couple legion armies in the process. My opponent was able to keep spitting out more and more knights which cost me most of the rest of my elite legions, pretty much leaving me with nothing to show for all my work. I think he eventually got Berlin and I quit or something.

Another time I got my 10 elite knight armies around the time my enemy got tanks. He didn't have much in the way of defenders, so I was able to take a few of his cities, but then the tanks would roll up and blast my knights to pieces. I kept taking cities, hoping I'd get Combustion from him and upgrade my knights. It didn't work and eventually he killed all my knight armies and took back his cities, again leaving me with nothing.

The next time I played Germany after that, I hadn't quite learned my lesson, but I got off to a great start, taking out the nearby AI with warriors and getting a pile of gold and expanding very quickly. I realized that with all the cities I already had and all the cities I was likely to be able to produce in the next few turns (maybe I had Republic already from Angor Wat or something), I was much better off sticking to a more traditional strategy and went on to hold a solid tech lead for the game and win pretty easily (don't recall if it was with tanks or everyone quitting or what).

I've only lost once in the last couple weeks with Germany. I just had a really rough start and another German player in the game went for a horserush strat and took out several capitols. He tried for mine, but I had the archers to stop him. So he just teched up to Feudalism and upgraded his elite horses. Not much I could do at that point because I was way behind in tech and didn't even have Mathematics yet. His horses made expansion very difficult and he had a lot more cities than I did.

I'm not sure about a German horserush strategy. It really worked for this guy, but you really have no advantages at all in getting the horses out. I guess you can take out the AI and weak players pretty well, but you have to have a good map to pull it off. The elite horse armies will upgrade nicely. I guess with a good enough start, you can really horserush with any civ.

[MorteEterna]

I think germans strategies are pretty the same, however I would add that you can work on iron working until you are like 26/30, then if you need help you can research it in one turn. Veteran legions can beat knights and few players go for iron working

[antone821]

Lol at 40 to 50 armies. Ha. Seriously try to be realistic.

What happens if enemy is Aztec? - even if he is a bad player. You will lose because of autoheal if he has modern infantry as you say.

It does not work on them but any other civ it will beat with the arteillrys help but you need a half decent empire because even half price 40-50 armies is a lot.

[Grayson]

yeah, against the aztecs, you're just gonna have to tech faster to get more advanced units, but the good thing about facing the aztecs is that they often only defend with one army, since they are relying on the auto-heal bonus, so you either need a strong attack or a lucky win.

but elite units with the germans help, most of their units will be at least vets over time, so they probably have one of the better chances of killing the aztecs out of most civs.

[elthrasher]

I don't normally have to worry about wearing down an army. I usually just have the firepower to take it out. We discussed in another thread the only recent time that I actually did have to wear down an opposing army (I suppose I might've lost that game if he'd been Aztec).

Anyway, I may lose an offensive army to bad luck now and again, but most of the time I'm killing a defending army with each attack. The Aztec bonus isn't a factor.

[elthrasher]

It does not work on them but any other civ it will beat with the arteillrys help but you need a half decent empire because even half price 40-50 armies is a lot.

Isn't having 8-10 tank armies better for the same price?

[danthechan]

spamming the riflemen could be good if you don't make armies and get them entrenched. you need to have an attacking army or 2 that can kill tanks to take advantage of this.

[Swedish Chef]

Well, 40 rifleman armies is a little much seeing as that'd cost you 1200 hammers (plus the 240 for the battle ship fleet). As an attack strategy, the idea is that you'll be using the bships naval bonus to augment the riflemen, which will lead to a pretty decent attack value. As your units are so cheap, you'll be able to rip through their defenses without a whole lot of trouble. Won't work on Aztecs that have a superior defense set up (walls/modern infantry/their own bship fleet) but it does have a good shot at taking down other enemies. Granted...8 tanks armies would do the job a lot better. If you're looking at 2 tank armies vs 10 rifle armies (which is a little more likely of a scenario) then a case maybe could be made to use the rifles. Counter attacking will be useless for them, which is nice. This works better with the English and their double naval support bonus though. Overall...the Russians are usually already in trouble by the time the game gets to that point...if they've survived the arrival of tanks, then they're just as likely to be able to win with bombers or tanks as they are with riflemen.

[elthrasher]

Tanks actually have a higher defensive value (6) than riflemen do (5). Riflemen can defend a little better because they can build fortifications. I'd still rather have a couple tank armies and maybe one rifleman army.

Tanks never have to heal and they can get promotions like Blitz and Infiltration.

[antone821]

Yeah but the point is you are hurt way less at the death of the riflemen armies than tanks. I can have 5 rifle armies for one tank army and 5 should always beat modern infantry and the tank may not

[elthrasher]

Yeah but the point is you are hurt way less at the death of the riflemen armies than tanks. I can have 5 rifle armies for one tank army and 5 should always beat modern infantry and the tank may not

I wouldn't try to take modern infantry with just tanks. Naval support usually puts them over the top. I generally try to go to war against modern infantry with three tank armies, a fleet (battleships, if possible, but cruisers can work) and maybe a defensive army like riflemen or modern infantry, if I have them.

I've had a lot of success this way. Getting Blitz on a tank army really just makes it two armies. Infiltration + battleship fleet is a sure winner. Add that to the increased mobility of tanks and I'm just not seeing the advantage of riflemen. Could be if I tried a couple times it would change my mind about them, but I kind of doubt it.

Very late in the game, I will generally just use modern infantry + battleships with bombers. Once the bombers soften up the target, I'll attack with the modern infantry. I haven't ever tried just going and attacking with defensive armies, though I've seen others try without much luck. Of course with the English, you can just use warriors, if you want.

[antone821]

Yeah the english can pretty much attack anything with their navy but what I also love about the rifle attack is their will not be any costly fluke battles which is great. When I use the knight rush with England and I lose first battle as a fluke it just a waste but with the Russian rifle rush it only 30 hammers.

[Pedal2Metal]

Can you tell us about games you lost with the Germans and why you lost them? Nobody ever really reports their own defeats but instead how they were able to win using the particular strat. Would be interesing to hear what went wrong.

Excellent request. We always learn more from our defeats than we do our successes.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Pedal2Metal]

Well, the Romans would fall behind a good techer civ...but would be able to keep up in the cities department. They're more likely to be able to get 15-20 cities pretty quick than the Germans are. Thus...they might 'come from behind' in tech, but they're setting themselves up for that comeback a lot earlier. They can be countered if they don't do things right...but a techer civ usually doesn't press too hard. In an average game against the Germans, they'll have quite a few more cities and the Germans will be trying to catch up to them.

Mongols...they have a better upside as well. An average mongol game they're getting a few free cities. If played correctly, they can multiply those cities and thus get themselves into the position where they're the dominant civ...Germans probably won't get to that point anytime soon unless there are other factors at play (like the two other players fighting hte whole time). Its debatable I suppose...but I'd take the Mongols over the Germans too.

Anyway though...I'll give it a shot with Germans sometime. I guess I shouldnt' knock it till I try your strat out. I do know the elite knights thing doesn't really work...tried that a couple times to no avail (and countered it plenty of times myself).

Interesting discussion, I'll throw my $0.02 in the pot...

Romans are one of the best "come-from-behind" civs, if not the best IMO. Romans don't need to keep up in tech if you use the Medieval bonus properly & have 2 production cities. I've never lost w/Romans w/2 production cities although I've lost plenty of times in the first 20 turns which is where I'm open prey to rushers (I'm working on that however). I'm usually 5-10 techs behind sometimes closer to 15 which simply means the other guy is feeling quite secure which works to my advantage. I can still have a genuine shot at coming back using the Medieval bonus properly along with precise tech tree & production timing. 1/2 cost wonders allows the Romans to do things that can instantly change a game which no other civ can do as efficiently. When planned & executed properly, it's absolutely devastating. It doesn't always work if the other player is shrewd & techs defensively to preemptively disable the key wonders of the Romans and/or builds a key wonder himself or gets Great Builders for GP but if you leave the Romans alone, you are likely going to be in trouble, even if you get tanks first.

Mongols over Germans? I'm not so sure. I've never lost to Mongols ever. They are usually dead before 2500 BC & thus never get to power. They take forever to get $$ & BW & archer army so you can rush them with just about anything & make it work. If they make it to Industrial, they are going to be a problem so the key is to annihilate them early in the game. I find the Germans have better ability to survive the early game than the Mongols although the Mongols will get stronger as the game goes on.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Swedish Chef]

Interesting discussion, I'll throw my $0.02 in the pot...

Romans are one of the best "come-from-behind" civs, if not the best IMO. Romans don't need to keep up in tech if you use the Medieval bonus properly & have 2 production cities. I've never lost w/Romans w/2 production cities although I've lost plenty of times in the first 20 turns which is where I'm open prey to rushers (I'm working on that however). I'm usually 5-10 techs behind sometimes closer to 15 which simply means the other guy is feeling quite secure which works to my advantage. I can still have a genuine shot at coming back using the Medieval bonus properly along with precise tech tree & production timing. 1/2 cost wonders allows the Romans to do things that can instantly change a game which no other civ can do as efficiently. When planned & executed properly, it's absolutely devastating. It doesn't always work if the other player is shrewd & techs defensively to preemptively disable the key wonders of the Romans and/or builds a key wonder himself or gets Great Builders for GP but if you leave the Romans alone, you are likely going to be in trouble, even if you get tanks first.

Mongols over Germans? I'm not so sure. I've never lost to Mongols ever. They are usually dead before 2500 BC & thus never get to power. They take forever to get $$ & BW & archer army so you can rush them with just about anything & make it work. If they make it to Industrial, they are going to be a problem so the key is to annihilate them early in the game. I find the Germans have better ability to survive the early game than the Mongols although the Mongols will get stronger as the game goes on.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Well, Mongols are a sink or swim civ. If they manage to swim, then they can do just fine in the early going. Rushers are a big problem for them...though I wouldn't say much more so than any other civ. Germans I guess are more likely to survive a good horserush...but will have similiar problems with it.

Which Roman wonders would have that big of an impact on the game that you could overcome a 15 tech deficit? 5-10 techs behind early isn't so bad as long as you're getting plenty of cities. When you go full tilt and start getting libraries, you can close that gap. Especially if you get EIC. But 15 techs...that'd mean you might not even have knights when he gets tanks!

[Grayson]

I've been working on the Germans a little more since I'm pretty awful with them, and I must say, they are a lot easier to use in H2H than on FFA. Mainly because it's easy to get AI caps with vet warriors.

I'd recommend almost always pumping out at least 4 warriors in H2H, then try to go for Code of Laws and other things.

The unit promotion thing is better suited for FFA, since you generally have a little more time to do things in FFA. In H2H, it's just a little too slow. But I still don't think it's worth the risk to go all out for it, unless you've got a nice production city early (not too hard to do), and you can afford the settler for a city that's basically just gonna pump out a barracks and warriors while staying below 30 beakers.

But in general, the forest production bonus can be deadly in many ways, and allows so much flexibility it sometimes gets retarded. The only problem is I often get on maps where i can't settle next to a whole lot of forests.

[tsizzle]

that's weird because most of a time you are on a map where basically you are 2 grass, 2 forests, 2 ocean, and 2 of something else (usually another sea or hill/mountain) so you shouldn't have a prob with that unless there is something that I don't know about multiplayer.

[Woolgatherer]

that's weird because most of a time you are on a map where basically you are 2 grass, 2 forests, 2 ocean, and 2 of something else (usually another sea or hill/mountain) so you shouldn't have a prob with that unless there is something that I don't know about multiplayer.

That's 1 city, now what about the other 14-18(or however many)?

[Grayson]

yeah, you always get the 2 forest, 2 grass, 2 ocean, 2 random tile start.

it's what's around to settle that makes the real difference. The capital is usually my worst city, so I don't usually care about it. I just want some good spots close to it where I can settle and take advantage of the forests.

[Pedal2Metal]

Well, Mongols are a sink or swim civ. If they manage to swim, then they can do just fine in the early going. Rushers are a big problem for them...though I wouldn't say much more so than any other civ. Germans I guess are more likely to survive a good horserush...but will have similiar problems with it.

Which Roman wonders would have that big of an impact on the game that you could overcome a 15 tech deficit? 5-10 techs behind early isn't so bad as long as you're getting plenty of cities. When you go full tilt and start getting libraries, you can close that gap. Especially if you get EIC. But 15 techs...that'd mean you might not even have knights when he gets tanks!

Yep, that's right. I don't even have knights many times when they have tanks. Oxford University. Bombers in Industrial Age. It's a game-changer every time. Bombers trump tanks. Normally folks don't bother getting flight. Even if you lose, I guarantee the other guy will be backpedaling.
There are 3 x-factors in this game: GP, Wonders, Artifacts. Romans get a huge advantage with respect to wonders but few Roman players use it effectively. They over-expand, get dominated, & conclude "the Romans suck". They are a little less easy than some other civs but quite rewarding & fun to play.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[elthrasher]

Yep, that's right. I don't even have knights many times when they have tanks. Oxford University. Bombers in Industrial Age. It's a game-changer every time. Bombers trump tanks. Normally folks don't bother getting flight. Even if you lose, I guarantee the other guy will be backpedaling.

I don't think it's that they don't bother with Flight. Flight is an expensive technology. Unless your opponent is sitting on another Great Scientist to spend, odds are he can't get Flight in time to turn the tide of battle.