you don't need the pre-req's for Leo's either.
you just need to have the techs and the ability to produce the units. The only issue is when you are lacking a middle unit's tech. Ie, you have IW and Combustion but don't have Feudlism you won't get tanks.
That's what I said, thenOriginally Posted by MadDjinn
Wow, I'm always wrong. Don't listen to me, ever.
but this just shows you how much I actually use Leo's Workshop, which is rare, but effective when I do use it.
Also, I don't use the German warrior upgrade a whole lot, I like to use their +1 forests bonus a lot more, but coupled with the warrior upgrade thing, it's kinda nice.
What I do like about the Germans when I get them lately, is that they are tough for others to kill. The +1 forests bonus makes it easy to produce units, buildings, settlers, wonders, whatever. Couple this with any other production bonus and they are killer.
The half cost barracks bonus, while not being the best, can really ensure your survival against a lot of rushes, if your offensive game isn't going that well. Vet archers, pikes, and riflemen, plus vet counterattacking units, makes it easy to ward off oncoming units.
The problem is if they other players get too far ahead in tech, and start hitting you with units that are a little to advanced to defend against.
Just a small note to add to this strategy: when you are building your elite warriors and trying to avoid getting IW by keeping your beaker count under 30 for the turn you finish a technology, you are much safer if you do NOT form the elite warriors into armies, but keep them individually. Note, if you had any non-elite left from initial exploration, then do form those into armies with some elite, but keep the rest of the elite warriors on their own. Why? Because you may get IW unintentionally from other sources, like barb/hut or taking an enemy city. E.g. Last night I played h2h with Germans, got 3 armies made already and 4 individuals (2x2 in two different cities pumping them out) when I came across the AI Washington with a wondering march+inf+blitz warrior army. I was 2 tiles from the city and when the turn ended I saw they walked out with archer army+settler. I jumped on the opportunity to get a free cap, since I knew they would only have a single archer (not even fortified) in the city and I can take it with the warrior army. So I did, but when I took the city I got IW from it ! Bummer... Luckily I still had 4 individual elite legions now so I could still form 4 more armies with them being joined to non-elite ones I built after, but I still ended up with only 7 elite armies. If I had kept two more armies separate I could have formed 6 more after the 'accident'.
Well I didn't write it because I usually don't want to attack AI or others having Iron working.. Too risky, however I will add it, also that I usually build more cities than 3..
what the ... am i actually supposed to build all my warrior armies before i hit 30 beakers? does this mean i may only get CoL/irrigation to get to medieval for the production bonus? and backfilling IW does not make my warrior turn into legions? that explains a lot of my today's game. meeh.. well, shouldn't be that much of a problem. just makes it more complicated i guess.
You can have more than 30 beakers. You just have to lower your beaker count the turn you complete a tech to avoid backfilling. Yes, backfilling will upgrade your warriors, but then you can't produce any more elite warriors. Tech path is CoL->Monarchy->all but one turn on Feudalism->Iron Working->Feudalism.
not exactly correct.. you could earn 100 beakers a turn and not backfill iron working if you pay attention.. you only backfill a tech the turn you complete another tech.. so if you tech towards monarchy say at 70 beakers a turn, and then swith to 30 or less beakers a turn the turn you complete it, you wont backfill iron working.. just make sure you have 30 or less beakers a turn every time you complete a tech and you will never backfill iron working..
darn you thrasher and your minute faster response time.. may the mario gods curse you with a thousand french randoms in a row..
You guys are the pros, but I like to get my warriors a barracks sooner rather than later. I still don't have the timing of it perfected at all, but I think if I waited to get IW until the penultimate turn of teching Feud, that would seem to suggest a delayal in making upgraded warriors (or perhaps you're making them for a long time, early and later on)---and I've gotten IW too often from huts to really want to delay making elite warriors. I certainly don't need to make elite warriors immediately, as Germany can defend against rushes okay early on with just vet warriors, but I want to avoid too much of delayal. Another nice thing about having my elite warriors sooner is that I can upgrade them to legions instantly if it looks like I'm going to be attacked, or if I myself see an opening for an early legion rush.
That would be awesome. I'd get so good with the French.
You are confusing Iron Working and Bronze Working. Bronze Working is usually my first tech as the Germans. It is what is needed for a barracks. Iron Working is delayed so we can start making elite warriors early and keep doing it for a long time. Nobody is suggesting delaying getting Bronze. If I can, I will get the barracks in ancient and have a city just do warriors up until I have knights.
ok well that makes it a little better. a little irritating that they first have to become legions as leo's doesn't work that way. i surely must have looked dumb when i rushed feudalism and nothing happened.
Not quite. I just didn't articulate myself well enough. I know that BW is different from IW!
In my parenthetical remark above, I alluded to the possibility that you were perhaps making elite warriors for a long time. So that actually kind of answers my question. I wasn't sure if you were using the barracks later than what I was thinking, but I figured you had BW.
I guess my point was just that I'd rather (in my novice way, perhaps) have the warriors finished up earlier than that. But if you're making them for a longer stretch of time than I am, then you prob don't have to worry too much about suddenly getting IW from a hut as you likely have plenty of elite warriors at that time.
Still not sure if I've communicated myself well enough to be coherent, but I have to go!!
Zapple
there's little chance of getting IW from a hut if you don't have your tech set to it. More likely, if a tech is coming that late, it'll be the one you're currently researching. which is ok since it speeds the process. (as long as it isn't Feud before you switch)
I guess I'm not understanding what your point or question is. Generally if I'm going for the warrior upgrade scheme, I'm going to make as many elite warriors for as long as I can. That's the whole game right there. Why would I not start as early as possible and continue on until just before I get Feudalism?
I don't think I've ever gotten Iron Working from a hut. Generally later in the game you get whatever tech you've got selected. I have backfilled it by mistake before, but just against kittens when I wasn't bothering to play very well.
That answers my question perfectly, even granted that you're not sure what I was asking!
I basically didn't know what your method was, and so there was no reason for me to assume anything. Making the warriors for as long as possible makes sense, but I myself haven't been doing it that way. In the past I've wanted to make them all within a certain time frame so I could upgrade them to legions before then teching to Feud. Your way is very likely better, but my logic at the time was that if I could finish them early I could avoid a bad hut situation and also have legions prepared for fighting if suddenly attacked. But I can now see how your method would adapt to these situations (e.g., scouts give you notice of impending attack and thus tech IW for response, etc.).
Part of it is also just my anal-retentive personality. I like things to have definite start and finish times. It's similar to the problem I used to have with overlapping cities. Ha! Oh well...
Oh, I get it. You thought I would research Monarchy, then build a barracks, then build warriors, then get Iron Working, then get Feudalism. Yeah, that would be pretty inefficient. I'm usually about multi-tasking.That answers my question perfectly, even granted that you're not sure what I was asking!
I basically didn't know what your method was, and so there was no reason for me to assume anything. Making the warriors for as long as possible makes sense, but I myself haven't been doing it that way. In the past I've wanted to make them all within a certain time frame so I could upgrade them to legions before then teching to Feud. Your way is very likely better, but my logic at the time was that if I could finish them early I could avoid a bad hut situation and also have legions prepared for fighting if suddenly attacked. But I can now see how your method would adapt to these situations (e.g., scouts give you notice of impending attack and thus tech IW for response, etc.).
Part of it is also just my anal-retentive personality. I like things to have definite start and finish times. It's similar to the problem I used to have with overlapping cities. Ha! Oh well...
As far as getting legions in a hurry, you'll be able to get them faster than most civs if you have a few elite warrior armies lying around. I mean, consider playing like Spain or something. You backfill Iron Working, not expecting attack, then suddenly you need legions. Okay, they are 10 hammers and you have a little money and some production, but no barracks. You can make them immediately, but they aren't so great and you can't get a ton of them fast. With Germany, if you have even like three elite warrior armies, you can get Iron in 1-2 turns at the most and have 3 elite legion armies, which can probably get the job done, though it screws up your upgrade scheme a little. Still, 3 elite knight armies and a couple more vet ones can do a lot of harm. But anyway, I don't think it's really that big a deal. Depending on the threat, warriors might do the trick. 6 attack from a hill.
My advice is lose the start and end times. It's not important to have 10 elite knight armies by 0 AD. It's important to have a sufficient number of armies before your enemy can properly defend. Everything in CivRev is relative. It's far more important to watch your opponent than it is to watch the clock.
what if i research feudalism down to one beaker and then backfill the last beaker by finishing IW?
then they will be legions. what you need to do is research feudalism till you are one turn away from finishing then switch to IW for a turn and back to feudalism.
you can't.
backfilling requires that you have the full beaker count +1 of the tech to be backfilled. It doesn't backfill techs that you have partially teched.
Well, he could backfill Feudalism by doing 141 beakers the turn he gets Iron Working if somebody else has it. Of course, that would be almost as stupid as wasting 139 beakers on Feudalism, then backfilling it (the 139 beakers are lost). Also, he still won't get knights.
Okay, I'm sure I'm totally confusing anyone who doesn't understand how backfilling works. Go read Sigmakan's article in the strategy if I'm confusing you!
But what's important for this strategy is you need to earn Iron Working before Feudalism. You need to earn them on separate turns. There's no way to get them at the same time and have your warriors become knights.
Unless you use a great scientist, I think
Yeah, okay, but that's still not exactly the same time. You could earn Iron Working and then GS Feudalism that same turn. That would work, yeah.
okay i just had a h2h against a (former?) ffa top 10 aztec only player with the germans and won. turned out he is a quite bad player.
he would have probably killed me with a fast horse army because he was very close but he tried to warrior rush and knew that i knew all the time he was coming for me. i actually played quite bad. i thought it might be best to settle the 100g city on many trees and food for warrior pump and immediately start growing. that's not good. i should at least make 1 settler out of that city, i'll still have plenty of time after that. this slowed me down big time.
at least i had more warrior armies then. when i finally GS'ed feudalism in 400AD or so i got 9 knight armies out and bremen was producing 1 knight every two turns. i was 8-17 behind in techs but got tenochtitlan easily anyway, only losing 2 armies even though he knew i was coming for him (no idea how he got in the top 10). he left when i took his simbabwe. it was 18-18 in techs at this point. nice.
the first time i played i had feudalism way earlier (i made more than 30 beaker in every round i must admit). anyway, the last time i got a cap early which speeded up my expansion. this time i didn't. can i get my knight armies consistently at 0AD or even earlier in some way?
Last edited by ShowtekGER; 05-04-2010 at 11:15 PM.
0 is tough, but doable. You need to get your 100 g in a timely manner, a decent map, and to not be overly pressed. Its a fine line with the Germans as some games you will be focusing too much on the knights and fall behind in tech, and others you wont be getting enough knights while you tech. Try practicing them in sp.
I would say for german knights, an above average game would be around 500BC for fedualism, average 0AD, and below average around 300AD-500AD.
If you get a cap, or 7 cities, or something that can help early expansion and getting the barracks, then it's a lot easier.
If you do a 5 city method, it's a little slower sometimes, as you will be doing about 20 beaker per turn. With 7+ cities, you'll be doing around 30 beakers per turn, and it will save you some time.
I tend to build around 6-9 elite warriors, and either make triple elite knights if I need power, or if I need more armies, I'll just make single elite armies and pair then go all out on tech.
Getting the time down just takes practice, and they can be a tough civ to expand with sometimes, though in the medieval, it's a little easier to hammer out settlers than with other civs. But, anytime before 500AD is usually ok, elite knight armies are really tough for people to deal with, and as long as you live to that point and the other guy isn't in the modern or close to it, then you should have a great shot at winning.
okay, then i probably focus too much on getting cities out. i had 9 cities in that game but really hadn't the resources to get them quickly and had to build warriors only in berlin until 2000BC.
the production bonus is awesome. if the germans would have them in ancient, they would easily be another zulu-aztec-pain in the arse. i still think they should be changed for a contingent civ rev 2, maybe marginally. give them advanced flight in modern or warrior + legions or horsemen get out vet, that would be nice.
they're actually quite fun to play. if i can get past hgb, i'll try them in the tournament i guess. just like greece. it's nice practice.
I'd say you really probably need a cap or a ton of money to have it much before 0. The Germans can get caps sometimes, but it's very dependent on luck, unless you horserush, which probably slows down the whole affair unless you get a lot of gold fast. Getting caps with warriors is always chancy because 4.5 loses to 2.5 all the stupid time.
But anyway, 9 elite armies at 400 AD will win most games. Even with a big tech deficit, this will tend to win. Basically the opposition needs some powerful offensive armies (tanks, bombers, maybe something good with cruiser support) to kill them. Just having rifleman armies won't do very much.
that sounds quite good. i think i'm doing fairly well. i haven't encountered someone who tried to rush me between the very beginning and me getting feudalism, though. that's probably the key against germany. getting cats or knights quicker than them and then kill them before they can kill you. but i guess the vet warriors really help defending. i'd like to use them against someone good soon.
i rarely lose 4.5-2.5. i don't think i've ever lost that when i was the zulu. i lost such a match recently with the mongols which made me lose the game. i don't remember another time that happened.
Just want to give a thank you to Morte. This is a very effective strategy. So effective in fact the Chinese guy sends me a "TOTAL BULL**** HOW DID YOU GET KNIGHTS BEFORE ME" message after I win.
I probably overdid it building 12 warrior armies. No one was pressing me so the game was a cakewalk. Got a nice start as the Japanese player was terrible and only a few spaces away giving me an early cap.
You should give him the cheat code for getting knights before him, although if he ever used it, the paradox might cause the end of the universe.
Everyone knows it's just up down up down left right left right B A start.
Two in a row. I should have lost the second game. Made stupid mistakes, such as barely missing 100 gold before spending it to defend against a player who if he had pressed his advantage probably would have won. But then he gave me about 30 turns to get a dozen knight armies.
Are the random ranked matches using intelligent selection? In other words, am I facing all newbs right now because my record is so small, and it will pair me with higher ranking people as I play more games (assuming I win many of them)?
Last edited by FF-GTR; 06-11-2010 at 03:27 AM.
On the 360, you just play whoever happens to be on. There aren't really enough players playing to try to match your skill level every time. Rank != skill level anyway. Apparently if you're on ps3 there is some real attempted matchmaking but it's horribly broken such that if you become highly ranked, you can never find a game to join and must always be the host.
I'm not sure if it's still true, because before my reset I was 6th and was joining game with somebody in the lobby. I'm like in the top50 now and join lobby with people in it. That's in h2h in FFA it's always empty. In h2h it was always empty on other account so....
I don't know and it depends would be my answer.
I suppose whatever the system is assumes that there are like thousands of players and there just isnt enough ps3 players. I can hardly get a game and I'm ranked rock bottom (heh I really don't care about rank) even when looking for a room full of better ranked players that I know exists...
I think in one week or so (maybe two), I'll have the germans instead of the americans in h2h. I think I've played them about 80-100 times, or something like that. I'll think about rewriting the strategy, since I'm having fun as them.
Please do! Im sure there is a lot more good stuff to cover.
Last edited by ScottieX; 06-11-2010 at 04:34 AM.
I thought about writing a German strategy too. I dont start my new job till august, but havent really got around to anyway. If you do write it I think you should cover things like moving settlers, when to legion rush vs. when to knight rush, beaker counts going for Feudalism, how many cities, when to best get a barracks(my personal favorite is to take a three pop cap with three trees and get it ancient. The Germans seem so simple, build elite warriors and turn them into legions then knights, but as we all know actual games dont always run so smoothly.
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