By the time I get my first GPs, that's the minimum for my cities.
By the time I get my first GPs, that's the minimum for my cities.
You should get it in 30-40 turns, and having libraries in every city is difficult, unless you still play with only 2 cities. Maybe a one tile island could really produce so much science, but first cities aren't so good to give you a huge advantage with a great person settledOriginally Posted by Arathas
I'm not saying that you shouldn't evaluate each time whether or not to settle the Scientist, nor do I think it is bad to settle the Scientist for the long-term gains. I do, however, agree with Morte that most of the time, using the Scientist right away will help you control the game faster.
Unlike Morte, I'm also a guy who likes to play a longer game rather than a fast, short game. Even for the longer play style, there is frequently value in using the Scientist to pop a tech.
I do that to avoid bugs, but I started my playstile playing long games with greeks and win almost every game with tanks rush, lost once to Private J0hn (I didn't know chinese get +1 science from literacy..)
However, in my opinion rushing a technology is still many times better, and in the later eras, you can't improve so much your science after you have libraries, universities are too late. So, a +50% culture could not be better than rushing a technology, for example you could need 8 turns for communism. -33% hammers needed for factories and +50% production, with americans it could be a good thing.
All I can say is the next time you get a Great Scientist, stop for a second and really consider how you might use at that moment or maybe in 1 or 2 turns instead of settling it. Unless there's some unbelievably good reason not to do it at that point ( a city with 7+ water tiles with 2 whale or more and a Library, for example), just give it a try and see what happens. Think of how it might change the game, and alter your strategy to maximize your advantage. You might be surprised.
Right now I play only SP Deity, so I don't have to worry about the bugs as much in long games.
Yes, I agree, and that's actually a good example for the longer matches I like to play. By the time I get there, I love to get Communism first, because I like to build a lot of factories for that last push. The difference is that I'm making that push in the 1700s now instead of the 1900s or 2000s, due in large part to rushing the techs.
Ummm....that is exactly what I have been doing and posted my thoughts on the subject. I have mentioned numerous scenarios where rushing a tech would be a useful or superior strategy. However, in a previous post, I did an extensive analysis of the techs that will likely be available around 0 AD, about the time that your first GP arrives. In that situation, I did not find that quickly rushing (less than 10 turns) one of those techs would dramatically alter the game.
What you describe as an unbelievably good reason not to tech rush with him (city with 7 water tiles, 2 whales, and a library) is a fairly common occurence for many players. By about 0 AD, when the first GP arrives, I will generally have 4-7 cities, at least 1 will be on an island or narrow peninsula having: 6-8 water squares, at least 2 special resources (fish,whale,dye), a library, and 5-6 population. While that may not be a common situation for civs such as the Zulu, Arabs, Aztecs, Romans, or Mongols; it is fairly common situation for the Japanese, Chinese, Greeks, Spanish, or Egyptians (substituting dessert for water).
I am still waiting for someone to post a realistic and detailed example of what tech they can quickly rush with that first scientist to provide a game winning advantage. Please include the following: About what game year it is, what have you already researched, what is your current science output, what tech can you currently rush or rush within 10 turns, how are you sure that rushing that particular tech will provide you a military advantage over another civ that settled its scientist?
If people are so convinced that rushing a tech is the best strat and have been arguing the point for 10 pages on this thread, why wont someone post a detailed example using that first scientist. All I hear is rush feudalism and win with knights or rush combustion and win with tanks.
what are you talking about?
You don't start with 5 pop and a library, I was ironic. When you get a gp, many times the best thing to do is to rush a technology that could change the game. Feudalism for example, if you need 10 turns, you rush it, start building knights, for example using arabs, religion and +1 attack in industrial era, and you have an huge attack.
I think the best use is to use the instant effect many times, for the great artist that can change the game really, for example when you have 3 capitals and the enemy 2, or when he attacks you and you flip the city he has just conquered (getting his best unit)
i agree, unless you have a monster science/gold city.
also, use the scientist for a big tech, like combustion, communism, or the one where you get +5 gold each city (this bonus is beast if you have many cities).
Yeah, with chinese or romans I could produce 200 gold only for that. And starting a production of gold, I could build markets, so that becomes 400, and with bank 800, etc.. However, some technologies are still good to rush, as for feudalism fast, when you are using a good civ that can use that bonus (japan, arabs, etc..)
yeah, but if your japan and you have a 1 tile island, for example, i would settle it. i gotten some of those cities to produce 800 science/gold or more. you cant pass up +400 science/gold a turn.
No, you can, and with greeks in my opinion you can do that better. Japanese have problems against rushers, Greeks start with pikemen and corthouse, the best thing to stop zulu and many other rushers. Corthouse means that if they stay next to athens, you won't have problems. With greeks you could have so much science, too. Building a city with only water squares, 20 is a lot. Having only 20 pop that's 80 with library, 160 with university, 320 colossus, 480 with great person. Having others 11 pop, you could have workers producing from 1 to 6 science, with a medium of 3. 3*11= 33, 66 library, 130 university (to write it fast), 260 colossus, 390 great person. That's about 800-900 science per turn.
ill write a strat for the japs. if you do them right, they can be better than greeks.
Well, if using civs as japanese or greeks maybe putting the great person could be better if you need only few turns to rush a technology, but for combustion if possible a rush could be better. Using civs as greeks/japanese, you could reach a huge science so that's the case of the rush use. I would say the greeks because they start with huge bonuses as corthouse and democracy, and they have +1 food in the modern era, and they can reach it really fast
i would have to say japan for 1 reason; +1 food from water and turn numero uno.
the greek version is good, but isnt game changing like the jap food is
Well, it is:
Japanese good science bonuses: +1 food
Greeks: Start with corthouse, democracy. Industrial era 1/2 price libraries. Modern era +1 food. With greeks you can defend against japanese and do that better.
PS: Greeks have also more great people, with the following uses you could do great things, +50% science for them is huge.
yeah ill take the japs. +1 food that early is like the roman megacity
Greece Vs. Japan Deathmatch!
This Sunday-unday-unday At The Coliseum!
My money's on the japanese.
I was still talking about when to use great scientists, not about only greeks and japanese. However, in my opinion great leaders aren't really helpful as great people and should have a better skill, as for example adding 3 exp to every unit instead of giving veteran
Getting a great leader into a city with large hammer production is as good as the 'new units recive loyalty' bonus, maybe even a little better because you can get about +100% for a new units produced in that city with the bonuses. If you are strong enough you can get some armies with 3 bonuses. A fortified rifleman army with loyalty, engineer and leadership is hardly beaten.
I say settle great leader imediately, and buy a unit every turn or every second in that city for a defensive/offensive headstart.
and if you play germany it is a monster to have all your units elite from the beginning
for germany great leader is!! the best great person. closely followed by scientist i think...
the ability to pump your elite warriors to knights fast or archers to pikemen or riflemen is fabulous
Great Leader can be gamebreaking for any civ if you are going for a Domination win. Settle him in a city that has a barracks (or build a barracks in the city he is settled), every new unit will receive a random "elite" capability once produced. Now it's easy to pump out armies of whatever that are stacked with three different elite unit capabilities each...
5 Stars from me...Thank you for the info!
Actually, that would be interesting for the the Great Leader to add 3 victories or something similar to the troops instead of just granting veteran status. However, I disagree that they are not helpful. Cranking out defensive units with Engineering, Leadership and Loyalty or offensive units with Infiltration, Blitz and whatever is just way too handy.
I said that a lot of times, +3 exp would be obviously better and great leader wouldn't be only a stupid great person in the early game (other peoples can be better). They can be helpful but not so much, you need a good production and a barracks also
thats the same thing. if you dont have barracks they come out vet, if you do they come out elite. 3 exp= an upgrade. whats the problem?
No, the instant thing gives you veteran, so if you have elite units or veteran you get nothing, so +3 exp would be better, now do you understand? The great leader would become better in that case
oh, your talking about the instant thing. why would you do that? just settle it in a production city.
I like to build production cities near enemy borders to help with culture flips from wonders and also to produce units to attack. It's even better with a Great Leader and a barracks there.
No, I have used it and it was helpful, and I can't start with a barracks, you know that. So, building fast armies with no upgrades, I would have them veteran, while old units would have upgrades getting +3 exp, and perhaps if I use germans and they are only veteran, with elite they can use the free upgrade.
I think it depends on the situation at hand totally, and how early in the game it is, generally I think early in the game its often better to settle certain great people to help build your city, later in the game it is often better to use his power.....it just depends.
I do agree that great builder is probably the best.
Regarding flipping cities, there again, it depends upon the location of the city and the situation. I usually flip as well, but in some cases it it not worth it and you will quickly lose the city right back to the opponent, now you are out the great person and the city.
I bascially analyize whether I believe I can defend the city or not, if its highly questionable I settle the artist.
But as I said with the great artist you can instant flip a city that your enemy has conquered, killing all his units but one (and you will get this), so that becomes really useful. You used a great artist to gain an army and in this case your enemy has wasted a lot of hammers
what if the rush never comes? then you just wasted many turns where you could have had an extra city.
Well, obviously if you wait too many turns and you are sure he isn't rushing you, you should use that.
thanks for clarifying that. i could see some new players holding the GP the whole game taking your advice.
Well, however, he could come later, you don't know that, the best thing to do is waiting with a unit, so if he kills that unit, you know what he is trying to do (expanding/rushing you)
If it's early in a match, and you have a great artist, it's very nice to first check whitch city you can convert, and then you send troops to stay out side that city on forrests or hills and wait for about 5-6 turns, then the enemy city will almost certain have atleast an archer army there and be fit for conversion. IMO best way to use an great artist, unless as you said, you have lost a dear city to an enemy early. Saving an artist could also make you feel safeer with your defences that way, and spend more resourses on science and gold.
That's an interesting idea for the sake of the free defensive units, and not just at the beginning of the game. Personally, though, I think if you have the units to spare to park outside the city, you can just flip the city right away and move your own units in and build whatever defense you need there. That way you also gain the benefits of the trade, production and culture of that city for those 5-6 turns you would have been waiting outside (as well as depriving your opponent of the same). However, against the AI on Deity mode, it might be worth waiting for 1 turn, because the AI with its bonus may be able to rush a whole army in there in a turn! And since I play exclusively SP Deity at this point, I'm going to give it a try. It's frustrating to flip a city that's not properly defended!
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