im noticing that the french seem to be the less used faction and seems to not be played at all lol? has anyone actually seen the french played well are they just obsolete .. i mean iv seen the spanish do better then french before o.o
im noticing that the french seem to be the less used faction and seems to not be played at all lol? has anyone actually seen the french played well are they just obsolete .. i mean iv seen the spanish do better then french before o.o
i never use the french and have never seen a french user in multi. i dont like thier bonuses very much.
I've never seen the french played online, but then in one game my brother was going up against 2 of them(players, not AI).
France gets some crazy culture early on. With on city they can have, I don't know, a decent chunk of land culturized. This might not seem like it is good for much but this means people have to leave your territory to heal. Most people don't get culture so they can just heal while attacking your town because the culture you get from working tiles can be removed by the enemy walking on that tile. Culture from other bonuses can't be removed.
Preventing your enemy from healing(unless Aztecs) seems like it could be usefull.
french is good for ffa but not so good for h2h imo. check out the ffa scoreboards.
French dont have any good abilities they are probably the worst civ
nonsense, you just dont know how to play well with them.Originally Posted by Phantom11392
I disagree.
They start with a Cathedral, do you have any idea how much of a cultural head start that is??
+2 Cannon Attack is pretty awesome, both offensively and defensively. +1 Rifleman movement is pretty good too, for those who've got a clue how to use it
I think the french played well can be a really strong civ. They aren't as obvious and simple to understand as for instance rome, arabia or aztec, but a good player should be able to put the french to good use. (Problem with this is that most players continue playing with the same civ they play well with first, which is often one of the "easy" civs).
a 36 attack with an army of cannons can easily take out tanks attacking your base and pikemen defending their bases
The thing to remember is that it is plus 2 for each unit. Single units are ussually useless so that means your going to be getting +6 for each cannon army. +6 is not something to be laughed at.
The problem I see with that though is after you get metallurgy you can get combustion. So you have 8 or so turns to produce cannons and then you can produce tanks. I'd much rather have tanks than cannons.
It's also worth pointing out that starting with pottery gives them a head start on the race to be first to research irrigation (+1 pop per city, affects all current and future cities).
wow... i didnt know this affected future cities as well. it is looking like if used right then france can be a cultural juggernaut
It's not +1 pop. for each new city, they are good for their culture, and pottery is good I think only if you build at least 2 other cities before the irrigation
Irrigation only gives you +1 pop in whatever cities you currently have, it does not affect future cities. The best advantage French will get from this bonus is stopping another civ from getting it. French just dont have the ability of some other civs to get 3-4 more cities before researching this tech, and it is really not that great of a boost with only 1 or 2 cities.
Alright, I played a game as the French to try them out. Before I got to notice anything from the cathedral a spy from Greece destroyed it. That is a huge flaw in frances starting ability. Not only france, but anyone who starts with a building. After that cathedral gets wiped out you might as well just be playing as a non-era-bonus faction because pottery isin't that good. Everyone else starts with things that are medieval era: Code of Laws and Monarchy are huge. Pottery is ... not.
Also a point on irrigation. It was said in another post that irrigation made squares near rivers produce 1 additonal food. I can confirm this. I was getting 4 food from a plains square with a granary instead of 3. I don't know if it was working on the square with trees and deer though because I don't know how much deer normally provide. It definally was not working on a desert square that had spices and was near a river.
After playing as france I was in the mood to try a culture attack with a civilization that couldn't have their starting bonus destoried; england. England has some friggin' awesome advantages. Longbowmen with +1 defense means your starting the game with pikemen. As long as you don't get democracy you have 5 production cheaper pikemen units. This is one of greeces bonuses and englands stolen it. England also starts with monarchy for extra culture from their capital. I started out getting 4 culture where as france's cathedral was getting 6. Monarchy is good for a reason other than culture however. First off you can use dye, an awesome resource. Second off you can get feudalism without needing any other techs. If you are lucky and get a great scientist then POW, you have knights while everyone else still has archers on defense. You'd be unstoppable, not to mention you can basically skip right over catapults.
I don't think I need to explain how +1 production from hills is great and double naval support is amazing(knight army with 61 attack, try and stop that.) So what I'm saying is that I think England is better than France because it also starts with culture but it can't be destoryed. I'm not sure but I think when you take other civilizations capitals you get their palaces which benefit from monarchy. I'll try to remember to check that my next game.
I went a lot into England there but not much into France, but when I set out to test France this is where I was lead.
1. +2 cannon attack is pretty useless. Cannons can only move one tile at a time and you need defense to guard them. By the time you get a army of cannons and some units to defend them you will have tanks.I disagree.
They start with a Cathedral, do you have any idea how much of a cultural head start that is??
+2 Cannon Attack is pretty awesome, both offensively and defensively. +1 Rifleman movement is pretty good too, for those who've got a clue how to use it
I think the french played well can be a really strong civ. They aren't as obvious and simple to understand as for instance rome, arabia or aztec, but a good player should be able to put the french to good use. (Problem with this is that most players continue playing with the same civ they play well with first, which is often one of the "easy" civs).
2.The only way I could see how +1 rifleman movement is useful is if you need some to guard some knights or something that can move more then 1 square.
3. All civs played well can be good but if you get 2 good players together 1 with rome and 1 french rome will dominate because there abilityies are 10x better
I like France because they start with pottery so you're only one tech away from masonry and a free wall. IMO, the free wall is one of the best first research bonuses... Saves you 100 hammers down the road.
If that's the case, I can't imagine you've even tried getting cannons early. You've also not understood how you may use cannons. Their not only useful for invading other nations.
Then you might give the bonus an extra thought
Well, as you're simply making a statement without backing it up, I can't say anything other than that we disagree there.
Ssshh... No one's talking about england here... I agree that monarchy is awesome, but I still find that the french cathedral is better for culture (if it isn't taken by spies, as your were...)
But for domination, England are incredible. Still, we don't talk about that, since no one seems to have noticed it...
I know canons arent only for offense but it doesnt matter because in a few turns you will have tanks wich are much better then cannons.If that's the case, I can't imagine you've even tried getting cannons early. You've also not understood how you may use cannons. Their not only useful for invading other nations.
Then you might give the bonus an extra thought
Well, as you're simply making a statement without backing it up, I can't say anything other than that we disagree there.
Once again the +1 rifleman movemant is pretty useless. Your not backing up anything you say. France just isnt a top tier civ. There abilities suck. Sure if your realy goood you could probaly beat some other good people with france. But if your playing an elite player who is useing a better civ like the aztecs he will win. Because he has all the better era bonuses.
You just don't get it. First of all, if you plan a little, you can get cannons WAY before you get tanks. Also, a french cannon army is favorite when attacking a tank army.
And if you don't get how the rifleman movement can be used, I won't bother to explain it. Thats your loss. You just think the french are useless, I don't care.
And btw, I've yet to play a game where the aztecs have won...
Last edited by eireksten; 07-21-2008 at 06:47 AM.
i also think france are the worst civ, they have bonus's that i just never find useful in a game, or are only useful for a very very short period of time.
the cathedral is nice, but can be destroyed or nullified/bettered by someone finding the angor wat relic (i think thats the one, that gives temples/cathedrals in all your cities). i can't think of a situation where i would get a big boost from extra rifleman movement, especially as the second bonus suggests i should use cannons which have only 1 movement (i.e. i would be tempted to use cannons and rifleman as a supporting army, meaning i would be moving everything together at the 1 movement of the cannons anyway).
pottery is a bit meh, its not one of the better techs imo, usually the last of the tier 1 techs i get. also i rarely build walls unless im rushing one to save from being culture flipped (so doesnt apply to the capital anyway).
i tried france a fair bit as i never see anyone playing them and i always love to be the guy that plays the civ that no one else likes, but france simply dont have anything that turns out to be useful compared to the bonus's of other civs, the only thing is the cathedral, which sadly can be taken away.
One Player who has a million and one strategy ideas in his head as the French against someone who has no idea of what strategy means playing as Aztecs.
As hard as some of you may find to believe it, but the player that has the strategies and is the French will win.
I.e. it's all down to the player. Any 'sub-par' civ (not that the French are sub-par) can win if you have the strategies to back it all up.
Can you please tell me how the +1 rifleman movement is helpfull becuase I see no way that it can realy be helpfull. Also stop acting like your the greatest **** to ever hit this game. Just because you beat some scrubs with the french doenst mean they are good. Also the only way you could get cannons way before tanks is if you tried not to get tanks and thats just stupid. Once you get metalurgy you only need to reasearch one or two more techs to get tanks.
Last edited by Phantom11392; 07-21-2008 at 07:37 AM.
didn't you just effectively say 'a better player, playing france, will beat a worse player, playing aztec'.One Player who has a million and one strategy ideas in his head as the French against someone who has no idea of what strategy means playing as Aztecs.
As hard as some of you may find to believe it, but the player that has the strategies and is the French will win.
I.e. it's all down to the player. Any 'sub-par' civ (not that the French are sub-par) can win if you have the strategies to back it all up.
that doesn't really mean anything about the quality of france as a civ. if you are talking about balance (which this thread seems to be about), then you must assume that two opponents are of equal ability, you cant say 'this guy is better than the other guy, and so he will win with the weaker civ, therefore suggesting that the 'weaker civ' isnt weak', its not logical.
Yea of coarse a good player with france will beat a bad player but like I said earler if you get 2 people with equal skill one the french and the other as the aztecs or some other civ that actualy has useful abilities. The person with the better civ will win because the frenchs abilities arent very good.
I can't really see when I told anyone that I've won a lot with the french. I don't think I've ever said that I've been winning a lot at all (as I'm on PS3, it is not possible to play anyway atm). Besides, I don't see why you get so cranked up just because we disagree on how good the french are? And I do AT LEAST not see any point in insulting me.
It might be that the french are the worst civ there is, but I don't see how that is given just by a quick look at their bonuses. I never like it when it seems to me that people are jumping to conclusions. If they are the worst, that would simply be because the others are plain awesome.
Fast-moving riflemen are there to defend anything, anywhere. This includes spies, great people, cities, guerilla units, offensive units (i.e. knights or cannons), you name it. Unless you use any of these things, it will of course be quite useless.
As for the cannons:
Prerequisites for Metallurgy are University and Iron Working. Prerequisites for Combustion, on the other hand are Metallurgy, gunpowder and steam power. Beelining for Metallurgy should get it to you AGES before combustion. It could be yours even before reaching industrial ages.
At this moment, you have by far the strongest attacking units, so you need to be quick and put them to use (when eventually someone is attacking you with tanks, do preemptive strikes with your cannons, they have the advantage).
Everyone seems to be saying that half-priced roads are great. I haven't given them much thought, but it could just as well be true.
And Leo: You can't base a strategy on finding the Ark of the Covenant.
Ok just to let you know I said thats what the rifleman could be used for earlier. Also I see you have this on the PS3. You got a mic I want to play you.
Sorry, no mic.
My psn is eireksten. Just invite me if you see me on.
And I don't think you mentioned i.e. the spies. They DO need protection, and they are important for getting the last great people fast (same thing goes for egypt).
Also, like I said, I'm not that good of a player (I'm at work most of the day, so I have more time thinking about these things than practicing). So if you're looking for a challenge you should probably find someone else. But anyway, I'll play when I've got the time.
edit: guess I'm gonna have to be playing France after all this
Last edited by eireksten; 07-21-2008 at 08:18 AM. Reason: added comment
I guess I wont add you then im looking for good players with mics to practice my strategies. Also im pretty sure I said you could use the to protect anything that moves more then 1 tile.Sorry, no mic.
My psn is eireksten. Just invite me if you see me on.
And I don't think you mentioned i.e. the spies. They DO need protection, and they are important for getting the last great people fast (same thing goes for egypt).
Also, like I said, I'm not that good of a player (I'm at work most of the day, so I have more time thinking about these things than practicing). So if you're looking for a challenge you should probably find someone else. But anyway, I'll play when I've got the time.
edit: guess I'm gonna have to be playing France after all this
i wasnt, it was just to show that the best bonus france get, is available to everyone free of cost, should they find it. this is not true of the bonus's most civs get.
a lot of this is down to playing style, for example i often save a great scientist so that i can instantly research combustion when it comes around, i never ever make cannons, its the same with all the really big techs, i like to get my culture up so that i can save great people to instantly purchase things that will change the flow of the game. when i play online it seems to me that a lot of people play this way now (wasnt the case when the game was first out, most people settled all their great people).
having said that, i never face cannons either, no one seems to use them, most people seem to already have an idea of which techs are good, which arent, what to skip, what to save for etc.
i also feel that most of the more popular civs, like rome, china etc would bypass the bonus's that france have, if i were to play against myself, france vs china, the france version of my would lose badly as i wouldnt be able to keep up on tech. it would lead to a situation where by the time i am able to build these riflemen and cannons, china is already making tanks and on their way to the next tier of military (artillery or air), i would never get a chance to use my strength because the strength's of other civs allow them to completely 'skip' that phase.
its a strange military bonus anyway imo (historically). it would make more sense if france had a knights bonus (as they always had good heavy cav), if england had a rifleman bonus (although they already have an archer bonus, so i guess not) and if japan had a legions bonus (instead of cav). cannons would go to china i guess (didnt they invent gunpowder?).
France is terrible for head to head, there is no questioning that. But head to head rewards ancient era aggression a lot more than a FFA game.
Usually, if played right, most players quit once you start attacking their pikemen defended cities with armies of french cannons. Cannons also take 30 hammers vs tanks 50 hammers. While you can surely get tanks not too long after,combustion is 1380 beakers vs metallurgy at 620 beakers. The prereqs for combustion easily make the beaker cost close to 3000 while the prereqs for metallurgy make it about a third of that. Basically the idea is to get cannons and then stop your closest tech competition from coming close to combustion.
I haven't had anyone go after my cathedral with a goody hut spy, usually they go after a tech city's library, steal a great person, or steal some gold.... But i will have to keep my eye out for that. Kinda sucks that you can get spies so early for the civs that can lose their starting bonus to it. Then again I love stealing america's first great person
The only preference I have of France to England is that France doesn't lose as much culture from switching to Republic. I'm really surprised that there aren't more english players in ranked games. The dye bonus, culture, archers, and double naval support are amazing.
I also like France because no one expects much from France. Lots of "What, how is France is beating me?," This might not seem like much, but it can make a difference.
Also mods, this is more of a multiplayer discussion, hint hint wink wink.
OK, I see you said that now. I overlooked the last part of that sentence. Still, you shouldn't underestimate the power of protecting spies and great people
I didn't mean that I'm a BAD player, so you probably could have practiced some strategies on me. I don't have a mic, though, so if that was the most important part then I guess you should be facing someone else...
And for a last comment, about playing styles. When someone have found a style that suits one civ, it seems to me they keep going with the same thing using the other civs as well (including order of research, what units to produce, and so on). I think many probably could do a lot better trying to adapt to the civ they're using. Some civs are simply easier to understand than others, so I think these govern much of the playing styles out there.
I think that the French could be a pretty good civ, their main problem is that they diff
Well, anyway, I'm done discussing the french. At least until I write some strategy articles (I'm thinking on doing that for a bunch of civs, trying to get a good creative discussion on how they can be used).
And Leo: All the "learn technology" bonuses are equalled by atlantis. And since you need temples to get cathedrals from the ark, you won't get them totally for free even then. In addition that won't be from turn 1.
Not to mention the short road to feudalism...
yes but the temples are added to all your cities you see, whereas the cathedral is just in your capital, so early on i may have 4 or 5 cities, if i then get a temple in each one, thats a pretty big boost that will put me ahead of france and their one cathedral.
your right, atlantis can do that, but you need navigation (or be spain) to get atlantis, and then you have to actually find it, which sometimes takes a while, either way what im saying is that this occurs at a much later point in the game. the ark has always been accessible with a galley for me.
the most popular civs have bonus's that last for a longer time (long enough for them to make good use of them and get ahead) or they cannot be matched with a tech. china's best bonus for example is +1 pop for cities, there is no tech that quite equals this and it lasts the entire game for china. aztecs have auto heal and science from temples, again no way to match that with techs (atlantis), rome has republic and half cost wonders (cant match the wonders, can match republic, but only after rome has made most use of it). and so on.
it doesnt have anything to do with knowing 'how' to play a civ, some are simply better than others (more adaptable), for example i play random a lot of the time and i am comfortable playing all the civs, even france. however if i was to play a H2H or even an FFA game against good players, france is the last civ i would pick. anything i can do with france i can do better with many other civs (while playing in the style that suits france). incidentally that saving of great people and so on that i mentioned, is exactly the kind of strat that would suit france (culture heavy).
+1 rifleman movement is perfect for protecting spies. great people are outragously powerful and u usually get alot of them for free.
Interesting Civ French are. I have not played them yet, but I plan to play as them tonight.
One observation right off the bat is that the cathedral will be useless if the city size is small. Since the benefit of the cathedral magnifies as the city grows in size, I see that it is imperative to let the capital grow in size as much as possible.
Perhaps one strategy could be to wait until 100 gold threshold to get a free settler, all the while not producing settlers out of Paris until there is stable growth and option to switch to Republic.
The pottery bonus at the beginning explains this logic, since the French can build granaries immediately, provided that the cities, especially the capital, has good number of plains tiles. 3 food per tile in the early going is a big boost in growing the city, so I can see some synergy going on here.
Half-price roads are awesome. Roads get very expensive until you start having a city or two with good gold production. This means faster movement of units, not to mention easier defense of your empire.
As for cannons, it is possible to beeline for metallurgy. One tactic is to build up your force of catapults, and then grab the Leonardo's Workshop right after getting metallurgy to get cannon upgrades. Gunpowder will be even nicer in the mix, but may not be necessary.
One thing I have noticed in Deity difficulty is that you just can't turtle and become a hermit. Leaving the AIs alone peacefully is not an option, and it is much better served if you are constantly at the AI's doorstep. With the French and the right tactics, perhaps early culture attack could be in order, provided the neighboring civs are not the ones that are strong culturally.
With free pottery for granaries for quicker growth, cheaper roads for fast movement, added with perhaps more temples in other cities and careful expansion and placement of cities, French can be really interesting to play.
I am not too thrilled with the riflemen movement bonus myself, since I think it comes at a wrong age. Egypt receives this bonus in the Industrial Era when riflemen are the prime defenders of the time. Receiving this bonus in the Modern Era seems a little too late, though it can still be useful. However, I really gotta say that cannon attack bonus is definitely awesome. After all, it really fits with Napoleon's background too.
Extras:Leaderboard:FreeForAll: 10th spot is a french user mmm O.o
also note this is for the 360 not PS3
...or ds xD
One thing I have noticed in Deity difficulty is that you just can't turtle and become a hermit. Leaving the AIs alone peacefully is not an option, and it is much better served if you are constantly at the AI's doorstep. With the French and the right tactics, perhaps early culture attack could be in order, provided the neighboring civs are not the ones that are strong culturally.
I just turtle with 2 or 3 cities that produce a good amount of science. the a.i. is always threatening me, but i am usually so ahead in tech that 1 rifleman beats an army of catapults. when i get tanks i take the fight to the civs closest to me then decide which victory to go for.
If you turtle correctly you can just pay off the civs with your techs and have no fear of them catching up. It isn't hard to surpass them by a long way if you play the start of the game correctly, and the only time they will outright declare war on you is if you are building the world bank / united nations / space ship, in which case you can just build a couple modern infantry which will crush their pitiful armies of cannons (assuming they even have those). Not having to constantly fight them off is a plus as they tend to send lots of armies at you that take up lots of your tiles and stop your people from working them.
As a side note they will also declare war if you are weaker than them and have no techs, great people, or enough gold to pay them off. If this happens though you certainly didn't play correctly at the start and you aren't ahead by as much as you should be.
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