Is there a specific example, Codex? Because I never got that vibe. She often looks surprised, which fits her back story of being locked away most of her life. But I don't recall her consistently looking helpless, or fainting, or cringing or anything.
Well, jape, lets look at these as examples. The last one, IMHO, is the only one where she doesn't look afraid. Even then, it's obvious that Booker is holding her hand and dragging her around with his hand that's off box.Originally Posted by mr.bubbles215
The first image, the one from the PAX 2011 posters is her being scared by something that he's doing. She's shocked, she's crying out. She looks afraid and he looks resigned. Once again, his placement in the foreground is an example of him protecting her. She's either reaching out to council him ( a positive!) or for support (less positive imho - although it does make sense in the fact that she's been locked away in a tower).
The second image, Booker is once again putting himself in between the danger and Elizabeth (code of chivalry? that's a bit old, isn't it?). Elizabeth once again looks shocked, afraid and threatened. Booker has to protect her, and as the PC Booker is, by extension, the player. YOu have to protect her, you have to make sure she's safe. She can't stand on her own two feet (either because she's too naive from being locked in the tower or too weak to do so herself).
Now, the demo we saw a year or so ago did play on some of the protective themes with Booker. The whole scene in the gift shop shows that she is indeed naive and very child like in how she approaches the world, but later in hte gun battle she is very capable to be left alone while Booker goes off and deals with the enemies. Once again, however, she is unable to do anything without his say so or assistance. Whether this is a limitation of the earlier build or not remains to be seen (I believe Levine made a comment about the fact they were having difficulty with her coding at that point in time), but there is, in my mind, a constant reminder that Elizabeth is female and you must protect her, if only to get her out of the city. After all, she couldn't be expected to do it herself, could she?
Now, I understand and agree that I am being very hardline on this - I'm picking out things that on an initial glance wouldn't bother most people. You, jape, of all people know I have a habit of over thinking things (weren't you around for the BS2 debate about retractable lighthouses and decoy theories?). However, in looking at this as a context of the time is set in and modern perspectives on people in video games, I'm kind of surprised that the presentation of Elizabeth has been, in a sense, very true to the time the game is set in. Elizabeth, as the woman, is subordinate and weak. She can't make decisions by herself and is required to wait for Booker to do the heavy lifting. Booker is constantly putting himself between her and the danger, which, given that she has the greater power and ability to deal with vigors is amusing. Maybe they are going for a true to the time approach (much like the poster that depicts anyone who isn't white or american as being a lesser species from that other demo), which I commend them on. However, something tells me that if it is that subtle it's something I'm constructing for myself.
Well said, I don't get the negative reaction or even the calling of the cover generic. It is a typical cover of a game, in that it portrays the protagonist. I took a quick glance of the game's I have handy - AC3, Dishonored, Red Dead Redemption, Alice Madness Returns, Mirror's Edge, Castlevania Lords of Shadow, Darksiders, L.A Noire, and the list could go on. Pretty much any game which features a strong protagonist with personality is represented on the cover of the game. For those who want to shove in Elizabeth and Songbird, can only fit so much on cover before it looks like a hot mess. Having to have Booker on it was pretty much a guarantee as other game's have shown, representing the player character has been the path usually taken. It's pretty cool that they have gone the extra mile with the back cover, fan's should appreciate that.
The Bioshock Infinite logo, with a zeppelin/burning flag in the background, and Booker's clothes make it look anything but generic. Personally, I'd love to have the clean simple image that Hugomaster5 posted or something similar to that of Bioshock 1's limited edition it could be the continuations of iconic box art. I'm not going to make false claims that cover would be more appealing for those walking by games in the store having no idea about the game. That's a bit much for people to be making that claim, research and people with jobs in marketing know what's going to grab the uninformed consumer. That being said having the limited editions ship with a special cover like the original Bioshock would be pretty cool. Nothing like that has been mentioned and if it doesn't happen, not a big deal.
Just want to touch on some of your points, Irrational has said from day one that Elizabeth is the so called princess in the castle only that you find the princess in the first castle instead of the last one. That she would accompany you throughout the adventure, with her ability helping you while she can. I'm just not sure how strong you can make Elizabeth before it stops making sense that she needs any rescuing at all, that's forgetting that she is even supposed to be naive and inexperienced young woman. As far as she can't make decisions by herself and if required to wait for Booker to do the heavy lifting, well she is a non player character. The brilliance of Bioshock was getting the player to do what needed to be done while not realizing until very late the why. I don't want to play a game where a NPC is doing more than me the player or very deliberately leading the player around. It's also been shown that Elizabeth using her abilities has an adverse effect on her. I (as well as millions others) also don't want to play a game which is one big escort quest where the person getting escorted can die, which is reason number one Elizabeth is shown capable of being alone from Booker. This all being said if they want to make Elizabeth sympathetic character, it's a lot easier feeling sympathetic towards someone who is weaker and in distress than a robust strong character. At the end of the day I see some of your points being the difference between an NPC and the player character.
Edit In - If Irrational was going for a true to the time approach well would Daisy Fitzroy, leader of the Vox Populi be a strong woman? All this talk on Elizabeth, is just speculation we really don't have any idea of how she might progress as a character by the end of Infinite, she may be a 1912 version of Carrie.
Last edited by IGlegacy_Felonious; 12-03-2012 at 03:54 PM.
I would have liked something with both Booker and Liz sharing the front, and Songbird on the back. It's been said before that marketing needs to unfortunately create something with the broadest appeal (lowest common denominator, for the cynical) to get the game off the shelves, and the cover we have now is one we've all seen before. I was just a little bummed that a potential GOTY like Infinite would have a pretty standard cover.
Without getting into any major gender role discussion (which is a good discussion, just for another thread), Elizabeth is such a big part of the entire game, in terms of both story and gameplay, that I think she deserves more than just the back cover.
Now on the other hand, having Liz on the cover could be misleading to some people, who might go in expecting a co-op or multiple character experience, so the cover does it's job in the regard that there isn't any confusion as to who is the PC and who is the NPC.
That thought crossed my mind about not wanting to give any chance for the game to be mistaken as Co-op game.
Found this via google.
A photomanipulation from Deviant-Art, yeah: http://s3ntrydesigns.deviantart.com/...sign-269951773Found this via google.
But I think that it is obvious, why this would never make it as a cover. It would cause a major debate on the question, if Bioshock Infinite is racialistic or not. Since some people seem to be allergic to the words like, "It's our holy duty to guard against the foreign hordes". Of course this represents only the point of view a fraction in this game has, but if you do not know what the game is about, it could be pretty misleading. I do not say that Infinite is racialistic, don't get me wrong. But if you will pull things out of context it could seem like that...and I think nobody wants this to happen.
Last edited by fullmoonstar; 12-04-2012 at 08:38 AM.
Ah, I see. You are layering a serious amount of supposition on those images. True, you can interpret them that way if you come into it with that assumption, but I see them totally differently. The first image shows Booker reacting to something with violence, and she is shocked at him, not at the danger. This shows that either she isn't accustomed to violence or thinks there is another way to accomplish things, which might speak to her intelligence or her naivete. The second image isn't Booker shielding her. She is front and center looking at something. They are reacting to separate threats. And she doesn't look frightened in the least, barely surprised, even. As for the last image, where he is "obviously holding her hand and dragging her around", well, that isn't so obvious. I can't see his hand. And she isn't stumbling forward. I see another image where Booker is relying on violence once again, and Elizabeth is less sure that that is necessary.
If anything these images collectively hint to me that the game will force Booker to learn a bit from Elizabeth about how to interact with the world. That reaching for a gun may not always be the best course of action.
Also the media would have a hell of a field day with that cover. Things would go south fast for the Irrational team.
I think my biggest gripe about the cover is Booker's blasé posing. I know action poses are overdone but it could've helped a little to indicate what the game was going to be about. Maybe have him pointing a gun with a glass sight and having Songbird in the reflection. Just something other than the "did I leave the oven on?" expression he's wearing now.
As I've mentioned before, while I have mixed feeling about the box art that was revealed last weekend, the box art should be in the style of the poster of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Something like this:
http://www.movieposter.com/poster/MP..._Lost_Ark.html
The art concept from the PAX poster was much better than the current cover now.
^ Even this was better, imo. Oh well.
I don't know... the fact that the cover looks like a generic shooter also has something charming.....
I mean, spec ops: the line's cover could not have been more wannabe CoD but the game itself was actually far from it and ,IMO, a masterpiece.... And the cover actually helped to evoke that sense of awesomness.... or not-awesomness...
Everybody should just play spec-ops.... it's brilliant...
The difference is that Spec Ops wanted their audience to believe it was another generic shooter. BioShock doesn't. And it shouldn't. It has a interesting concept and should use the box art to show that off.
I mean really now, we have a game set in a city in the sky, with supernatural powers, a girl who can open rifts into other dimensions and a giant machine-bird-thing, yet the best we can put on the cover is the protagonist(who you won't be seeing for most of the game anyway) in a generic pose with a few flames in the background?
I agree with you Kirk, they could have at least made a background with Columbia's flying buildings while slightly reducing the space Booker occupies? Not a big deal nonetheless, since most of us here will buy it likewise and will make their own cover illustration.
Do any of us know people who buy games based solely on seeing the cover in a store?
So this must not be aimed at us.
EDIT: Looking at his latest version of Booker, and taking into account that Elizabeth is now based on a real person, I think they blended Troy Baker into the character model. Booker is a little rougher around the edges, but the nose matches, and the eyes and mouth are quite similar. Anyone else see it, too?
Last edited by japester; 12-07-2012 at 08:28 AM.
No. But it surely helps in making me pick up the box and seeing what it is about. And a cover that shows a city in the sky or a flying mechanical giant bird most certainly increases the chances of me checking out to see what it is more than a cover featuring a generic looking person in a generic pose on a generic background.Do any of us know people who buy games based solely on seeing the cover in a store?
So this must not be aimed at us.
Ken was questioned about the Box Art and you can read his opinion on it here - http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/1...-+Game|Life%29
Totally understandable and fan's need to just accept it for what it is. If it helps sell more copies to the uninformed person who is walking by it in the store all that does is just increase the chances you will see more games like it or more game's made by the people who make the games you really enjoy.
Hey, Irrational, why don't make a reversible cover? I mean, I'm sure you thought about it, why don't do it? Specially with the PS3 version, with all the Move feature and stuff. Thanks!
Great find as always, felonious! Nice to see a developer that just says it like it is. The reasoning for the cover is exactly what I suspected. It's not for us. It's hard for many gamers (and game devs!) to step outside of our bubble and see things from the perspective of the other guy, the one who doesn't spend time on forums and reading game mags. And Irrational hasn't forgotten about us since they'll be creating those downloadable covers. Can't wait to see 'em!
Totally called it. This is for the FPS masses that will see the cover and think "Hey, this guy has a gun and looks like a total badass! I want to play this!" I am more than positive people will make their own covers for the game if they are so inclined that are VASTLY superior. An example would be this:
Go down to Staples, print it on thick paper for a few bucks and boom, custom cover.
holy moely I hate it. stick to the original title on top, clear sky in the middle and bottom of the cover art. Clean and simple. All though Bioshock did have that nutty looking big daddy. Levine explains about Bioshock's Cover Art.
Ken Levine Explains BioShock Infinite‘s Bland Box Art I didn't use the word bland. Seriously read this explanation. what the fudge.
Late to the game.
(we have an edit button, Durandal)
that cover reminds me of ico's Japanese cover:
Apparently there is a site that is fan video game covers. more at vgboxart.com.
oh.must be 10 characters
And that is exactly the problem I have with the cover. I don't have a problem for it for me, I personally don't care that much for the cover(after all, I buy most of my games on Steam and it is easy enough to make or download your own cover if I don't like the original one). The problem I have is that I don't think it will sell more copies because it is that damn bland. I think if the cover would actually show of more of the stuff the game actually have to offer you'd get a lot more people picking up the box.
People should read it and it's only natural they made this choice. Besides that, It's good news to know they'll offer alternate downloadable game covers for those of us that are not satisfied with the current version! I'm eager to know what we'll get to choose. Excellent fan service ladies and gentlement of IG.
Well, that's nice of them for people who download. Not sure how that works (I'm old apparently), but nice to know there is an alternative. Yes, ironically the cover my be so common looking that it doesn't get your attention. As far as Ken's comment about Bioshock's cover just being a about a robot and little girl is not true and I'm surprised he thinks that.
Anyway I heard about Bioshock via X-Play (Sessler you rule!) and was like yeah! Then I watched the "controversial" trailer. Yeah!, no glimpse of underwater suit guy. Long story short, I saw the cover on Amazon and went hot dam! that's cool! I'm intrigued who is this underwater suit guy? (my copy had no little sister) And then we don't see that underwater suit guy until 15 minutes in. Build up! Suspense! Yes!
Bishock Inifinite's cover not so much. It's a dude with a gun who you'll never see anyway. Dishonored's cover, I see the need for that. (mask is important) BUT, it sells copies to folks who browse, so not bad. Dead Space's 1st cover had a floaty dismembered hand. OH! Intrigue! Dead Space 2, had the protagonist's suity helmet on. Cool! He got a new awesome suit and they wanted to show it off. Dead Space 3 is typical. It is a 3rd person game so they can get away with it. I could go on and on.
After reading this article I have come to the conclusion that is not a reflection on Ken or IG. It is the gaming industry that makes these covers required in order to sell to uninformed people. Which I think is weird considering that IG is trying to redefine shooters.
So if I sounded like a toolbag in other posts, my bad. I'm just a passionate person about video games.
I hardly care about cover art when it comes to my opinion of the game but, just on artsy-cover-art things, I'm a tad disappointed it isn't more interesting, unique, or representative. It's not misleading, but there's a lot more to BioShock: Infinite than a badass Booker with a gun in his hand. We probably won't see Booker's face much, if ever, anyhow.
I guess I was expecting something more symbolic or suggestive of what's to come (in the story), I was thinking of that nice picture for BioShock.
However, I understood, before and after reading that interview, why they'd do something more typical or familiar. If the game itself is unaffected, and it gets them a few more buyers (maybe, even, fans), I'm totally fine with it.
People naturally resist change. So if you want them to try something new, you have to trick them into thinking it's something familiar. The Booker cover art is reminiscent of a typical macho shooter. If that catches their attention then you can spring the unconventional aspects on them.
Personally, I'll never be able to wrap my mind around fans who are "up in arms" about this, as those articles mention. The time spent looking at the cover, compared to the total time spent playing the game, is somewhere around 0.0001%. Most of us will put it on a shelf and only see the spine anyway. If you want a nice image to look at, Irrational has plenty of posters, art books, etc available.
This image would be an awesome poster. Maybe if they had all the characters in this kind of drawing style, that would be fun. It's about how they represent the game that matters to me, at least. I was not expecting this. I've gone through all the stages and now I'm at acceptance.
actually, now that I'm thinking of it, I'm fine with the way Booker looks on the front cover... its good for me to have a detailed look at Booker, helps me make my makeup effects perfect for my "live action interpretation" of him
But just to put my two cents in, i really like seeing the main protagonist on the front cover of a game. i mean think about it, would you not have spider man on the front cover of a spider man movie or game? of course not!
I'm certain that Ken Levine and the team at Irrational are fully aware on where the line goes between the informed and uninformed ones. There are a great deal of folks who have already decided they're going to get Infinite b/c they're either fans of the series or have been keeping up with its progress. People's interest is already peaked and invested and they don't necessarily need commercials, ads or fancy box art to appeal to them. Nothing wrong with diverting marketing energy to the "uniformed", as Levine put it.
Though despite that, while I understand Levine's 'Salad Dressing analogy', I disagree that this current box art is the only way to "cater the uninformed audience", and personally believe that the cover art could have instead reflected the illustration style from the turn of the century, which would probably have made it stick out from the rest of the crowd and help build upon the distinctive art themes that this series embraces, i.e. the art deco saturated environment from Bioshock 1 and 2.
But I'm sure they know what's best for their team themselves, and at least they will release a set of alternative covers for those who disapprove of the it.
Also make him shirtless.
I love this cover http://solismagazine.com/wp-content/...ns-d4gq04d.jpg
Even the cover they were using before they came out with the official one was pretty awesome...
http://i7.minus.com/ibiU6mrJG25N1k.jpg
Just voted for #4 on the alternate box art poll, and I registered just to say that if it wins (and it will), pleeease change the logo to the same hand-drawn style as the rest of the art. You know it's the right thing to do for purposes of the composition.
Voted for #6. I was hesitating with #4.
Also,
Thanks for this Ken Levine and Irrational Games. I hope we'll get PSD so we can just mess around with the layers and keep for exemple only the game' logo with the artwork. Nice to see you guys having initiative even on details like this because let's be honest, what really matters is the game itself but it's always nice to see developers taking care of what we care.
Voted for 6 as well, and agree with your thoughts. Found this mock up of 6 online:
Also, besides the options in the poll, it'd be nice to let fans sendin their mock ups, and let us vote on those as well.
3 is the right way to do it with the original concept.
4 is so striking to me.. it really got my attention. but it doesn't fit right.
i think that 6 is the most interesting and thought-provoking.
this is a hard vote!
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