Tech jumping

[Remowilliams]

I thought a new thread was in order. There may or may not be a glitch involving access to techs that you don't have all the prerequisites for. I haven't seen anyone who claimed to have encountered this in the full game, so it may be isolated to the demo, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say. I have just encountered this situation myself... playing as the Romans, in the demo, I have access to Literacy, without having researched Writing. In fact, I only researched Alphabet and Bronze Working (Code of Laws comes for free with Romans).

I don't have a step by step walkthrough, because I wasn't keeping one. I will try to duplicate it, and I will note everything that I did to get to this state. Unfortunately, I can't do that tonight.

Here are the other threads where this issue is discussed, just to have them all in one place:

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18578

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18180

And from Civfanatics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=280104

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=278670

It occurs to me... perhaps if another civ that you know has access to a prerequisite, and you have all the other prerequisites, you don't have to research it? I thought there was a wonder that did something like that, though, so it seems like it would be a bug, in that case.

Thanks, 2kElizabeth, for looking into it!

[U-B]

This was already semi-explained in the Q&A thread:

And as for the second, yes, you can sometimes research a new tech without all the prerequisites, but this makes it more expensive to research. If you had all the prerequisites, then it is cheaper.

Some are required, some are not.

And, yes, that does seem like an odd decision to me - but, if that's how it works, then there should at least be some information on, or indication of, which prerequisites are not actually required.

[Sigmakan]

Heres an example:



Note how Irrigation is available even though masonry has not been researched (same with Construction).

Wether its a design decision or a glitch, I'll will try to replicate it.

[2K Elizabeth]

i'll run this by dennis tomorrow and make sure what's going on -- it may be the "not all prerequisite" thing going on. maybe i'll update my tech chart to help out with this. :-P

[Sigmakan]

I have a hypothesis. I'm not quite sure how Eras are defined but I believe its 3 columns of tech, right? You need 5 techs in an era to 'advance' to the next, I think. If you advance to the next era, all techs in the previous era only require 1 pre-req. I need to do more testing. I'll post more pics.

I'm kinda surprised at the picture quality considering its a camera phone.

EDIT: I looked up the era thing in the civpedia and here is an exerpt:
"Each succesive era requires more technologies than the previous". Still not sure if certain techs are in certain eras or if eras are entirely dependent on total techs researched.

EDIT2: Ok I debunked above theory already

Notice how once again I have 5 techs researched and irrigation is free without masonry. However, I cant research literacy even though i have researched one of its pre-reqs. Perhaps its more complex.

[Sigmakan]

Ok I'm really starting to think there is no rhyme or reason to all of this. Its very weird. Look at the picture below, there are about 4 things that are strange, see if you can find them



I need to repeat this and pay better attention, becuase I'm convinced there were times where I actually gained a tech without even researching it. I'll take pics for each turn that I complete research.

EDIT: Ok I tried replicating what I did and couldn't match it perfectly because I got banking at a different time. Anyway, here is the order I researched techs in:
Bronze Working
Iron Working
Currency
Construction
Alphabet
Ceremonial Burial
Democracy
Feudalism (Banking with 250 gold)
Industrialism

When I finished construction, both pottery and horseback riding were given to me.

[Remowilliams]

So, does any of this happen in the real game, or just the demo?

I'm not sure how much I like a randomized tech tree, but I guess 2k has its reasons. Probably to handicap uber-strategies, I suppose, but it seems like a pretty big luck factor.

I experienced several anomalies in my last game, as well. I can't discern a pattern yet. I finally got Industrialization without teching to steam power, but I researched a couple of techs I wouldn't normally, when beelining to an economics win. I put a courthouse in my mega city and got up to 3k per turn from my it.

[PzR Tak]

The literacy without writing thing definitely happens in the full game as well.

[Dire Wombat]

Has anyone with the full game actually opened up the civilopedia tech description for, say, irrigation? Because the civilopedia in the demo says that the tech descriptions give their prerequisites, unlocks, etc. I wonder if it spells out right there which prereqs are optional (i.e., reduce research cost but are not required) and which are mandatory for each tech. If so, then that combined with the minimum era required for some techs (should also be spelled out in the full civilopedia) could explain the whole thing, no mystery involved.

Anyone know if that's the case?

[U-B]

So, does any of this happen in the real game, or just the demo?

I have the full game, and not needing all of the prerequisites happens frequently. If, as bigden suggests, this is intended, then it would be useful if the tech screen actually indicated that - just thinking off the top of my head, a normal line connecting absolutely required pre-techs, and a dotted line connecting "optional" pre-techs, that should make it pretty clear and be a fairly simple change.

Has anyone with the full game actually opened up the civilopedia tech description for, say, irrigation? Because the civilopedia in the demo says that the tech descriptions give their prerequisites, unlocks, etc. I wonder if it spells out right there which prereqs are optional (i.e., reduce research cost but are not required) and which are mandatory for each tech.

The civilopedia just lists the pre-requisites - it doesn't say anything about which are optional. There's nothing about it in the manual either.

[Remowilliams]

I have the full game, and not needing all of the prerequisites happens frequently. If, as bigden suggests, this is intended, then it would be useful if the tech screen actually indicated that - just thinking off the top of my head, a normal line connecting absolutely required pre-techs, and a dotted line connecting "optional" pre-techs, that should make it pretty clear and be a fairly simple change.

The civilopedia just lists the pre-requisites - it doesn't say anything about which are optional. There's nothing about it in the manual either.

Well, from experience in the demo, and from Sigmakan's shots, above, it's clear that it isn't as simple as there being a set of optional versus required prerequisites.

You can follow the same research path, with different results in each game.

[Sigmakan]

I tried vale's tech route as close as I could and I additionaly had to research feudalism. He jumped from banking to industrialization. My only guess is that I got my free banking after democracy and he got his before democracy. But I did verify that Alphabet>Bronze>Pottery>Irrigation works. It has to be randomized to some degree.

[U-B]

If it is randomised, and I realise there may be some precedent for that from past versions, that still seems like an odd design decision to me - how can you strategise which techs to go for, when the connections between them are unclear.

Anyway, even if it is randomised, the game itself must know which are really "required" or not within each randomised session, so it should still be able to indicate that status on screen.

[Remowilliams]

First, sorry about posting in the wrong place, looks like I should have posted to the in-game-discussion group.

I wish MrGameTheory would jump into the thread and share his insights. I bet he has a few, unless it is truly random.

To me, this seems like one of the most crucial questions impacting overall strategy, to date, and it boggles the mind that it's not documented anywhere in the civilopedia, or the manual (disclaimer: I have no first hand knowledge of either).

Does anyone have the strategy guide? Does it have anything to say about this?

[Iceliege]

I'm not sure if this will help at all, but in the demo, sometimes I skip all those government technologies and after a while I can research feudalism.

[Sigmakan]

First, sorry about posting in the wrong place, looks like I should have posted to the in-game-discussion group.

I wish MrGameTheory would jump into the thread and share his insights. I bet he has a few, unless it is truly random.

To me, this seems like one of the most crucial questions impacting overall strategy, to date, and it boggles the mind that it's not documented anywhere in the civilopedia, or the manual (disclaimer: I have no first hand knowledge of either).

Does anyone have the strategy guide? Does it have anything to say about this?

Well you made this topic in the right spot, but its kind've migrated towards an In-Game Discussion/Strategy if these tech jumps turn out to be a design feature. So I'll move this thread to In-Game for the time being.

[Remowilliams]

It seems like, if you have a lot of science going (100s of beakers per turn), prerequisites are a lot less likely to hold you back from researching things that you have at least one prerequisite for.

I think the amount of science plays a huge factor in whether you are allowed to skip pre-reqs.

So, if that's true, at least it gives us an idea of what to shoot for, if not an exact gameplan. A clarification from 2k would be nice...

Maybe it's one of the things they don't want to reveal, and that's why it's not in the manual, and so far they've remained relatively silent on it, other than to say, "yes, sometimes you can skip."

Even if they withhold the information, the civ community will figure it out soon enough, so I guess we may have to wait for that.

[2K Elizabeth]

i have an answer for you, although it's not going to be a "here's a chart for all this."

first, on www.civilizationrevolution.com i have two charts, and one details all the info you need to know about how to get technologies.

second, prerequisites are not an "AND." they are an "OR." so, if you see that you need 2 techs to get to another, you can research EITHER of them to unlock it. also, certain techs will not show up on your list if you are in the wrong era for them (so it's too soon to get them) OR if it takes past a certain number of turns to research it AND you don't have all the prerequisites for it. if this is the case, what you need to do is build more cities or build up your science so that it is "cheaper" to get these techs.

so in short, the prerequisites are an "or" statement, and as long as you are in the proper age, are productive enough, and are willing to spend a lot, you CAN get almost any tech. you will be able to get a tech faster/with less science if you research the prerequisites, but if you want to tech jump to something more advanced before getting the lower-level stuff, you can. it will just take more science to do so.

i hope that makes sense, please ask for clarification where i am confusing!

[Magwill]

i have an answer for you, although it's not going to be a "here's a chart for all this."

first, on www.civilizationrevolution.com i have two charts, and one details all the info you need to know about how to get technologies.

second, prerequisites are not an "AND." they are an "OR." so, if you see that you need 2 techs to get to another, you can research EITHER of them to unlock it. also, certain techs will not show up on your list if you are in the wrong era for them (so it's too soon to get them) OR if it takes past a certain number of turns to research it AND you don't have all the prerequisites for it. if this is the case, what you need to do is build more cities or build up your science so that it is "cheaper" to get these techs.

so in short, the prerequisites are an "or" statement, and as long as you are in the proper age, are productive enough, and are willing to spend a lot, you CAN get almost any tech. you will be able to get a tech faster/with less science if you research the prerequisites, but if you want to tech jump to something more advanced before getting the lower-level stuff, you can. it will just take more science to do so.

i hope that makes sense, please ask for clarification where i am confusing!

Which tech columns belong to what era?

[Sigmakan]

Awesome! Thanks for the insight. Could you quickly go over how we can tell which techs belong to which era and how many techs you need to research to get to the next era?

EDIT: Magwill beat me to it . . .

EDIT2: One more thing, in one of my previous screenshots I showed that Literacy was still locked even though I had one of its prereqs, but Irrigation was unlocked even though I only had 1 prereq. I'm assuming they are in the same era and I know that the tech time wasn't very long. Why was literacy locked and irrigation unlocked?

[2K Elizabeth]

Awesome! Thanks for the insight. Could you quickly go over how we can tell which techs belong to which era and how many techs you need to research to get to the next era?

EDIT: Magwill beat me to it . . .

EDIT2: One more thing, in one of my previous screenshots I showed that Literacy was still locked even though I had one of its prereqs, but Irrigation was unlocked even though I only had 1 prereq. I'm assuming they are in the same era and I know that the tech time wasn't very long. Why was literacy locked and irrigation unlocked?

i'll work on figuring out techs and eras, give me some more time on that. :-)

as for your second edit, irrigation i do believe "costs" less than literacy. so my guess is that literacy, although you had one of the prereqs, would still take too much time/science for you to build, so you needed to either up your science (say you were making 20 beakers a turn, if you kicked it to 40 or 50 that would unlock it) or get another prereq, which would reduce the cost of literacy and thusly make it available for you.

more science you have, more options you will have early. more techs you research, cheaper stuff is.

[Sigmakan]

Ok thanks! I'll play around with this tonight and see if I can get some values

One more thing, whats the mechanism behind free techs? When I bee-line for construction it often gives me Pottery and HBR for free.

[Remowilliams]

i hope that makes sense, please ask for clarification where i am confusing!

It made a great deal of sense. I expect that some enterprising geek out there will shortly produce a spreadsheet. Thanks for the info!

[Sigmakan]

It made a great deal of sense. I expect that some enterprising geek out there will shortly produce a spreadsheet. Thanks for the info!

Hey now, you could've just said my name

[Remowilliams]

Hey now, you could've just said my name

LOL!

FTR, I'm an enterprising geek too, but don't worry, I'm not about to beat you to the punch! Didn't see your post until after mine.

[Sigmakan]

LOL!

FTR, I'm an enterprising geek too, but don't worry, I'm not about to beat you to the punch! Didn't see your post until after mine.

Haha its all good. I think I enjoy this stuff more than actually playing.

[Sigmakan]

Newsflash!

Ok, just did some quick tests. Important points:

*You need to be able to finish a tech in 10 turns or less in order for it to be unlocked when only having 1 prereq. Example:
Alphabet > Literacy. Literacy was available when I was going 9 beakers a turn, but not 8. Its inflated beaker cost is 90. 90/9 = 10 turns. At this point in time I'm assuming that this is a constant rule, but I will test it further.

*Inflated tech costs(required beakers when using only 1 prereq) are not scaled evenly. Examples:
Currency - 80b->90b
Irrigation - 60b->70b
Literacy - 60b->90b

This explains why in my previous screenshot I was able to research Irrigation but not Literacy. Gimme some time and I'll figure out all the inflated tech costs, but there are definately some techs where its worth beelining because of small inflation (Irrigation) and some that its not worth it (Literacy).

Not sure how techs that have 3 prereqs work (Monarchy) but I'll investigate that as well.

Enjoy! Figured I'd give you guys some crumbs to munch on.

[Remowilliams]

Enjoy! Figured I'd give you guys some crumbs to munch on.

Awesome work already! Thanks for the info.

[Sigmakan]

Few more tid-bits:

*For techs with 3 prereqs, you need to research atleast 2 of them. Having only 1 will never(I think) unlock it
*The inflated cost depends on which prereq you have. As such, its going to take awhile to compile all these costs . . .

Back to work . . .

EDIT: Oh god, I'm going insane. Things are working out. I did some more testing and this time I could do 1-prereq Irrigation in 11 turns (so there goes that theory) AND when I had both prereqs it only was 50beakers which conflicts with my notes that say it was 60. Aaaaahhhhh . . . . time to make some brownies

[Remowilliams]

Aaaaahhhhh . . . . time to make some brownies

Hahaha. Brownies, huh? What kinda brownies?

I think you're on the right track. It's probably a fairly complicated math problem, and I doubt anyone is gonna come up with the perfect equation. The best we can do is black box it.

Elizabeth has access to the developers, and now they've let out a little info, a lot more than we had yesterday, but they didn't give us the numbers, or anything. Our ignorance is engineered. You're on the front lines.

I think the best we'll be able to do is to come up with some beelines. I've already started down this track, and I think it's going to be fruitful, but I can't publish any results, yet.

It's a calculus problem, I think, and an approximation will be good enough. Even if your theory isn't always right, it's a lot more information than we had yesterday (no thanks to Mr Tightwad Game Theory, who I suspect already has his spreadsheet!).

[Sigmakan]

Ok, I've gotten 50beakers as the basic cost for Irrigation a few times now. This leads me to believe that my value on my spreadsheet was erroneous (I hope).

I do think that its not OVERLY complex, but its definitely more complex than it appears on the surface.

[Sigmakan]

Behold!



Explanation:
Beaker-1 means the cost without pre-req 1 researched. I've listed the pre-reqs as well. Also note that as a rule of thumb the tech wont be unlocked until you can complete in under 10 turns (for the most part). There seem to be exceptions, but I havent had time to fully delve into it. I'm 95% positive in my values, but if you guys want to double check them feel free to!

Oh the ? are for instances that I think are impossible such as having writing but not alphabet. It might be possible via tech trade, but not sure. Also note that when researching Engineering it backfills Iron Working for you (that explains the ? at the bottom of the list). I also need to explore the backfilling thing more, because its definately happening. Once I get those things worked out and figure out how the eras work (Elizabeth ) then I'll probably type up a guide.

You can do some really scary things if you know how to tech right.

I apologize for breaking the page with photo.

EDIT: I'm only going to post the spreadsheet on 2K forums. My last spreadsheet was being copied without credit (*cough* gamespy *cough*). I'm fine with it being used elsewhere but either use the original photo or give a little bit a credit

[Krikkitone]

writing wo Alphabet is possible for the Chinese

It Would Really help if Elizabeth could give us the actual values and for techs not in the demo
1. cost with/without certain Prereqs
2. how many turns are needed to skip the prerequisites [perhaps it is 10, but the amount of research was changed midstream at one point]
3. what era each tech is in
4. how 'backfilling' works (and if it is a free tech or it just deducts that from your excess research overflow)

Not to mention this stuff should be in the civilopedia

[2K Elizabeth]

sig --

i should just hire you to make this up for me. you'd save me so much time.

[MorteEterna]

Behold!



Explanation:
Beaker-1 means the cost without pre-req 1 researched. I've listed the pre-reqs as well. Also note that as a rule of thumb the tech wont be unlocked until you can complete in under 10 turns (for the most part). There seem to be exceptions, but I havent had time to fully delve into it. I'm 95% positive in my values, but if you guys want to double check them feel free to!

Oh the ? are for instances that I think are impossible such as having writing but not alphabet. It might be possible via tech trade, but not sure. Also note that when researching Engineering it backfills Iron Working for you (that explains the ? at the bottom of the list). I also need to explore the backfilling thing more, because its definately happening. Once I get those things worked out and figure out how the eras work (Elizabeth ) then I'll probably type up a guide.

You can do some really scary things if you know how to tech right.

I apologize for breaking the page with photo.

EDIT: I'm only going to post the spreadsheet on 2K forums. My last spreadsheet was being copied without credit (*cough* gamespy *cough*). I'm fine with it being used elsewhere but either use the original photo or give a little bit a credit

Why democracy and code of laws you have written that don't give nothing? They give:

Democracy: pikeman
Code of Laws: commercial base

[Krikkitone]

Why democracy and code of laws you have written that don't give nothing? They give:

Democracy: pikeman
Code of Laws: commercial base

Because he's doing it from the demo, where the Romans and the Greeks have those techs so you can't discover them first.

[Sigmakan]

sig --

i should just hire you to make this up for me. you'd save me so much time.

Well . . . that could be arranged haha

But really, I do enjoy doing this stuff (when it works).

Why democracy and code of laws you have written that don't give nothing? They give:

Democracy: pikeman
Code of Laws: commercial base

Commerical Base? Could you explain? I'll add those in there, but I'm a little hesitant because people keep telling me to add free horseman and archer for HBR and BW but I've tested it many times (on the demo atleast) and it just doesnt happen.

[Krikkitone]

Well for the Demo, both Code of Laws and Democracy are unavailable as first to discover because of Rome and Greece, so those make sense
(and he's talking about a free Trading Post)

PS the Free unit/building I believe goes in your biggest city that this applies to (since I'd gotten the Free Market/Caravan, and occasionally units in something other than my capital... the Free Trading Post/workshop probably needs Desert/Hills adjacent to the city)

As for BW and HBR, I think there you are probably right (although I've gotten Ceremonial Burial many times 1st in the demo and not gotten a Free Temple, as far as I can tell, so that may be wrong too)

[Sigmakan]

As for BW and HBR, I think there you are probably right (although I've gotten Ceremonial Burial many times 1st in the demo and not gotten a Free Temple, as far as I can tell, so that may be wrong too)

Well I've had the message appear that I got one(free temple), but upon further inspecting my city its not actually there. I'll doublecheck that tonight.

[se7entee7]

never gotten a temple from GW, but recently 1 free Archer has been popping up