This game encourage defense > offense?

[PrivateJohn]

Currently I am top 3 in the 360 leaderboard (PrivateJohn).
My combo has always been Chinese + Technology and so far i haven't lose a single game.

This game seems like it doesn't encourage us to attack other civ early in the game because it's not easy. Even with higher tech like bomber, it's still tough against veteran Modern Infantry or higher defending, + walls, navy support etc.

Not to mention playing for Domination win is even harder with TOO MANY city to manage. Time consuming & not necessary rewarding....

[LiquidJ]

I think it depends on your approach to the game, your starting position, and your civilization choice.

But in general, I feel just the opposite. I think the game encourages players to always be on the offensive. It doesn't necessarily encourage players to take over tons of cities but the mechanics do sort of suggest that you're in a better position if you define your borders and keep the demands on your neighbors rather than sitting back and being subjected to theirs.

You've got to be vigilant about knowing what they are doing and what their next move will be so that you can cut them off or hire someone else to do it before they get ahead of you, or if you are already behind then further ahead of you.

[PrivateJohn]

Maybe but do note that, What i meant defending is not attacking any other Civ but still I will be expanding my base. Usually right about Medieval age or before that i will have at least 3 city setup & have scout out all my surrounding "enemies".

Road will be plan out for proper defense & reinforcement. Most of the time i am pretty vulnerable to Navy attack early in the game but then nobody seems to be focusing on sea invasion early in the game either. Luck ;p

[KrashKrunal]

That means you've not come across the Japanese. The moment I destroyed the Romans, they came in and started making ridiculus demands

[PrivateJohn]

I've not met any human player for Japanese civ.
Play the AI once in highest difficulty, and won with technology race.

The AI always make demand when you are the strongest or leading (any category - Culture, Economy, Technology) even after you have bomber & ground infantry while they still riding horse.

[kenjara]

It depends on which victory you are aiming for but I definatly think its a good rule to opt for defence before offence against ai. Playing online I have literally steamrolled my units over some players so I guess its down to the how well your opponents are dug in and whether they are any threat to you.

[PrivateJohn]

The only time i ever feel threaten is i encounter a player using German, he is like on fire early in the game. Just around Medieval age he conquer 2 civilization (AI).

Of course, he can't break my defense because i am techno freak, got to democracy with pikemen defense. He hesitate outside my base then left for AI.
Still, if he keep sucking up the rest of AI player then i am doom.

So what i did is just sell all my technology to the AI That's the turning point of me because the AI got stronger, it slows him down. While i am on my way to technological superiority + minor culture influence.

PS : just climb up to top 2 now.

[Miz isHere]

The answer is yes the bonus is always given to the defending city. Thats why you have to use tatics to take out a city. Simply attacking without preperation will normally be a waste of time i like this feature it encourages strategy. Although modern infantry are over powered I think they should be droped down a point in defence to take them out you must have A army of battleships next to the city the problem is half the time a city is not near the caostline lol. It stupid the amount of spies plus tanks which are need to take out one army of modern infantry for a inland city.

[PrivateJohn]

The answer is yes the bonus is always given to the defending city. Thats why you have to use tatics to take out a city. Simply attacking without preperation will normally be a waste of time i like this feature it encourages strategy. Although modern infantry are over powered I think they should be droped down a point in defence to take them out you must have A army of battleships next to the city the problem is half the time a city is not near the caostline lol. It stupid the amount of spies plus tanks which are need to take out one army of modern infantry for a inland city.

Yes i totally agree with you, that's why i see the game as pro-defensive.
btw, is naval the only support unit? Anyone know whether artilery tank is support unit as well?

[kenjara]

The answer is yes the bonus is always given to the defending city. Thats why you have to use tatics to take out a city. Simply attacking without preperation will normally be a waste of time i like this feature it encourages strategy. Although modern infantry are over powered I think they should be droped down a point in defence to take them out you must have A army of battleships next to the city the problem is half the time a city is not near the caostline lol. It stupid the amount of spies plus tanks which are need to take out one army of modern infantry for a inland city.

Bomber wing/Artillary means dead modern infantry. Just cover them with defensive troops.

[PrivateJohn]

Bomber wing/Artillary means dead modern infantry. Just cover them with defensive troops.

...because of AI, usually the G.I defending the base are higher level than veteran at least, which not even bomber can take them down. Not to mention the possible wall+naval support...its not easy to maintain the cities while attacking at late game but its easy when you are defending.

I do play offensive in late game, but not to the point of domination victory. Just to weaken my enemy...

[Miz isHere]

Bomber wing/Artillary means dead modern infantry. Just cover them with defensive troops.

lol I do and still they can be extremly hard to kill espically if they have like 3 groups and are aztecs took over 15 armies of artillary plus all the other units which were with them. Without naval support they were cannon fodder the modern infantry need to be adjusted.
The problem is I guess if they lower it then coastal cities become to easy to destroy. Maybe they can give an advantage of +50% defensive to coastal cities to even it up, if they do happen to lower it

p.s
For all i know it could of been just the 1 army of modern infantry as i cant actually recall them ever dieing untill the very end.

[kenjara]

Use spies to take their defensive bonus away.

[KrashKrunal]

Bomber wing/Artillary means dead modern infantry. Just cover them with defensive troops.

For me Bombers work best, A Bomber squadran, took down the Modern Infantries even though they were 8 defence points higher. And they auto-healed at the end of the turn

As for sending in spies, I feel that late game, that is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY useless. Why? Because most of the AI's seem to have TWO+ armies. Sending in a spy only removes fortifications from one of them. So you still have to deal with the second unit unless you send in yet another and then another spy. Even then, by the next turn they'll be fortified again.

[kenjara]

For me Bombers work best, A Bomber squadran, took down the Modern Infantries even though they were 8 defence points higher. And they auto-healed at the end of the turn

As for sending in spies, I feel that late game, that is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY useless. Why? Because most of the AI's seem to have TWO+ armies. Sending in a spy only removes fortifications from one of them. So you still have to deal with the second unit unless you send in yet another and then another spy. Even then, by the next turn they'll be fortified again.

I had about 20 cities that could produce anything in 1 turn so having one churn out spies was no problem.

[KrashKrunal]

Yeah I usually have them concentrate on offensive units to help me, I really have to start building more spies. I just hate the fact that after you use them, they disappear. So there's no 'Veteran Spies', or 'Elite Spies' or spies with teh ability to do TWO things (i.e. break down a fortress AND steal a great leader).

[PrivateJohn]

Which is why i think playing offensive game is not really rewarding in regards to the amount of work you need to do and the ridiculous amount of cities you need to manage after capturing it.

Tehcnology FTW

[KrashKrunal]

What I've seen is that you HAVE TO go for a domination victory from the start unless you want to go for a very specific victory type. Me personally, I want to go for an outcome where I can decide which victory I want, and for that you have to subjugate the opposing civs, or else they will rise up and beat you

[kenjara]

Yeah I usually have them concentrate on offensive units to help me, I really have to start building more spies. I just hate the fact that after you use them, they disappear. So there's no 'Veteran Spies', or 'Elite Spies' or spies with teh ability to do TWO things (i.e. break down a fortress AND steal a great leader).

Well spies in civ4 had a chance of failure but you kept them if they completed their mission. Spies in Rev have a 100% chance of completing their goal unless their are defending spies. So if we kept them it would be a bit unfair hehe. It would be nice if spies had a small chance of making it out of the city alive or something.

[PrivateJohn]

What I've seen is that you HAVE TO go for a domination victory from the start unless you want to go for a very specific victory type. Me personally, I want to go for an outcome where I can decide which victory I want, and for that you have to subjugate the opposing civs, or else they will rise up and beat you

It's hard to do that with so many AI around. It's hard to manage because just as you can attack others, other will attack you too.
You know i've met few times with player going for domination victory, they manage to defeat 1 or 2 civilization then it stop.
Reason? I keep selling my technology to the other AI (as cheap as 5 gold) to keep them strong.

[Judge AUS]

Currently I am top 3 in the 360 leaderboard (PrivateJohn).
My combo has always been Chinese + Technology and so far i haven't lose a single game.

This game seems like it doesn't encourage us to attack other civ early in the game because it's not easy. Even with higher tech like bomber, it's still tough against veteran Modern Infantry or higher defending, + walls, navy support etc.

Not to mention playing for Domination win is even harder with TOO MANY city to manage. Time consuming & not necessary rewarding....

It's good that defence>offence as it encourages the other 3 victory types adding more flavour to the game, if offence>defence then I don't think you would ever see a non domination victory. Not to mention what the computer opponents would do to you on deity.

[LiquidJ]

It's good that defence>offence as it encourages the other 3 victory types adding more flavour to the game, if offence>defence then I don't think you would ever see a non domination victory. Not to mention what the computer opponents would do to you on deity.

Maybe I'm just confused but I consider all of the these offensive attacks:

- Any activity with a Spy
- Fortifying squares with armies to block off areas of the map and/or force an opponent to declare war on you.
- Researching aggressively for rewards or to make wonders obsolete
- Using diplomacy to sell weapon techs to the enemy of your friend (or enemy).
- Using culture to turn neighbors
- Demanding tribute
- etc...

Which is why I'm more inclined to think that defense and offense are much more balanced than they've ever been. IMO, it never paid to use any of these offensive tools in comparison to combat in previous games. Revolution really ups the ante here.

[PrivateJohn]

Yes, all of that are consider offensive. (likewise diplomacy)
Thing is going for domination victory still seems like the least feasible strategy, means taking over opponent with brute force...attacking them.

[2K Elizabeth]

I've not met any human player for Japanese civ.
Play the AI once in highest difficulty, and won with technology race.

The AI always make demand when you are the strongest or leading (any category - Culture, Economy, Technology) even after you have bomber & ground infantry while they still riding horse.

i love playing as the japanese! and the mongols and aztecs but japan is my favorite civ.

now i make no claim to be able to beat someone in the top 5, but it would be fun to play some time, even if you totally own me.

[PrivateJohn]

Sure, add me up for some game if you want.

GT : PrivateJ0hn. (Zero, not alphabet)

[MorteEterna]

I have always played as Private. Using greek i haven't lost only one game (but stupid cheated/frozen games as civ4). In the primary age archers could have about 20 of defence for 30 resources (for an army) and you could need about 60 resources for an army of cats (catapults) and u could not killing them. So using greeks in primary age i have always had an army of pikemen (it's the same) with about 25 of defence (when they are veteran they get 36 of defence on Athens if u got wall, for:

-wall 100%
-fortication 100%
-palace 50%
-veteran 50% )

But i can't tell you more

PS: i'm fourth but i could be second or third, it's only because there are laggers, cheaters or others..

EDIT: you need almost 45 minutes to be on the modern age as Private

[PrivateJohn]

When will they fix the frozen issues? I gotten 2 lost because it just hang there with the gear loading icon.
Got a lost today but it's my fault because i fall asleep, then the Ai just come & whack my base. Was playing against pisser88, met him on the second round and won back my "pride"

[MorteEterna]

When will they fix the frozen issues? I gotten 2 lost because it just hang there with the gear loading icon.
Got a lost today but it's my fault because i fall asleep, then the Ai just come & whack my base. Was playing against pisser88, met him on the second round and won back my "pride"

Games frozen were from civilization 4 i remember (maybe from civilization 1-2-3 but i don't know that) and i don't think it's a problem that could be fixed or maybe it's hard to fix, but it is a stupid think, i remember a game that i loss because i dropped when the game was frozen only for me and i had about 10 army of tanks and 3-4 of bombers and he had only riflemen, so he got a win easy.. Whatever i have never played vs a top 10 but Alex Opie and Terreur88 (that don't want to play with me), i have never seen in a game Miz, you, Judge, or others maybe, i don't remember all of top 10

PS: i don't remember now, you couldn't "build" a fortress (using an army/troops) in a city, yes? If not pikemen in Athens will have 45

EDIT: last game on this morning, using Arabians i took Zimbabwe and i started to build a lot of archers (not armies), he attacked me also using 3 armies of legions but he has never win, using this way (i settled more cities, i had 5) i had 5 armies of tanks when he had only archers, legions, horses.. In about 6 turns i have got all his cities and i won

[PrivateJohn]

Is your NAT open?
Anyway GG, you win me on the first round. I was struggling badly with other AI player as you can see i keep losing my city That slows me down alot because i invest alot in that city.

The second round i was so excited to meet you again, too bad you got disconnected. Otherwise i could have put my "improved" strategy to test.

Still good win on the first round though, if i don't lose i won't know my mistake.


edit : i just lost another one because i move my pikemen out of the city. AI just ran over me....shucks. -_- Man, two of my lost are due to AI....very embarrassing.

[MorteEterna]

5 of my lost are for disconnect, whatever i will fix that if there is a problem, but i hope that game wasn't very important for the rank.. but it could be better if i took the city of atlantis one turn before.. i was waiting to research stupid tech of 2-3 turns, only 1 to take that, but in the first round you was very luck, for example you killed 2 armies of tanks having less defence, but artillery killed you, using also the great general; first loss was a test for ranked games (i used zulu) and second loss only a mistake

But as the first down, i was going to research more technologies than you, you was winning but in some turns i fixed it and i had corporation and industrialisation for about 100 gold per turn, and i took also steel and others techs. Then, i have just declared war to Lincoln to got his cities, so i moved all troops of his cities to you without leave a only defence. I moved all to you (but in greek's cities there were defences) and i took Pechino

[PrivateJohn]

ya because the AI took my 3rd city, my research & everything slow down by alot. I took about 6-10 turn to reclaim my city, sad.

[MorteEterna]

Whatever you could attack if you only take small cities and not the capital; you will block your enemy without try the impossible think to attack the capital. I'm thinking if one has the azteks with pikemen on capital and walls. He couldn't die without killing all troops in one attack, but in this game there are bombers the defence could be stupid when all have all techs or bombers, artillery or tanks but when the defending troops has the great general, wall, veterans, and other bonus as genius (+100% defence )

[PrivateJohn]

I never plan to attack in the first place. I halt alot of my research just to pump out my medieval cannon so i could reclaim my city which i invest alot in it (using gold to rush building) and that city contribute to about 40% of my research.

It was my mistake though i left a crappy defense in that city and let the AI took the opportunity. That's probably when you start catching up with my tech research (when i was leading)

[MorteEterna]

Whatever the best defence is stay on the front, or attacking without attacking (or going to attack without killing nobody) to block only your enemy without losing troops, only blocking his production, food, or science. For example it could be good to product about 8 galions to block the enemy and wait cruisers or more to defend them. So the enemy can't research very good, product more or grow up. It could be better using battleships (12-18) and troops as pikemen, riflemen, or more. Staying in forests or hills it's 50% more, 100% for fortress and fortification means +250% or 300% for veteran troops. A rifleman could have 20. An army of riflemen could have 60. Very difficult to kill it. 1 rifle coasts 20 and 1 army 60. An army of tanks coasts 150
and could not beat the riflemen. An army of artillary coasts 150, too and could beat the riflemen, but not so easy. Modern infantry could have 32 (a only troop) and an army 96. It is a very big problem for the defending player, because, if he build troops, he could stop his economy for example, or research, and it's difficult to product troops when you are blocked there

[Qpla]

In my opinion in the modern era, this game encourages attack... Normal veteran Modern infantry armies don't stand a chance against artillery units... Perhaps you got some tips against artillery attacks?

[MorteEterna]

In my opinion in the modern era, this game encourages attack... Normal veteran Modern infantry armies don't stand a chance against artillery units... Perhaps you got some tips against artillery attacks?

In that case you only need Fighters to defence. You attack and you could win very easy; 90 resources instead of 150 only for defence. And you could destroy also bombers or other troops. Fighters could destroy also tanks for example.

[PrivateJohn]

Whatever the best defence is stay on the front, or attacking without attacking (or going to attack without killing nobody) to block only your enemy without losing troops, only blocking his production, food, or science. For example it could be good to product about 8 galions to block the enemy and wait cruisers or more to defend them. So the enemy can't research very good, product more or grow up. It could be better using battleships (12-18) and troops as pikemen, riflemen, or more. Staying in forests or hills it's 50% more, 100% for fortress and fortification means +250% or 300% for veteran troops. A rifleman could have 20. An army of riflemen could have 60. Very difficult to kill it. 1 rifle coasts 20 and 1 army 60. An army of tanks coasts 150
and could not beat the riflemen. An army of artillary coasts 150, too and could beat the riflemen, but not so easy. Modern infantry could have 32 (a only troop) and an army 96. It is a very big problem for the defending player, because, if he build troops, he could stop his economy for example, or research, and it's difficult to product troops when you are blocked there

That's true but for a player who constantly lead on the technological research, they can pump out unit pretty fast too in late game due to the rewards for researching something first.

I lost one of the important city to the AI for about 6 turns and wasted about 10 turns to play catch up. My early lead on technology all had been wasted, by the time your tank show up on the world map only i finished the research to build G.I, and struggling to produce some.(cruiser & G.I were all rush out using gold)
All of this could have been done for at least 10 turns earlier or more, for the same timeline i could have build some bomber or battleship.

Losing my 2nd most developed city to the AI, that's almost like the real cultural revolution in China that set China back for 30 years from being the super power

[PrivateJohn]

In my opinion in the modern era, this game encourages attack... Normal veteran Modern infantry armies don't stand a chance against artillery units... Perhaps you got some tips against artillery attacks?

Ya that's the last age, like i mentioned before. I do attack but not to the point of really aggresive throughout the whole game. For defender, they have cruiser or sometimes battleship. With a wall...it's pretty hard to penetrate.

I will play technology first then branch out from there (tech; domin; econ; culture), by playing tech means defending.

I have yet to fight a player who is really good at dominating at the very beginning of the game (not rushing tank at the end). I would love to meet one, because that surely will open my eyes & i can improve upon my strategy.

PS : btw, i just play a top 9 players. Man, this is the first i met someone who is good at playing economy victory. Luckily I finished my nuke in time before his world bank contstruction

[QinShiHuang1]

You're number 3 right? It would be interesting to play against you. ie, Same civs, same bonuses, same strategies.

[PrivateJohn]

You're number 3 right? It would be interesting to play against you. ie, Same civs, same bonuses, same strategies.

Sure, add me up PrivateJ0hn. (zero, not alphabet)
I am on right now...