Language Question for Ken

[Tarand]

Ken Levine

I played System Shock 2, loved it. I look forward to BioShock.

A recent article -
http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/.../799226p1.html

and various video clips of the game, are littered with foul language.

Why?

I understand there is going to be a mature rating, I understand that. But what's the point of using foul language?

It is uncreative. People who use it as expressions of whatever they are feeling at the moment forsake far more creative ways to say it. People who use it are limiting themselves to a very small, undesirable portion of all language. People who use it show that they are ignorant enough not to know to use something better.

I don't feel it "makes the game more real" because it uses "every day language".

[lurchibald]

well what the hell do you expect people to say when that society is the way it is? do you expect "oh golly gosh you just shot me you bad bad man i am going to come after you now"

[lurchibald]

P.S. change your avatar someone already has it

[CitrusFreak12]

I'd just like to say that I haven't noticed the foul language, probably because I don't overreact to it. In what context is said foul language being used?

I think Ken and the team have done a fine job with the way the splicers talk. My favorite was when a splicer was apparently attacking another splicer, saying something along the lines of "Go away, hanger-on!" Don't know why, but that just amused me.

Also, how on earth is that article "littered with foul language?" It contains exactly one instance of the word "☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺."

Swears are part of the vernacular. If they offend your delicate sensiblities, I suggest you grow some thicker skin. That is not to say that people should not strengthen and expand their vocabularies to allow them to express themselves in ways that do not always resort to curse words, but you seem to be blowing things way out of proportion here.

Lurchibald: I was thinking something more along the lines of ""Lo! My flesh hath been pierced by a leaden projectile! This is your doing, foul ruffian! Henceforth you are my sworn enemy, knave, and I shall hunt you down like the dog that you are, and nothing shall sate my bloodlust, sir, save for your skull lying broken at my feet! Have at you!" (Of course, I don't think this type of language fits the time period or setting at all, but hey..)

[Ectoplasm]

Yep, exactly what you expect from a crazed semi-human who just took a wrench to the face?

[Da Bubs]

Tarand, yes swears can be used as a writing crutch, but that doesnt mean that they always are used as one. Some people swear all the time, some rarely do ( I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you are one of the latter)
its a part of personality. I know someone who once complained that Jules and Vincent in Pulp Fiction swore too much, but you have to realize that they are hitmen, it would be rather odd if they never swore. Similarly were talking about a utopia which has gone to hell, do you really expect it's mutated, crazed inhabitents not to swear?

about it being uncreative, do you want them to think up some new swears?thats not a bad idea, I would expect them to use whatever term they use for people living on the surface derogatorily. although to rebutt what you said people generally dont look for the most creative way to say things, for example, when someone drops a heavy object on their foot they just swear, they dont look for creative things to say.

[BioShockWins]

P.S. change your avatar someone already has it

holly crap o.O!! my clone!

[BioShockWins]

I understand there is going to be a mature rating, I understand that. But what's the point of using foul language?

It is uncreative. People who use it as expressions of whatever they are feeling at the moment forsake far more creative ways to say it. People who use it are limiting themselves to a very small, undesirable portion of all language. People who use it show that they are ignorant enough not to know to use something better.

I don't feel it "makes the game more real" because it uses "every day language".

I'm not sure that gene addicted insane splicers would follow the teachings of Plato and Socrates...

Phsychologicaly people use foul language to express extreme emotion. It has little or nothing to do with creativity. I'm not sure a whole lot of people are going to go around saying, 'gosh, you shot me in the knee. That makes me feel kind of angry, may we please talk this over to express our emotions clearly?'

[Raveness]

I understand there is going to be a mature rating, I understand that. But what's the point of using foul language?

It is uncreative. People who use it as expressions of whatever they are feeling at the moment forsake far more creative ways to say it. People who use it are limiting themselves to a very small, undesirable portion of all language. People who use it show that they are ignorant enough not to know to use something better.

I don't feel it "makes the game more real" because it uses "every day language".

I couldn't disagree more with a statement such as "People who use it as expressions of whatever they are feeling at the moment forsake far more creative ways to say it"

You're lumping "People" into a specified category of purely upstanding vernacular prowess. Sure Rapture would rate higher than a Southern LA ghetto in terms of vocabulary and tact in using said vocabulary, but I doubt it is a 100% rule that you could apply to the entire populous, especially one that has experienced a psychological endemic collapse that would lead many upstanding citizens to spew diatribes that are possibly vulgarity-laden.

The focus should not be on how the game players sensibilities relate to hearing curse words, but how the curse words fit in with the Rapturian characters speaking them. In this case the odd F or S or BS said in an appropriate context of either exorbitant frustration, or as an automatic defensive reflex to a mortal threat doesn't come off as ludicrous.

[tronned]

Lurchibald: I was thinking something more along the lines of ""Lo! My flesh hath been pierced by a leaden projectile! This is your doing, foul ruffian! Henceforth you are my sworn enemy, knave, and I shall hunt you down like the dog that you are, and nothing shall sate my bloodlust, sir, save for your skull lying broken at my feet! Have at you!" (Of course, I don't think this type of language fits the time period or setting at all, but hey..)

If that were the case, I am fairly certain I would fall asleep just waiting for the dialogue to transpire...

I am fairly certain, if I were actually to meet one of Rapture's inhabitants for the first (or second or third, or every) time, the first thing I would say would be some form of creative expletive. I'm certainly not going to ask them if they want to do the Charleston.

[mercenar3]

Hey if society has issues with "foul language" its the fault of the society for labeling a word a "curse" or an "explicit". I can say poop but i can't say s---? they mean exactly the same thing only the one that is allowed sounds far less sensible, almost a childish. Curse words can be done tastefully or distastefully, if you cannot recognize this you are the ignorant one. Putting vulgarity into any piece or art for shock value is never appreciated if it is however, done to further enhance the art and make it seem more life-like and realistic then it can add to the art and make it better. I also find it interesting that you are not complaining against the violence in this game, rather a word that society has coined "explicit".

s

[BioShockWins]

Hey if society has issues with "foul language" its the fault of the society for labeling a word a "curse" or an "explicit". I can say poop but i can't say s---? they mean exactly the same thing only the one that is allowed sounds far less sensible, almost a childish. Curse words can be done tastefully or distastefully, if you cannot recognize this you are the ignorant one. Putting vulgarity into any piece or art for shock value is never appreciated if it is however, done to further enhance the art and make it seem more life-like and realistic then it can add to the art and make it better. I also find it interesting that you are not complaining against the violence in this game, rather a word that society has coined "explicit".

s

exactly
o.O

[godot]

I'm reminded of Blade Runner when Roy Batty tells Dr Eldon Tyrell, "I want more life, f*cker!!" That scene would have registered entirely differently had he only said, "I want more life", ironically because Roy Batty had been presented as highly intelligent and articulate. It ideally underscored the depth of his personal dispair in that moment. And I think we can expect to encounter plenty of dispair in Rapture.

[LordLeckie]

Swearing can be used just as effectively. simply having swearing in a game dosn't mean that its instantly uncreative, hell its more uncreative as you are restciting your vocabularuy.

[Tarand]

I'd just like to say that I haven't noticed the foul language, probably because I don't overreact to it. In what context is said foul language being used?

One of the video's where you are trapped, Andrew appears (in a TV?) and the apparent voice that is leading you around exclaims "Christ! You're trapped!". I don't believe Christ was there.. so It was used in a method that offends me. And it's not a part of MY vernacular...

I think Ken and the team have done a fine job with the way the splicers talk. My favorite was when a splicer was apparently attacking another splicer, saying something along the lines of "Go away, hanger-on!" Don't know why, but that just amused me.

No arguments there.

Also, how on earth is that article "littered with foul language?" It contains exactly one instance of the word "bull____."

Swears are part of the vernacular. If they offend your delicate sensiblities, I suggest you grow some thicker skin. That is not to say that people should not strengthen and expand their vocabularies to allow them to express themselves in ways that do not always resort to curse words, but you seem to be blowing things way out of proportion here.

The reason I find foul language unpleasant is because when one reads it, it just seems offensive and immature, it doesn't command respect and it neglects more meaningful, persuasive language of which I know that people are capable of. I think you do yourself a disservice by resorting to the use of foul language.

[Mr.Bubblez]

The reason I find foul language unpleasant is because when one reads it, it just seems offensive and immature, it doesn't command respect and it neglects more meaningful, persuasive language of which I know that people are capable of. I think you do yourself a disservice by resorting to the use of foul language.

I mean no offense, but I think you represent about .00001% of the population. Swearing is part of our culture. I think the vast majority of mature adults accept that and are not offended solely based on the type of language used. In many cases its just casual banter and a means of conveying humor (if you happen to have a sense of humor ).

[That_dude]

The reason I find foul language unpleasant is because when one reads it, it just seems offensive and immature, it doesn't command respect and it neglects more meaningful, persuasive language of which I know that people are capable of. I think you do yourself a disservice by resorting to the use of foul language.

Now, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but if you're offended at cursing, and splicers cursing at you, then I'm sure BioShock isn't the game for you. I think anyone offended by virtual beings, and words, should put the mouse away. We live in a modern society, not everyone lives by one standard, and unless you're living with your mother, or have your tongue cut off, you're allowed to curse.
Frankly, I think curse words can be used in a manner, not so offensive/immature. I know I never use words in the wrong manner, like all these kids nowadays.
I say, unless the F-bomb, or any other word, is a Semi-truck doing 120 on the highway, chasing you, then theres no reason to avoid it. They're just words afterall, which are really just sounds coming out of the mouth/vocal chords.

[borgdrone89]

Lurchibald: I was thinking something more along the lines of ""Lo! My flesh hath been pierced by a leaden projectile! This is your doing, foul ruffian! Henceforth you are my sworn enemy, knave, and I shall hunt you down like the dog that you are, and nothing shall sate my bloodlust, sir, save for your skull lying broken at my feet! Have at you!" (Of course, I don't think this type of language fits the time period or setting at all, but hey..)

also if they tried to say this:
a) you would have killed them long before they could finish saying it
b) they speak really fast like a chipmunk, and you still kill them

[MF9000]

Now, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but if you're offended at cursing, and splicers cursing at you, then I'm sure BioShock isn't the game for you. I think anyone offended by virtual beings, and words, should put the mouse away. We live in a modern society, not everyone lives by one standard, and unless you're living with your mother, or have your tongue cut off, you're allowed to curse.
Frankly, I think curse words can be used in a manner, not so offensive/immature. I know I never use words in the wrong manner, like all these kids nowadays.
I say, unless the F-bomb, or any other word, is a Semi-truck doing 120 on the highway, chasing you, then theres no reason to avoid it. They're just words afterall, which are really just sounds coming out of the mouth/vocal chords.

Not entirely true. Words are sounds true, but they have meaning and intent. Even the f-bomb has different intent and meaning depending on the context it is used in (listen to George Carlin's routine on the f-word's versatility). If you use curse words in a joking manner most folks just shrug it off and laugh. However when you're pissed and cursing then folks will definitely have a different take even if you use the same curse word. I don't think anybody can really disagree that words can have a major impact depending on what words are used and in what context. So I don't think your argument really works.

Now saying that, I am not one to be offended by the use of curse words and if used sparingly can have an impact that people will notice. However if used every third word (think Cheech and Chong movies) then their impact decreases greatly and at that point why bother using them. I agree with you in that if Tarand is offended by curse words then Bioshock may not be the game for him/her (it is a mature rated game after all). Curse words are a reality of life and can be heard everywhere. And I mean everywhere including their use by folks that you would never dream of using such langauge (for example the CEO/President of the company I work for). I don't think Bioshock will use cursing excessively. In the trailers that are out, there doesn't seem to be an overuse of expletives and when used they are appropriate for the situation.

@Tarand: I'm not sure of your age, but you will find that you will need to get a thicker skin if you're going to live in this world. There are going to be many things that will make you angry or offended, and unless you plan on living out in the wilderness you're going to have to deal with it. I don't think you represent the small percentage of the population that doesn't use curse words as Mr. Bubblez would lead us to believe, but he and dude have a point. I don't agree that you shouldn't avoid your use of them, but don't expect everybody to have your view point on the issue. You'll have to learn tolerance or you're going to be very unhappy in life.

[That_dude]

You'll have to learn tolerance or you're going to be very unhappy in life.

A one word answer to, um, answer this whole thread.

[Raveness]

The reason I find foul language unpleasant is because when one reads it, it just seems offensive and immature, it doesn't command respect and it neglects more meaningful, persuasive language of which I know that people are capable of. I think you do yourself a disservice by resorting to the use of foul language.

You're making little sense. It sounds like you yourself dislike the use of cursing in a game, yet you fail to provide counterpoints or examples as to why cursing would fail in the Rapturian setting, and simply use the obvious "there is better language to use" point or simply discount intelligence factor if there is a speck of vulgarity.

The only "disservice" Irrational would be doing would be to not include an authentic experience in the context they've provided for the game. I think, along with many here, that vulgarity, as long as it is not overdone, can enhance the state of the atmosphere.

[borgdrone89]

it would be good if there was an "allow profanity" option like there was in Prey...

[That_dude]

Last edited by Raveness : Today at 12:08 AM.

I. Hate. You.

[godot]

I. Hate. You.

Me too, especially after having such a bad spelling day yesterday.
And no, for some reason I can never see the mistake in the preview!!

[BioShockWins]

the first actual trolling of the 2k forums...
it is a sad day for all of us

[MF9000]

the first actual trolling of the 2k forums...
it is a sad day for all of us

It's not the first I've seen on this forum, but it seems to be the instance of trolling that has us sitting up and taking notice.

[godot]

the first actual trolling of the 2k forums...
it is a sad day for all of us

The trolly post was deleted and now everyone will think you're referring to my post. lol

[Tarand]

A one word answer to, um, answer this whole thread.

tol·er·ance /ˈtɒlərəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tol-er-uhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. To roll over, accept everything that comes your way, regardless of how you view it.

Seems to me that #2 is the more widely accepted definition of this term...

[Tarand]

You're making little sense.

Stating that I don't care for vulgar language hardly needs to make sense. That's like asking me to clarify a boolean answer to a boolean question.

It sounds like you yourself dislike the use of cursing in a game, yet you fail to provide counterpoints or examples as to why cursing would fail in the Rapturian setting, and simply use the obvious "there is better language to use" point or simply discount intelligence factor if there is a speck of vulgarity.

Why do I need a reason as to why cursing would fail as an environmental element in the game?

Did the countless movies or literary works of the past where no cursing occurred, did they fail? Did they unjustly receive accolades for being great movies of action, drama, war, etc. all without including foul language?

"There is better language to use" isn't simple or obvious. Listen to people like Dennis Miller. He doesn't need foul language to belittle and tear someone down (even though he does use the occasional foul language).

The only "disservice" Irrational would be doing would be to not include an authentic experience in the context they've provided for the game. I think, along with many here, that vulgarity, as long as it is not overdone, can enhance the state of the atmosphere.

System Shock 2 didn't have it, I didn't miss it. Not once did I wish that someone would run through slinging the f-bomb at me...

[lurchibald]

Stating that I don't care for vulgar language hardly needs to make sense. That's like asking me to clarify a boolean answer to a boolean question.



Why do I need a reason as to why cursing would fail as an environmental element in the game?

Did the countless movies or literary works of the past where no cursing occurred, did they fail? Did they unjustly receive accolades for being great movies of action, drama, war, etc. all without including foul language?

"There is better language to use" isn't simple or obvious. Listen to people like Dennis Miller. He doesn't need foul language to belittle and tear someone down (even though he does use the occasional foul language).



System Shock 2 didn't have it, I didn't miss it. Not once did I wish that someone would run through slinging the f-bomb at me...

i dont know, fallout wouldn't quite be the same without it.....

[CodeMonkey]

"Christ! You're trapped!". I don't believe Christ was there.. so It was used in a method that offends me. And it's not a part of MY vernacular...
.

I too find the word "Christ" offensive as it has been used to justify bigotry, exploitation, and even genocide...

[Magical Mongoose]

Stating that I don't care for vulgar language hardly needs to make sense. That's like asking me to clarify a boolean answer to a boolean question.

Why do I need a reason as to why cursing would fail as an environmental element in the game?

Did the countless movies or literary works of the past where no cursing occurred, did they fail? Did they unjustly receive accolades for being great movies of action, drama, war, etc. all without including foul language?

System Shock 2 didn't have it, I didn't miss it. Not once did I wish that someone would run through slinging the f-bomb at me...

A:What is "boolean" never heard that be4 ever.

B:"Did the countless movies or literary works of the past where no cursing occurred, did they fail? Did they unjustly receive accolades for being great movies of action, drama, war, etc. all without including foul language?"

What about the all the movies that had frequent swearing in them, did all of them fail? Swearing isnt as bad as it used to be, most people don't even care that much about swearing anymore. Now i'm not a swearaholic (4 lack of a better word) but i'm not gonna cringe at the sound of a cuss word.

C:System Shock 2 didnt have it cause it was aliens that took over the humans minds, wat did aliens need swearing 4? (Besides the game would only be able to handle so many lines) These are real people, who've become hideous, insane, have a never-ending crave for more ADAM.

Exp: If someone came up to me and whacked me on the head with a wrench i'm gonna say something along the lines of ''Oh F***.....Jesus Christ, wat the hell?!

If u actually hit someone they're not gonna go (at least no1 i no) "Owie!, That hurt, u mean old man! I'm gonna teach u a lesson now!''

[CodeMonkey]

tol·er·ance /ˈtɒlərəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tol-er-uhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. To roll over, accept everything that comes your way, regardless of how you view it.

Seems to me that #2 is the more widely accepted definition of this term...

The irony here is that you are the one being intolerant. You are trying to dictate what I should or should not be allowed to hear or think simply because YOU find it offensive. That, to me, is the height of intolerance and I find it highly offensive.

It's not surprising either that you have made up a definition for the word "tolerance." Why would you let something so trivial as the truth get in the way of your "beliefs?" To paraphrase Samuel Clemens, "Faith is believing in something you know isn't true."

Main Entry: tol·er·ance
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun
1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : ENDURANCE, FORTITUDE, STAMINA
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION
3 : the allowable deviation from a standard; especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece
4 a (1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure <developed a tolerance to painkillers>; also : the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen (2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

[CodeMonkey]

A:What is "boolean" never heard that be4 ever.

Thanks for being on the side of reason and all but I'm really going to have to tell you to JFGI on that one...

Google is your friend.

[Magical Mongoose]

I know this sounds offensive but who uses the word boolean, hell i've read over 500 books never came across that one b4.

P.S i looked it up on google.

[godot]

System Shock 2 didn't have it...

Reality check...

Audiolog of Capt Diego to Security Chief Bronson:

"You listen to me you little ☺☺☺☺☺. Either you disband that little toy army of yours or some real military is going to come down there and walk all over your rent-a-cops..."

Bronson's voice caught at the end of Malek's final audiolog:

"Turn that damned thing off."

Female Scientist's audiolog of her transformation (can't remember name):

What do you know? Bronson was right after all. I imagine I've got about an hour, but I'm tracking the transformations in the hope that the data might be useful to someone else. There are tumours on leg and back. I can feel that thing inside me, chewing, growing fat. My theory is they need a living host to complete the transformation. Screw Diego, screw Korenchkin, screw Tau Ceti V!! If someone finds this don't have any regrets about punching my clock. I was already gone.

To paraphrase your original post...

Aren't the above uses of ☺☺☺☺☺, damned and screw examples of uncreative foul language used as expressions of whatever the characters are feeling at the moment? Were those characters limiting themselves to a very small, undesirable portion of all language and ignorant enough not to know to use something better?

[Bartekk]

1. This whole debate is NOT about whether you like swearing or not. I don't see how can you create a believable world with no swearing. People DO swear in real life. And if you want to create a lifelike society in a game or movie, I don't see why they should carefully choose their words and, most importantly, watch their language not to offend anyone.

2. There should be NO option to turn swearing off. Simply because if that offends you, you should just stay away from that game. Same goes for reducing gore amount. These things are integral part of the game. Don't like'em? Go play something else.

[Tarand]

The irony here is that you are the one being intolerant. You are trying to dictate what I should or should not be allowed to hear or think simply because YOU find it offensive. That, to me, is the height of intolerance and I find it highly offensive.

It's not surprising either that you have made up a definition for the word "tolerance." Why would you let something so trivial as the truth get in the way of your "beliefs?" To paraphrase Samuel Clemens, "Faith is believing in something you know isn't true."

I didn't make up the definition.. #2 is a simple paraphrasing of responses I received in this thread.

Samuel Clemens isn't someone I would quote, especially about religious beliefs. His beliefs began and ended with himself, something, unfortunately, shard by most of the human race (oh dear, another generalization).

[Tarand]

Don't like'em? Go play something else.

Most of the replies could be limited to this very phrase, yet there were people that opted for being rude or insensitive (oops, there goes my thick skin).

[CitrusFreak12]

I too find the word "Christ" offensive as it has been used to justify bigotry, exploitation, and even genocide...

ZING! :P

And it's not a part of MY vernacular...

The vernacular is the common language. The language spoken by the majority of people. Your usage of the word doesn't make much sense in that respect.

I'm sorry that such words offend you, but as you can plainly see, you are in the minority. You can't expect the majority of people to go out of their way to cater to your personal beliefs. I was serious when I said you need to grow a thicker skin, because you really shouldn't sweat the small stuff like this. You may take pride in your discerning use of the English language, but I'd rather you didn't attempt infringe upon the rights of us hoi polloi to pepper our talk with colorful terms.

Swears can illustrate the speaker's emotions, they can be used to punctuate them as well. If you take ""Christ! You're trapped!" or any of Godot's examples and remove them of any "offensive" material, you'd end up with something very jejune.

I support Irrational Game's decision to not baby us or censor themselves for the sake of the few. I'm an adult, and I can make my own decisions. You are too. If the use of a select list of words offends you so much that you think you wouldn't be able to enjoy the game, you have the choice to not buy it. Conversely, you have the choice to overlook what you view as a weakness of the game, accept it for what it is, and buy the game.

BioShock is all about choice, after all.

Most of the replies could be limited to this very phrase, yet there were people that opted for being rude or insensitive (oops, there goes my thick skin).

Many of us prefer to take advantage of the vast pallete of words to illustrate our points, rather than limit ourselves to a single phrase, oh delicate little snowflake.