Why No Editor?

[Zanderat]

As a senior member of the TES, modding community, I can attest to ability of good mods to lengthen a game's life and breath new life into it. BS has unlimited modding potential. If you don't believe me see here: Oblivion Mods or here: Morrowind Mods. 2K is blowing a huge business opportunity here as well as a chance to regain some measure of street cred.

Since Ken Levine has said in the past that there would be an editor (amongst other broken promises), I basically perceive him as being untrustworthy. Ken prove me wrong.

Just my two cents.

[BloodRayne]

The first post I ever made no this forum was requesting if an SDK would come out (as we were doubting about wether to move our Hexen:Edge of Chaos total conversion already in development for 3 years to the Bioshock platform).

First, the thread was moved and merged somewhere far away into another thread with hundreds of posts, then after some abuse from fanboys claiming I was being 'coy' for asking this so early in the dev process (1 month before it came out) the post disappeared.

We have had 32.000 visitors to our total conversion website alone, one more opportunity lost for 2k. I don't think there are a lot more options for 2k to 'fix' their street cred.

[Quanta]

The running theory atm is that they can't release UnrealEd3 and the SDK before Epic does, though I guess that would fall apart instantly if GoW has an editor (not sure if it does).

[FomarThain]

The running theory atm is that they can't release UnrealEd3 and the SDK before Epic does, though I guess that would fall apart instantly if GoW has an editor (not sure if it does).

RoboBlitz released the editor with that game. So I don't think that theory holdsup.

GoW does come with the edior.

I think in the case of BS its more a matter of focusing on a patch then it is worrying about releasing an editor. I least that is what I hope. But like you guys I do hope one comes out for BS.

[greylantern]

What's the point of releasing an editor for a game that gets so many fundamental PC issues completely wrong, from control, display, animation, physics, sound problems... it would be a nightmare to mod for compared to a 'polished' game like something from EPIC.

Honestly your time would be far better spent working on mods for epic game with online support thrown in that this closed ended and DRM riddled console port.

[501105]

Shamefully that is true maybe after 1 or 2 amazing patches can an editor really be used to add amazing (working) things.

[Quanta]

What's the point of releasing an editor for a game that gets so many fundamental PC issues completely wrong, from control, display, animation, physics, sound problems... it would be a nightmare to mod for compared to a 'polished' game like something from EPIC.

The only thing I found to be wrong with the game was the mouse, and even then, it's only noticeable if VSync is off. It's certainly a genuine concern, but it's not much of a game-breaker imho.

There are other legitimate issues as well (shader and sound issues being among them), but stuff like the physics or the ragdoll effects are more nitpicky than anything.

Honestly your time would be far better spent working on mods for epic game with online support thrown in that this closed ended and DRM riddled console port.

But I like this game.

Seriously though, who knows what the future portends for BioShock here? Even if it had multiplayer at release, it would pale in comparison to what the modding community would eventually come up with. It's been like that with virtually every FPS since Quake. So, I'm going to wait and see.

[FomarThain]

Shamefully that is true maybe after 1 or 2 amazing patches can an editor really be used to add amazing (working) things?

I definately think so. Since there is no dialog system to bog down development time I think the game lends itself to map making and the like very well. With new static meshes and new splicer models/types and new plaimids I think alot of fun can be had with this game.

Lots of new maps could be made for this game that explore other areas of Rapture and/or maybe other places as well.

Leaving multiplayer aside I think this game will be as fun to mod/map make for as GoW from a single player stand point.

The lack of a dialog system to worry about is key.

[miasma]

Don't think 2K want Bioshock to be around too long, it's just a rental game afterall so making an editor is against 2K policy perhaps?

[FomarThain]

Don't think 2K want Bioshock to be around too long, it's just a rental game afterall so making an editor is against 2K policy perhaps?

Eh, what?

Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. Reports Third Quarter Fiscal 2007 Financial Results

"2K Games released BioShock for Xbox 360™ video game and entertainment system from Microsoft and Games for Windows® in its fourth quarter. This wholly owned and internally developed 2K title is the highest rated game to date on Xbox 360 according to both GameRankings.com and Metacritic.com, and has already shipped over 1.5 million units worldwide since its launch in late August."

---------------------------------------------

BioShock Take-Two's 'New Hit Franchise'

"Take-Two released its third-quarter earnings today, reporting a dip in revenue to $206.4 million, down from $241.2 million during the same period last year. Those numbers were largely ascribed to sales of The Darkness, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, The Bigs and All-Pro Football 2K8.

But those figures don't include revenue from sales of BioShock, the 2K runaway hit that Take-Two officials say is breaking industry sales records and raking in royalty-free dough. Developed by Irrational Games (now 2K Boston and 2K Australia), BioShock is an original Take-Two-owned property and one the company said it plans to leverage in the future.

"Clearly we have a new hit franchise on our hands," said company chairman Strauss Zelnick in an earnings conference call Monday afternoon.

Although Take-Two execs made no precise statements about the future of Brand BioShock, in a discussion about the future release schedule of the Grand Theft Auto franchise, officials said the roughly two-year GTA release cycle would likely apply to future BioShock installments.

BioShock has already shipped 1.5 million units worldwide and is expected to contribute mightily to Take-Two's bottom line in the fourth quarter."

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Me thinks you have opinion confused with fact.

[miasma]

Eh, what?

---------------------------------------------

Me thinks you have opinion confused with fact.

I'm not suggesting that they won't want to sell us Bioshock 2, the rental returns, before too long. Or Bioshock 3 if they can get away with it. But they obviously don't want people playing Bioshock 1 for long or care much about their current customers.

[Joeyd999]

Bioshock 2 will have an updated engine with features that wont be possible with the SDK. In short, the SDK is not much competition for bioshock 2.

[FomarThain]

But they obviously don't want people playing Bioshock 1 for long or care much about their current customers.

And you know this.........how?

[FomarThain]

In short, the SDK is not much competition for bioshock 2.

I would say it is no competition at all. That would be like saying Neverwinter Nights should not have come out with an editor because it would hurt the sales of Neverwinter Nights 2. In reality the opposite happens. I think you can make similar arguments for UTX, Oblivion, Supreme Commander and just about any game that comes with an editor.

Keeping it on the table helps everyone imo.

[Zanderat]

I would say it is no competition at all. That would be like saying Neverwinter Nights should not have come out with an editor because it would hurt the sales of Neverwinter Nights 2. In reality the opposite happens. I think you can make similar arguments for UTX, Oblivion, Supreme Commander and just about any game that comes with an editor.

Keeping it on the table helps everyone imo.

Exactly right. Look how active the Morrowind modding community is. And it came out five years ago.

[zerpth]

thats the last straw.

2kgames won't see another dime from me if they don't put out an SDK.

I really mean that.

[Quanta]

thats the last straw.

2kgames won't see another dime from me if they don't put out an SDK.

I really mean that.

A complaint I can agree with? INCONCEIVABLE!

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...onceivable.jpg

[Newbiezilla]

A complaint I can agree with? INCONCEIVABLE!g[/img]

So, you'd pass up on BioShock 2 in such an event?

[Zanderat]

So, you'd pass up on BioShock 2 in such an event?

Yes.

[Newbiezilla]

I can say fair enough to people avoiding BioShock 2 if they use securom again, but this SDK thing... Its not a small issue, and I know it can lengthen the life of a game exponentially but passing up on a sequel for it? Well, wow... Talk about sticking to your principles.

That, or insanity.

[Quanta]

I can say fair enough to people avoiding BioShock 2 if they use securom again, but this SDK thing... Its not a small issue, and I know it can lengthen the life of a game exponentially but passing up on a sequel for it? Well, wow... Talk about sticking to your principles.

That, or insanity.

Well, I can't honestly say that I would absolutely skip over BioShock II because the original lacked an SDK, but it's certainly something to consider to keep it from sitting on the shelf after a couple of months. :P

[FomarThain]

Look how active the Morrowind modding community is. And it came out five years ago.

Great example. Morrowind's life span is ridiculous especially considering its "sequel" is out!

[win3k]

Evening chaps

Just curious - has there been any official announcement on the possibility of an editor/SDK? I ask because 2K Liz said (here - thread now locked):

i'm closing this thread because insulting moderators will not be tolerated. i'm sorry if you are upset about the lack of a mod toolset, but simply, harrassing my moderators is not allowed.

Emphasis mine. I've tried the search function, but I can't find anything official (as in: from an authorized 2K representative, rather than just being the opinion of a non-2K forum member) that confirms whether or not an editor/SDK is going to be released.

It'd be nice if one of the 2K folks could actually let us know, rather than leaving us in the dark like this.

win3k

[Quanta]

Evening chaps

Just curious - has there been any official announcement on the possibility of an editor/SDK? I ask because 2K Liz said (here - thread now locked):



Emphasis mine. I've tried the search function, but I can't find anything official (as in: from an authorized 2K representative, rather than just being the opinion of a non-2K forum member) that confirms whether or not an editor/SDK is going to be released.

It'd be nice if one of the 2K folks could actually let us know, rather than leaving us in the dark like this.

win3k

The only thing that "confirms" (in actuality, it doesn't) that any kind of editor is in the works is a screenshot with the words "BioShock Editor" on it (presumably the splash screen when you load the program), but this isn't really about whether it's going to happen or not, it's more of a "Please, please, PLEASE release one! PLEASE! I'll father your children!" kind of thread.

[redrain85]

Just curious - has there been any official announcement on the possibility of an editor/SDK?

Nothing yet, win. Nothing at all.

[Zanderat]

Unless you count saying pre-launch that an editor will be available.

[Zanderat]

Unless you count saying pre-launch that an editor will be available.

Stupid no edit function... Try again...
Ken Levine saying pre-launch that an editor will be available.

[Quanta]

Stupid no edit function... Try again...
Ken Levine saying pre-launch that an editor will be available.

The suits probably rooster-blocked him.

[win3k]

Morning chaps

The only thing that "confirms" (in actuality, it doesn't) that any kind of editor is in the works is a screenshot with the words "BioShock Editor"

That and the clause in the warranty @ page 32 of the printed manual, paragraph 5:

blah blah blah....You are expressly prohibited from selling or otherwise profiting from any levels, add-on packs, sequels or other items based upon or related to the SOFTWARE and ACCOMPANYING MATERIALS or created by utilization of the SOFTWARE's level editor. If you create levels, add-on packs, sequels or other... blah blah blah

Emphasis mine.

So, it would appear that there was at least provision made to release an editor (prior anouncement, splash screen, warranty clause), but still (what, 2 months down the line?) no official word. Tut tut.

"Please, please, PLEASE release one! PLEASE!"

This.

win3k

[501105]

This game really needs one or it will vanish into nothingness pretty soon

[2K Elizabeth]

there won't be an editor released for BioShock. one was never planned.

[greylantern]

there won't be an editor released for BioShock. one was never planned.

Finally, after a month of debate... an answer. Just as I thought and why I told people not to expect one, It 'may' be down to DRM or it may be down to purely developers decision but either way did any of us really expect different?

I'm personally not that bothered though and appreciate the answer, I wouldn't want to map/mod Bioshock as I don't feel it's worth it... the community is non existent and will only tail off from here. UT3 and Crysis will be the place for mods.

[CherryIcee]

Disappointing indeed. Personally I felt Bioshock had great mod potential, but unfortunately this is the last nail in the coffin of a great game that went unsupported. It will die on the vine and wither away without strong community support. Honestly with November's line up of games, Bioshock will be soon forgotten. Too bad really as I truly did enjoy the game and I know that I will come back to it at some point and enjoy running through it again. I agree that UT and Crysis will obviously be the place to put my support and effort into in terms of mod development.

[Skalui]

Sorry, I should be glad we got an answer, but could I ask now we get a good reason? Why was one never planned?

[win3k]

there won't be an editor released for BioShock.

Thank you for the confirmation.

one was never planned

Ah. So the clause in the warranty got there by accident/was a legal catchall?

I am at a loss for words. Thanks for the revoke tool. Hellooooooo ebay!!!!

win3k

[redrain85]

Considering the continued disdain 2K has shown their PC customers since the demo debacle, this latest news hardly comes as a surprise.

It's become clear that 2K doesn't want to invest another penny in the PC version that they don't have to. The only reason we even got one, was because of Irrational's insistence and the expectation that SS2 fans had. To 2K, the PC version was just an afterthought and a way to grab a little more cash on the side. Once the patch is out, that will be the end for PC support.

Some of you will probably respond by saying that "no matter what 2K does, it's never good enough for you jerks who complain". Well, you're right! It's not good enough. The way 2K has handled everything regarding Bioshock since its release has been a public relations disaster. It's taken weeks - months! - to get any straight answers about various issues, including whether there would be an SDK. Why the stalling? Why not tell us this news from the very beginning?

Anyway, Bioshock will be the last 2K game that I buy. And it really saddens me to see Irrational's legacy tainted this way.

[FomarThain]

there won't be an editor released for BioShock. one was never planned.

[New Horizon]

there won't be an editor released for BioShock. one was never planned.

I know you're just the messenger Liz, so don't take this personally, but what an utter load of ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺.

From the beginning, this game was trumpeted as a spiritual successor to System Shock 2...yet, they never planned to release the editor? What kind of planning is that? System Shock 2 has had some great Fan Missions created, and Bioshock...by it's very design...would be far more open to Fan Missions than System Shock 2. I'm actually quite sickened by this.

I've spent the years Bioshock was in development praising Irrational Studios, and trusting them on blind faith alone. I honestly believed they wouldn't let down the PC fanbase. What really smacks me in the face even more, is that there is this complete disregard for the feelings of PC gamers who have felt hurt.

I don't know if Ken fully realizes the impact his personal nature and willingness to communicate truly had during development. I know it meant a LOT to the folks over the the TTLG forums. A LOT. Whether it meant anything to Ken or not, he did forge an allegiance with those people and they trusted him. I feel very betrayed....not because the game turned out the way it did, but because the PC players were fed something else during production and are now told to 'get over it..the game is what it is'. Yup, it sure is that.

You may enjoy the success you've earned 2KBoston, but you've failed to earn respect. It's clear that Irrational Games is nothing more than a memory, and so too is my hope for any type of intelligent gaming anymore.

[New Horizon]

Oh, and while I'm at it. Can we PLEASE get an edit button? I feel like I'm on some kind of message board for dummies. I think most of us know how to use an edit button.

[2K Elizabeth]

Oh, and while I'm at it. Can we PLEASE get an edit button? I feel like I'm on some kind of message board for dummies. I think most of us know how to use an edit button.

please stop asking. the edit button was horribly abused back in the day, and until these forums calm down (i'm having a lot of problems with people breaking rules and i'm trying to limit banning) it will not be coming back.