Please take all SecuROM and activation issues here! Thank You

[Krackcode]

The truth?

Gee, I wonder who posted the BioShock game and Rootkit controversy?
" [B]SecuROM
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SecuROM is a CD/DVD copy protection product, most often used for computer games, developed by Sony DADC. SecuROM aims to resist home media duplication devices, professional duplicators, and reverse engineering attempts. The newest versions (v4 and up) prevent 1:1 CD-R copies from being made. Certain programs can circumvent its protection, but can't duplicate it. While the use of SecuROM is not regarded as controversial as some other copy protection schemes, it has been known to cause problems. It installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables; while troubling some, 32bit and 64bit executables are much more common. [1]
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Versions, detection and technology of SecuROM
o 1.1 SecuROM v1.x–v3.x
o 1.2 SecuROM v4.6
o 1.3 SecuROM v4.7 and above
o 1.4 SecuROM v 7.x
+ 1.4.1 Known problems
+ 1.4.2 BioShock game and Rootkit controversy
* 2 See also
* 3 References
* 4 External links

[edit] Versions, detection and technology of SecuROM

[edit] SecuROM v1.x–v3.x

One of the following files should exist in the installed directory (Depending on the operating system) or in the root of the original CDs:

* CMS16.DLL
* CMS_95.DLL
* CMS_NT.DLL.

The protection can also be recognized by DADC on the inside ring of the CD. DADC is a CD manufacturing plant; the more recent SecuROM protected games are also pressed in other plants. Open the main executable using a hex editor and search for the following ASCII text (it should appear twice): CMS

[edit] SecuROM v4.6

SecuROM v4.6 has been the underdog of commercial copy protection. The protection modifies a CD-ROM's q-channel in order to make a protected original distinguishable from a copy.

A set of nine locations where the Q-Channel is purposely destroyed is computed by the following function (demonstrated as python-code), using a vendor specific key.

BadSQ = 0x0
VendorKey = [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
Seed = [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
BadSQTable = [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
round = 0
for a in range (0,256):
BadSQ = BadSQ + (VendorKey[a % 9] & 0x1F) + 0x20
for b in range (0,9):
if (Seed == a):
BadSQTable[round] = BadSQ
round += 1

VendorKey[], Seed[] and BadSQ are initialized to secret values.
Possible optimizations were omitted to reflect the original implementation.

The function calculates nine sector numbers; if the corresponding Q-channel is not readable at these locations, the CD is considered being original. Note that the key is always the same for all titles issued by a specific vendor, resulting in identical Q-channel patterns. Also note that every key has 134,217,727 "twins" that will produce an identical BadSQTable.

[edit] SecuROM v4.7 and above

After development on SecuROM had apparently been stopped, SecuROM v4.7 had been the first updated version for months, obviously being a "public" beta. The new SecuROM brought several major changes about how the protection works and how it is integrated into the target program.

Unlike SecuROM v4.6, which relied on illegal SubQ-Information, the new scheme utilises "data density measurement" (not to be confused with "data position measurement" as being used by other protections). While the data density on normal CD/DVD-ROMs constantly degrades from the most inner to the most outer sector, data density on SecuROM v4.7 (and up) protected CD/DVD-ROMs is diversified by a certain, vendor specific pattern. This pattern can be reconstructed by high-precision time measurement during software<->CD/DVD-drive interaction and reflects the vendor-key as mentioned above.

To do so the protection defines a set of locations spread over the disc and issue two SCSI-read-commands per location to the drive. As the disc spins, the time it takes for the second command to return depends on the time it takes the disc to do a full round and thus depends on the data-density. To achieve the required timing-precision, the RDTSC command is used, which has a resolution of about 0.28 microseconds on x86-CPUs.

The pattern is made up from 72 locations, each either with normal or higher than normal density and thus reflects a binary pattern which assembles to the vendor specific key mentioned above.

SecuROM v4.84 and beyond includes "Trigger Functions" which allow the developer to program multiple and fully customizable authentication checks throughout the entire application. As the protection places itself between the application's code and the OS, it can alter the behaviour of selected system functions.

Consider the following example (Pseudocode)

if (GetCurrentDate() == '13-32-2999') then
WorkCorrectly()
else
ScrewItUpSomehow()
end if

Obviously, a "normal" GetCurrentDate() function will never return '13-32-2999'. However, as SecuROM can modify the function's result, the application can check for the protection's presence during runtime; if the protection has been removed, the function will return with some other valid value, giving the application the opportunity to display an error message or render the application unusable (e.g. provoking a crash to desktop, making enemies invincible).

There are many different ways how "triggers" can be integrated into a program, making it much more complicated to universally circumvent the protection.

[edit] SecuROM v 7.x

Latest SecuROM Versions are all 7.x versions which are released and updated continuously.
SecuROM 7.x, if run under a non-admin user account, installs its own service called UAService7.exe — (ring 3), which works in ring 3 of the computer's operating system.
Securom has said: "it has been developed to enable users without Windows™ administrator rights the ability to access all SecuROM™ features"[1]

[edit] Known problems

* The version of SecuROM that comes with Armed Assault, S.T.A.L.K.E.R (European release only), Neverwinter Nights 2, Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (patched to v1.04), Tomb Raider Anniversary (demo and full version), Overlord and Bioshock (demo and full version) prevents the game from running at all if Process Explorer, a free tool offered by Microsoft, has been run since the previous reboot, however a workaround for this Process Explorer v10.xx bug (v9.25 is not affected) can be found here[2].

* Certain games installed using SecuROM will prevent other select games from working correctly, and will continue to do so even after game is uninstalled.[citation needed]

[edit] BioShock game and Rootkit controversy

BioShock has been incorrectly accused of installing a Rootkit, as Securom is not a rootkit. An official announcement was even made stating that no rootkit is installed[3]. Users unfamiliar with computer security have taken to use a Microsoft tool known as RootkitRevealer, which flags issues on a computer that indicate areas needing additional scrutiny. Further scrutiny indicates that this flag was raised improperly on account of a null byte in a string of characters (a perfectly legal piece of data) being found in a registry entry. Null bytes in value strings are improperly interpreted by common registry visualization tools (RegEdit) as end-of-string characters; such tools then fail to display the whole string. This is a limitation of those tools, and not a problem in itself.



I find these points particularly interesting:

" Known problems

Bioshock/SecuROM also accesses the internet and attempts to bypass firewall permissions at some point during its installation, and installs files in a hidden directory[4] that cannot easily be deleted [5]. Users have stated that in order to install the game, their firewalls and antivirus programs needed to to be turned off and active virus monitoring services needed to be shut down with XP restarted with these programs and services properly disabled.[6]"

* The version of SecuROM that comes with Armed Assault, S.T.A.L.K.E.R (European release only), Neverwinter Nights 2, Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (patched to v1.04), Tomb Raider Anniversary (demo and full version), Overlord and Bioshock (demo and full version) prevents the game from running at all if Process Explorer, a free tool offered by Microsoft, has been run since the previous reboot, however a workaround for this Process Explorer v10.xx bug (v9.25 is not affected) can be found here[2].

* Certain games installed using SecuROM will prevent other select games from working correctly, and will continue to do so even after game is uninstalled.[citation needed] "

We can all argue til we're blue in the face. But Bioshock and SecuROM are installing secret, even HIDDEN files, that CAN adversly affect other programs even AFTER Bioshock is un-installed.

[Konn]

you just called it a trojan horse, but provide no proof from a reputable security website.

It installs itself unanounced alongside the installation of another program, that's the damned definition of a trojan horse and it's bleedin' obvious without needing to cite a reference.

Do I need the OK from an analyst before I can say that water is wet?

[Sir_Brizz]

Nope, not in my collection (see previous post). You said you only needed one, so.

Perhaps it is par for the course, but only if the consumer allows it to. Unreasonable, and especially undisclosed DRM features cannot and will not be tolerated.

I really don't see that we disagree in anything other than the level of annoyance the particular DRM in Bioshock provides.

stuff

I can't even respond tyo you. You no longer have any interest in discussing the issues.

Bioshock has been cracked. I won't discuss it here, but its actually a fairly simple workaround.

My point is, since the software is pointless now, and the only people being punished is the legitimate customers (pirates aren't even bound to the 5 install rule), can we please see an end to this nonsense?

The crack doesn't remove SecuROM. Do a simple check, the registry file included with the hack adds the invalid SecuROM keys to the registry.

It installs itself unanounced alongside the installation of another program, that's the damned definition of a trojan horse and it's bleedin' obvious without needing to cite a reference.

Do I need the OK from an analyst before I can say that water is wet?

That's not true. If a trojan is anything that installs itself "unannounced" then just about every program contains a trojan horse.

[UNATCOII]

[QUOTE=Krackcode;187018]The truth?

You can find the truth here, with a massive edit by a guy named Fractal3, doing such editing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=154935271

So Wiki editors, time to set the record straight.

[Mikeysama]

The crack doesn't remove SecuROM. Do a simple check, the registry file included with the hack adds the invalid SecuROM keys to the registry.

Oh, guess we have to wait another week or two, lol. While I'm not going to pirate this game on the basis that inconvenient DRM is not an excuse for stealing an entire game, I see no moral problems in using a crack on a purchased copy. I'm not the reason the DRM is there in the first place, I'm not going to take the bullet.

[Konn]

The crack doesn't remove SecuROM. Do a simple check, the registry file included with the hack adds the invalid SecuROM keys to the registry.

Does that matter at all? The crack still works to pirate the game.

Are you saying the crack somehow doesn't count because it doesn't nuke SecuROM altogether? Anyone who installs the game with the crack can use the full game, with no disc, and with no activation... and any future potential patches will have no effect on any pre-existing installs, and will be cracked again in a matter of days since the primary modus operandi of SecuROM is now understood well enough to be defeated.

[PaladinWarrior]

Does that matter at all? The crack still works to pirate the game.

Are you saying the crack somehow doesn't count because it doesn't nuke SecuROM altogether? Anyone who installs the game with the crack can use the full game, with no disc, and with no activation... and any future potential patches will have no effect on any pre-existing installs, and will be cracked again in a matter of days since the primary modus operandi of SecuROM is now understood well enough to be defeated.

Secondly manual removal of SecuROM registry keys renders BioShock inoperable without a crack (using retail purchased copy of BioShock).

Using the crack on purchased retail copy then manually removing the SecuROM registry keys enables BioShock to work without problems.

[Kyorisu]

It matters for those who say "OMG SECUROM ME GOING TO PIRATE.". It's a pathetic excuse for Piracy because one way or another it's still installed onto their machine.

[checkers]

My real problem with securom is that it will not let you start the game when Process Explorer, or many other of the wonderful Sysinternals tools have been run, at any point since last bootup.
This for me is almost insanely annoying. Process explorer has replaced taskmgr on my system for a long while now, and it resides in my startup folder -- or at least it did until I wanted to play Bioshock. Now, I have to specially reboot my computer whenever I want to play Bioshock.
This is highly annoying for two reasons:
1) I lose all my open programs. It's annoying to have to close firefox and all it's open tabs, all looking at a particular area of a page. I can save the pages with a session manager, but not the location. The same occurs with many code editors, folders etc. I can't even stop many rendering jobs mid go, which means I have to either delay when I play bioshock, or cancel a render mid job and waste hours of CPU time.
2) There should be no reason for this protection to exist. If the game wants to prevent PE from running, I can live with that. It's highly irritating that it will refuse to run if PE has been started at all, especially given the huge ease in which the DLLs securom looks for can be masked (sadly, I can't do this easily as I run the game through steam).

[immateriaux]

I can't even respond tyo you. You no longer have any interest in discussing the issues

I think it has become obvious that you can't respond to me, you've avoided addressing the questions I have asked several times in a row now.

Why is that?

To say it's because I'm not discussing "the issues" is just totally pathetic really. If you're not man enough to accept the fact that you've gotten something wrong, well then, on that account, yes, I've no interest in discussing matters with you.

[Sir_Brizz]

I think it has become obvious that you can't respond to me, you've avoided addressing the questions I have asked several times in a row now.

Why is that?

To say it's because I'm not discussing "the issues" is just totally pathetic really. If you're not man enough to accept the fact that you've gotten something wrong, well then, on that account, yes, I've no interest in discussing matters with you.

It's because you aren't even interested in my opinion. You've repeatedly asked the same stupid questions when I have already repeatedly answered them. What point is there in discussing it with you further if you won't even read what I say?

I don't like DRM. I don't like activation. I don't have a stick up my butt about it in this case like you apparently do. And I refuse to continue any further discussion with you about. Simple as that.

[Krackcode]

The crack simply replaces a regular file with a downloaded cracked file which by-passes the registration and confirmation process via internet; so in essence, you can enter anything you like, and since the info just bounces right back to that file location, it never hits the net, the game becomes activated.

Now, if this were my game, from this point forward, I would only allow registered users to download any future patches or updates. Of course this won't stop people from using Torrents. But the devs do have the power to restrict places like fileplanet, download.com...etc., from ever hosting a download location for future patches or expansions.

And for the people using Torrents or other p2p programs, use it at your own risk. I refuse to ever use any p2p warez...because that is exactly what they are...warez.

Now to get back ON topic:

The whole point of people who legally bought the game, many of them the minute the store opened, did so without any knowledge of limited activations.
Hell, I am afraid to even try and install the game on my vista premium 64-bit rigs...who knows if it will work. And if it doesn't, then poof, there goes my activations.

Not to even mention that I upgrade machines constantly. I live for the next generation of main boards and CPU's. I even like to benchmark my different machines when I get a new game like Bioshock, BF2 or F.E.A.R. ; and see which rig works the best. (I currently have 5 rigs, one gaming laptop, and am building another rig later today.)... And since SecuROM binds the Software to the Hardware, I surmise that I would probably, (assuming I had no major hardware failures in that time), would burn up my activations within 12 months easily.

Now, at this point, I still haven't even installed Bioshock yet. And I am unsure if I am going to. With the known issues of the current version of SecuROM, that mean it could leave some games unplayable...even if I were to un-install the game and scour my PC, for those hidden SecuROM files. It's a known issue with the current version. And that alone is enough for me to say,"No thanks."

And for those who don't believe SecuROM causes issues, go to their own website and see for yourself. I've already posted links in previous pages of this thread.

[immateriaux]

It's because you aren't even interested in my opinion. You've repeatedly asked the same stupid questions when I have already repeatedly answered them. What point is there in discussing it with you further if you won't even read what I say?

I don't like DRM. I don't like activation. I don't have a stick up my butt about it in this case like you apparently do. And I refuse to continue any further discussion with you about. Simple as that.

The point is that you have not answered the questions at all. For example: Are non-gamers not entitled to voice their opinions on the issue? No answer. Are people entitled to complain to more than one body on the issue of invasive security protection? No answer. Is the example of HL2 not the "one" example you required re declaration of copy protection on the box? No answer. Is Securom essentially un-installable, your answer: "it is what is is". And so on.

What has puzzled me throughout is your motivation for continuing to attempt to justify the dismissal of gamers concerns here over activation and Securom - you say you don't like them yet repeatedly argue that people should not be concerned with them. I'm concerned with it (along with many others here) and do not believe it is justifiable to dismiss these concerns either by telling people "You've already got it so SHUT UP", as you've done, or by trying to compare activation in entertainment software with Windows XP or once off activation with "limited activation".

If having a stick up my butt is what is required to highlight the falseness of some of your posts here, fine, stick butt it is then.

[Sir_Brizz]

Are non-gamers not entitled to voice their opinions on the issue? No answer.

Non-PC gamers? No. Not on this particular issue. Not on this particular game. There is a problem, it's not limited to 2K, it's not limited to Bioshock. Go make your voice heard somewhere where it WILL MATTER.

Are people entitled to complain to more than one body on the issue of invasive security protection? No answer.

Comaplining is fine, spreading lies is not.

Is the example of HL2 not the "one" example you required re declaration of copy protection on the box? No answer.

And I considered that, that's all I said I would do. He found one game that had announced it's copy protection mechanism (that was brand new at the time and pretty much not done well ever). He couldn't find another, specifically for a game using SecuROM, which is what I was asking anyway.

Is Securom essentially un-installable, your answer: "it is what is is". And so on.

No, essentially it's not. I already answered this several times.

If you had read any of my posts you should have already known the answers to those questions.

...activation and Securom...

I already said activation complaints were perfectly fine and valid. Complaining about SecuROM here isn't going to get anything done any more than posting on a Microsoft forum would ever be read by Bill Gates.

by trying to compare activation in entertainment software with Windows XP or once off activation with "limited activation".

If you had read you would know that I wasn't discounting anyone's complaints about activation. All I was saying is "here's a reason I don't care", but you would rather take a sentence I said and blow it way out of proportion. That's why I simply can't discuss this any further with you. As of this post, I refuse to discuss it any further with you.

[AJ Rimmer]

Hell, I am afraid to even try and install the game on my vista premium 64-bit rigs...who knows if it will work. And if it doesn't, then poof, there goes my activations.

if people centered on this one thing instead of all the securom rubbish and bickering,by now something would have been done.

could even have had a removal patch for the daft feature.

of all the theories and moaning,this is the point people should have centered on as its the only one that holds any merit.

[Rebelphoenix]

I've played it I've beat it, I'd like to uninstall it, but I can't. Not till they release the damn software so I don't use up any of my install limit.

[Destop]

@Sir_Brizz, Immateriaux
I'm not going to actively participate in the discussion you two have going anymore - I've said my piece and am done with it. You did, however, debate a point related to me (HL2 copy protection) and Sir_Brizz is not painting the correct picture. Therefore, I'm posting this as a means of rectification and additional support to the argument. For completeness' sake, here's the relevant Sir_Brizz' statement:

And I considered that, that's all I said I would do. He found one game that had announced it's copy protection mechanism (that was brand new at the time and pretty much not done well ever). He couldn't find another, specifically for a game using SecuROM, which is what I was asking anyway.

Hey hey HO there! Here is what you stated to me originally:

Find me a game with a popular copy protection that discloses on the outside of the box which copy protection scheme it uses and what it does, and then I will start to seriously consider that point.

I gave you a game with a popular copy protection (Steam) which discloses on the outside of the box which copy protection scheme it has and what it does. Nowhere do you say SecuRom specifically. Or is there again some interesting logical proof which leads you from the statement "a popular copy protection" to the statement "SecuRom"? Don't bother, rhetorical question.

Anyway, you would then *seriously* consider the point, but apparently *seriously* considering the point meant me finding another example. And now, you are trying to make it sound as if I "failed" in finding you another example and therefore I have lost the argument, right? Lie, for the simple reason that the rest of my collection is all about serials and keep-disc-in-drive so it's simply not possible for me to furnish an example at the same level to SecuRom's features in Bioshock PC.

But, I do have some examples from my serial games if that helps. Let's take Warcraft III. On the back of the box, it says:

"The use of this software product is subject to the terms of the enclose End User License Agreement. You must accept the End User License Agreement before you can use this product. The World Editor software included in this product is provided strictly for your personal use. Use of the World Editor is subject to additional license restrictions contained inside the product and may not be commerciall exploited. Use of Battle.net* is subject to the acceptance of the battle.net Terms of Use Agreement.

www.blizzard.co.uk

*: Free access to Battle.net requires access to the Internet and acceptance of the Battle.net Terms of Use Agreement. Player is responsible for all applicable internet fees."

Transparency. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Considering Warcraft III's from 2002 (and this is actually the EU release day box), I'd say big companies should be able to produce the same kind of transparency today. And not go hush-hush at first and then say "oops" a bit later.

Immateriaux - or anyone else for that matter, if you wish and are able to, feel free to provide another example.

I don't think that what you have done is "seriously considering the point" but hey, that's subjective too, right? It's all about bratwurst. Still, you admitted to considering the point. Well, how about considering the point out loud, then? Preferably seriously, too?

Finally, I would like to ask that IF you involve me into the discussion, that you do it correctly and with due respect. If not, then I don't see why I shouldn't graciously return the favour.

[immateriaux]

Non-PC gamers? No. Not on this particular issue. Not on this particular game. There is a problem, it's not limited to 2K, it's not limited to Bioshock. Go make your voice heard somewhere where it WILL MATTER.

Ah, typo, that was meant to say "non-owners", that's what I had originally said when you avoided answering. Not sure where I should go to complain that WILL MATTER. It matters that Bioshock uses limited activation/un-installable securom so obviously this is a place that matters....

Though, interestingly ...

I already said activation complaints were perfectly fine and valid. Complaining about SecuROM here isn't going to get anything done any more than posting on a Microsoft forum would ever be read by Bill Gates.

Windows Genuine Validation failed the other week leaving lots of people with crippled versions of Vista. Microsoft only became aware of this problem through posts on their forum. If people on here express distaste for the measures 2K have taken in regards to copy protection, it will be noted. They may ultimately decide to ignore those complaints but that's a decision for them to take and to accept any repercussions. However, that does not make people's complaints pointless.

It's probably also worth pointing out what the topic title is: "Talk about Securom...(etc)". I'm not sure if you expected the thread to contain remarks like "I think it is perfectly wonderful" and nothing contrary?

No, essentially it's not. I already answered this several times.

Getting bogged down in double negatives here - You posted earlier that all an un-install of Securom required was removing registry entries. This is wrong and I corrected you on that. You answered "it is what it is". So, Securom is essentially un-installable and that is one, valid, reason for people to dislike it. Whether you agree with that or not I simply cannot tell from how you've phrased your answers.

If you had read you would know that I wasn't discounting anyone's complaints about activation. All I was saying is "here's a reason I don't care", but you would rather take a sentence I said and blow it way out of proportion. That's why I simply can't discuss this any further with you. As of this post, I refuse to discuss it any further with you.

Well, I read your posts and as I said earlier, many times ( :yawn: ), your reasons for "not caring" involved stating that activation was done already and then using comparisons with an Operating System or games that did not use "Limited Authorisations" at all. So, basically, your reasons did not stand up to scrutiny. Whenever I try point this out to you, you just say I'm not reading your posts and so on.

Well, as this is the end apparently.... to summarise then:

Activation is a bad thing, we both agree. You think however no one should say anything in complaint about it whereas I think it's important people are allowed express their opinions on forums, especially the forum of the game in question.

Securom is a bad thing, for many users of PCs, especially those concerned with their PC setup, as it cannot be un-installed. I still have no idea what you think of this but I'll take "it is what it is" to mean you agree.

Finally, in the thread entitled "Talk about Securom...(etc)", I think discussing issues, and complaining, about Securom is a valid thing, and useful for the future, whereas you think we should not complain at all but go talk to Will Matter if we've a complaint. Can't see where you are coming from on that so have to leave it with a disagreement there.

[Silus]

Well, it's obvious we are being ignored. No official word on the end of the install limits. Nothing...
What is the point of these forums again ?

[immateriaux]

Immateriaux - or anyone else for that matter, if you wish and are able to, feel free to provide another example.

Hi Destop -I would hope Sir_Brizz does leave it alone now as "you haven't read my posts" type arguments are, on the whole, just tiresome. But he does owe you an apology in particular for mis-representing your side.

In regards to further examples, Dark Messiah has written on the back:
"NOTICE: This game contains technology intended to prevent copying that may conflict with some disc and virtual drives".
Their support web address is included there too.

I've a tendency to avoid PC games with intrusive copy protection so probably won't have many examples myself. And, to be honest, I kind of can't be arsed finding examples for Sir_Brizz as it's likely he will only shift the goalposts once more.

[cpt.flocke]

I dont have any problems with SecuROM or copy protection in general. I also agree with internet activation, as long as they remove it( with a patch, etc.) before they shut down their activation servers in a few years. I still want to play my games in about 10 years

What i really disagree with is the installation limit and especially the point, that i cant get my "credits" back by uninstalling the game. I dont want 2 wait a few years, up to Bioshock is not popular anymore, to beomonths, so i need to get my installation credits back as soon as possible.
Another problem of course will be complete pc crashes, without any possibility of using a future revoke tool. Whats going 2 happen with my credits in such a case......THEY ARE LOST!!!! Thats what i m angry about.
I dont want 5, i dont want 100, as a legal customer i want invinite installations. And i want to play all of my games in 10, 20 or even 50 years.

Thank you!!!!

[GoOse.buffAWh]

what are 2k doing
the bottom line is that they puting crap on your pc you don't want trayon rookit or whatever.
however the main reason i haven't brought game is beacause the installtion limit and the fact you have to actaive online you run out of installtions you have to ring securom.
What if your internet breaks down for whatever reason you can't play a game you paid for.
When they release a version without this securom/online activsion i'll buy it.

[DAEMON]

Non-PC gamers? No. Not on this particular issue. Not on this particular game. There is a problem, it's not limited to 2K, it's not limited to Bioshock. Go make your voice heard somewhere where it WILL MATTER.

You are right it is not an issue limited to Bioshock the game which was developed by 2K Boston/2K Australia and published by 2K Games, subsidiary of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc., a publically owned company traded on NASDAQ.

But contrary to what you might think this forum is not the Bioshock fan club. Not that it matters what you think as 2K Games have provided this forum to the public so their voices can be heard.

I like to call it a lovable challenge, personally. When you make them mad, you make them very, very mad, and when you make them happy, you make them very, very happy. I have to say that when I make them upset, I try to remedy what they're having a problem with and communicate it to the powers that be, and when they're happy, I also communicate that. For that we're thankful, because without that dialogue we'd be lost without being able to have that dialogue, to have that fan feedback. That's what's so good about the internet, because even if it's a negative, it's a positive for us, because I can report back to them and say "they're unhappy about this," and we'll hopefully right every wrong. That's what we're out to do, to make everyone happy if at all possible. -- Elizabeth Tobey

For someone who says they have been gaming for over a decade you act just like a child on the Internet who thinks a difference of opinion effects their experience of the game. You myopically defend a game by telling everyone else to SHUT UP because you haven't clue about the community and don't care about the industry. So you say anything, no insult is too small, no contraction too great, because you can't defend a thing.

I don't give a crap about 2K or DRM. I hate DRM and think it is the scourge of human invention (that goes for copyright and patent as well). The "precedent" I'm setting is, if you've already had SecuROM installed or some other intrusive software, then SHUT THE HELL UP.

Intellectual Property is the scourge of human invention? Well you are wrong and here is why…but you only said it because you think it is what people want to hear. Pathetic.

[Sir_Brizz]

Intellectual Property is the scourge of human invention? Well you are wrong and here is why…but you only said it because you think it is what people want to hear. Pathetic.

It is, actually. It's pointless to debate why.

I wasn't misrepresenting what I said or what you said. I would hope that you could come up with pertinent examples, but since I did originally ask for "any popular copy protection, I'll concede that point and say I am sorry for that.

[unhappy1]

Bought Bioshock but found out need the online securom thing. Down here don't have internet access, therefore do you think it is better to play the game using original software but have to link computer to internet OR rather save all the hassle by downloading cracked version? I bought the game intended to enjoy the game, however, if I downloaded the cracked version, maybe I already playing the game already compare to my current situation- tossing the DVD is the ONLY thing I can do. We don't pay $$$ to get all these troubles in order to play the game.

In short, Bioshock is a great game, but the stupid securom is a lousy thing ever I encountered for original game that I have purchased.

If I cannot get any way to link to internet which will cause a lot more troubles than the $$$ I paid, I MIGHT AS WELL USE THE CRACKED VERSION to save all the troubles. AND NO MORE 2K SECUREDOOM THING FROM ME IN DA FUTURE!!!!!

[Sir_Brizz]

How will you get the cracked version without internet access?

[Mikeysama]

How is he even posting without internet access?

[DAEMON]

It is, actually. It's pointless to debate why.

You think Intellectual Property is the scourge of human invention and that it is pointless to debate why. Are you a Communist or something? Anarchist? Seriously now.

It's point pointless to argue non sequitors, loose terms, and false comparisons so...

Intellectual property is protected under the law (criminal and civil) by copyright (art) and patent (invention), and with the technology like copy protection which when used with access control falls under the umbrella of DRM, i.e. SecuROM with online activation, and there is no such thing as “popular copy protection”.

I wasn't misrepresenting what I said or what you said. I would hope that you could come up with pertinent examples, but since I did originally ask for "any popular copy protection, I'll concede that point and say I am sorry for that.

Here is an example:

Maybe, but if it weren't for protections like this we also wouldn't be playing PC games anymore because nobody would spend money on developing them.

So everyone (producers and consumer) acting in their own self-interest and free of regulation (copyright and patent) in a thriving market...libertopia?

[unhappy1]

How will you get the cracked version without internet access?

1. Over here, maybe not long, will have cracked DVD version coming out .
2. Is it possible everybody must have access to 1 computer and 1 internet connection only ?
3. Is it bias that those don't have internet connection, can't play the game?
4. Is it that one is living at home hugging the pc, can't go to cyber cafe to online?
5. Is it that one cannot go to work and surf using company's computer?
6. Is it that must link the gaming pc to internet?
7. Is it that it is my fault that there isn't any infrastructure here to connect to internet?

For now, since already purchased the game, no matter what will have to shift my rig in order to activate the game. Have the genuine copy though.

[A-Button]

hello! bioshock is the first pc game in a long time that i wanted to buy. because of this inacceptable anti-piracy-software i can't buy it though (i think it's not okay that i after the installation of a legally purchased game (and even after the deinstallation!) my system might be more infected than after getting the game illegally somewhere else. i want a clean system! (and that's also a reason why i buy software legally))
i can't buy it on 360 either because as far as i know it has no mouse/keyboard support i don't know why i should play the game with inferior controls.

i absolutely understand that there has to be some kind of copy-protection! but personally i would want a system where i don't have to insert the disc after installation and don't have software running in background (like securom) and - of course - have no remains of the game after deinstallation. IMO it's fine though if a game comes with a unique code and has to send that code to a server when the game is started. when one installs the game on a new pc or changes the hardware of the old pc, one has to wait a few days or so.
i understand that is not okay for people who don't have a flatrate or who have more than one gaming-pc. for these people other protection-systems might be better.

so my question is: why can't we, the gamers, choose the kind of protection we want?
(or is there only one safe protection-system and the one i described above is not safe for some reason?)

[Kyorisu]

This babble about a clean system is hilarious. Please if you must keep a clean system play the game, finish it, remove both it and SecuROM. Or simply boycott the game and miss out on the fun. Still there are very few examples of the latest SecuROM version causing havoc, and even those are special cases. You probably have bigger problems like using K-Lite as your codec pack or something.

[A-Button]

You probably have bigger problems like using K-Lite as your codec pack or something.

i no that my system isn't "clean" and that it's at least probable that i installed software i didn't want to (when it came with other software). accepting this knowingly is annother thing though.

my question remains: why can't we choose the protection we want. i mean, some gamers want to play a game on 5 different pcs but don't mind any software like securom, others want to to update their systems or reinstall windows very often, others just don't like things like having to insert a cd (why does my PC have 500+GB storage??), etc.
let the gamers choose!

[Kyorisu]

i no that my system isn't "clean" and that it's at least probable that i installed software i didn't want to (when it came with other software). accepting this knowingly is annother thing though.

my question remains: why can't we choose the protection we want. i mean, some gamers want to play a game on 5 different pcs but don't mind any software like securom, others want to to update their systems or reinstall windows very often, others just don't like things like having to insert a cd (why does my PC have 500+GB storage??), etc.
let the gamers choose!

I feel I should mention whilst I was replying to you what I wrote isn't 100% meant towards you. There are people such as yourself who actually have a point regarding how it should be the consumers choice. Then you have the sheep such as those who jumped onto the "I'm now pirating this game" bandwagon.

Off topic: Only 500gb?

http://iow.free.fr/dopus9.gif

[checkers]

Still there are very few examples of the latest SecuROM version causing havoc, and even those are special cases.

Unless you define 'requiring the CD each time you play' (for those with the standard retail version) as somehow "helpful", or "good", I fail to understand how you feel the DRM restrictions are not problematic for all gamers.

DRM systems such as what bioshock use simply inconvenience legitimate users in order to glean a few days of time in which a pirated copy is yet to be released. After that time, the pirated users end up with a more functional copy of this game! It feels like I am being punished for supporting the developers.

[unhappy1]

How is he even posting without internet access?

I am posting from MARS via Antenna, happy?
Can I have 1 pc for gaming and another one surf net?
I am tired searching for the securom activation's solution without shifting gaming pc to access point!.

[Kyorisu]

Unless you define 'requiring the CD each time you play' (for those with the standard retail version) as somehow "helpful", or "good", I fail to understand how you feel the DRM restrictions are not problematic for all gamers..

This is a common requirement and is hardly problematic if your discs are stored properly. Also which the aid of programs such as Alcohol 120% you can easily make a "mini image" for use with virtual drives.

DRM systems such as what bioshock use simply inconvenience legitimate users in order to glean a few days of time in which a pirated copy is yet to be released. After that time, the pirated users end up with a more functional copy of this game! It feels like I am being punished for supporting the developers.

I'll agree on the notes of Bioshock's Activation but that's about it.

[Kyorisu]

I am posting from MARS via Antenna, happy?
Can I have 1 pc for gaming and another one surf net?
I am tired searching for the securom activation's solution without shifting gaming pc to access point!.

Are they both in the same house? If they are then by all means both should be connected to the internet. Either by the means of a wired or wireless connection.

[unhappy1]

I seldom purchase latest game. This time round I thought I am ahead of a lot of gamers by getting hold of Bioshock. Who knows I myself get shocked before playing bioshock!

In this state, I think leechers are playing happily with the games while I am tossing the physical DVD in and out of DVD rom hoping to solve the securedoom thing.

Really regret of getting this game so early. Now early birds becomes early worms.

[unhappy1]

Are they both in the same house? If they are then by all means both should be connected to the internet. Either by the means of a wired or wireless connection.

Nope! Either I move my pc to my company or my friend's house due to unavailable internet service here.

So thinking of disconnecting all the cables , shifting my my pc, hooking up all the connections, do the internet setting thing, then securedoom activation thing, put back everything, shift back, hooking up again and again....what if I format hardisk before i finished the game?

Man, I have been holding this game for days and torrent guys are happier than me!

[Kyorisu]

Hate to point out the painfully obvious, but have you ever considered moving residence?