Fixing the Danes

[King_Course]

I am from Denmark and I often play Haralds side. Their berserkers are fun, but the rest just feels like an uphill battle. Mostly because he is often placed in tundra with difficult city sites. A granary will usually not do much, as the resources it strengthens aren't where Harald is. Lastly the Ski Infantry is so out of place, both visually ingame, but also in context. Danes haven't really any reason to have a specific Rifleman unit.

And then I found two mods, that fixes this Civ and makes it much more Viking-esque and generally a lot more fun.

UB - Smokehouse: This gives the Danes what they need, by moving granary resources to resources that Harald actually have in his lands. Turns out to be much needed for that overall feel of growing cities and not stagnating. Removes Ski Infantry at the same time, just perfect.

Unique unit - Longboat Gives the Vikings what they should have had from the start, the ocean going longboat. Makes perfect sense and completes the Civ as an early scouting Civ with later invasional abilities.

Try and play them with these mods and see if it doesn't just change the Danes from fun for a short while, to fun throughout the game.

Now I know that Firaxis often implements improvements, Mods have introduced. Like Thals mods I think he is called. So I'd like to suggest, that you simply change the Danes according to these mods. To show how much of a fast mover you are as a company, you could let this particular DLC be free and simply patch it in. Win for all, as a map with early Vikings just makes sense.

[istry555]

Mostly because he is often placed in tundra with difficult city sites.

That's just bad luck and not specific to the Danes. The only start bias the Danes have is to start along the ocean, so they are not predetermined to start on tundra any more than any other tile type. This also makes the Smokehouse change questionable, as they aren't more likely to have tundra resources over grassland resources. You also can't add a tundra start bias as the ocean one overrides it and they are in two mutually exclusive categories. Forcing the Smokehouse might even do more harm than good without the possibility of a tundra bias.

[SamBC]

Just 'cause Thal claims they got loads of ideas from him, doesn't mean they did...

[Hellogoodbye123]

I agree !! fix the danes! i always feel like playing something new, fresh ! but the vikings.. just dont got much..

[Hawk]

Ski infantry has been used by the Danes though, so it's not like it's not historically correct...Even if ski infantry have been used in quite a few countries.

[istry555]

There's also the point that they specifically chose to name the civ Denmark instead of the default "Viking Empire" that they've used in most of the past civ games. So, they may not be looking to make the civ specifically more "Viking-esque".

[Vihazur]

That's just bad luck and not specific to the Danes. The only start bias the Danes have is to start along the ocean, so they are not predetermined to start on tundra any more than any other tile type. This also makes the Smokehouse change questionable, as they aren't more likely to have tundra resources over grassland resources. You also can't add a tundra start bias as the ocean one overrides it and they are in two mutually exclusive categories. Forcing the Smokehouse might even do more harm than good without the possibility of a tundra bias.

I know this, and yet, I've had repeated terrible luck with Danish starting loc, also. I don't know why, but I've noticed the AI seems to do terrible as Danish, too. Maybe the ocean start bias has some sort of negative side effect? There's ocean all over the place, but maybe the system chooses it in some way we're not aware of.

e.g. Does it require lots of ocean? Does it require ocean that's far enough away from other start bias parameters? I have no idea, but something seems off to me, too.

[istry555]

I know this, and yet, I've had repeated terrible luck with Danish starting loc, also. I don't know why, but I've noticed the AI seems to do terrible as Danish, too. Maybe the ocean start bias has some sort of negative side effect? There's ocean all over the place, but maybe the system chooses it in some way we're not aware of.

e.g. Does it require lots of ocean? Does it require ocean that's far enough away from other start bias parameters? I have no idea, but something seems off to me, too.

I'm not entirely sure the exact parameters of the ocean start bias. I do know map size and type can effect it so if you play on smaller maps with less ocean there is the chance it can't actually place you in the bias so it just picks any start.

The following civs have the ocean start bias:

Denmark
England
Ottomans
Carthage
Spain
Polynesia

Technically, according to the XML, all of them should get the same basic type of start location. Are you only seeing this "bad luck" with Denmark or are all of these civs starting in bad locations in your games? If it's the latter, then maybe something is wrong with the bias. Otherwise, it might just really be consistent bad luck.

[Txurce]

Just 'cause Thal claims they got loads of ideas from him, doesn't mean they did...

Yes, it could be a patch-by-patch string of coincidences, topped by Thal joining the Frankenstein team and contributing some more. The odds are much higher that they took at least one idea from his mod than that they took none (or all) of the overlaps.

[SamBC]

Coincidences aren't hugely unlikely, what with the fact that the ideas aren't random, but logical. If people perceive the same problem, they will often perceive the same or similar solution.

[civdiss]

I have never actually played as the Danes because they don't seem like a fun civ to play with really, I could be wrong but that was my impression. Now if they had the OP's UB and UU I would definitely give them a try. Just a thought..

[King_Course]

Ski infantry has been used by the Danes though, so it's not like it's not historically correct...Even if ski infantry have been used in quite a few countries.

Ski infantry is really a Norwegian thing, if not just a Finnish thing at the bottomline. It was Finland who held back a World War 2 ready fighting Red Army, with Ski Infantry.





The Danes have no real reason to field modern unique military. If at all, it would be dog sleighs and not skis, as the Danish Navy, have presence in northern Greenland, and is the only military in the world who ride patrols using dogs.

Some in this thread raise the point, that devs maybe don't want to the Danes to be more Viking-esque. I think as it is now, they aren't Viking-esque at all. They need the Longboat, the ocean crossing trireme to work as a scout for later naval invasion. Seeing such a longboat in your game, and knowing the Harald AI would be prone to do Naval invasions, would add a whole new layer to the game.

[King_Course]

I know this, and yet, I've had repeated terrible luck with Danish starting loc, also. I don't know why, but I've noticed the AI seems to do terrible as Danish, too. Maybe the ocean start bias has some sort of negative side effect? There's ocean all over the place, but maybe the system chooses it in some way we're not aware of.

e.g. Does it require lots of ocean? Does it require ocean that's far enough away from other start bias parameters? I have no idea, but something seems off to me, too.

Part of my thread here, was because this problem of the Danes seem to be fixed with the smokehouse. I think Haralds start bias often puts him someplace where his cities can't grow, and a granary doesn't do much for him. It's a pitty he always end up as a backward redneck, with some shabby cities to show for himself.

Just to repeat myself, I really think these 2 mods are pretty vital for the Danes.

[VicRatlhead51]

Sometimes I think AI with an ocean start seem to do poorly because the AI are slower to improve ocean resources. I've seen Harald do well and do horribly. I think it depends on the personality flavor he gets in that particular game. If he gets that aggressive ICS personality and a neighbor he can dominate with berserkers he can be real scarey but if he has a strong neighbor or a less aggressive flavor he's a real flop. The berserkers are a great UU and the ski infantry can be nice on certain occasions but the UA should come with increased embarked movement (2 instead of 1) and increased pillaging gold to make it more useful and scarey. I do like the idea of a longboat UU but I honestly don't feel like there's any need for another UU trireme since two were added in the expansion. Also having a UU that promotes into another UU is extremely powerful in my opinion so I wouldn't be so quick to nix the ski infantry.

[jpbar81]

Coincidently, if anybody is interested, last night I uploaded a mod to the Steam Workshop which replaces the Ski Infantry with the Stave Church.

My Workshop

There's currently a catch, though, as it depends on my other little mod to function properly.

My love for the Vikings/Scandinavian-countries and abhorrence for the "in-game" Ski Infantry and wanting to modify it, was actually what got me started on this other mod and inspired it.

The one mod replaces the Monastery belief building with a new one, the Mandir, which is balanced alongside the other types. Monasteries were reverted back to a generic building again and become available at Theology; it adds another tier onto the religious group of buildings (Shrine and Temple). The only change is that it doesn't "require" Wine and Incense to be built, but it still provides bonuses if they exist (like a Granary).

The Gardens were moved to Philosophy (I suppose it fits the flavor: great people/greath "thinkers"), and the Temple and Oracle were moved a tech column earlier to a new tech, Mysticism, to separate it more from the Monastery. Some older civs had this tech as a prereq (or close to a prereq) for Philosophy, and the Temple and Oracle's flavor fits nicely with the tech, so it seems to work out well.

I used this because it didn't feel right having the Stave Church replace the Temple, I wanted more of a Medieval building. The Stave Church loses the Incense/Wine bonus, costs a bit less, adds +1 Happiness, and instead of a maintenance of 2 gold it gives +2 gold.

(Note: the Monastery and Stave Church are existing game art and not my own!)

Mandir:


Mysticism:


Monastery:


Stave Church:


Tech tree portion:


Let me know what you think! Feedback is welcome (balance suggestions, etc.).

[VicRatlhead51]

I might have to try that out jpbar81, it looks pretty cool. I never really liked taking the monastary belief anyway since its the only faith building that doesn't come with happiness so moving it back to being a normal production building is kind of interesting. Your mods have been some of my favorites. I really dig that reworked galley mod you did.

[Hawk]

(Snip...)

You have a point, and you are right - in fact if they add Finland or Norway I would hope they'd move the ski infantry to one of them instead. I don't want to discard the ski infantry all together...I don't see us getting another Scandinavian civ though, and we most likely won't be getting an additional fourth UX for each team, so we are limited with options.

[istry555]

We're not getting Norway or Finland. The UU is specifically called "Norwegian Sky Infantry" not just "Sky Infantry" so they very purposefully chose to make Denmark represent a combined Denmark-Norway. The problem I see here is a conflict of interest. The OP wants almost a pure Viking civ, but again they chose not to add specifically the "Viking Empire" into the game. There's really no point in thinking they are going to add those mods to the game, as it doesn't mesh with their original design intent for the civilization. Also, again, the Smokehouse would actually make Denmark worse (apart from aesthetic flavor) because Denmark does not have a tundra bias, so forcing them to use tundra resources instead of the more common resources utilized by the granary would hurt the civ.

[alcibiades]

The one mod replaces the Monastery belief building with a new one, the Mandir, which is balanced alongside the other types. Monasteries were reverted back to a generic building again and become available at Theology; it adds another tier onto the religious group of buildings (Shrine and Temple). The only change is that it doesn't "require" Wine and Incense to be built, but it still provides bonuses if they exist (like a Granary).

The Gardens were moved to Philosophy (I suppose it fits the flavor: great people/greath "thinkers"), and the Temple and Oracle were moved a tech column earlier to a new tech, Mysticism, to separate it more from the Monastery. Some older civs had this tech as a prereq (or close to a prereq) for Philosophy, and the Temple and Oracle's flavor fits nicely with the tech, so it seems to work out well.

I used this because it didn't feel right having the Stave Church replace the Temple, I wanted more of a Medieval building. The Stave Church loses the Incense/Wine bonus, costs a bit less, adds +1 Happiness, and instead of a maintenance of 2 gold it gives +2 gold.

I love these changes, I deffinitely feel we need a tech between Philosophy and Calendar (very empty tech tree up there, and a bit too easy to jump from Classical into Medieval with Great Library and go directly for National College). I'm neutral on the Stave Churge, I don't particularly mind the Ski Infantry as such, although (as a dane) I have very hard to relate to this unit, as there has afaik never been any relationship between Denmark and such a thing - but then again, Stave Churges are also Norwegian.