I plopped a city in a pretty worthless desert. It had nothing besides some much needed Iron, some Wine and an Oasis. So after I get the iron, I decide to build Petra. 100 turn wait. Okay, fine, its a new City anyway -- it'll go down with more citizens, especially if I set up some unemployment and buy out a workshop. Now that it's done, this is probably my most profitable city. I can only imagine what's gonna happen once I get Solar Panels. This Wonder is so bizarre and amazing, it's great.
Whats the better desert tile for petra, flat desert, or hills? Because you should get the same petra bonus on both, so a hill would offer extra production, right? Or am I missing something?
hills are probably better - desert hills have the exact same production as tundra, plains or grassland hills, so you get one extra production/food/gold on top of that. flat desert essentially becomes plains with an extra gold, so that's not too bad either, but i think hills are better.
EDIT: desert hills next to a river become 3f/3p/2g tiles (after civil service), so they are probably the best option if you have a choice.
Yea it's my favorite too. I miss desert options in the Civ4 FFH mod so this is a nice addition for me. You can really turn one desert city into a powerhouse, it's great.
Petra-bonus does not effect flood plains.
I don't think it holds anything against Neuschwanstein, my new favorite overpowered wonder.
The CN tower is pretty cool too, for cultural games at least, the broadcast towers take a lot to build and give a huge boost to culture. I keep getting beaten to Petra. It's getting kind of annoying. Arabia has been in 2/3 of my post G&K games and he built it in both of them. It does look cool though.
hehe yeah Neuschwanstein is awesome - i make it a top priority in my games, but that's mostly for "roleplaying" reasons - i'm from Bavaria and so i feel it's pretty much mandatory for me to get itOriginally Posted by alcibiades
I don't think it holds anything against Neuschwanstein, my new favorite overpowered wonder.
I really like Petra. It gives deserts a much needed buff.
If you combine it with Desert Folklore it's even sweeter.
Although personally my new favorite is Alhambra. This one is even harder to keep out of the hands of the AI but it lets your troops get to march much more quickly and it gives 20% boost to city culture.
Haha... no. If you are gunning for a cultural victory and don't have a broadcast tower in your city long before you tech to the CN tower then you are doing it wrong my friend. What the CN tower is good for is for large empires where you don't bother with the broadcast towers and have more important things to make in your cities... like troops.
I must play a different type of cultural game than you, I usually have twice as many puppets as I have cities and I can't control what the puppets build. Usually when I get closer to the end of the game I'll start annexing cities so I can build troops to defend against aggressive civs trying to stop me and the CN Tower bonus makes it a lot easier to feel good about adding a city here and there.
I won my last cultural game before I even teched there... last one was as Ethiopia, immortal, turn 334. Not my best, but the pace did get jiggered around a bit after the restructuring of the tech tree. I always save an engineer for the Sydney Opera House, which gives me my last policy, and 10 turns later I had the Utopia Project finished. I dunno about Deity but I doubt you can snap up the CN Tower before someone else does unless you're gunning for a tech victory, given that some AIs go straight for Globalization...
Generally you don't want to have many cities if you're going for a Culture victory, due to the incremental Culture cost per city for your next Policy.
Puppets don't affect that and they help you keep up with other civs in science and gold. I don't like to turtle and hope I'm going to stay safe until I can pull off the win. I'd rather keep things even by being a little aggressive early on. Later in the game when the larger AI starts to throw his weight around I'm usually not so far behind on tech. I guess I just got to the tower first because that's the part of the tree I was focusing on.
On this general topic, however, do other people than me feal that these new wonders are generally overpowered? Not necessarily Petra because it is so situational (and makes something decent of something horrible in one city, but no more than that), but Neuschwanstein and CN Tower both seems über powerful, and Leaning Tower of Pisa inherited a bonus from an old wonder that was considered overpowered. Haven't tried Hubble Space telescope yet, but it also seems pretty killer for science victory.
Well free great people have been nerfed, so Pisa isn't so bad. If you don't know, it ups the cost of your next great person as if you got them through normal means, so its really more of an early great person, not a free great person.
As for CN Tower, it comes so late in the game that I don't find its bonus that astonishingly good. If I got CN Tower anywhere near Radio, it would be too good, but since you don't get it until ... what? Telecommunications? It's not so bad.
Neuschwanstein is also pretty late in the game, but is also pretty niche. Its bonus isn't felt unless you're building castles, which I suppose at that stage of the game wouldn't be hard to pump out in your cities so I could see a case there. Too early to tell for me.
You still don't have to accumulate the requisite GP points. So they are free.
Yeah you're right, when they're so late in the game their apparent "overpoweredness" kind of goes away. Kind of like I always thought the Pentagon was kind of pointless since by the time I could build it my troops were usually at the end of their upgrade path.
The thing about Neuschwanstein as I see it is that it takes a building that is somewhat old by then - so you will have either build it or can do it relatively quickly - and that doesn't cost any ressources to maintain, which means that there is never really any downside to adding a Castle to a city, and then it adds this massive bonus (+1 Happiness, +2 Culture, +3 Gold) to this building in ALL towns, and then it furthermore adds double this bonus as an inherent bonus in the town it was build (on top of the Castle bonus in that town), just to make sure it's also really great for small Civs.
Petra kinda sucks since the huge shuffle map I'm playing has 6 desert squares and not all in the same location.
Half the CS want me to build it, but I don't have access to desert in any town.
So the wonder sucks because your current game has 6 desert tiles. That makes sense.
assume you were 1 point away from earning a great person. After getting the great person from the wonder, you now are more points away. That is the cost of the new great person.
Also, even when they were free... they still weren't free... that great person cost hammers... and in the old strategies, that great person often cost... a great person...
ultimately though, i think you are right... you will likely end the game having generated one more great person if you built the wonder than if you didin't
Is that wrong... or an exploit...
I thought IPS for culture victory was considered an overpowered exploit strategy. Reading this thread, it appears it had faded into lore.
Oh no, not IPS, just enough puppets to keep up with the more expansive civs in gold and science. I've found that if you go over a 2 puppets to 1 normal city ratio then happiness becomes a problem since puppets don't seem to build happiness buildings until your empire is actually unhappy. I think they made the building queue like that to prevent the really big crazy IPS strategies. I don't think puppets would have that characteristic of not affecting policy costs if they weren't meant to be used for culture victories. I usually tend to rest at 6-8 puppets and 4 of my own cities(standard size map). I'm not saying it's the best strategy or anything but it does take away that 'skin of my teeth' edge to getting a cultural victory. Obviously you can reach Utopia faster by not playing the early aggressive game and focusing more on culture but I just feel like I have more control of the game by getting some puppets early. Of course with the changes to Golden Ages and how they get culture now maybe even my little puppet kingdom idea isn't so great anymore since they'll slow down generation of golden ages.Is that wrong... or an exploit...
I thought IPS for culture victory was considered an overpowered exploit strategy. Reading this thread, it appears it had faded into lore.
Let's say GP1 costs 400 points and GP2 costs 600. In the normal course of events you'd need to generate 1000 points to get get both, even using your example if at the 399 point mark you pop GP1 via some other mean, you generate another 201 to get GP2 for 600 point total outlay. GP1 is free because you didn't pay the 400.assume you were 1 point away from earning a great person. After getting the great person from the wonder, you now are more points away. That is the cost of the new great person.
Also, even when they were free... they still weren't free... that great person cost hammers... and in the old strategies, that great person often cost... a great person...
ultimately though, i think you are right... you will likely end the game having generated one more great person if you built the wonder than if you didin't
Funny side effect of Petra is that it doesn't just buff the land, it also allows farms to be laid down in addition to the bonus hammer, apple, and gold. Effectively, the desert pretty much stops being a desert. Bee-ro-ken.
Last edited by steveg700; 06-28-2012 at 02:13 PM.
The logic is so simple, how can I disagree...
hehehe...
Using your example...
I got 1000 great person points in the game.
In the first scenario, I generated the 2 great persons myself
In your scenario, I wondered the first, and generated the second and got nothing for 400 gp points.
NOT FREE...
Schrodinger's Cat not just for physics any more....
Not true, because you still have 400 GP remaining and therefore are halfway onto your next GP at 800.The logic is so simple, how can I disagree...
hehehe...
Using your example...
I got 1000 great person points in the game.
In the first scenario, I generated the 2 great persons myself
In your scenario, I wondered the first, and generated the second and got nothing for 400 gp points.
NOT FREE...
Schrodinger's Cat not just for physics any more....
Game over maaaannnnnn...
How did you use those points again?
I think Zepthyr's argument that the great person is cheap, rather than free is the simplest. But Shrodinger's Cat argument works too.
The great person is both free and not free, we will not know until the game ends whether we got a free great person or a non-free great person. (either way, we DO know we got the Great Person sooner than we would have otherwise)
Petra is rather nice too because the bonus includes oasis, wheat on plain desert tiles and also Natural wonders (I had Mount Sinai get the bonus). It makes for a such a powerful city when you reach Fertizilier I often find myself using Liberty to get a great engineer to fast track petra in a newly found all desert city.
I've not tested that out but I also found out it makes Mountain tiles workable if they're classed as Desert.
See: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...18#post1608018
Ahahaha. I wonder if you could get the two effects to stack and build a farm on top if you're Carthage.
You know I wondered the same thing, but your worker would die after a single turn of building, but if you kept throwing them at it it might happen...
No. Each mountain tile costs 1 movement to traverse. After your first work turn you take 50 damage, step off and heal. It would take quite a while unless you're rotating in workers though :P
Wow the Carthage UA is better than I thought. I figured it would have the same movement penalty as Hills.
I would say that their UA is good, but only the Harbor part. The mountain crossing is very situational unless you played a map specifically tuned for mountain ranges. However, it does make for easier exploration. The game actually won't let you end your turn on a mountain tile unless you have nowhere else to go, or can take an action that ends your turn (such as an attack or work order). So if you're on a mountain tile with 1 MP left and there is an empty non-mountain tile adjacent to you that's not a closed border, you must step off before the game lets you end your turn unless you can attack or work. If you have 1 MP left, not on a mountain and there is a mountain next to you, you can't enter it until next turn.
In simple terms, you can't take attrition damage unless you simply can't help it. I believe the same goes for Missionaries in non-open borders, but it's much easier to walk in so deep that you can't get out. However Missionaries will in fact refuse to enter a closed border on their last MP.
Last edited by Magic_Hotdog; 06-28-2012 at 09:21 PM.
Holy smokes, I finally got Petra, what an amazing wonder if built in the right spot. You're totally right about how it can turn a junk city in the desert into a real powerhouse. I saw a nice desert area with some marble right near my capital and plopped my second city there then rushed currency to get it. Golden ages basically add gold to every tile since Petra added gold to the base yield. Two iron nodes popped up near the city as well so I'm thinking it may be my troop producer.
I read that as poop producer. Haha, oh wow. I gotta grow up.
It's always funnier when it involves the butt.
You can't spell funny ... without almost spelling fanny. Man, I gotta get off the internet today.
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