How do I counter a Iroquois Rush?

[Hellogoodbye123]

Well I will tell you what I tried doing.

My tech path was Mining -- Bronze -- Iron
My capital had 6 iron, got right on it(so that I could build my defense as soon as possible)
and settled second city on 2 irons
But before I could work on my iron, the enemy had 5 Mohawk by me, his capital was no more than 5-6 tiles away from mine, so it was pretty easy for him to rush me. when he was literally at my capital I got the iron, and i upgraded 4 of my jaguars into swordsmen, but now he had 7-8 Mohawks. Also Early in this game most tiles are forest so the Mohawks got the advantage since jaguars only work on jungles which there were none.

After a few turns, my capital had fallen.

Any Tips? for Iroquois that appear really close to you, and you pretty much know they will come after you?

P.S this is for online games

[Joketa]

In single player, on upper levels, if Hiawatha is your neighbor, you keep reloading until he is not.

In multi player, you must insist that no one can be the Iroquois and set the AI to Prince.

[Magic_Hotdog]

Rush him with your jaguars first? Archery first, of course.

[ShuShu62]

I just beat the iriqois off on Emperor...

The Keshiks helped... hehehe

[Shark2346]

Is Hiawatha some kind of cheat code then? He is always in my games SP and MP when I play with my friend. He is always a difficult opponent but I have only been beaten by him once because of playing my first game on King and being triple teamed from all sides.

[Hellogoodbye123]

for MP games !

I always seem to be literally 4-5 tiles away from them.. i have only seen iroquois like 5-6 times.. 100% of those times they appear next to me, and can be very frustrating :/ since there rush is pretty fast

[Joketa]

I don't play MP. If the Iroquois is a player, you should be able to handle them with some strategy. If it's AI, and the level is set really high, then I don't know what to do. On Immortal or Deity, if Hiawatha is my neighbor he will usually do a Mohawk rush at about turn 80. At that time, literally about 25 Mohawks and a few Catapults descend on my cities and wipe them out. As far as I can tell, there's nothing you can do about this. I don't know if even Maddjin knows how to stop it. If it's a player, you just need to prepare for a rush. Build walls, take Oligarchy, put archers in and behind your cities. Fortify melee units on hills that don't have forests on them. 7-8 Mohawks is much better than 25 in my opinion.

[Artifex]

Rush him with your jaguars first? Archery first, of course.

works for me

[civdiss]

No need to rush him, just make sure to settle your capital in a strategic location that can be defended (lose 1-2 turns if necessary in the beginning). Then build 4 archers, place one in the city and the others behind the city. Getting the policy with the 100% city attack helps as well. If there are marshes let them unimproved until later as they act like the great wall (even better they get -15% when standing there). You should be able to hold on playing as any civ with the above plan against any early rush on MP games. Of course you can improve on this by building more than 4 archers but this might hurt your economy, and probably you need about 10 Jaguars if you are going to attack with them later.

[VicRatlhead51]

This is one of the few occasions where I will indiscriminately chop forests down. It gives you a head start since you know he won't be doing any chopping and it makes the city easier to retake if it does fall to the Mohawks since they lose their forest bonus. Use the extra production to get walls up fast and hopefully a few archers to help kill off the Mohawks he sends. If you're Montezuma like the OP I'd say use that extra production to generate a jaguar rush first and beat him at his own game. Leaving marshes is a great idea since you can really have a killing field in them with the defense penalty.

[Hellogoodbye123]

I don't play MP. If the Iroquois is a player, you should be able to handle them with some strategy. If it's AI, and the level is set really high, then I don't know what to do. On Immortal or Deity, if Hiawatha is my neighbor he will usually do a Mohawk rush at about turn 80. At that time, literally about 25 Mohawks and a few Catapults descend on my cities and wipe them out. As far as I can tell, there's nothing you can do about this. I don't know if even Maddjin knows how to stop it. If it's a player, you just need to prepare for a rush. Build walls, take Oligarchy, put archers in and behind your cities. Fortify melee units on hills that don't have forests on them. 7-8 Mohawks is much better than 25 in my opinion.

turn 80? this was turn 30-35, its super quick, we both went mining, bronze and iron as quickly as possible
i made sure with my jags killing barbs (with honor opened up) that i got my settler and my worker(liberty) as fast. i got 4 jags out as quickly, settled on iron, and worked the 6 iron in my capital, as soon as this was all done, i rushed my 4 jags into swordsmen and his 5-7 mohawks where there already and ready for war, this happened almost instantly as any good rush should occur, there was no time to do anything else, i even had to beg the Egyptian player to give me 30g by telling him if Mohawks conquer me he will be next.
though he came with larger numbers and more on the way, and the field was on his side so his rush beat my defence :/

works for me

mm.... doesnt work work, or does it? mmmm

No need to rush him, just make sure to settle your capital in a strategic location that can be defended (lose 1-2 turns if necessary in the beginning). Then build 4 archers, place one in the city and the others behind the city. Getting the policy with the 100% city attack helps as well. If there are marshes let them unimproved until later as they act like the great wall (even better they get -15% when standing there). You should be able to hold on playing as any civ with the above plan against any early rush on MP games. Of course you can improve on this by building more than 4 archers but this might hurt your economy, and probably you need about 10 Jaguars if you are going to attack with them later.

thats true, there was no time to open that policy branch and go for that, this was like turn 30-35..

This is one of the few occasions where I will indiscriminately chop forests down. It gives you a head start since you know he won't be doing any chopping and it makes the city easier to retake if it does fall to the Mohawks since they lose their forest bonus. Use the extra production to get walls up fast and hopefully a few archers to help kill off the Mohawks he sends. If you're Montezuma like the OP I'd say use that extra production to generate a jaguar rush first and beat him at his own game. Leaving marshes is a great idea since you can really have a killing field in them with the defense penalty.

but walls requires mansory, and had i researched that i wouldnt of had my swordsmen, and i would have been in a worse situation!

[VicRatlhead51]

but walls requires mansory, and had i researched that i wouldnt of had my swordsmen, and i would have been in a worse situation!

With walls your city can take quite a few hits from the mohawks and they'll be forced to heal between hits or he'll lose all of his army to your archers. Let your city be the shield while you take potshots with archers. A city without walls just falls too fast to swordsmen to even hope to mount a reasonable defense with units especially since he'll have more than you. If you've got walls and 4 archers you should be able to fend off 4-5 mohawks while you research swordsmen. Let him lose his army against your city while you research swordsmen then when he's weakened from his failed attack you can head into his homeland with your new swordsmen and archers who will be veterans from the defense. Now he's screwed because he spent all that production on his rush and it failed because you anticipated it. Now against immortal or deity AI I don't think this is the answer but against some one starting on the same level as you it works pretty good. Just trying to rush swordsmen is like trying to beat him with a strategy he's already better than you at.

[Hellogoodbye123]

With walls your city can take quite a few hits from the mohawks and they'll be forced to heal between hits or he'll lose all of his army to your archers. Let your city be the shield while you take potshots with archers. A city without walls just falls too fast to swordsmen to even hope to mount a reasonable defense with units especially since he'll have more than you. If you've got walls and 4 archers you should be able to fend off 4-5 mohawks while you research swordsmen. Let him lose his army against your city while you research swordsmen then when he's weakened from his failed attack you can head into his homeland with your new swordsmen and archers who will be veterans from the defense. Now he's screwed because he spent all that production on his rush and it failed because you anticipated it. Now against immortal or deity AI I don't think this is the answer but against some one starting on the same level as you it works pretty good. Just trying to rush swordsmen is like trying to beat him with a strategy he's already better than you at.

ok about the walls, ive always put them in my border cities, and usually never have to deal with early rushes since i always try to have the huges military and ppl double think before coming to attack

BUT i can where the walls might make for a strong defence holding down while waiting for those swordsmen, ok i wil l try this, but i fail !! i will come here and yell at youuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!

[VicRatlhead51]

Lol ok. I totally agree with you and won't waste time building walls unless I'm worried about a rush, after all the best defense is a good offense right? It's just in this situation where you already know his strategy the best thing to do is muck it up with a good counter strategy. Early rushes are expensive gambles. If they fail you can fall behind real fast since you put everything into that rush and not so much into infrastructure. Let him run into your walls, it'll be a while before he gan get cats into play and you'll definitely have swordsmen by then. If you really want to screw with him and as long as you're not too overly attached to Monty, use Babylon, their UU and UB are so perfect for stopping early rushes and he'll never be able to catch up science-wise after his rush fails.

[Hellogoodbye123]

Lol ok. I totally agree with you and won't waste time building walls unless I'm worried about a rush, after all the best defense is a good offense right? It's just in this situation where you already know his strategy the best thing to do is muck it up with a good counter strategy. Early rushes are expensive gambles. If they fail you can fall behind real fast since you put everything into that rush and not so much into infrastructure. Let him run into your walls, it'll be a while before he gan get cats into play and you'll definitely have swordsmen by then. If you really want to screw with him and as long as you're not too overly attached to Monty, use Babylon, their UU and UB are so perfect for stopping early rushes and he'll never be able to catch up science-wise after his rush fails.

i have played this game 425 hours, 420 hours are devoted to aztecs and 5 to a combination of persia/egypt like 1 game each..
also, i bought all dlc except babylon lol

[MadDjinn]

the archer/wall/tradition opening combo is the best defense.

You're gambling on finding Iron AND having enough gold to upgrade in time if you try to match him in a rush to IW. That's not good.

The side benefit to a tradition only start is that you can grab landed elite and gain more food in your city, meaning faster growth = faster tech.

So go Archery/Mining/Masonry, then over to Bronze/IW. Or just mess with him and grab the great wall. Those mohawks move very slowly when they can't rush into your big culture borders as easily. Then take your time to tech to Steel and upgrade a mass Jag army to Longswords, then go visit him.

Just remember not to expand in his direction before you're ready.

[Hellogoodbye123]

is it really the best?

WATCH THIS MIGHT SOUND CRAZY...

i was aztec, french aside me.. after losing my settler, 2 warriors to barbarians, and my worker... THE GAME WAS the worse i have ever encountered, never ever has ever happened to me... !! i keep those barbs on check, with the exception of this game

ANYWAYS.... french sees im building a cheap swordsmen army.. like it was so late.. so unplanned..
he has 8 archers, he has the great wall... and somehow .. i kill him.... that didnt seem very powerful, when i could take him out..
he seemed like a good player... his borders where extended since he is french, so getting into his capital wasnt that easy, and with his archers in every single tile...

so now imagine had everything gone well, me not losing my stuff, had i not rushed a jaguar with my gold to gain momentum i could of used it on more swordsmen, my attack could have been 10-15 turns earlier.. me walking over for my settler with my jags, and my jags losing did set me back..

so .. had everything gone so much better, he would have lost even faster !

the wall defence might be good, but not always ! but coming from you maddjin it does say a lot lol

[MadDjinn]

sounds like you played a noob.

archers need good positioning, they can't just be 'out there'. Especially if you have the great wall and enough land cultured. There should have been plenty of 'free shots' on your units without you being able to attack back.

There should have been 4-5 shots on any unit getting close to his capital - effectively preventing you from getting more than 1-2 units beside the city.

besides, in MP, the wall is more for annoyance than anything else.

[Hellogoodbye123]

sounds like you played a noob.

archers need good positioning, they can't just be 'out there'. Especially if you have the great wall and enough land cultured. There should have been plenty of 'free shots' on your units without you being able to attack back.

There should have been 4-5 shots on any unit getting close to his capital - effectively preventing you from getting more than 1-2 units beside the city.

besides, in MP, the wall is more for annoyance than anything else.

that could be it, specially since he settled his second city like 4 tiles away so it was really easy to obtain, i was gonna stop there, but my senses were tingling, and i saw france make another city, so i knew he was gonna be a problem in the future, as i come in. he had so many archers they are in the borders, so when the turn comes, i smash through 6, with my swordmen, and half his archers gone!

how is it good to attack ppl with great wall?
i usually bring large numbers(probably double or even reaching tripple force), with continuous spawn of waves

[VicRatlhead51]

Did his city have a lot of hills, forest or jungle? because that would really screw any advantage he got from the GW plus gave your units some nice defense from his arrows.

[MadDjinn]

that could be it, specially since he settled his second city like 4 tiles away so it was really easy to obtain, i was gonna stop there, but my senses were tingling, and i saw france make another city, so i knew he was gonna be a problem in the future, as i come in. he had so many archers they are in the borders, so when the turn comes, i smash through 6, with my swordmen, and half his archers gone!

how is it good to attack ppl with great wall?
i usually bring large numbers(probably double or even reaching tripple force), with continuous spawn of waves

well, there you go. If his archers were all on the border where you could actually attack them from outside of his culture area, then he wasn't preparing properly.

Knights/horsemen/etc tend to be useful for attacking into a Great Wall area, as they'll still be able to move 2 tiles each.

Otherwise... lots and lots of units with a slow push to surround their GW city via killing their units around it without being close enough to get attacked by the city. My Spanish LP shows that part (though I was able to use a lake to get close) vs. the French.

[Hellogoodbye123]

Did his city have a lot of hills, forest or jungle? because that would really screw any advantage he got from the GW plus gave your units some nice defense from his arrows.

his city was all grassland and he was cornered to the ocean, he couldnt really place archers behind paris

well, there you go. If his archers were all on the border where you could actually attack them from outside of his culture area, then he wasn't preparing properly.

Knights/horsemen/etc tend to be useful for attacking into a Great Wall area, as they'll still be able to move 2 tiles each.

Otherwise... lots and lots of units with a slow push to surround their GW city via killing their units around it without being close enough to get attacked by the city. My Spanish LP shows that part (though I was able to use a lake to get close) vs. the French.

dont knights/horsemen get penalty against attacking cities?
and how does the great wall exactly work again? reduces to 1 movement? or reduces 1 movement?

[MadDjinn]

dont knights/horsemen get penalty against attacking cities?
and how does the great wall exactly work again? reduces to 1 movement? or reduces 1 movement?

yeah, mounted units have issues vs. cities, but you use them to kill the archers/units by the city while slow walking the siege+melee units into range.

GW - it's basically 2x MP cost/tile. Or +1 MP/tile... can't quite remember.

[civdiss]

+1 MP/tile... can't quite remember.

+1 MP/tile because if you go on a hill you lose 3 points if I remember correctly.

[Artifex]

dont knights/horsemen get penalty against attacking cities?

Keep in mind, that penalty is significantly less important with a great general nearby. The positives cancel the negatives, which is much more significant mathematically than what the GG does for troops that are not under a penalty.

I wish they were applied in separate calculations, it would make for more rigorous balance, but they are not.

[MadDjinn]

+1 MP/tile because if you go on a hill you lose 3 points if I remember correctly.

thanks, it's been soo long...

[Hellogoodbye123]

+1 MP/tile because if you go on a hill you lose 3 points if I remember correctly.

-I'll keep that in mind! never knew, always thought ALL units went down to 1 space.

Keep in mind, that penalty is significantly less important with a great general nearby. The positives cancel the negatives, which is much more significant mathematically than what the GG does for troops that are not under a penalty.

I wish they were applied in separate calculations, it would make for more rigorous balance, but they are not.

oh thats true !

thanks, it's been soo long...

how long?