IMO,his suggestion was beyond bad because of 3 reasons:Originally Posted by SlickSlicer
1) It isn't a truly unique ability(It's entirely copied from the India's UA with the removing of the double unhapiness per city);
2)It doesn't have any kind of connection with the "Szlachta" system;
3) It is deeply broken and horribly OVEROVEROVERpowered;
With suggestions like this,I'd rather prefer not to see Poland in Civ5 . If you want some kind of happiness system,take India and forget Poland .
I have to agree with arguments (so far) against Poland in CIV V. Most of the proposals here either describe something that is already covered in the game (or will be with K&G) or is unplayable and no fun. Its a game and it follows a certain rule: whatever added must be fun, unique, balanced. Up until now Poland does not cover those. As I see it you guys have to try harder and become creative to actually achieve anything. I guess that applies to everybody who wants to add a civ to a game.
All in all its a game and I'm not sure if ppl play certain civ just because its the country they live in or they like but because they favor the play style the civ offers or has certain bonuses it provides. Therefor if you really want to insist on Poland getting in, come up with something creative.
Let me put something quickly together from what I know about Poland.
UA: "Sarmatism" - every specialist produces 2 points more towards a great person.
UB: "Cloth hall" - replaces mint. A city produces 2 extra gold and 2 culture for any type of luxury resource nearby.
UU: "SilentDark" - replaces paratrooper. Add evasion bonus for the unit as well as adjust strength and drop range.
Poland has plenty of interesting military formations/units to choose from, it has fought tons of wars. I'm not sure why people keep insisting on hussar and/or partisan (guerrilla). The funny named paratroopers guys were actually highly-trained people that tried to get back to their country during WW2. I kinda like the concept in itself, its different and unique. A fact that is worth noticing is that they at some point got so experienced with dropping people onto former polish territory that they become flawless in it.
I'm not saying my examples are "the best". Perhaps they are quite poor, I have not thought about it a lot but I its at least different from what other civs have to offer. Also, I think these might actually have a "polish feeling" instead of whining all over how poor/how big the country was.
I might just look stupid here by posting something that isn't thought-through well but I really would like to have these civs conversations have a different spin. If that keeps going like that Poland will be the most hated country around. And thats just silly.
Last edited by leliel; 06-06-2012 at 09:59 AM.
This actually sounds really good for being something you came up with on the fly. Double GP points from specialists may be slightly OP though since it's basically Babylon's UA for all GAs instead of just scientists. Maybe GPs cost 25% less to produce than normal might be slightly more balanced? Interesting having a UU paratrooper but it comes so late it may not have much impact on the game unfortunately, although I've always thought late UUs should be balanced by a strong UA. Giving marines or infantry the ability to paradropwith the discovery of flight might be a pretty cool option. I think people keep referring to Hussars because they're closer chronologically to when Poland could have been considered in its golden age. That Cloth Hall sounds like an interesting UB since it'd have a huge impact on the empire's gold production especially because you'd basically be able to build mints in any city instead of just ones with gold and silver.
Normally,each GP gives +2 GPP in game . This is like increasing the GP generation by +60%,if there's no World wonder GPP . This is even more Overpowered than other suggestions and even more boring .
Yeah, forgot about poor Babylon. I do not have that DLC so thats the reason. When comparing those two it sounds incredibly overpowered. Initially I thought to come up with some specialists upgrade for the civ. Specialists, as a concept, are nice but I find it lack something. Impact maybe? If there are spare citizens they end up as specialist, else rarely. Having those a little boosted could create more interesting choices throughout the game. At first I wanted to just add +1 of whatever they provide (hammer, culture, gold), then I doubted that thinking. Idea of increasing great people generation seemed better but then Babylon happened. Well. Was thrown off the top of my head so I did not expect that to immediately become acceptable UA. I just tried to open up some more ideas and change a perspective a little.
Very constructive comment. I think you, sir, are boring.
Some comments:
UU: "SilentDark" -> slientdark was more a single super agent/spy than a big paratroops company. Not very good idea.
UB: "Cloth hall" -> is acceptable, not very polish because every european city has Cloth hall but ok.
UA: "Sarmatism" -> is acceptable but to very unique
My proposition
UA: "Noble Host" (in polish Pospolite Ruszenie).
Historical background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pospolite_ruszenie
Description:
Noble Host is a name for the mobilisation of armed forces during the period of the Kingdom of Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The tradition of wartime mobilisation of part of the population existed from before the 13th century to the 19th century. In the later era, pospolite ruszenie units were formed from the szlachta (Polish "nobility"). The pospolite ruszenie was eventually outclassed by professional forces.
Game function: After discovery Theology Poland get one free Partisan Unit near every city that was captured by enemy civ. (e.g. 1 unit in every 5 turn after capturing). Pratisan could be modded e.g spearman or pikeman unit.
UB: Brewery: can be build only in city with Wheat and produce Beer - new unique lux. No historical background. Req tech: wheel. Some art and descriptions:
http://patto1ro.home.xs4all.nl/polbrew.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Poland
UU: Polish Scythemen Infantry (Kosynierzy in polish): replecment for Pikeman, cheaper, -1 combat power but can make ambushes in forest (invisible when fortified in forest and get extra bonuses from fortification)
Historical background:
Kosynierzy or Scythemen are the irregular forces named by their primary weapon - war scythe.First time when they can show deadly scythe power was the Battle of Racławice- 4 April ,1794 at the time of Kościuszko Uprising.Polish leader, Tadeusz Kościuszko was the hero of country who served in US army.At the battlefield he tell soldiers to charge russian cannons, but they knew how dangerous they are and how many of them can die.In act of desperation general send the 320 scythemens to attack the artillery.This move was the start of the slaughter, because polish forces smashed enemy.In other battles these armies wasnt so lucky anymore, and Russians were simply kiling them.Many commanders and soldiers like Emilia Plater,,Wojciech Bartos Glowacki,Stanisław Świstacki were fighting in that kind of regiments.Chrystian Piotr Aigner wrote a book, ''Short learn about scythes and pikes''.The most importnant thing after great victory at Racławice was hope for better Poland and sovereignty.
Picture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=AI93jWfjVUU
Last edited by Nefliqus; 06-06-2012 at 12:06 PM.
Really with, what is it now, 34 civs I think, it will be harder and harder to come up with something totally unique that doesn't have anything to do with another civs unique. Just saying OP and boring without any constructive criticism or an alternative idea is totally useless.
Dude, there are lots of reasons why people don't like these kinds of ideas. This doesn't help Poland win the game. It just helps it recover somewhat if it's losing. Nobody will want to fail on purpose just to take advantage of their UA.Poland get one free Partisan Unit near every city that was captured by enemy civ. (e.g. 1 unit in every 5 turn after capturing). Pratisan could be modded e.g spearman or pikeman unit.
For winged hussars, I think my main idea was pretty unique.
Instead of the extra promotion, maybe they could get an extra movement point to fully take advantage of this unique power. As far as I know, no other civ in the game has something similar with MP->attack power. It makes sense for a cavalry unit due to the "shock" nature of a cavalry charge.Winged Hussar: Cavalry replacement. When spawned they begin with an extra promotion of the player's choosing (this stacks with the promotions you get from barracks and the like). Receives a combat bonus depending on how many movement points are left over when they launch their attack (the more movement points they have left over, the stronger the bonus is). The latter bonus carries over even when the winged hussar goes obsolete.
If they don't want to use Hussar because of Austria (too bad because winged hussars look badass), they could take the same idea and apply it to Uhlans, perhaps making them a lancer replacement instead. In addition, instead of giving the extra movement to the Uhlans (since Uhlans already have more MP than cavalry from what I recall), they could negate the defensive penalty that lancers have. So in short, their powers could be a combat bonus when attacking with leftover movement points and no lancer defense penalty. That'd be a pretty damn good UU in my opinion, and it's balanced a bit by the fact that it comes relatively late in the game. To summarize:
Aside from my original idea for Tabor, I have another idea as well. They could make them into military units that cannot attack or do damage, but instead have a large amount of strength. What's the point of this you ask? They could be large meatshields, defensive screens of sorts, which as I understand, laagers and tabors were occasionally used as. This could allow units in the back to more easily bombard enemies. To give them a further advantage as a vanguard meatshield, they could have a sentry bonus as well. In addition, since they're horsedrawn wagons, they would have a fair amount of MP as well.Uhlan: Replaces Lancer. 22 strength. It has no penalty on defense and receives a 10% combat bonus for each movement point it has left over when it launches its attack, for a maximum of a 30% bonus if it begins its attack right next to an enemy.
Last edited by SlickSlicer; 06-06-2012 at 01:36 PM.
I don't think we need anymore Great Person UAs either. The Maya UA cover that in G/K.
yeah, I second that.
Also the brewery unique, it's a nice idea but when I think of beer I don't think of Poland first. I'd say Germany (bock, doppelbock, helles, Kolsh, dortmunder, hefeweizen, dunkel, Oktoberfest or marzen), Great Britain (porter, brown, stout, barleywine, mild, pale ale, india pale ale, irish red, russian imperial stout), Belgium (grand cru, wit, lambic, tripel, dubbel, abbey ale, saison, bier de garde, golden strong ale, flanders red), the Czech Republic (pilsener) and in the last few decades the US (american wheat, west coast ipa, cascadian dark ale) are all a little more famed for innovation and creating styles than Poland. I know there are some good lagers and baltic porters in Poland but they're just not exactly world famous. Unless when you're talking about breweries you mean more than just beer. Is there maybe a certain type of drinking hall that could take the place of the brewery?
I do have to add something I didn't think of before too, although Europe is heavily represented in game eastern Europe isn't. The Slavic people are really only represented by Russia. It's just something that makes Poland different from the other European civs.
Last edited by VicRatlhead51; 06-06-2012 at 02:22 PM.
Brewery is just a idea without historical background.
UA: "Noble Host" version2: Free Scythemen Infantry unit near polish capital if Poland is at war with civ that has military 2x stronger than Poland.
I dont understand the point/main idea to add Tabor unit.
Unique Ability: Poland is not yet lost: Extra Faith for every unit destroyed in your borders. +10% bonus to building military units when at war. The bonus increases the closer units get to your capital.
Unique Unit: Ulan Cavalry. Replaces Cavalry. Cost 290. Movement 4, not 3. Strength 23, not 25. +25% on attack. No penalty vs other mounted units.
Unique Building: Folwark: Replaces Granary: +2 gold from wheat +3 food instead of +1.
Folwark is good one.
Again, that idea is bollocks. A military 2 times mine? What the hell is a unit of peasants going to do to stop them? The Scythemen were ineffective peasants, that's it. Brave though they were, don't put them ahead of the Uhlans, PHA, or Winged Hussars. Besides, the idea of scythemen isn't THAT unique. Using Scythes as weapons was common in Eastern Europe since the Thracians. Plus, they only fought during the uprisings with the exception of one unit during the Summer invasion.
Well,Babylon already has a GS bonus(+50%),which is one of the strongest UA in the game . Now increases this bonus to +60% and applies that to every GP earned through specialists . I don't even need to mention why such combination would turn out to be Overpowered,do I? Also,what would be the point of Playing with Babylon if UA of Poland gives more bonus,applies to every GP and has no drawbacks?
... yes you are right but such unit is more unique in civ5 than next horse unit. Historicaly it was cheap peasants militia
Sounds oddly similar to minutemen to me and they made the game.
I do have to say though I think I like Pacha's idea for a UA the most so far.
I took my time to somewhat read through polish threads here. I really needed a beer there. Afterwards I took some time to read a bit of a history. Lets give it another try now.
Thats a fair enough statement. Also diplomatic relations and warmongering around Europe covered. Not much left though.
UA: "Golden liberty" - conquered cities retain their cultural buildings. Social policy cost increased by 15%.
UB: "Seym" - replaces courthouse; half the build time, generates 1 culture, half the maintenance cost.
UB: "Cloth hall" - replaces mint; a city produces 2 extra gold, 1 culture and 1 faith per available luxury resource
All numbers and values are subject of change. I have not done the math there to calculate any sensible balance.
Now, I guess I have to "defend" this against "not polish enough" and "not cool enough" parties
As for a "cloth hall", yeah its just an ordinary, old version of the supermarket but(!), location of Poland (right in the middle of Europe where all the trade routes were crossing, also with an access to the sea - very important trade route) made it special. The "anarchy" of the times was an ideal ground for trade bringing in the baggage of various cultural and religious exchange that were not allowed anywhere else.
I admit its hard to place Poland anywhere and not overwlap existing stuff. Presented setup should provide a unique play style not available in Civ yet. Even though the UA might seem like a big pain, if used right in conjunction with "seym" should provide some interesting opportunities. To make sure that civ is not one-directional the cloth-hall is quite powerful to counter UA vice.
Of course there is an alternative. We could remove a penalty to social policy from UA and weaken the unique buildings. All up to the game balance and math. I'm quite sure its not even possible to balance it out at the moment because nobody knows what will be presented in the expansion. But I believe its a good base to start on. If it ends up in a game under a different civ name I would not mind
I agree that Folwark is a great idea. My tabor idea wasn't so good, but I think my idea for Uhlans/Winged Hussars is pretty decent. I thought the Polish only had one Sejm. I do like the idea of the paratroopers as well.
At the time it was called "Sejmik" (a small Seym), references to this name are all over the internet. I guess that should translate to Seymik then (corret name is "comitia minora"). It was local version of goverment. Upperclass gathered to vote on any change to happen or issue new laws, locally. Kinda makes sense to replace the courthouse then.
Nice combo.I took my time to somewhat read through polish threads here. I really needed a beer there. Afterwards I took some time to read a bit of a history. Lets give it another try now.
Thats a fair enough statement. Also diplomatic relations and warmongering around Europe covered. Not much left though.
UA: "Golden liberty" - conquered cities retain their cultural buildings. Social policy cost increased by 15%.
UB: "Seym" - replaces courthouse; half the build time, generates 1 culture, half the maintenance cost.
UB: "Cloth hall" - replaces mint; a city produces 2 extra gold, 1 culture and 1 faith per available luxury resource
All numbers and values are subject of change. I have not done the math there to calculate any sensible balance.
Now, I guess I have to "defend" this against "not polish enough" and "not cool enough" parties
As for a "cloth hall", yeah its just an ordinary, old version of the supermarket but(!), location of Poland (right in the middle of Europe where all the trade routes were crossing, also with an access to the sea - very important trade route) made it special. The "anarchy" of the times was an ideal ground for trade bringing in the baggage of various cultural and religious exchange that were not allowed anywhere else.
I admit its hard to place Poland anywhere and not overwlap existing stuff. Presented setup should provide a unique play style not available in Civ yet. Even though the UA might seem like a big pain, if used right in conjunction with "seym" should provide some interesting opportunities. To make sure that civ is not one-directional the cloth-hall is quite powerful to counter UA vice.
but name for Cloth hall is not good. Maybe sth like "House of the Order", connection of religion, culture and commerce. In the past trade routes were very often controlled by monks...
It all fine with me. I have no clue about that to be honest. You can come up with polish name of that as well if that fits the game better.
I seriously dig that UA where cultural buildings stay intact. That would make for a really unique game since it would allow for an offensive cultural victory whereas in the current game cultural VCs are all about turtling in your small empire, maybe taking a few puppets but mainly turtling.
After thinking sometime,I've came up with an UA for Poland that reflects the "Szlachta" system,which they said it is a unique thing from Poland:
UA: "Szlachta" -Can "covert" Great People points from specialists into Golden Age points(Great General/Admiral points are not included) . When "Converting" GP points into GA points,you don't receive GP points as long as you convert it;
This UA creates a link between the Golden ages of Poland with the "Szlachta" system . Such UA can be very versatible for almost any gameplay style . Since Great generals(and possibly most of the Great Persons as well) no longer have the ability to start a Golden age,this UA would make Poland compete with India to see who can trigger more Golden ages . What do you guys think of this suggestion?
Last edited by luciferkid; 06-06-2012 at 09:44 PM.
It's ok if you want to convert artist or merchant points into golden ages I guess, but a lot of the time I feel like great people are better than golden ages anyways (even gms and gas). So I'm not sure I like it too much to be honest. It's unique but not very strong imo.
Thank you for all those good ideas. I think that Firaxis and modders has now good vision how they can implement Poland as a new civ.
Now all they need is the desire............hehehehe
buuuhahahahaha
hehehehe pls stop heheheheh You are so funy buuhahaha You are killing me, pls stop hehehehehe
haha ....
Glad I could entertainbuuu
Poland wouldnt just feel like poland without its winged hussars, i would be like england without longbowmen or japan without its samurais
Can we make this the last Poland thread, by the way? Firaxis is going to get the idea people want them in, when it's only a handful of the same people.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this!
Considering how many people went angry with the amount of European Civs in G&K(me included),I wouldn't be impressed if they decided to release Poland in a 2nd expansion or in one of the last dlc of Civ5 .
In that case,another suggestion is,instead losing all the Great people points when converting,it just loses +1 GPP instead all the +3 GPP(it would be like reducing the generation of GPP by specialists in 33%) . With some tweaks on the conversion(like increasing the Golden age points from the conversion to a reasonable amount),it might become more powerful . What do you think about it?
13/34 isn't really all that bad of a ratio for European civs. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about especially when you consider how many global superpowers have existed in Europe throughout history.
I guess the "fuss" is specifically about G&K, or was aggravated by it. Some people don't think a 6/9 ratio is a nice thing.
The "fuss" isn't about the global powers, as you don't see anyone complaining about Rome, England or Russia (and Portugal, arguably the only global power left, seems to be very popular). But people complain about Austria and Sweden, and would certainly complain about Poland, Hungary, Serbia, Italy, HRE etc. The fact that Europe had a lot of global powers won't change that, not for those who don't share an Eurocentric point of view.
Because, compare Europe to Africa, Asia, and the Americas. Europe has more civs than any other continent even though Europe is the smallest.
Why the hell did people want Serbia anyway?
I personally feel like Italy and HRE are redundant. The others are all acceptable to me so long as they can come up with something unique for them.
Why is Italy redundant? I understand HRE, but Italy isn't. Perhaps they could do Venice or something to get around the city names.I would like it, in fact... Venice +50 Civilizations.
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