Unconfirmed plot information?

[Ghanima]

Today an anonymous IP added some unconfirmed BioShock Infinite plot information to Wikipedia and the BioShock Wiki.

Check it out:

• BioShock Infinite article history on Wikipedia
• Columbia article history on the BioShock Wiki
• Booker DeWitt article history on the BioShock Wiki

As far as I know, this information has never been mentioned in interviews, but it fits the known facts well enough to be plausible, so I am curious about where it came from. What do you think?

1. Is it possible that this information is true?
2. Even if it isn't true, do you have any ideas about where the anon might have gotten the info?

[Codex]

Personally I like the ideas of what the anon posted, however without there being any references it cannot, should not be treated as canon until we a)see it in the game or b) have it confirmed by a dev. As someone who likes to focus on story details prior to release, these additions almost seem like they are (well thought out) wishful thinking.

But, I could be wrong. Very wrong. Maybe a dev is the one who posted it?

[losstarot]

Anyways if they remove it, people will think it was legit info while if it stays this way, this will mislead readers?

[MegaScience]

Without proof, I would say this is just a student who recently learned history from that era and decided to compose the ideas into something plausible without proof.

[Ghanima]

I agree with Codex; this is most likely fanon, but it is interesting.

I just discovered something else the IP tried to do on the BioShock Wiki:

It tried to leave a message on its own userpage (User:70.110.22.171), but people who aren't logged into an account aren't allowed to edit userpages, so the AbuseFilter stopped it. However, I checked the logs from the filter and saw this:

First attempt to leave a message:

Second attempt:

Of course we have no way to know whether "Ananymous" was telling the truth. On a side note, most IP address lookup websites say this IP comes from somewhere near Washington DC.

[Codex]

"Personal friend of the designers" *eyeroll*

Well, fine - I've got nothing to say about it. However, if it is infomation from within the game that hasn't been released to the public yet I'm going to have to put my foot down and call it a leak. I'm going to talk to the admins about this, but it may be possible that this thread is getting shut down (sorry Gardimuir!)

[Ghanima]

No problem. I understand.

[watchman]

Without proof, I would say this is just a student who recently learned history from that era and decided to compose the ideas into something plausible without proof.

A student who still needs to get the concept of dates a bit more clear -- from the blue part --- threaten Bookers brother who was handicapped in the Civil war (50 years earlier making that brother something like 70 years old). Spanish American War would be a bit better (maybe the student hasnt gotten to that chapter yet...)

Also the strikebreaker thing isnt likely as far as 'most feared' as its was more small armies on either side and one man in a riot melee with clubs just cant be outstanding when 3 other men with clubs can beat him senseless no matter how strong/fast he is.
Somehow thinks that strike battles were like the 'Gunfight at the OK Coral' ???

"he cleared out a street full of striking ironworkers by simply walking into the road" is ludicrous for anyone who knows what those strikes and strikebreaking actions were like. More likely tried that and was brained by a brick thus leading to the hallucination that is Columbia (drinking a little too much of some bad patent medicine)...

" small run-down casino in a Las Vegas-style town somewhere in the American Midwest" .... more lack of understanding/knowledge - you cant even stitch stuff like this together from the hollyswood rubbish.

[9ice]

Unless Levine says it, I don't buy it.

[Evans0305]

Clearly, this user is just boasting they "know" the artists as an excuse to add speculation on Wikis, especially when before, they claimed to be some underground group.

On a related note, I play Croquet with Peter Molyneux, and it gives me the excuse to say the next Fable game will enable 3D and Smell-O-Vison.

[Adam Addict L]

A student who still needs to get the concept of dates a bit more clear -- from the blue part --- threaten Bookers brother who was handicapped in the Civil war (50 years earlier making that brother something like 70 years old). Spanish American War would be a bit better (maybe the student hasnt gotten to that chapter yet...)

Also the strikebreaker thing isnt likely as far as 'most feared' as its was more small armies on either side and one man in a riot melee with clubs just cant be outstanding when 3 other men with clubs can beat him senseless no matter how strong/fast he is.
Somehow thinks that strike battles were like the 'Gunfight at the OK Coral' ???

"he cleared out a street full of striking ironworkers by simply walking into the road" is ludicrous for anyone who knows what those strikes and strikebreaking actions were like. More likely tried that and was brained by a brick thus leading to the hallucination that is Columbia (drinking a little too much of some bad patent medicine)...

" small run-down casino in a Las Vegas-style town somewhere in the American Midwest" .... more lack of understanding/knowledge - you cant even stitch stuff like this together from the hollyswood rubbish.

just posting here to say....other than "gunfight at the OK Corral"....I have NO idea what you are talking about with that "strikebreaker" stuff

[Ghanima]

A student who still needs to get the concept of dates a bit more clear -- from the blue part --- threaten Bookers brother who was handicapped in the Civil war (50 years earlier making that brother something like 70 years old). Spanish American War would be a bit better (maybe the student hasnt gotten to that chapter yet...)

Also the strikebreaker thing isnt likely as far as 'most feared' as its was more small armies on either side and one man in a riot melee with clubs just cant be outstanding when 3 other men with clubs can beat him senseless no matter how strong/fast he is.
Somehow thinks that strike battles were like the 'Gunfight at the OK Coral' ???

"he cleared out a street full of striking ironworkers by simply walking into the road" is ludicrous for anyone who knows what those strikes and strikebreaking actions were like. More likely tried that and was brained by a brick thus leading to the hallucination that is Columbia (drinking a little too much of some bad patent medicine)...

" small run-down casino in a Las Vegas-style town somewhere in the American Midwest" .... more lack of understanding/knowledge - you cant even stitch stuff like this together from the hollyswood rubbish.

You make some great points. There's also the fact that "Ananymous" claims on Wikipedia that Booker was hired in a "small run-down casino in a Las Vegas-style town somewhere in the American Midwest", but in the Booker DeWitt article he claims it was in "a casino in San Francisco."

Adam Addict L, check out this page on Wikipedia for more info about the Pinkerton Agency involved in breaking up labor strikes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Strike

[watchman]

You make some great points. There's also the fact that "Ananymous" claims on Wikipedia that Booker was hired in a "small run-down casino in a Las Vegas-style town somewhere in the American Midwest", but in the Booker DeWitt article he claims it was in "a casino in San Francisco."

Adam Addict L, check out this page on Wikipedia for more info about the Pinkerton Agency involved in breaking up labor strikes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Strike

San Francisco would be the place for gambling houses (I dont think 'casino' was used in America yet in any case).
Midwest little towns just werent the environment for such places and it would likely be a 'road house' away from the proper towns. Mining boomtowns would be a place to find run-down gambling joints, but there was nothing 'Las Vegas style at the time in America - not even Atlantic City that headed in that direction in the 20s.

[japester]

I honestly have to wonder about someone who praises the folks making the game in the same breath that he unashamedly undermines them by claiming to leak info. That is a serious mental disconnect right there.

Stuff like this is a non-event in my book. Until the game comes out, anything in the wiki not confirmed by an Irrational Games press release is hearsay. Period. Consider it fan-fic and use it for discussion fodder, but there's no point in debating the truthfulness of it. If it's a legit leak, it's not like IG is going to legitimize it by confirming it. If it's bogus, they are better off ignoring it.

IG kept us all in the dark for 3 years or so. That's quite an accomplishment in this industry. Their team doesn't strike me as the type to trip up this close to the finish line.

[ragingmudcrab]

Stuff like this is a non-event in my book. Until the game comes out, anything in the wiki not confirmed by an Irrational Games press release is hearsay. Period.

This right here.

[watchman]

I honestly have to wonder about someone who praises the folks making the game in the same breath that he unashamedly undermines them by claiming to leak info. That is a serious mental disconnect right there.

Stuff like this is a non-event in my book. Until the game comes out, anything in the wiki not confirmed by an Irrational Games press release is hearsay. Period. Consider it fan-fic and use it for discussion fodder, but there's no point in debating the truthfulness of it. If it's a legit leak, it's not like IG is going to legitimize it by confirming it. If it's bogus, they are better off ignoring it.

IG kept us all in the dark for 3 years or so. That's quite an accomplishment in this industry. Their team doesn't strike me as the type to trip up this close to the finish line.

Kept us in the dark ?? With all the trailers and 'official' discussions?? My impression is more - have they basicly shown us most of the game now and will there really be anything left to suprise us. Plots stuff to many players is "ho-hum ... get me back to blasting things" and they spilled alot of the opponests already for that.

Also many times in these games even the company doesnt know fully how the plot will go as they have to trim stuff to meet a deadline, or because they cant get it to work or some part of it is too controversial, so they sometimes cannot pre-disclose whats going to happen because they actualy dont really know themselves.

with extra months to 'polish' who knows what might either be added or get the chop ??



As for someone mangling (including the 'editors' themselves) a public wiki page, that was always the chronic problem with that system.

[Ghanima]

A lot of people have the misconception that bad information accumulates on wiki pages. At the BioShock Wiki that simply isn't true. Bad contributions (like the ones linked above) get removed very quickly. Currently the wiki pages about BioShock Infinite only contain confirmed information.

[japester]

Kept us in the dark ?? With all the trailers and 'official' discussions??

After BioShock came out in 2007, IG went dark for several years. The rumor mill thought they were working on a new X-COM game. They only broke the silence in the last couple of years.

[japester]

A lot of people have the misconception that bad information accumulates on wiki pages. At the BioShock Wiki that simply isn't true. Bad contributions (like the ones linked above) get removed very quickly. Currently the wiki pages about BioShock Infinite only contain confirmed information.

Good to know.

I'm not a big game wiki person myself. But I do check it occasionally after a game launches to check the odd fact. For speculation, I'd rather come here and listen to our band of craziness. Heh.

[watchman]

After BioShock came out in 2007, IG went dark for several years. The rumor mill thought they were working on a new X-COM game. They only broke the silence in the last couple of years.

Which game was that ... BS2 ?? ("went dark for SEVERAL YEARS" + "only broke the silence in the last COUPLE OF YEARS") didnt BS2 come out in 2010 ((~3 years total) and there was some promotional trailers and such ahead of that wasnt there??)

Or you meant Infinite, which I though the interviews say they werent even contemplating (or getting much past idea stage) back that far ('went dark' would mean something if there was something substantial to hide) .

[watchman]

Quote Originally Posted by Ghanima
A lot of people have the misconception that bad information accumulates on wiki pages. At the BioShock Wiki that simply isn't true. Bad contributions (like the ones linked above) get removed very quickly. Currently the wiki pages about BioShock Infinite only contain confirmed information.
Good to know.

japester :
I'm not a big game wiki person myself. But I do check it occasionally after a game launches to check the odd fact. For speculation, I'd rather come here and listen to our band of craziness. Heh.



-----------

In some cases the 'editors' themselves do alot of speculation

One big bioshock wiki ( bioshock.wikia.com ) is full of speculation and assumptions (but fortunately also has alot of good references)

[japester]

Which game was that ... BS2 ?? ("went dark for SEVERAL YEARS" + "only broke the silence in the last COUPLE OF YEARS") didnt BS2 come out in 2010 ((~3 years total) and there was some promotional trailers and such ahead of that wasnt there??)

Or you meant Infinite, which I though the interviews say they werent even contemplating (or getting much past idea stage) back that far ('went dark' would mean something if there was something substantial to hide) .

I simply don't buy that a guy who has made it his mission to lecture everyone on this forum about nearly every topic under the sun could be this ignorant. You've written over 800 posts here and you claim now not to know the difference between BioShock and BioShock 2? That Irrational had nothing whatsoever to do with BS2 and has been working on BSI since the completion of BioShock in 2007? Common knowledge like that?

Nope. Not believable. But consistent. Definitely consistent.

[watchman]

I simply don't buy that a guy who has made it his mission to lecture everyone on this forum about nearly every topic under the sun could be this ignorant. You've written over 800 posts here and you claim now not to know the difference between BioShock and BioShock 2? That Irrational had nothing whatsoever to do with BS2 and has been working on BSI since the completion of BioShock in 2007? Common knowledge like that?

Nope. Not believable. But consistent. Definitely consistent.

Should WE buy that a 'moderator' who supposedly knows the search mechanism cant possibly have seen all the forum postings I never 'lectured' anyone on (oh and 'comment' isnt the same as 'lecture' in most peoples dictionary). 'Every topic under the sun' --- maybe it seems that way to you.

Exaggeration -- a little ??? ('exaggeration' IS one definition of 'distortion' in the dictionary BTW)

I do make references to alot of facts (especially to back up assertions I make ).

"nothing whatsoever to do with BS2" ..., "nothing" - riiiiiiiiiggght ... as there was plenty of consulting with the original authors/company (and EVERY asset/design spec was recreated from scratch ????) but maybe thats considered 'nothing' in some people's dictionary...

Exaggeration ------- a little ???

"working on" yeah ..... (and Spielberg was """working on""" crystal skull for 20 years...) I suppose tossing around ideas can be considered 'working on'.... ( Full blast development for Infinite from 2007 til today - and they still aint done ??? doesnt that put it in that category with BattleCrusiser 3000AD ??? )

Nope.


Consistancy.....

[Codex]

Okay guys, let's bring this back on topic please. Although, given that the topic is that "any unconfirmed information should be treated as fanfiction until proven," I'm starting to think we've run the course of this thread. Still, let's chillax a little please. Thanks.

[Ghanima]

In some cases the 'editors' themselves do alot of speculation

One big bioshock wiki ( bioshock.wikia.com ) is full of speculation and assumptions (but fortunately also has alot of good references)

Could you direct me to articles where you have seen speculation? We try to remove any speculation we find, so please let me know where you've seen any.

I simply don't buy that a guy who has made it his mission to lecture everyone on this forum about nearly every topic under the sun could be this ignorant. You've written over 800 posts here and you claim now not to know the difference between BioShock and BioShock 2? That Irrational had nothing whatsoever to do with BS2 and has been working on BSI since the completion of BioShock in 2007? Common knowledge like that?

Irrational Games haven't actually been working on BioShock Infinite "since the completion of BioShock in 2007." They had at least 6 months of tossing ideas around until until they settled on making Infinite (source). BioShock Infinite has been their "sole focus for the last four years" (source) but they only kept up their policy of absolute secrecy for two and a half years (source).

[FtRapture]

In some cases the 'editors' themselves do alot of speculation

One big bioshock wiki ( bioshock.wikia.com ) is full of speculation and assumptions (but fortunately also has alot of good references)

I have used that wiki quite often and I must say, I have never seen any speculation or assumptions. If there is any they are removed rather quickly from what I can tell; however, I may be wrong.

[japester]

Irrational Games haven't actually been working on BioShock Infinite "since the completion of BioShock in 2007." They had at least 6 months of tossing ideas around until until they settled on making Infinite (source). BioShock Infinite has been their "sole focus for the last four years" (source) but they only kept up their policy of absolute secrecy for two and a half years (source).

Thanks for confirming the details, but that's pretty much what I said. I'd consider brainstorming and prototyping that led up to BSI all part of the creative process. It's not like they started production on another game for a year or two, abandoned it, then started on BSI. And when you consider that we're talking about late 2007 to early 2013, six months isn't a huge chunk of time in the big picture.

Remember that I was responding to comments that said IG worked on BS2 and they apparently started talking about BSI the minute they went into production (in 2010!). The point, which relates to the topic, is that IG has demonstrated they know how to keep a secret, even when under a lot of industry scrutiny. BioShock was such a huge success that everyone wanted to know what their follow-up would be. And they kept a lid on that for years. Hence my position that leaks now are unlikely.

[Ghanima]

Thanks for confirming the details, but that's pretty much what I said. I'd consider brainstorming and prototyping that led up to BSI all part of the creative process. It's not like they started production on another game for a year or two, abandoned it, then started on BSI. And when you consider that we're talking about late 2007 to early 2013, six months isn't a huge chunk of time in the big picture.

Remember that I was responding to comments that said IG worked on BS2 and they apparently started talking about BSI the minute they went into production (in 2010!). The point, which relates to the topic, is that IG has demonstrated they know how to keep a secret, even when under a lot of industry scrutiny. BioShock was such a huge success that everyone wanted to know what their follow-up would be. And they kept a lid on that for years. Hence my position that leaks now are unlikely.

I agree with your point.

But actually, I'm not sure the 6-month brainstorming period was devoted to Infinite. Levine and others mentioned that the tear scene with the "Revenge of the Jedi" marquee was created from "assets just sitting around from a game we never shipped." (source) I assumed that it was from a game they worked on in the period after BioShock since the graphics look more advanced than any of their previous projects that we know of. But my assumption could be completely wrong. Those assets could have been from Zombie SWAT for all I know.

[watchman]

Remember that I was responding to comments that said IG worked on BS2 and they apparently started talking about BSI the minute they went into production (in 2010!). The point, which relates to the topic, is that IG has demonstrated they know how to keep a secret, even when under a lot of industry scrutiny. BioShock was such a huge success that everyone wanted to know what their follow-up would be. And they kept a lid on that for years. Hence my position that leaks now are unlikely.

I never said that IG was the primary developer of BS2 (thats your incorrect assumption), but to claim they(IG) did (and I quote) 'nothing' in the handoff to the other company is just as incorrect.

And as for 'keeping a secret' and 'keeping X in the dark' is not much of a problem when you (the devs) dont actually know where your idea churn is leading you (I would assume they also had to beat the Game Engine into shape for 'features they would like' and until that happened and they were assured it would work they would only go so far on other development). Ideas are a dime a dozen, and spouting off early on something that never happens is usually counterproductive in the game industry.

[japester]

I never said that IG was the primary developer of BS2 (thats your incorrect assumption), but to claim they(IG) did (and I quote) 'nothing' in the handoff to the other company is just as incorrect.

Actually, I never said "primary". I said you made the false claim that they "worked on BS2" sometime until 2010.

Which game was that ... BS2 ?? ("went dark for SEVERAL YEARS" + "only broke the silence in the last COUPLE OF YEARS") didnt BS2 come out in 2010 ((~3 years total) and there was some promotional trailers and such ahead of that wasnt there??)

As for the quibbling about their involvement, I don't consider handing off assets to be significant involvement. And both the industry and Irrational seem to agree: ONE OF MANY, MANY ARTICLES ABOUT THIS.
5 people involved with the original game seeded the new team at 2K Marin, which developed BS2 without any involvement from Irrational. So your mention of BS2 and 2010, quoted above, has no bearing on the point I made. BSI was in development for years before anything was presented to the public. The exact state of the game during those years is a minor point. Anyone who was following Irrational at all knows that public speculation was rampant for some time and that X-COM was the leading guess. And anyone following BioShock should have known that Irrational wasn't involved with BS2.

It can't get any clearer than that. Quibble more if it amuses you. I'm done.

[watchman]

"That Irrational had nothing whatsoever to do with BS2 and has been working on BSI since the completion of BioShock in 2007?"

Assets, Game Engine customization (or did 2K completely redo all that ??), Production Pipeline and tools/training, docs, content Lore/Canon consulting/design specs (and lots of LEGAL STUFF)... actually can amount to a whole lotta crap having to be transfered/coordinated (those '5 people' would have to scrape up lotsa stuff from the original company (and FROM the people who internally owned those processes/data/knowhow). All that stuff whether you think it or not IS part of the game and maybe the 'further' BS2 development didnt much involve IG but again all that other stuff is not 'nothing' (and the transfer of it is not "without any involvement".)

Devil is in the details, havent you heard. Your calling significant effort (to the BS2 project which if 2K had to do themselves would have added YEARs onto their project) your label 'quibbling' shows no understanding of that real world fact.


BTW your quibbling is all about a question (see those puctuation marks that look like this '?' ) I asked (not a statement) since you hadnt made clear which game you were referring to (and IG obviously had a hand in getting 2K started on BS2 - not your 'nothing' you can try to claim) and your 'years' of darkness didnt compute ...


You ignore this little quote :

"Or you meant Infinite, which I though the interviews say they werent even contemplating (or getting much past idea stage) back that far ('went dark' would mean something if there was something substantial to hide) ."

---

And again 'went dark" is easy when you have nothing to show or the ideas havent gelled enough to have anything actually to disclose .... something about a girl and a big bird, oh yeah and balloons.... we'll let you know later when we have more.......

[SSRI]

It pisses me off that someone would try to spoil any information that was not intended to be revealed by the creators themselves.

Who does this guy think he is? Does he speak for Irrational Games now?

Give me a break. Would you kindly tell this douche to get stepped on by a Big Daddy?

RESPECT THE ARTIST IF YOU LOVE WHAT THEY DO!

[watchman]

It pisses me off that someone would try to spoil any information that was not intended to be revealed by the creators themselves.

Who does this guy think he is? Does he speak for Irrational Games now?

Give me a break. Would you kindly tell this douche to get stepped on by a Big Daddy?

RESPECT THE ARTIST IF YOU LOVE WHAT THEY DO!

It was always the problem of the wikipedia 'open' mechanism that allowed anyone to make changes (and change them back continuously if they were removed). Turned into so much work for the editors that they started locking people out (and locking down free access) and suddenly anyone who wanted to contribute for real found it hard to work.

But then why leave something open if it was supposed to be from "the creators themselves", but since the entries dont come directly from those people (creators) there are 'interested parties' who try to add such secondhand material to the wiki and the security/access has to be open to facilitate that - opening it to the 99% garbage most of the internet is.

The remaining process apparently worked - the editors being alerted and removing the offending 'additions'. There really is no other way for it to work.