It will be an improvement over the original
Not sure yet. I'll reserve my opinion until I play the game
Bad move. A limited amount of ammo was one of the features which made the original so good
I absolutely hate this feature and will not be buying the game because of it
What's your opinion on the unlimited-ammo mechanic?
Myself, being an oldskool player of the original XCOM, it's just come to my attention that most weaponry in Enemy Unknown will have unlimited ammo. This is clearly a divergence from the original XCOM titles and may be viewed by some as a 'streamline' too far.
What do people think of this new game mechanic?
I feel that thuis will take away from the game.
I liked the fact that you had to go scavaging for plasma clips sometimes, I like that the benefit of Lazer technology is that it needed no ammo. I think that it brought side arms into teh game much more too.
I will really need to see how it works in the game though, only time will tell. I jsut hope with everything, that they haven't "Overcooked" the game.
I'm on the "wait and see" fence. While I can understand why Firaxis did away with ammo, I remain a tad skeptical. But that's nostalgia talking. As long as 'reloading' plays an important role, I suppose I could forego clips and magazines. Once I have the game in my paws and played a full campaign, I'll be able to cast my final judgement die.
Besides, I believe it is too late for major mechanic changes right now. Firaxis is busy playtesting, fixing and balancing. Fall is just 4 months away!
I am not sure until I play it. It can go either way, good that you have one less thing to micro over or will it remove some of that game depth. I am suspecting that it will be a good thing in the long run. As long as we still have to reload in the tactical game that is more important to me, than having the micro of filling up the soldiers ammo each RTB.
Early game and when I made a new weapon making ammo was good. You have to make a decision as to what you would make, HE, Inc or AP. While the gun was new if you made the wrong ammo you had nothing to fall back on in combat. After that I found manufacturing ammo more or a pain in the ass. It was dam it, getting low on that one again, need to make more. but I just want to build this cool new thing I designed but had to make ammo instead.
I think this will be one that they got right when the game hits the stores. Wait and see I guess.
I think it'll be an improvement - personally, I like the idea of a somewhat streamlined logistics system. I can understand that others might prefer the logistical complexity.
I'm glad they're keeping the need to reload though. Win-win IMO.
I like it personally, and I've played the original, and I like the original. However, this is how I see it.
The short of it is: They've changed the management of ammo from a strategic one to a tactical one.
In the original I noticed a few things. First, unless it was heavy weaponry (which has a limit in the new game) ammo was a non-issue. Even in my six man game I could clear any given map with a combo of laser rifles (which have no ammo) and heavy plasma (with its famous 30-shot clip). I never, ever ran out of ammo. In fact the only time I ran into ammo troubles is if I forgot to make sure it had it on the skyranger.
Second, the rate of ammo consumption was actually artificial. Any shot fired from a clip rendered it spent (unless you eject it before the map was cleared, which could be hazardous if you misjudged the count on the aliens. So ammo buying, selling, and manufacturing occupied trite minutia in my gaming experience. Again, it was only an issue if I forgot to pack it.
Now, I don't mind buying big stuff: Missiles, rockets, laser cannons. Heck, I would have been happy with a bulk option 100 clips per box. However, you might be thinking, "That renders ammo a non issue." That's kind of my point.
Anyway, what I see this new system doing is making ammo a tactical importance. Clips are going to be smaller, different weapons now have range. Meaning you don't have what amounts to a thirty shot fully auto sniper rifle. Laser rifles overheat and reloading eats up the action of your move/action. That effectively limits your options and combat effectiveness of that squaddie by half.
I find it ironic that people are worried that unlimited ammo will mean that people just saturate everything in lead, but by implementing these new mechanics you'll actually saturate less.
So I'm all for it. I don't need to make sure my guys have each individual clip, that's just dull. I'm not their to tie their bootlaces after all.
Personally I like the orginal, I would prefer this new UFO to be as close to the orginal as possible, I spent tons of hours on the Three defense Apocalyse Terror and still play them. hoping for the best!Originally Posted by WizardKing78
I'll just chime in with my usual "Never had problems with ammo beyond weapons like blaster launchers/rockets" etc comment. I'm still honestly amazed anyone had trouble with ammo in the original. Now Terror from the Deep with the bullet sponge Lobstermen (and ☺☺☺☺ty Gauss weaponry)? That's a different story. This is a pretty big non-issue for me compared with other aspects of the game.
Sorry, I voted wrong. I absolutely hate the feature. But not badly enough to stop me buying the game.
Although i'm sure it will stream line the game somewhat i will miss making sure my guys are geared up to the nines. Ammo never really was an issue for me in the first game. TFTD was scarier with, as Aegeri comments, the aliens being tougher and the clips being smaller. I must say that because of the tougher game mechanics TFTD was a more enjoyable game due to the challenge of it.
I'm curious to see how they will make secondary weapons useful with unlimited ammo.
I'm cautiously optimistic. It does sound like the actual act of reloading will play a more important role this time out. I'd consider that a more compelling tactical decision than worrying about number of clips anyway.
Wouldn't it be possible to keep everyone happy by having a customisable difficulty level where various options can be turned on/off to suit your own gameplay preferences?
That would require a ton of extra programming, man hours, and a lot of other things to basically prove the old adage of you can't please everybody.
As for sidearms. I think they'd come in handy if you couldn't afford your action to reload. What if you were going to reload next turn and an alien took out the cover you were standing behind? I would pull my pistol and shoot. Especially if he was close, and he had a friend in overwatch and any move I made got my guy shot.
On one level, I'm fine with it. On the other, well, it would've added to the challenge. And I like a challenge game wise. = )
I did enjoy the limited ammo factor in the original. I think having the risk of running out of the ideal ammo at a critical point and having to improvise a plan of action. Plan B the scenario essentially.. This was a good aspect which added a little more challenge.
but im willing to reserve judgement till ive tried the new system... You cant make an accurate decision without trying all versions of something.
You said it! This is a feature that should absolutely be optional.
True, I never ran out of ammo in the original, but one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game was equipping your soldiers before sending them into battle. It was due to player efficiency, in this respect, which was the reason they never ran out of ammo.
It smacks of laziness not including this as an option. I guess that's what happens when streamlining for the benefit of stupid consoles.
Unlimited ammo= Lack of choice and lack or realism.
I wish I could change my earlier vote because I may not buy the game because of this.
Player efficiency? You do realize it's entirely possible to play the original on superhuman and win with lasers, which require no ammo? In fact, Cydonia packing becomes a non-issue if you give everyone a laser rifle and have them pick up heavy plasma on-mission. It takes no skill to buy the ammo you need, and if you haven't got elerium to make ammo (and you should never have to use it to make ammo) you've got other problems.
The best ammo in the game is dropped readily. I've yet to need to produce any. It has nothing to do with with player skill at packing kit. It comes down to whether or not you're clearing most of your missions and taking home loot.
I will reserve my judgement about unlimited ammo, but it sorta brings up the issue about some sort of beta/demo..to the point were 2K GAMES should release a build and allow for some outside input.
One thing to keep in mind is that alien weapons and ammo distruct upon being dropped. This new type of research material integrates well with the new unlimited ammo situation.
However, I personally loved that moment (although honestly it hardly ever happened) when I had to scour for ammo or a dropped weapon. I think it will work just fine.
There's less then 5 months to launch. There's no time for more 'input'. They're not going to do any sort of open beta. If you're lucky, they MIGHT have a demo (although demos are a rare thing nowadays).
This is how it will be when the game goes gold. No amount of complaining will change that.
Limited ammo needs to fit the setting, IMO. In the case of a well supplied paramilitary force, who deals in small skrimishes, running out of ammo should be the exception to the rule. I found this to be applicable in the originals. Ammo was an issue only after things hit the fan hard (panics, knock outs, etc)
If the setting is a post apoc setting like Fallout, then limited ammo absolutely makes sense.
I vote to the unlimited ammo by mistake.
Unlimited ammo may be a option for a game. But Unlimited ammo make the game somewhat like arcade game.
You want turn-based arcade game?
Last edited by imjinjin; 05-23-2012 at 07:51 AM.
This is speculation on my part because I haven't played the game. However, I think those moments are still there. Let's say your assault gunner is Major Bartholomew P. Badass and he's moved and wiped the floor with several sectoids. He's out of ammo but you have him seek out a slightly forward but nearby piece of cover.
Boom! Two chrysalids are hanging in the mist and you know there's no way for him to act. He's got to reload so he's dead next turn. However, he's not some rookie? So what do you do? Got to come up with some plan to pull his ass out of the fire.
There's something I always find amusing about the "dumbed-down" argument. It kind of hinges on this knee-jerk assumption of "I am very smart, and I enjoy games that are too complex for other kinds of gamers." Here's the problem, though:
Let's face it - even the most complex and difficult of videogames, is still just that: a game. I mean, if we're being serious about this... If on any given day, learning how to play the first X-Com was the hardest thing you had to do that day, then I'd say you've got it pretty easy.
Games just really aren't as difficult to grasp, or as complex to learn, as we seem to want to give them credit for. There's nothing in any of these games that a good modern tutorial wouldn't be able to walk a first-time player through. X-Com's just a strategy game (a very good one that I've enjoyed for something like a decade and a half, of course.) It's wasn't exactly rocket science to begin with.
So is a game "dumbed-down" (I won't even bother with the "for consoles" part.) Or could certain design choices simply have been made on the part of the developer as something that they, at least, feel make for a better game?
I mean, pretty much everyone on here has admitted that there really never was much of a challenge to keeping track of ammo, to begin with. So it's not like this game is losing any challenge with this particular change. Deciding when to reload - now that's where the tricky part comes in, doesn't it? And it looks like that's going to still be in.
(But hey - it's no business of mine who is and isn't buying this game, for whatever reasons matter to them. Not telling anyone what to think - just throwing in my two cents.)
Also, I find it funny that he thought that buying ammo was apparently beyond console players. I've been buying items through menus in varying quantities since Final Fantasy (the original, you know where half the spells didn't work right). Oh... wait... that's a classic turn-based game that was never released on PC...There's something I always find amusing about the "dumbed-down" argument. It kind of hinges on this knee-jerk assumption of "I am very smart, and I enjoy games that are too complex for other kinds of gamers." Here's the problem, though:
Let's face it - even the most complex and difficult of videogames, is still just that: a game. I mean, if we're being serious about this... If on any given day, learning how to play the first X-Com was the hardest thing you had to do that day, then I'd say you've got it pretty easy.
Games just really aren't as difficult to grasp, or as complex to learn, as we seem to want to give them credit for. There's nothing in any of these games that a good modern tutorial wouldn't be able to walk a first-time player through. X-Com's just a strategy game (a very good one that I've enjoyed for something like a decade and a half, of course.) It's wasn't exactly rocket science to begin with.
So is a game "dumbed-down" (I won't even bother with the "for consoles" part.) Or could certain design choices simply have been made on the part of the developer as something that they, at least, feel make for a better game?
I mean, pretty much everyone on here has admitted that there really never was much of a challenge to keeping track of ammo, to begin with. So it's not like this game is losing any challenge with this particular change. Deciding when to reload - now that's where the tricky part comes in, doesn't it? And it looks like that's going to still be in.
(But hey - it's no business of mine who is and isn't buying this game, for whatever reasons matter to them. Not telling anyone what to think - just throwing in my two cents.)
Seriously though, it's buying ammo through a menu, it's not like the PC has a leg up in that market. I've never seen a game marketed as buy ammo better on PC. It just smacks of a narrow-minded view that someone could think that something so simple would be beyond a console player.
To me, it's more because it removes more of the inventory management that many players enjoyed which hasn't had a single mention so far in any of the articles I've read and has most likely been scrapped completely.
I'd prefer if they simply lowered the amount of ammo to saner values but then Firaxis would have to give players the shot selection again as opposed to just "shoot" as an action.
I think its yet another thing where it seems like they are dumbing down the experience. I actually liked planning out my soldiers inventory an giving them ammo/flares/medkits whatever I felt they might need. But I do see where they are going with the unlimited ammo in the new game. It's because of the suppression abilities where the soldier just keeps firing endlessly to keep the enemy pinned down. That does add a little depth though it would have added even more depth with limited ammo IMO. Since then how long you could keep enemies suppressed would be based both on how many moves you had plus how many clips you had to empty at them.
Don't see much point in complaining though. With them having already designed the suppression mechanic they surely wont change this. Just have to hope for mods.
I never found the inventory management thrilling. One, you had to reload people every time (but I know no one likes that). However, it's just there, it's a limitation on what you can put on a person, but I know three people can easily carry anything for any engagement. Every decision I made was before mission start anyway, packing the skyranger right was much, much more crucial than any one person. Which, as I understand it, pre-mission loading is still in the game in terms of special items and whatnot.
Honestly, will have to wait and see.
I'm not the least bit apprehensive about it though - I never gave much of a damn about ammo in the original trilogy outside of rocket or blaster launchers. It just was never a major part of the game for me and it certainly didn't add any additional complexity - most of the time nobody even had to reload in the field anyway. So I highly doubt I'll miss that aspect of the game but until I play it who can say.
It would be neat if, at higher difficulties, even just above Normal, you could have the ammo restrictions. I mean, if there are downed troops already on the scene, you could get your ammo from them, or air dropped in. Say you're low on ammo, you just get a delivery. If a fight is still raging, you pick a zone (big circle) to airdrop a crate in, and it falls somewhere inside it.
Free of charge, but if its destroyed, you're out of ammo for X amount of turns. Otherwise, someone gets a buttload of ammo, or each person has to collect. If its both, you can toss ammo to another soldier (move or full round action) if you're not next to them (which would be free if not a move action) (just a single clip would give them X amount of clips/ammo). Its just a thought though. It would be interesting, but yeah. Dunno if people would be interested in that (aside from myself to an extent).
End of my mental instability, incase someone goes into a small tirade about a vague idea.
GlamCam shot of soldier tossing clip to another soldier, slapping the clip home, and firing a burst into the last health segment of a Muton.
...Meh.
*posts and wanders off*
While some of us (myself included) loved being buried in menus conducting inventory management for hours and hours, I can see where that may not fit in with what Firaxis is trying to accomplish here.
I will absolutely not miss having to guess when the last alien died so that I could eject as many partially-spent clips as possible. LOL
in my opinion there will be more instersting ways of failing missions than running out of ammo. also reloading will be similarly difficult. and I'd go with JS when he says "it saves up alot of head room for other things in the game", so as compromise for not having to care about ammo, you'd have to care about other, more important things.
I don't think it's a case of not caring about ammo, it's a case of not having to worry if you packed enough. I mean you'd still have to manage each person's current clips, which if they need a minimum number of bullets to perform certain actions would become important.
I just have this horrible feeling that my people are going to be flanked horrendously when I go to reload. Boom! Chrysalid out of nowhere.
Rookie Paul McAngusberger: "Aw... crap..."
is exactly what i meant, just in my wacky viennese english...sorry, not native
I'm one of those guys that uses laser rifles for the most part of the game
I didn't bother using Heavy Plasma until Cydonia and even then I didn't notice an ammo issue
reloading? what's that? oh.. it's when you put another blaster bomb into a blaster launcher right?
ste-v don t mind nkidu ,he s used to counter everybody usually ,but hey welcome to the forumis exactly what i meant, just in my wacky viennese english...sorry, not native
thanks alexey
What? I wasn't calling him out on anything. I just misunderstood what he wrote.
yeah dont worry inkidu, i understood. sometimes its just a bit harder to get my point across. its totally okay if you question/rephrase what i wrote... no hard feelings at all, buddies.
ok ok inkidu ,sometimes it feel s you re too agresive ,just saying
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote