I would throw a vote in for quad core over dual. There are games out there that take advantage of it (civ 5 being one of them) and some that just don't run well without it e.g battlefield 3. While those games are the minority, I think it is worth the future proofing to go for the quad core. It's not a huge price difference anymore.Originally Posted by slowtarget
Great thread. As the OP can tell, some of us live for this kind of discussion. Vicariously building a system for someone else is how we get our "fix". LOL
I skimmed all the responses, but pretty much every bit of general advice I would have supplied has already been mentioned. Buying from Newegg (and reading the reviews!), using tomshardware to compare graphic cards, not buying too far ahead in the tech curve, and using a wrist strap to prevent static electricity shock. Static has been the biggest problem for novice friends of mine doing upgrades or builds. Just taking a new part out of it's static bag for the first time can kill it if you aren't grounded.
Sounds like you already made up your mind in lightning speed. I would have suggested waiting a bit and scouring sites like slickdeals and watching Newegg for sales, but I'm a bargain hunter. If you are ready to go, then full steam ahead.
One other suggestion, which may not have been mentioned: register all your components. The standard warranties on most hardware are way better than the year or two a pre-built system vendor will give you. If something does fail, you might be able to get a replacement. And speaking of failing, work that computer hard as soon as you get it set up. Most parts are going to fail in the first 30 days, if ever. So make sure you game and run various stress tests (checking the memory, etc) right away.
Ha, ha. Post pics of the finished build. I like seeing new rigs like other people enjoy baby pictures.
Yeah I have made my decision pretty quickly but in my defense Newegg.com is having memorial day weekend promos all over the place. So if I go with the AMD FX 4100 I am getting it for $99 or the i5 for $195. I will definitely use the static wrist band thing. I don't want my first build to be a dud.Great thread. As the OP can tell, some of us live for this kind of discussion. Vicariously building a system for someone else is how we get our "fix". LOL
I skimmed all the responses, but pretty much every bit of general advice I would have supplied has already been mentioned. Buying from Newegg (and reading the reviews!), using tomshardware to compare graphic cards, not buying too far ahead in the tech curve, and using a wrist strap to prevent static electricity shock. Static has been the biggest problem for novice friends of mine doing upgrades or builds. Just taking a new part out of it's static bag for the first time can kill it if you aren't grounded.
Sounds like you already made up your mind in lightning speed. I would have suggested waiting a bit and scouring sites like slickdeals and watching Newegg for sales, but I'm a bargain hunter. If you are ready to go, then full steam ahead.
One other suggestion, which may not have been mentioned: register all your components. The standard warranties on most hardware are way better than the year or two a pre-built system vendor will give you. If something does fail, you might be able to get a replacement. And speaking of failing, work that computer hard as soon as you get it set up. Most parts are going to fail in the first 30 days, if ever. So make sure you game and run various stress tests (checking the memory, etc) right away.
Ha, ha. Post pics of the finished build. I like seeing new rigs like other people enjoy baby pictures.
I am really leaning towards the FX 4100 though because of the price point. I can get a decent gaming machine for under $700 after the $55 in mail in rebates are sent in. I think that is excellent. I can build a machine with a less powerful processor but a more powerful graphics card.
So essentially I dropped down from the i5 to the FX 4100... but I saved $100 in total, while at the same time I put extra money into the Mobo and spent the extra money to go from the 550 Ti gfx card to the nvidia 560 gfx card, and put a little extra money into quality RAM. Price now is at $698.
Last edited by Shark2346; 05-24-2012 at 05:20 PM.
Whatever you do just hurry up and get a computer... I am sick of you crying about the performace of the game and how they shouldnt add any new features or "calculations".
I have no problem with the performance of the game. Just the performance of my PC. AND for the record before you start your jackass-ery why not re-read that thread you created and see how I defended you and liked the idea.... I was just simply stating that what you suggested would add to the amount the CPU had to process during the game.
So stop being a soft, whiny baby that is typical of America these days when things don't go 100% their way and suck it up. Your idea was good but it would slow down a game that is currently slow enough in its processing. Maybe when G&K/the patch come out they will have actually fixed that issue. but until then my comments stand.
Now, now, let's remain civil here. Discussion of ianascout's idea belongs in it's thread, as do any complaints about what people think about it.
On the topic of generalized features and their toll on hardware, there are a number of potential features that could benefit the game (including the sort of thing ianascout suggested), however, there is always going to be a cost with adding those sorts of things, and the people who suggest them rarely take such things into account (not a criticism, just commenting on reality).
Adding these sorts of things is precisely why people like the OP need/want to upgrade their systems. Games, for the most part, do not lend themselves to easy separation onto multiple cores. Civ 5 is not terribly different. It separates what it can, but the core game logic still needs to run on just one core. Every time you add more into the core game, you give that one core more work to do. Without getting too deep into the technical details, the more you
I'd love to see some sort of real-time statistics/history/charting features added, but I recognize that this isn't as simple as creating a sqlite database and displaying the results on screen. I do think that a reporting system is something that could be added in a separate thread (and thus, run on a separate core)
...but even if that were to happen, it has a cost: For people with (non-hyperthreaded) dual-core systems, separating those calculations and I/O operations into a different thread had no actual benefit. They're still going to see degraded performance. Every time you add things that require non-trivial processing, you should see if it can be justified. Yes, adding espionage and religion is going to require more processing, but it adds new game mechanics that are almost universally seen as fun, and their cost is paid only when they are actually used. Something like a monitoring feature would incur its penalty for every single action that occurs in the game.
Did the OP ever build his CPU? How long did it take? Were there any problems? How is it working now?
Well, he's planning to build a computer. Not a CPU. A CPU is a little bit of silicon mounted on a board with pins, and rather beyond the ability of anyone to make at home. The computer, or box, or system unit, is the thing that combines all such components into a working whole.
Dang you Shark2346!!! Now I have the courage to build my own PC as well...started ordering parts from Newegg...my wife is not very happy...well I guess she is indifferent, but not happy....
Excellent, I'm not the only one who shorted out a MB
Also, make sure to wear the Electrostatic Discharge Wristband. Electronics+Static = :'(
Did you order it yet? Did you say you would still use the laptop? If you aren't using the laptop anymore you could get a laptop to desktop HD kit and use the laptop drive in the desktop instead of buying a new HD.
Last edited by compwiz1202; 05-28-2012 at 04:57 PM.
I had a bad experience with a build that I did 8-9 years ago...shorted out the motherboard...dinn't use the seating bolts...wasn't nearly the amount of information on the internet about building...have been buying from HP ever since...I might try my own build this next time...I have had this HP for 7 years now...a little slow...Excellent, I'm not the only one who shorted out a MB
Also, make sure to wear the Electrostatic Discharge Wristband. Electronics+Static = :'(
Did you order it yet? Did you say you would still use the laptop? If you aren't using the laptop anymore you could get a laptop to desktop HD kit and use the laptop drive in the desktop instead of buying a new HD.
I'll be honest. I don't use a static discharge strap. Instead:Excellent, I'm not the only one who shorted out a MB
Also, make sure to wear the Electrostatic Discharge Wristband. Electronics+Static = :'(
- Install the PSU. PSUs are designed to ground their housings, which are then screwed to the frame of the case.
- Ensure the PSU master switch is turned OFF
- Plug the PSU into a power strip/UPS.
- Ensure the master switch on the power strip/UPS is OFF
Unless your power strip or UPS totally sucks, you'll have a guaranteed ground to the case frame. So long as you keep touching the frame periodically (and it's actually pretty hard not to touch it periodically), you stay continually grounded.
I've heard arguments that say each is better than the other. While grounding through the PSU is not a guaranteed constant-ground like you get with the strap, the strap only guarantees that you and the case are at the same potential, but it can actually encourage a potential against other objects in the area. Grounding against the building's ground-lines is more likely to match the ground of other objects in the area.
In the end, neither one is a guarantee, and either is better than nothing. The PSU version doesn't require any extra equipment. However, it only really works for people who are (excessively) consistent.
When I did work experience at a local independent PC builder (in the 90s at least, work experience weeks were compulsory at state schools in the UK), they didn't use the wrist-straps. The proprietor-manager was of the opinion that they were pointless if you followed sensible practices, as slowtarget as described. He thought they might encourage people to be lazy or self-assured. Better to ground to the case directly, preferably with a grounded case (which there are a few ways to achieve, for example if your PSU doesn't have a master switch or there are issues with your mains grounding, a wire crocodile clipped to the case and a radiator will usually be good, depending on your plumbing), and handle components by the edges etc etc.
I had the folks at Origin build mine last year-- and of course it was pricey. It comes in a very large wooden box and is backed buy VERY good tech. folk who speek my lingo and will help any time of the day. I can now play any game set on " full on " everything at very high FPS.
Being retired and having kids who insist that "Dad" must have the good stuff is great.
Do your home work, compare, and know what questions to ask when interviewing those who you may choose to build your rig.
Always ask questions that YOU know the answer to and then evaluate their answers.
If you have the expertice to build one --- GO FOR IT-- and GOOD LUCK.
For further information:
Doing a quick comparison, a good mid/high level system capable of Civ V and recent AAA games (Skyrim, Mass Effect 3, etc) at full detail, the premium charged by a place like Origin is around $450 over building (Build: $1400, Origin: $1880).
That's not a good or bad thing. A lot of people would be happy to pay $450 to get it assembled and mildly warrantied, and so long as you know that going in, you're not silly for wanting to pay it. And as far as third-party builders go, Origin is one of the ones I would recommend.
I've been building and selling computers for 19 years, and believe me, building them is the easy part, but if you have no confidence to do it yourself, then talk to some friends, find a place that's honest (difficult) and give good support, word of mouth is the best way to find a good technician, asking on forums will just confuse you with the amount of info pouring in.
Frankly, the OP never did report in about his build. Its near a week now. Had he purchased a Dell, he'd be up and running by this time. The real question is how one would rather spend one's time: build a PC, read an eBook, watch TV, sleep, or spend time to pick the next investment?
For some time is more important than spending even $ 2,000 on a PC. After all, time is money as well. Money can be built up over time. Our own time is guaranteed to run out totally.
Some of us are trying to give advice to people who want to self-build. Evenly waying up pros and cons. SirMaru, you seem to just be dead-set on persuading people they shouldn't do so.
...and had a much less capable system, which didn't actually meet his desires. Fantastic.
However, it's far more likely that he is either still waiting to buy or that he bought, built and moved on with his life. The reality is that even on builder forums, only about 1 person in 10 responds back to report the results of their build.
If we don't hear from him ever again, then the default assumption is that no problems were encountered, and he has a functioning, reliable, and enjoyable gaming system.
...which was way better than the Dell he could have gotten for the same amount of money.
C'mon, SirMaru... you're so stubborn! It's hard to look past your posts at this point, even with your old grandpa charm. Give up on advocating Dell here. It has less to do with everything written in this thread and explained (especially by someone as knowledgeable about this subject as slowtarget) and probably has more to do with the fact that YOU'RE stuck with and chosen a Dell and need to justify it. Even though you're in denial, you're probably starting to feel uneasy about it from what you've read from others.
I bet you're hoping and waiting anxiously for Shark to come back here with some type of problem so that you can swoop in with a "Hah!! I told all of you!! Dell for life!!"
Also, why assume that's he's NOT up and running? Who knows? Maybe this forum isn't his priority; maybe he's busy with other things. Maybe he also installed Diablo 3?
Slowtarget was a gentleman about it and being fair, but I won't be. This is a forum for Civ, a gamer forum afterall; don't forget. Dell sucks. This isn't the AOL forums or Home & Garden, where PC's like Dell are probably all the rage for their needs and interests. Even if technology bores you, you're not interested in computers, or you don't have the time and patience to build your own PC, there are much better options out there for pre-built machines and services besides Dell.
I too used to buy Dells when I first started owning my own computers, back when I started college. A Dimension, an Inspiron, and ended with an XPS Desktop to replace the Dimension (oh, the bloatware back then!). I have experience with them. I remember trying to upgrade them and how my options were limited in what hardware I can swap in. They were also filled with ugly plastic pieces and shrouds inside.
Then someone else "showed me the light" and taught me a few things about building PC's since they would buy parts and mention things which made me curious. I've never looked back at Dell, HP, etc. since. While I owned the XPS, I just read everything I could about computer hardware and building them and got familiar with the latest technology back then. Even though I was a bit timid at first, I specced out my first build, ordered everything from Newegg, and built that beast up. No problems; amazing performance. These days, I give advice and recommend things to the one who taught me!
And about "time". Of course, time is money... I personally always consider that and even give myself my own "wage", haha. But, if you enjoy doing it, then it isn't really a factor. It's then considered more of a hobby, and it’s MEANT to occupy your time and enrich your lifestyle.
For example, when I'm constructing a brand new machine from scratch and all the hardware packages arrive at my home, it's such an incredible and joyous feeling as I stack them all on the table, overlook everything, and get ready to open them all up and put everything together. It's like Christmas, it makes me feel like a kid again. When it's all up and running and I'm playing the latest games at not only max settings, but silky smooth framerates, and my design applications are blazing, it's just pure awesome and makes me proud.
Also, honestly, out of those choices you've listed, I'd choose "build a PC".
Again, if you're not into building PC's, that's cool. Nothing wrong with that; it's not your thing. But, continuously advocating Dell here is a bit annoying; even after the OP expressed no interest in it and especially since it seems motivated by egotism.
Last edited by jpbar81; 05-29-2012 at 11:34 AM. Reason: spelling mistake
This is exactly what I was thinking. It's the same reason people defend the Wii, claiming it's just as much a gaming platform as a PS3, 360 or PC. When you spend a lot of money on something, you are committing yourself, choosing a "team", etc. When presented with evidence that you may have choosen poorly, there are only two options available to you: admit that you made the wrong choice (which comes with all the regret and self doubt that entails) or double down and entrench yourself in your decision. Most people, even with seemingly small decisions, choose to double down and fight to the bitter end. Seems silly to me, but I understand the psychology.
I'm really glad I don't work that like, though. I'd STILL be using Dells like SirMaru.
I do hope there is a response though. This was one of my favorite threads in a while, and no resolution would be like reading a great book with the last few pages missing, or watching one of those movies where you know they just ran out of money and ended it abruptly with tons of plots open-ended.
I never had a Dell desktop, but I know Compaq always stank for upgrading, and Gateway were the best for upgrading for me. I used to build my own until one time I swapped a video card, and something unknown went wrong, and I couldn't even get the PC to run with the old card anymore. Maybe someday I will try again someday when I can better afford mishaps. I agree about the Christmas thing, and you can definitely get better upgradability and more bang for your buck by building over buying prebuilt.
Well, I don't know when you had this mishap, but return policies and warrenties have probably changed in that time. You'd be surprised the lengths the good companies go to to keep you happy as a customer. EVGA, Asus, Newegg...just stellar customer support.
In the case of the Wii, I think it's possible to admit its shortcomings and feel that you made the right choice. It depends what you want out of the product. SirMaru's choice may well be right for him, with what he wants and how he values things; the problem is his conviction and assertion that it must surely be the right choice for everyone.
By the way, I've never upgraded parts of a Dell OEM system. I just buy a new one every 3 years. One person in this thread just reported that he tried to swap a video card out and ruined his OEM system. Look at the support section here. I read it a lot. I haven't seen a single hardware problem with a Dell OEM purchased in the last 3 years running Civ V. I've seen dozens of folks complaining they could not run Civ V, overheating and video problems with self built systems.
Of course building systems is probably a fine hobby in and of itself. I won't question that. However, this is a Civ V Forum - not an equipment building forum. The choice for a potential Civ V player should be what system gets him running Civ V fastest with the least aggravation.
There have been lots of posts on how to ground oneself when building a system. I bet lots of first time system builders FORGET that and then don't understand what happened to their great system. There are many other potential mistakes as well by ripping cables in tight fits, not screwing in fasteners tightly, one or more defective top of the line parts which turn out incompatible with other parts such as RAM chips not being compatible with CPU chips, etc.
Manual dexterity is essential in building anything including PC systems. I have a hunch most dedicated video game players are good at playing their games but have little manual dexterity. I'd rather trust a plumber or electrician to build a PC than a game player.
I suspect the OP tried to build a system for the very first time and then returned the parts hopefully for a full refund. If he still wants to play Civ V, he should have purchased a Dell or HP top of the line OEM unit and NOT modified it after purchase.
Most of the people on this Forum are Civ V players - NOT system builders.
That is a highly ignorant viewpoint, expecially in a thread, asking for advice on what to do to run Civ5 optimally.
SirMaru, just because it is not YOUR opinion, doesnt mean it should not be voiced.
Your tech team from Dell, is not based in the USA, they are not even a division of Dell.
The fellows in india, ARE dell.
Iironic
Quantum,
They do speak good English, however. I presume, if I paid an extra $ 250 for 3 years explicitly for North American support, that is what I am getting. Indians and Chinese are very smart by the way and now build most American electronic products. I just really need good English speakers who I can understand. All my Amazon Kindles, my HP printers and now even my Sony TV's are made in China. Even Sony had to move manufacturing there from Japan after the last Tsunami and the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant disaster near Tokyo where their plants used to be located.
By the way, you are the most expert here in giving advice in our support section. Can you point me to any threads where the Civ V players were having problems and explicitly stated they were using a Dell OEM System, not modified, and purchased in the last 3 years? If anyone would know that, it would be you.
If you can find more than one, please post all the links. I am curious myself about those results.
I can point to HUNDREDS
Search for OPTIMUS on these very forums.
Any Dell PC with an Optimus Graphics platform, DOES NOT run Civ 5 without alot of teching.
And what your 250 bill is paying for, is mostly minimum wage workers, with non technical backgrounds, reading solutions out of a script.
The Technicians are in India, most of the people working for your tech team, are barely qualified to (and in many cases were fired from) fast food restaurants.
I have a Dell and do NOT have an Optimus graphics system. Thanks for that pointer. When I upgrade next year to a new system, I'll be sure not to have an Optimus graphics system in my build.
I still would like one or more links to where the OP states explicitly he had an unmodified Dell OEM system built in the last 3 years. I don't remember Optimus as even being available for my Dell build in 2010. Maybe only the lower end Dell systems have that.
Noone EVER states that Maru, it again goes to the Assumed portion of information.
You wont be getting what you'd like in this thread.
If none stated that, then they do not exist. Optimus graphics systems may have only been included in Dells prior to 2009 - 3 years ago. I don't remember them even being offered for my build in 2010.
I'd appreciate it, if in the future when you advise Civ V players in the Support section, to ask them what their system is and see if any admit to owning a Dell OEM unmodified system or any other OEM or self built system and the year of the build. I'd be very interested to see those results in the future.
You have a unique advantage advising the players with problems and could collect that information. Lots of Civ V players could use that to shape their PC buying decisions next year - not just me.
Maru, they are current tech, on HIGH emd machines.
I will not ask irrelevant questions, just to pique your curiosity.
I have pointed out a way for you to find DOZENS of people, having issues, with DELL Computer company.
Currently, the only other gamebreaker, has been with PCTOOLS, and i havent seen a thread that they caused in a long time, DELL, is still popping up from time to time.
None of the Dell users, states that they modified their machines in any way, hence these are stock dells
Can you establish when they were built? If so, please post those links if it was after 2009.
No, i wont.
You are more than capable of researching dell yourself.
Heck, Call your tech team, and see if one of the techs there, even knows what you are talking about (hint again, they are mostly non technical, and minimum wage)
I think YTT Yellow is open right now, and if i understand right, there is no wait time to get through.
By the way we all know from cars that the best lines have plenty of lemons. I'm sure Dell and HP and everyone else sends lemons out from time to time. If the problems are detected soon after delivery, they can be exhanged. After that the warrenty contract would cover repairs.
If you build your own unit, you are on your OWN. Good luck to beginners with that.
I had mentioned earlier that John Denver, the folk singer, used to have his Air Force General father chauffeur him around in air planes. Then he took up building his own from kits. On one build he forgot to tighten the wing bolts enough and the wing fell off. He died in his very own build.
Noone is calling dell's hardware bad here.
However, when lemons do go out, neither HP nor Dell (Nor Apple) rectified it.
A key component, built by a partner (Nvidia) was determined to be faulty at a core level.
Dells fix (as well as HP and Apples) was replace defective with Defective (Google for the Nvidia 8400M)
PS, the answer is -They are still being built-
It's not that there are some lemons. All electronics have lemons, thus it's not a variable to consider. We are talking about business policy (preferring crappy, cheap parts over quality parts). A Dell computer and a custom built computer, both costing, say, $1,000, will be DRASTICALLY different in both performance and upgradibility. The Dell will be inferior in every regard. That's just a fact.
Now, if you don't care about that and never want to upgrade, as you said you don't, then it's a non-issue. But other people want the most performance for their money. Convenience and ease is only secondary to those people.
Is this really such a hard idea to understand? I honestly can't believe this is still being debated.
Windows has developed a system to measure quality. Its called the Windows Experience Index. My 2010 Dell OEM has a rating of 7.4. I have a Dell Studio XPS 7100. What year did you build your unit and what is your Windows Experience Index? Dell has a whole range of units from low quality / low price to very high quality / very high price. One gets what one pays for.
Frankly, I don't believe self built units are superior at all to OEM units. To believe that we would have to compare Windows Experience Indices for units built the same year. Has there been such a study?
How could amateur PC builders completing one to two units per year comapre to professional builders building 2 to 4 units per DAY? In fact, Indian and Chinese electronic builders have much better skills than American electronic builders as well. I'd say that South Korean and Japanese builders are even better than American electronic builders. That is why American electronics companies outsource almost all their builds to East Asia. They get better professionalism at much cheaper prices.
No, Windows has not.
No, they dont.
Dell has a whole range from Low Quality - Low Performance - Low Price, to Low Quality - Medium Performance - High Price
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