Updated ideological new civs poll.

[Homero]

If I could thikn of a way to represent their importance and unique actions and history without being similar to Spain

On the contrary,historically speaking,Portugal lead the way in overseas exploration in the 15th century. Who followed who?
Quoting,
"It is doubtful whether Castilian expansion would have gotten under way in the Atlantic without the stimulus of Portuguese competition. Castilian commitment to the conquest of the Canary Islands until the opportunity emerged to forestall the Infante Dom Henrique. Castilian trade licenses to Guinea in the 1470s were issued in the course of war with Portugal. The Castilian royal commision to Columbus, was in part the result of envy at the profitability of Portugal´s African trade; Magellan (the Portuguese navigator) was a reponse to Portuguese prominance in the trade of spice islands. The Dutch were drawn to the Indian Ocean in emulation of the Portuguese example. The methods and nature of the Atlantic trades in sugar and slaves in the 17th century were borrowed by almost the European states and business that took part in it..."

But Portugal relied heavily on trading ports

In the East, but Portugal was a global empire (Africa-Angola/Mozambique, etc), America ( Brazil),/Asia,Far East (Ceylon, Mollucas, Timor, etc); in Americas, Brazil, the fifth largest country in the world, by the Treaty of Madrid (1750) achieved its present boundaries, by minor adjustments, the equal of all ten Spanish colonies put together.

Here is the difference, quoting,

"Broadly speaking, there was three types of longe range outreach available to imperial societies in the early modern period. They could follow trade winds (or all year prevailing systems) like the Spanish and Dutch; moonsonal systems, like those that inflated far-reaching ambitions in maritime Asia; or they could expand to landward, like Russia or China in Central Asia. The Portuguese did all three."
Source, "Portuguese Expansion in Global Context", pages 507/509, Felipe Fernandez Armesto, British Historian; Tufts University.

---
Preface to the John Hopkins Edition, The Portuguese Empire, Prof. A.J.Russel,
" ...I also wish to stress that the Portuguese not only were the first Europeans to establish (from a European perspective) the boundaries of the modern world, but, to a degree unmatched by any other European nation in the early modern period, came into contact, initiated exchanges, and maintained relationships with persons of greater diversity of racial, cultural, religious, and national backgrounds...finally,interconnecting the histories of four continents and multiple oceans over the span of four centuries"

[PachaMinnie]

My votes - Poland, Israel, Kongo, and Sioux. BTW - where is Tibet ??

Yes, where is Tibet in this poll. I thought they where quite popular. Can someone explain to me why? Did the OP just forget?

[Hawk]

Yes, where is Tibet in this poll. I thought they where quite popular. Can someone explain to me why? Did the OP just forget?

Not at all. I was seriously considering adding Tibet, but as I said, I only had ten slots. I had to put some civs together in the same option, when I usually don't like doing that. When the next DLC or two come out we will likely see Tibet in the poll again, so you will get another chance to vote for them. Besides that, at least they are being represented as a City-State, or to some extent China, as they have been a part of China for a while now.

[PachaMinnie]

Not at all. I was seriously considering adding Tibet, but as I said, I only had ten slots. I had to put some civs together in the same option, when I usually don't like doing that. When the next DLC or two come out we will likely see Tibet in the poll again, so you will get another chance to vote for them. Besides that, at least they are being represented as a City-State, or to some extent China, as they have been a part of China for a while now.

Since 1951, which isn't really that long, considering they where their own independent nation with their own culture since at least the 600s A.D.

I look forward to seeing Tibet in future polls. They are one of the nations I most want added.

[ddesart]

Since 1951, which isn't really that long, considering they where their own independent nation with their own culture since at least the 600s A.D.

I look forward to seeing Tibet in future polls. They are one of the nations I most want added.

I look forward to voting in polls that are started by you Pacha, that way you can add anybody that you want to...I think that Hawk did a great job coming up with poll that was equally balanced. He couldn't include everyone as he had only ten slots to fill.

[PachaMinnie]

I look forward to voting in polls that are started by you Pacha, that way you can add anybody that you want to...I think that Hawk did a great job coming up with poll that was equally balanced. He couldn't include everyone as he had only ten slots to fill.

Oh no no no, I'm not saying he did a bad job. I was merely asking why Tibet wasn't in the polls. Now my question has been answered. I meant no disrespect.

[Hawk]

I look forward to voting in polls that are started by you Pacha, that way you can add anybody that you want to...I think that Hawk did a great job coming up with poll that was equally balanced. He couldn't include everyone as he had only ten slots to fill.

Thanx ddesart!

Oh no no no, I'm not saying he did a bad job. I was merely asking why Tibet wasn't in the polls. Now my question has been answered. I meant no disrespect.

I know you don't mean any disrespect buddy, I wouldn't have thought that from you. I don't mind questions either.

[Black Gate of Mordor]

I have a question. Why does 2K only restrict it to ten options? On another forum I go onto, there's the option to have as many options in the poll as you want, and you can have five different questions. Why 2K keeps it so low is beyond me.

edit: Voted for Portugal, Assyria, Majapahit/Indonesia and Vietnam

[Quinas]

Being Portuguese, here is the e-mail that I’ve send to Firaxis and 2K. By the way, congratulation to all the Civilizations included in Gods and Kings, especially the newcomers. They all deserve to be in!

The Glorious Spices Empire - Portugal in Civilization 5

Hello

If you are reading this e-mail please, please send it to Ed Beach and/or to Dennis Shirk and/or to any one responsible for the production of Civilization 5 in Firaxis and/or 2K. I don’t have and I don’t want to have any direct e-mail address of then.

When the expansion Gods and Kings for Civilization 5 was announced and after seeing a screenshot where Lisbon emerged as a city state, I was almost sure that Portugal would not be included in this expansion.

When Sweden was announced as the ninth and last civilization to be included in Gods and Kings, I posted the following comment in the 2K and Civfanitcs forums:

Portugal is the son of a lesser god (and king)
“I found Him in the shining of the stars,
I marked Him in the flowering of His fields,
But in His ways with men I find Him not.
I waged His wars, and now I pass and die.
O me! For why is all around us here
As if some lesser god had made the world,
But had not force to shape it as he would,
Till the High God behold it from beyond,
And enter it, and make it beautiful?
Or else as if the world were wholly fair,
But that these eyes of men are dense and dim,
And have not power to see it as it is:
Perchance, because we see not to the close;
For I, being simple, thought to work His will,
And have but stricken with the sword in vain;
And all whereon I leaned in wife and friend
Is traitor to my peace, and all my realm
Reels back into the beast, and is no more.
My God, thou hast forgotten me in my death;
Nay — God my Christ — I pass but shall not die.”
Alfred Lord Tennyson's "Idylls of the King"

Seeing all the European nations that are present in the game, I wonder whether the deeds performed by the Portuguese civilization over the centuries were not enough to secure a place in the pantheon of civilizations.

We are few and occupy a small corner of Europe, but our contribution to the history of mankind was huge, with everything good and bad that we have achieved.

As the Portuguese poet Fernando Pessoa wrote in his poem “A Mensagem” (The Message),

“God wants, man dreams, and the work is born.
God wanted the earth to be all one,
That what the sea joins be now not torn.
Crowned thee and foam-unveiling, you went.
And the white shore from isle to continent lit
Up, running on and on, to the world's end,
And suddenly the Earth was seen total, out
From the profound blue arising round.
Who hallowed you created you Portuguese.
To the sea and to us you were His call.
The Sea grew whole, the Empire shook to pieces.
Lord, what lacks is to make whole Portugal!”

After expressing my disappointment, I questioned myself about what could I do to reveal my country's historical greatness. Sure I could have written dozens of e-mails complaining, saying that I would never play Civilization again, etc., etc.

I did not, nor will I do so, because I love the game and with all the innovations that were introduced in this expansion, I know that I will love it even more.

I concluded that what Portugal needs is a champion to defend his cause and to disclose their deeds.

Since the expansion of Gods and Kings was mainly based on the scenario “Into the Renaissance”, I decided to send you this e-mail, with which I intend to show that the historical presence of Portugal in the East (east coast of Africa, India , Sri Lanka, Indonesia, China, Korea and Japan), will allow the creation of an excellent scenario (the colonization of Brazil it’s another chapter of our history).

As such, I tried to gather documentation that tells the deeds achieved by the Portuguese in the sixteenth century in the East. The documents were taken from Wikipedia.

I send you the story of the first seven Portuguese Indian Armadas (Fleets) – See the Wikipedia links below. I apologize for not being able to summarize these documents, but as you can see my English is not very good.

In a time were other European kingdoms were plunged in wars against each other and still struggling to get out of the Dark Ages, the Portuguese set sail to “give new worlds to the world”. We are the fathers of the Renaissance.

The Portuguese Discoveries, initiated in the fifteenth century, were not done by hazard. The Portuguese Crown did not decide to send explorers into the unknown, without any sound scientific knowledge. No!

The Portuguese discoveries were based on a knowledge made of experiences acquired through successive navigation trips, supported by the improvement of navigation instruments (astrolabes, etc.), ships (caravels and carracks) and the preparation of accurate and detailed cartographic maps.

Unlike the discoveries of Columbus, which were due to an error made by the navigator when estimating the diameter of the globe, the Portuguese discoveries were made step by step, sailing along the west coast of Africa, charting it, mapping the constellations of the southern hemisphere sky (unknown for all the Europeans and crucial for an open sea navigation in the southern hemisphere), studying the winds and the currents, in search of the point where the Atlantic and the Indian oceans meet, allowing the passage to the mythical land of the spices, India.

(Columbus estimated the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan to be about 3.700 km, while the correct figure is 19.600 km, or about 12.000 km along a great circle. No ship in the 15th century could carry enough food and fresh water for such a long voyage and the dangers involved in navigating through the uncharted ocean would have been formidable. Most European navigators reasonably concluded that a westward voyage from Europe to Asia was unfeasible, as well as King John II of Portugal, which, supported by the Portuguese scientific knowledge, refused to finance the trip, forcing Columbus to seek financing in Castile. From this episode one can understand the gap between de Portuguese and Spanish scientific knowledge in the last quarter of the 15th century)

After the successful navigation of Bartolomeu Dias around the Cape of Good Hope in 1488 (South Africa), the Portuguese were able to fulfill the dream never reached by Alexander the Great and Caesar Augustus, conquer India.

The Wikipedia documents cover the first’s years of Portugal's presence in the East. They tell a story of navigation difficulties, naval battles against the Persian Gulf Arab states who controlled the spice trade in India and did not want to lose its monopoly (the Portuguese advance in naval artillery was immense), against the Ottomans, the Sultan of Egypt, the city states of Venice and Ragusa and other kingdoms in the region.

These documents also tell the story of a message that was left by a Portuguese navigator inside a shoe on the shores of South Africa, addressed to the other Armadas (no, not a message in a bottle), the story of the first Portuguese missionaries in East (religion is back in Civilization – YES!!), and many other adventures.

Reading these documents, I can imagine a fantastic scenario, immensely playable, which goes from 1497 to 1580. I hope you agree.

I greatly appreciate your patience with this Portuguese fan of Civilization.

In the coming days I will send some more documentation telling how Portugal defeated the pirates in the China Sea and by doing so was rewarded by the Emperor of China with the city of Macau, how we reached Japan and introduced fire weapons in the Japanese warfare, how we were allowed to build a new city in Japan (Nagasaki) and how ingenious was our trade in the Indian Ocean (the Portuguese Crown had no money to buy the spices so we created naval trade routes – buying goods in Sri Lanka and selling them in India and in China, and vice versa – spending the profit of this trade in spices that were shipped back to Lisbon and sold at very high prices).

Thank you. Your work provides me many hours of pleasure.

Obrigado.

Links:
• Portuguese India Armadas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_India_Armadas)
• 1st Portuguese India Armada - Gama 1497 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_da_Gama)
• 2nd Portuguese India Armada - Cabral 1500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Por...(Cabral,_1500))
• 3rd Portuguese India Armada - Nova 1501 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Por...a_(Nova,_1501))
• 4th Portuguese India Armada - Gama 1502 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Por...a_(Gama,_1502))
• 5th Portuguese India Armada - Albuquerque 1503 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Por...querque,_1503))
• 6th Portuguese India Armada - Albergaria 1504 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Por...ergaria,_1504))
• 7th Portuguese India Armada - Almeida 1505 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Por...Almeida,_1505))

P.S. How about a scenario based upon the board game “Empire in Arms”? With Portugal as a Major Power off course!

[SlickSlicer]

The only one I care about is Vietnam, but I have long observed that very few people share my sentiment. In terms of history, they rival many of the other great Asian civilizations.

[Quinas]

In a time were other European kingdoms were plunged in wars against each other and still struggling to get out of the Dark Ages, the Portuguese set sail to “give new worlds to the world”. We are the fathers of Globalization.

The Portuguese Discoveries, initiated in the fifteenth century, were not done by hazard. The Portuguese Crown did not decide to send explorers into the unknown, without any sound scientific knowledge.

The Portuguese discoveries were based on a knowledge made of experiences acquired through successive navigation trips, supported by the improvement of navigation instruments (astrolabes, etc.), ships (caravels and carracks) and the preparation of accurate and detailed cartographic maps.

Unlike the discoveries of Columbus, which were due to an error made by the navigator when estimating the diameter of the globe, the Portuguese discoveries were made step by step, sailing along the west coast of Africa, charting it, mapping the constellations of the southern hemisphere sky (unknown for all the Europeans and crucial for an open sea navigation in the southern hemisphere), studying the winds and the currents, in search of the point where the Atlantic and the Indian oceans meet, allowing the passage to the mythical land of the spices, India.

Columbus estimated the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan to be about 3.700 km, while the correct figure is 19.600 km, or about 12.000 km along a great circle. No ship in the 15th century could carry enough food and fresh water for such a long voyage and the dangers involved in navigating through the uncharted ocean would have been formidable. Most European navigators reasonably concluded that a westward voyage from Europe to Asia was unfeasible, as well as King John II of Portugal, which, supported by the Portuguese scientific knowledge, refused to finance the trip, forcing Columbus to seek financing in Castile. From this episode one can understand the gap between de Portuguese and Spanish scientific knowledge in the last quarter of the 15th century.

After the successful navigation of Bartolomeu Dias around the Cape of Good Hope in 1488 (South Africa), the Portuguese were able to fulfill the dream never reached by Alexander the Great and Caesar Augustus, conquer India (or so we thought).

The Portuguese history from 1497 and forward in the East is a story of navigation difficulties, naval battles against the Persian Gulf Arab states who controlled the spice trade in India and did not want to lose its monopoly (the Portuguese advance in naval artillery was immense), against the Ottomans, the Sultan of Egypt, the city states of Venice and Ragusa and other kingdoms in the region.

It’s also a story of a message that was left by a Portuguese navigator inside a shoe on the shores of South Africa, addressed to the other Portuguese Armadas (no, not a message in a bottle), the story of the first Portuguese missionaries in East and a story filled of good and bad deeds.

There are lots of documents in Wikipedia that narrate how Portugal defeated the pirates in the China Sea and by doing so was rewarded by the Emperor of China with the city of Macau, how we reached Japan and introduced fire weapons in the Japanese warfare, how we were allowed to build a new city in Japan (Nagasaki) and how ingenious was our trade in the Indian Ocean (the Portuguese Crown had no money to buy the spices so we created naval trade routes – buying goods in Sri Lanka and selling them in India and in China, and vice versa – spending the profit of this trade in spices that were shipped back to Lisbon and sold at very high prices).

And there is Brazil, but that is another chapter ……

[Black Gate of Mordor]

[rambling history lesson]

We understand that Portugal is a very worthy empire. I am quite surprised they weren't one of the first DLC. But we don't need the history lesson to understand this fact. I think the majority of voters understand Portugal's significance (they lead by over ten percent).

[Hawk]

I have a question. Why does 2K only restrict it to ten options? On another forum I go onto, there's the option to have as many options in the poll as you want, and you can have five different questions. Why 2K keeps it so low is beyond me.

I don't really understand this myself - I wonder if the 2K members have insight into this?
It would just be so much easier even with a few more options available, but this is how they must like it. Maybe we should start a petition?

[Homero]

But we don't need the history lesson to understand this fact

I agree. What I posted earlier was an answer to a previous post (Spanish/Portuguese similarities, post 16)
That´s all.

[Quinas]

It was not my intention to give a history lesson to anyone. I have neither the knowledge nor the competence to do so.

Like Homero did, I just tried to point out that the Portuguese discoveries were quite different from the Spanish, not only in the way they were carried out, but also in the goals they've achieved.

PS: Congratulations to all the civilizations which were included in the expansion, especially the newcomers.

[Israelite76]

I am unsurprisingly supporting Israel (combination of the ancient kingdom and modern state), amongst others, and even though it currently stands at 5th spot as I write this I am still encouraged.

The only Civ possibilities that are ahead of Israel are combined Civs of 2 or more. So if you want Assyria but weren't bothered about Sumeria or Hittites, you will still vote for them and that can be said of any of the other two, therefore their votes are pooled.

Israel is ahead of the other 4 single Civ-statehood applicants and only 6 behind in votes on the current, overall leader. If 2K Games do take into account our opinions, as they seemingly did with Polynesia, and no nation is excluded because of politics then Israel should be right up there, within the next 3 or so. Only Portugal and Zulu have consistently had a greater popularity in previous polls.

I want to see what stuff 2K Games are made of.

[luciferkid]

The only Civ possibilities that are ahead of Israel are combined Civs of 2 or more. So if you want Assyria but weren't bothered about Sumeria or Hittites, you will still vote for them and that can be said of any of the other two, therefore their votes are pooled.

This is more a fault of Poll option,which doesn't allow more than 10 options than a merit from Israel . I wonder how many people would vote for both Portugal or Brazil or only one of them if they are separated . Probably,a good sign that Brazil would be accepted as a civilization,and from all the modern civilizations,they are the ones who deserve more .

Israel is ahead of the other 4 single Civ-statehood applicants and only 6 behind in votes on the current, overall leader. If 2K Games do take into account our opinions, as they seemingly did with Polynesia, and no nation is excluded because of politics then Israel should be right up there, within the next 3 or so. Only Portugal and Zulu have consistently had a greater popularity in previous polls.

Excluding Israel because of politics would make sense,because this might be the reason why Israel might cease to exist in the future . Personally,I would prefer a Hebrew Civilization,that has only Geographic bounds with the modern state of Israel(in a same way of Rome/Italy and Persia/Iran .

[SlickSlicer]

I would be outraged if there was a Hebrew or Jewish civilization instead of Israel. I'm fine with Israel, but if they're going to add them, they shouldn't be afraid to do it right. Israel in ancient times was really unimpressive. The civilization should take into account aspects from modern times, because Israel has an impressive modern military.

[PachaMinnie]

I would be outraged if there was a Hebrew or Jewish civilization instead of Israel. I'm fine with Israel, but if they're going to add them, they shouldn't be afraid to do it right. Israel in ancient times was really unimpressive. The civilization should take into account aspects from modern times, because Israel has an impressive modern military.

But, many people hate the modern day nation of Israel with a passion, a very violent passion. Saying, "Oh they think they can just waltz in there after a couple thousand years and expect their land back? No, that land belongs to us!" I don't think they should combine both ancient and modern, that's asking for to much. Making them a powerhouse early and late game? No thanks, that's just too good.

[FeddyPoap]

I'm always for the representation of the Israelies. They certainly have plenty of leaders to choose from. I would bet the Merkava would be a unique unit, and maybe one in the ancient era too to represent the times where they've had real influence. And if you want to talk about early game dominance, look no further than the Huns with their battering ram. They'll be able to attack cities with much confidence a lot earlier than anyone else.

[Taciturn Scot]

Voted for:

Poland
Zulu
Portugal
Assyria/Sumeria/Hittites

I'm pretty sure we'll see Portugal and the Zulu in the very near future. Poland/Lithuania would be very nice to have too.

[SlickSlicer]

But, many people hate the modern day nation of Israel with a passion, a very violent passion. Saying, "Oh they think they can just waltz in there after a couple thousand years and expect their land back? No, that land belongs to us!" I don't think they should combine both ancient and modern, that's asking for to much. Making them a powerhouse early and late game? No thanks, that's just too good.

Oh I agree with you. I can see why people dislike--nay, hate--modern Israel. I consider myself a neutral on the matter. Perhaps I am even slightly against Israel. In any case, I am not favoring them because I love the country. I don't care about the country at all.

But if they're gonna add Israel, I want them to do it right. If they're gonna add a wholly premodern Jewish civilization, I'd rather they add the Khazars than Israel.

I said they should have aspects of ancient and modern Israel. The 'aspects' of ancient Israel that they should have, from my point of view, involve leaders and possibly a UB. A leader like King Solomon is good because he is politically neutral. People who hate Israel aren't going to be furious at his inclusion. And people who like Israel will probably enjoy somebody like King David or Solomon better than a modern leader anyways. It's really a win-win for everybody.

I think their UA and UU should be from the modern era. And their UA should have something to do with Mossad and involve the new espionage system, imo.

[PachaMinnie]

I'm pretty sure we'll see Portugal and the Zulu in the very near future. Poland/Lithuania would be very nice to have too.

Poland isn't getting in because Austria has Hussars. However it would be nice to see them.

@SlickSlicer: I agree with you.

[Hawk]

I think we're more likely to see a more modern representation of Israel anyway.

[chrisjwmartin]

You say that many people would object to the inclusion of Israel. But I'm sure those same people would take great pleasure from conquering Israel, razing its cities to the ground and sowing its fields with salt. It works both ways, see.

[Israelite76]

This is more a fault of Poll option,which doesn't allow more than 10 options than a merit from Israel . I wonder how many people would vote for both Portugal or Brazil or only one of them if they are separated . Probably,a good sign that Brazil would be accepted as a civilization,and from all the modern civilizations,they are the ones who deserve more .

To be fair, at this stage, when there is a difference of 6 votes between 1st and 6th, and just a couple of people vote for one nation that they may not have voted for instead then it DOES make a difference.

Also, I completely disagree about Brazil too. I voted for Portugal/ Brazil but if there were separated I would definitely not vote for Brazil. I am sure that there are many with a like mind as Brazil is not a proposed Civ that has particularly done well in previous polls. As for the limitations of the poll, I understand the necessity for pooling Civs together but that doesn't take away the invalidity of doing so as it fudges the statistics.

By the way, why do Brazil deserve it more? The Rio Carnival, a superb soccer team, nice beaches, hot women...? How often does Brazil make the news (other than natural resources such as the rain forest) for economic, technological, literary, artistic advances/merits, Nobel Prizes? Urm...? How is the Brazilian culture changing the world on a regular basis? Unfortunately, Brazil is a Third World country with Third World problems: huge crime rate, poverty, slums, raping natural resources, economic and political instability, high illiteracy, high birth and deaths rates etc. How and why should it qualify?

Excluding Israel because of politics would make sense,because this might be the reason why Israel might cease to exist in the future . Personally,I would prefer a Hebrew Civilization,that has only Geographic bounds with the modern state of Israel(in a same way of Rome/Italy and Persia/Iran .

Israel isn't going anywhere and whatever happens in the future is irrelevant to picking a Civilization today. Israel has already been in wars: 1948-9/ 1956/ 1967/ 1973/ 1982/ 2006 and pretty much come out on top every time. 1948 and 1973 were far darker periods in Israel's history and if the state wasn't wiped out then, you can be confident with superior weapons and technology today that whatever our neighbours do, it will be resilient. In 1948 a few hundred thousand Israeli outfought 5 Arab armies, some led by mercenary, experienced, former British officers, so Israeli isn't going anywhere and I resent the assertion that it is.

BTW Rome/Italy and Persia/Iran do not have the proposed same geographic borders. Rome and Persia's Empires were far greater than Italy and Iran's current borders, unless I have misunderstood your meaning.

[Israelite76]

I would be outraged if there was a Hebrew or Jewish civilization instead of Israel. I'm fine with Israel, but if they're going to add them, they shouldn't be afraid to do it right. Israel in ancient times was really unimpressive. The civilization should take into account aspects from modern times, because Israel has an impressive modern military.

Hear, hear!

But you can add to the military, science (a lot developments and apps were invented in Israel, it leads the way in 'green technology' ie industry that does not harm the environment), technology, Nobel Laureates (not Jews, Israelis to be 100% clear and not just 'Peace Prizes'), artists, actors etc What we don't have in excess is water and athletes but what else is new?

[Israelite76]

But, many people hate the modern day nation of Israel with a passion, a very violent passion. Saying, "Oh they think they can just waltz in there after a couple thousand years and expect their land back? No, that land belongs to us!" I don't think they should combine both ancient and modern, that's asking for to much. Making them a powerhouse early and late game? No thanks, that's just too good.

All because 'PR' is not good, they shouldn't be excluded. Many people hate China over Tibet or England (Britain) over the Falklands or Russia over Chechnya, India over Kashmir, or numerous other examples. Just because 'the struggle' is more publicised, it doesn't mean that the nation should be excluded. I wouldn't think to exclude the examples above or Germany, Japan, the USA, Spain etc over decisions made in living memory that has caused deaths, destruction etc. If a country should get in on it's merits it should be in. All because those people who for whatever reason, justified or not, based in fact or not, political or not, don't like a Civ/ nation, it's irrelevant.

[Israelite76]

I said they should have aspects of ancient and modern Israel. The 'aspects' of ancient Israel that they should have, from my point of view, involve leaders and possibly a UB. A leader like King Solomon is good because he is politically neutral. People who hate Israel aren't going to be furious at his inclusion. And people who like Israel will probably enjoy somebody like King David or Solomon better than a modern leader anyways. It's really a win-win for everybody.

I think their UA and UU should be from the modern era. And their UA should have something to do with Mossad and involve the new espionage system, imo.

This is a nice, balanced idea between ancient and modern versions of the game but why should we 'bend over' and pick a leader just not to offend anyone? Mao and Stalin have been in previous Civilization games and they were the biggest murderers of all time...and that wasn't an 'issue' for the developers... Anyway, as a comment is mentioned below, if you don't like Israel you can destroy them, whatever his motivation about saying this, he is quite correct. As for modern leaders, Menachem Begin, although hardline, made peace with Egypt and Yitzak Rabin made peace with Jordan and put in place agreements with Arafat, shaking hands with him on the White House lawn in the 1990s - as he was killed by an Israeli Jew, maybe some Israeli Jews (predominantly settlers who are our internal pariahs) would be most offended by his inclusion, pro-Palestinian groups shouldn't be, they should lament his passing unless they are so embittered that 'all Israelis are the same and kill Palestinian children...etc' Anyway, it's not in Civ's nature to put in leaders that are recent, I think that Haile Selassie will be the most modern one, dying in the mid-70s.

For the record, as mentioned in previous posts, I have no problem with any leader being included as long as they are relevant, even Hitler. I would relish Hitler's inclusion in fact for the reason stated above, to destroy him!

[SlickSlicer]

This is a nice, balanced idea between ancient and modern versions of the game but why should we 'bend over' and pick a leader just not to offend anyone?

We shouldn't, but I just prefer King David or Solomon anyways. Aside from a lack of controversy, they have something else over Menachem Begin, Yitzchak Rabin and others. This is the fact that they are famous, which gives them bigger mass appeal (especially among amerikanz). I feel like they are just all-around better representatives. This is possibly because they are both heavily romanticized, admittedly.

Personally, I am just about the least politically correct person in the world. Absolutely nothing can seriously offend me. But I still understand practical matters of PR that might limit (unfortunately) 2k games' decisions.

[miglanz]

I voted: Poland, Assyria, Portugal

Reason being - I just know I'd enjoy playing as a leader of each of those (so it's just plain subjective).

Being Polish I always felt a little bit sad that Poland is never included in the official releases. But I can understand that. There's just too many medieval civs from Europe that are basically the same. There's no point arguing which one deserves the spot more.

Poland is like Austria, Hungary, Czech Kingdom, Sweden - they always played their big roles, but there's nothing significant enough about them so that they should be added as an additional power. In the end the civilization is basically European, just with different kings and nations.

I believe that's the reason why Poland / Lithuania never makes it into official releases. There's trouble in figuring out a distinctive building for the civilization as well as the special unit. There's the problem with those Hussars, in 16th & 17th century everyone in central / eastern Europe had cavalry like that. The difference is that in other states the Hussars were light cavalry, and in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth they were heavy cavalry - also very distinctive in looks. Nevertheless the common name derived from the Serbian mercenaries remains a problem. Maybe they could be called "heavy hussars".

Maybe there's somebody that can come up with some other special unit for Poland-Lithuania.
A funny idea that I had is the most distinguished Polish Emigrant (Immigrant depending on the point of view) Worker
As far as the special building goes I liked the Folwark idea from one of the civ 4 mods (esnaz I think it was).

One last thing to be said - Poland-Lithuania Commonwealth is some great material for scenarios. Especially between XVIII and XX. So maybe that's a good reason to make a DLC out of it.

[miglanz]

BTW: I like both Brasil and Portugal, and I do understand that the poll potions are limited to 10, but putting them together doesn't make any sense to me.

[chrisjwmartin]

Anyway, as a comment is mentioned below, if you don't like Israel you can destroy them, whatever his motivation about saying this, he is quite correct.

For the record, as mentioned in previous posts, I have no problem with any leader being included as long as they are relevant, even Hitler. I would relish Hitler's inclusion in fact for the reason stated above, to destroy him!

My motives were entirely innocent and practical. I enjoy playing Greece against Rome, America against Russia, England against France, and vice versa in all those cases. I can imagine that playing Israel against Arabs and Germans, and vice versa, would be fun.

[luciferkid]

Also, I completely disagree about Brazil too. I voted for Portugal/ Brazil but if there were separated I would definitely not vote for Brazil. I am sure that there are many with a like mind as Brazil is not a proposed Civ that has particularly done well in previous polls. As for the limitations of the poll, I understand the necessity for pooling Civs together but that doesn't take away the invalidity of doing so as it fudges the statistics.

I respect your opinions and also agrees that Portugal and Brazil should be separated .

How often does Brazil make the news (other than natural resources such as the rain forest) for economic, technological, literary, artistic advances/merits, Nobel Prizes? Urm...? How is the Brazilian culture changing the world on a regular basis?

About technology,Brazil is leading the researchs about Biofuel . Also,they are about to sell their combat fighters(Super Tucano) to the USA,which was sold for other countries as well . They hosted the UNCED meeting at 1992 and they'll host a similar meeting tomorrow(Rio+20) . And I could say many things about their rich culture,which goes much further than any stereotypes about them . And I didn't even mention their economy potencial,which recently,overcome United Kingdom in GDP rank . For a third world country with no Nobel Prize ,Brazil is going very well here .

Unfortunately, Brazil is a Third World country with Third World problems: huge crime rate, poverty, slums, raping natural resources, economic and political instability, high illiteracy, high birth and deaths rates etc. How and why should it qualify?

There aren't economic instability,political instability and high birth rate in Brazil . Their illiteracy is about 10% of the population,which can be seen as a high one or low one,depending on what are you comparing . But being a Third world country does not automatically exclude them .

By the way, why do Brazil deserve it more? The Rio Carnival, a superb soccer team, nice beaches, hot women...?

I would be very stupid if I mention that such stereotypes are the reason to include Brazil and I ask you for not using stereotypes,because they work very well for twisting any kind of knowledge . Like I said,if you compare all the "modern nations" which isn't represented directly by a civilization already in the game,like Brazil,Canada,Australia and even Israel,Brazil is the one who most deserves a representation . Some reasons include:

- From the 10 countries with the highest GDP,Brazil is in 6/7th position,which puts them above other "Modern" countries . And if you compare them with other countries not represented,they have the highest GDP;
- Their culture is strongly unique;
- Inca can't represent the whole South America(they can only represent most of the culture of Andes) and Brazil is the only one who can represent the Eastern South America(no Native American civilization could do the same);
- Their unique history can give an interesting UA . The only warning here is avoid creating a UA based on their stereotypes;

BTW Rome/Italy and Persia/Iran do not have the proposed same geographic borders. Rome and Persia's Empires were far greater than Italy and Iran's current borders, unless I have misunderstood your meaning.

The meaning with the comparison about Rome/Italy and Persia/Iran was not about their conquests,but about their origins and slightly by their cultural bounds,which are somehow weak .

[Vlynor]

I completely support the idea of Brazil and Portugal.

Portugal due to obvious reasons, it was one of the largest exploration powers of it's time.

And Brazil because it's a rising Economic and World Power. It's a part of the BRIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIC) system and the other three attached to that acronym are already in the game.

[istry555]

I'm happy seeing Assyria/Sumeria/Hittites score so high, as I've been wanting more ancient Mesopotamia representation for a while (seeing it as under presented considering its importance).

Also, not counting Majapahit which is a forum favorite and a new inclusion, I'm not surprised to see the other top three choices line up with the three most prominent missing legacy civs (Zulu, Portugal, Sumeria)--prominent meaning appearing in the most previous civ games as opposed to the other legacy civs which were largely replaced by similar new civs.

Unfortunately, Brazil is a Third World country with Third World problems

Yes, Brazil is Third World in the original and actual meaning of that term, i.e. the third grouping of countries not aligned with either NATO or the Soviet Union during the Cold war. However, Brazil is not considered "third world" in the modern colloquial usage of that term. Far from it. It has the 6th largest economy in the world (7th in spending power) as well as being the 5th largest in both population and geographical area. So either you have a grave misconception about modern Brazil or you're deliberately using an out of date definition to arbitrarily classify a country.

[SlickSlicer]

I always liked Brazil and would not mind seeing them in the game myself. I also want to see Canada. I wonder if they will make a bts style expansion and include modern features and perhaps more modern civs like these.

[Hawk]

I just prefer King David or Solomon anyways. Aside from a lack of controversy, they have something else over Menachem Begin, Yitzchak Rabin and others. This is the fact that they are famous, which gives them bigger mass appeal (especially among amerikanz). I feel like they are just all-around better representatives.

I would prefer King David or King Solomon as well to the modern leaders, and either of these Kings are good choices.

[Guelph]

By the way, why do Brazil deserve it more? The Rio Carnival, a superb soccer team, nice beaches, hot women...? How often does Brazil make the news (other than natural resources such as the rain forest) for economic, technological, literary, artistic advances/merits, Nobel Prizes? Urm...? How is the Brazilian culture changing the world on a regular basis? Unfortunately, Brazil is a Third World country with Third World problems: huge crime rate, poverty, slums, raping natural resources, economic and political instability, high illiteracy, high birth and deaths rates etc. How and why should it qualify?

Have you considered that maybe it is just you who is poorly informed? You talk about Brazil's economic instability as you were talking about Greece - a First World country - and in the very moment it replaces UK as the 6th country by GDP. If you didn't hear it, how do you expect to hear about Brazilian literary, arts and general culture beyond the stereotypes? Political instability? Care to exemplify that?

And while I agree with you regarding the Nobel Prizes, the rest of your post seems to be suggesting that a nation's HDI must be taken into account before it is included in the game. Really, do you care that much if a civ's illiteracy rate is high? If it has slums, then it shouldn't qualify? Have you ever played as India? It has a nice gameplay. Do you want Switzerland in? I'd rather Brazil.

Anyway, I'd like to see Portugal, Brazil, Israel (its ancient iteration, hard to see modern Israel working), Sumeria, Hittites, Indonesia and Kongo in the future, it'd be great.

[carls13]

I noticed I cant vote for having a Canadian civ so I voted Inuit Special unit could be Mounties or snowmobile artillery